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Paddy Ashdown
Edward Stourton interviews Paddy Ashdown
STOURTON: You've been in the job, what, a bit more than a year now, I think. How has your thinking about the way that the … that the justice strand of things should weave itself into the mix of what's happening in Bosnia evolved over that period?
ASHDOWN: I think it's been very powerfully confirmed. I mean, I remember saying, you know, we always have the benefit of hindsight but I remember saying when the Bosnian War ended and, even more powerfully, when the Kosovo War ended, that the first thing should be the rule of law. And it's absence here for - or the absence of the priority given to it by the international community for five or six years - we made it priority number one when I came last year - has really meant that the whole of the Bosnian infrastructure from the taxi driver on the streets of Sarajevo right through to the highest in the land politically has been infected by criminality and the consequence of that is twofold. First of all, almost everything that you do to try and establish institutions of a modern effective democracy - we're doing those and we're doing them very fast now - but all of those are corrupted in the process and you find that you're left not with reliable institutions, but institutions which on the paper look like European institutions but, in fact, are people by networks of corruption. And, by the by, those networks of corruption are all interlinked. It is the same network of criminality that operates incidentally, Balkan-wide that passes around traffic women as passes around terrorists material. It's the same organisation that provides the money for the extreme nationalist parties and that ends up by funding the support networks for war criminals. But, secondly, and crucially, what this has meant in BiH is that the very large sum of money - perhaps 17 billion US dollars put into BiH over the last 7 years - a very large proportion of that has simply gone through the system and ended up in the hands of criminals.
STOURTON: And how direct is the relationship between your attempts to establish the rule of law as a matter of habit, if you like, in Bosnia - the relationship between that and what's happening in the Hague?
ASHDOWN: Very directly. I mean, this is infused with … with the networks, as I said, that the Hague is having to tackle - the criminal networks are exactly the same ones that support the war criminals. That's why, recently, we've had to take up new weapons, asset stripping … asset seizure, freezing of bank accounts etc. And all of that not only helps us to rid the criminal networks that have held this country and, indeed, the whole of the Balkans at ransom for a very long time but also tightens the area of manoeuvre in which war criminals like Karadzic are able to move and heightens, therefore, our capacity to capture them. Can I make a point here in for fear your listeners think this is a Balkan problem - it's absolutely not. When people come here and they ask me what do I do to prepare for Bosnia and Herzegovina - I say read one book, see one film. The book is E----- Andriges great classic, 'The Bridge --------- that won the noble prize but the film is 'The Third Man'. Now, do you remember the third man? It was shot in 1952 seven years after the 2nd World War, it was about Vienna - a wonderful European capital stable and brilliant today - but, at that time, absolutely infected with crime, darkness, criminal networks etc. The truth of the matter is that it's not the Balkans that are uniquely criminal, it is that war is uniquely followed, like a dark shadow, by criminality and unless you fill that space, criminality will. So it was after the 2nd World War in Europe, so it is in the Balkans today, so it will be in Iraq.
STOURTON: And, in terms of establishing the principal that actions have consequences that crime will be punished - how important is it that the Hague is seen to work?
ASHDOWN: Well it's vitally important but it's also important that the Hague is seen to be not the only answer. I mean, what is true is that you cannot have peace without justice. You cannot have a stable peace here while these monstrous crimes go un …. Undelivered - where these monstrous … the people who committed these crimes have not been brought to retribution. The bail for curse of Karadzic wondering in the mountains of the Zelamgora - between here and Montenegro in felt nation-wide - it holds up the process of stabilisation. But much more important than that - if you are a refugee woman returning to Sreboniza and you see wandering … walking the streets of nearby Zbornik, dressed in a police uniform, the very man who you know slaughtered your husband and your son - you're not likely to feel very secure. So, this business of clearing up the war criminals - it has to be done by bringing the big people to justice - the Karadic's, the Moladic's - that must be done in the Hague. Then we must go down - and that's what were about to start doing to create a domestic capacity for trying war criminals, to have the less war criminals insofar as there are lesser war criminals, tried effectively locally - you can't create stability until you've done that and then, finally, when you've done that there may, after you have tackled the great burdens or the terrible crimes, there may be role for peace and reconciliation ------- South Africa but only when that's done. And unless it's done you can't have irreversible stability.
STOURTON: There's obviously a danger that's often been commented on of this being seen as victors justice. It would be inevitably, perhaps particularly from the Serb population of Bosnia. What can you do to mitigate that? That perception?
ASHDOWN: Well there is, of course, a case of victors justice but I think the Hague has been good about that. I mean, let us remember my first visit to the Hague was to give evidence against a Croat six or seven years ago … 5 years ago. My second visit to the Hague was to give evidence against Milosovic. My third visit to the Hague was to give evidence against someone who'd run one of the prison camps here. So the Hague has been quite good at ensuring that the absolute standards of all criminality insofar that can be standards for evil are exacted against Bosnia, Croat and Serb. It may be that the greater number of people who have been brought to trial and the one's you hear about most are Serbs but, believe me, the recent arrest of Bosniac people indicted for war crimes has had a very powerful effect here and in the case of Croatia, General Bobetka who was Croat war hero now indicted for the Hague, has made it clear that those standards apply there too.
STOURTON: And what impact has the Milosovic trial had on people?
ASHDOWN: Not much now really. I mean it's … it was big news in the first days and weeks but, as many of us anticipated, it's really become a backdrop now that very few people pay much attention to. What's much more important is what we're going to do about Karodic Maladic. And here the policy which we have … which has been followed up until now - I don't criticise anybody because I know how difficult it is as a military task - has been on of waiting for the lucky break. It's been one of where we stand around below the tree which the poison fruit is on hoping that will drop into our hands. Well, we've begun a much more strenuous attack on Karadic and Maladic now by attacking not just the tree of it's branches but the roots as well. By attacking the support networks you have to remember that Karadic is not some romantic bandit - some hidak wandering in the hills - he is, in fact, the head of an extremely large network which is extremely expensive that sustains him - and it's that network we are now attacking.
STOURTON: Do you think it's fair to say that in the early days there was a lack of political will to get Karadic and Maladic?
ASHDOWN: No I really don't think there was. I mean, that is a .. . I can't comment about the very early days. There are some discussions which I've heard which said that Karadic offered to withdraw from politics and we offered not to chase him. I don't know whether that's true or not. But certainly since I have been here, I have not detected any lack of political will. The fact that Karadic has not been caught up until now is, I think, not to do with lack of military resources or political will - it's to do with the fact that the Republica Serbska who have a duty to provide information has failed to do so and secondly that our … our … our campaign against him may well have been too narrowly focused which is why we're now broadening it.
STOURTON: When do you think you'll get him?
ASHDOWN: How long is a piece of string? I can't answer that anymore than you do. But for those who sit comfortably at home criticising NATO and the military here let me just remind you that we haven't caught the Omagh bomber, we haven't caught the people who committed some of the worst outrages in Northern Ireland where we control every blade of grass that moves. Imagine trying to do that with a single man moving amongst the population that, regrettably, still regards him as a hero within one of the wildest mountain vastness' in Eastern Europe. And the place where Karadic may likely be within a hundred square miles, I suppose, is the very place that Tito didn't have difficulty hiding fifteen thousand partisans from six divisions of Germans. So, you know, it's very easy for people sitting at home in their armchairs to say why haven't you got this single man? Come out here, take a look at these mountain ranges - you begin to understand why it's not quite so easy as that. And if we haven't done it in Northern Ireland we should be a little bit more careful about criticising people for not doing it here.
STOURTON: Do you think there's any problem about the fact that it's the UN running the Hague process given that in large parts of Bosnia the UN is a very compromised organisation?
ASHDOWN: Well the UN is a compromised organisation as a military force. I have to say not as a civilian force. I mean the work that's been done by UNHCR here has been miraculous. A million people returned to their homes. It's never happened before in history. It is a huge success story for the UN but in military terms it is and perhaps even justifiably, a compromise structure. I think the answer … straight answer to you question is no. The ICTY in the Hague is not regarded as UN it's regarded as a self standing organisation and it's head - that female bulldozer - Carla Delponte, is not regarded by anybody as ineffectual.
STOURTON: You use that term 'female bulldozer' as a term of praise rather than contradiction?
ASHDOWN: I do indeed, yes. If you take Carla on, you know … I mean she's … I can't claim that everything anybody ever does is right - we all make mistakes from time to time though I'm not saying that she has in any particular way but no-one doubts her energy, no-one doubts her commitment and no-one doubts her absolute determination to get this thing done.
STOURTON: One of the things she wants to do and the tribunal wants to do - and you were leading to it a little while ago - is to bring some of the low level crimes …
ASHDOWN: … must be done
STOURTON: … for trial in Bosnia itself. How close to you are that … are you to that?
ASHDOWN: We've been working very closely with Carla and her team to put together a plan to get BIHA domestic capacity to try it's own war criminals. This is one of the essential things that must be done before the International Committee leaves here. How can we leave here until the justice system in BIH is capable of trying it's own war criminals. Now, we've got a plan for this. I'm going to the UN Security Council in October to put the plan to them. It's already received the approbation of the peace implementation council to whom I'm directly responsible, and I think it can be put into operation and I guess we could start it in a year and finish it, probably, in three. But, and it's a very big but, it's going to cost money. Now, it's not going to cost as much money as the Hague - it's going to be far cheaper on a case by case basis - but until it's up and running you have to run the Hague and the domestic system. So you don't start getting benefits for that for a long time. For a bit of time. But I've made it clear to the International Committee this can be done, we have a timetable, we have a plan but until we have the money we can't do it.
STOURTON: But it also depends on re-establishing a degree of trust between the communities, doesn't it? Which in a stage where a Serb will accept justice from a Bosnian Muslim?
ASHDOWN: I think we're coming to that. I mean, we are talking about this 2 or 3 years down the track and, self evidently, you're talking about some of the most sensitive cases. Some of the war crimes cases are literally horrific. But don't imagine that it's impossible to … I mean, already we are reformed the judges, set up the justice system in this country, we've done it at exceptional speed in the last year. But let me give you an example. It's only a matter of months since a Serb dominated court in the north of this country in Republica Serbska stood up for Muslim rights of repossession of property against the prevailing Serb establishment. It's only a matter of weeks since a Croat caught in Mostar put away the crime king of Mostar who dominated the whole of the area and was himself a Croatian for a very long stretch in jail. So, we're putting justice together in this country. It's not easy, it's not quick. It's always messy and untidy but it is being done.
STOURTON: You mentioned the possibility of some kind of South African style truth and reconciliation process. Why did that work so well in South Africa and yet in Bosnia you talk about it as really, sort of, distant dream.
ASHDOWN: Well because there weren't two hundred and fifty thousand people killed in South Africa. Thank God. There were not … I mean, I went to a … I went to a masquerade at a place called -------------- the other day in which there were probably 600 bodies - men, women and children. You know, I just ask you to think about this that arguably seven thousand killed in three days in Srebronizia - can you imagine that in Belfast? Can you imagine going, as I did the other day, to the burial of 600 bodies in Srebroniza deep in the Repulic of Serbska where the Bosniac Muslim crowd of maybe four thousand. In a Serb dominated area policed by Serb police. And not a single shot was fired, not a single incident. Can you imagine that in Belfast? So, you know, it is … it is unbelievably moving sometimes to see these things. But to ask us to move it from a position in which Bosnia lost proportionately more people than most European countries in the course of the 2nd World War to peace and reconciliation commission without the intervening stage or serious justice against those who committed these crimes would, I think, be going a little too far.
STOURTON: At the time that the idea of war crimes trials of what happened in former Yugoslavia was dreamt up most people were very sceptical about whether it … it could ever work. I mean we've obviously come an enormously long way because you got Milosovic in the Hague at the moment. In terms of the broad argument about how to handle these things, what … how has the practical experience of Bosnia developed that, do you think?
ASHDOWN: Well I think even the Hague's most ardent supporters, and I'm one - I've given evidence three times against war criminals or indicted war criminals - would say that we didn't get it perfect. I mean who should be surprised at that? It was a very brave, very important attempt. So I think there are lessons to be learnt from the process and as they are learnt we will apply them in future and it is Bosnia and the war criminals of the Balkans that's given us that chance. You know, the truth of it is that if you look at our own law - it was pretty messily assembled. Law does not spring fully formed from some academics book or from the pages of some philosopher king. Law is assembled - the body of law is assembled - in a rather messy process of precedent and mistakes and so on. So it is for our domestic law, so it will be for international law. But what is absolutely clear, whatever mistakes may have been made in the past, that we are now well on the way of assembling a body of international law that makes it an international crime judicial before world community for committing war crimes. And as that develops slowly and patiently over time I think that body of law will become established and much neater than it appears at present.
STOURTON: Do you think the International Criminal Court is the logical next step from what's happened in Bosnia?
ASHDOWN: Yes. Yes I do. I mean, no doubt about it and it brings us into some pretty difficult areas as we've seen with the United States and I understand the sensitivities there. Again, the assembly of a body of law and the institutions that deal with it has not been without contention in our own country's history - it's hardly likely to be without contention as we try to do it on an international scale today but it has to be done.
STOURTON: There is a philosophical problem there though isn't there? In a law within a state is expressing the will of a state - it's much more complicated when you try and do it at an international level.
ASHDOWN: Well it … it's founded on … absolutely all law is founded ultimately on public acceptance. That applies domestically, it's going to apply world wide as well but, I mean, I just don't think that it would have been possible to sustain a very expensive long term, rather difficult operation in the Hague for so long, if it had not been consistent with …. Acceptable to world opinion. How that's expressed, I don't know but then we're moving into a kind of different age at present where power is not just confined to the borders of a … of a nation state - power has also got a global dimension and we have to find ways of understanding and using that.
STOURTON: And it's probably true, isn't it, that the system - the broader system that you're … you suggest where groping towards cannot work without the American's support given their enormous power in the world today?
ASHDOWN: Could you have assembled the law at Magna Carta without the barons? You know, I don't particularly like that - not particularly moral position but it's a hard political fact of life. The powerful have to be brought to accept the instruments of the law on most cases or an alternative power structure has to be found that will overcome the resistance of the powerful. So it is a political fact of life which was, for instance, accepted in the United Nation's charter that the most powerful nations of the world have a right to a greater degree of influence. Again, not particularly moral, not particularly tidy ethically but we live in a practical world in which political power is an important factor we have to take into account. So the answer to your question is probably yes.
STOURTON: Paddy Ashdown, thanks very much indeed.
Ends
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