In conversation with William Mager from See Hear

We spoke to See Hear series producer William Mager about his career at the BBC and his work producing the BBC's flagship magazine programme for the deaf community, now in its 35th series.The following interview was conducted with a British Sign Language interpretator and is published here in full.

Who are you and what you do at the BBC?

I’m William Mager. Just so you know, my surname sounds like ‘lager’ with an M. I’m series producer for See Hear, which is the BBC’s flagship magazine programme for the deaf community. We are currently making our 35th series.

My first ever job was in the BBC. I started as a new media trainee back in November 2000. I worked from Bush House in Central London. I remember my first day clearly. I was waiting in reception for someone to come along and meet and greet me. Next to me was Wendy Richard, the actress who played Pauline Fowler in EastEnders. She was eating a sandwich. I sat there and thought: I’ve arrived. I’ve made it. I’m at the BBC.

What attracted you to the BBC?

Back in 2000 the BBC made a big push to make the organisation more diverse across a range it various different platforms and programmes. It was an incredibly exciting time to join. I went to work for all sorts of different programmes whilst I was on the traineeship, including Top of the Pops and BBC News. I got a full time job as a researcher for Children’s BBC. I eventually found my way to See Hear.

That move from working on mainstream programmes to a deaf programme had a really profound effect on me. What you need to understand at this point about me is that up until that point I had no real deaf awareness myself - even though I was deaf myself and had been for all of my life, I had no idea of what it meant to be deaf. All my family and friends were ‘hearing’. I grew up in a hearing environment. The first time I met a deaf person signing was when I came to work at the BBC. It was only when I started working on See Hear that I really started to learn sign language, about deaf culture and, as a result developed my own deaf identity.

In a really weird way I think See Hear has actually educated me about deaf sign language and deaf culture. I’ve tried to continue that spirit of education for anyone who watches or indeed works on the programme.

What do you mean by deaf identity?

OK. I’ll use myself as an example. When I was diagnosed as being deaf my Mum made a decision to educate me, how to read, write, speak and lip-read. She didn’t want my deafness to define who I was. She wanted me to be Billy first, and deaf second. And I can see why she did that. If she hadn’t have done it that way I wouldn’t be the person I am today. She taught me one-to-one for two or three years at home, just myself and her. What that meant was that I didn’t really understand that I was a deaf person per se – I grew up like a hearing person. It was only when I got to 21 and I went into a pub full of deaf people where everyone was using sign language that I realised, ‘this is what I’ve been missing.’

Was there an emotional response when you discovered that?

Yes, definitely. I realised what I had been missing for a long time and what I’d been looking for for a long time. And also, that where’s I met my wife. There was a definitely an emotional response.

Why is See Hear important for the deaf community in the UK?

See Hear’s role has changed a lot since it first started in 1981. When it first started deaf people had no access to anything. There were no mobile phones, no email, no texting and there was no subtitles or signing on TV. Deaf people were removed from what was going on in everyday life. See Hear back then it was like home from home for the deaf community – deaf presenters talking in their language, telling them stories which were relevant to them.

Now, the situation is very, very different. Deaf people have never had it so good. Deaf people can use Facebook, video cameras and the likes of Facetime. There are a lot of things that really help them with day-to-day life. But, I think we still need programmes for deaf because if you look at the news, mainstream programmes, rarely do you see them dealing with issues that are really key to the deaf community.

Also, I think its important that sign language continues to being seen on television. I don’t mean just ‘in vision’ in the corner, but actually a presenter presenting who is deaf themselves and using their language to the audience receiving it in their language. Portrayal is so important too – for me, if a hearing person watches See Hear they might learn something and realise something about deaf people which will help the community go forward. I’ve been amazed at how many people watch See Hear.

For example, Erika and I we were at the Royal Television Awards recently where she won the ‘FLYING FUTURES’ Talent Award. Two of us went to collect the award and celebrate. There was a man that walked past us outside the event and stopped us to congratulate us when he saw Erika had an award in her hand. “What did you win that for?” said the stranger. Erika explained she worked on a programme called See Hear and the man said, “Gosh, See Hear! I remember that programme. Didn’t Clive Mason used to present that? Does he still present the programme?” We explained that he does still from time to time. What surprised us was learning that non-deaf people to know about See Hear but they do, and that’s great.

I also remember being in a taxi once, when the driver said, “My parents are deaf and they always made me watch See Hear.” It was really fantastic to hear that the programme is out there and part of society.

You mentioned earlier that portrayal was really important for the deaf community. Is there a need for sign language to be part of mainstream programmes? Perhaps dramas? How far off are we from that, do you think?

There have been dramas before. Back in 2002 or 2003 there were two deaf drama series on TV – one was BBC Two’s Switch. And on Channel 4 there was a drama series called Rush. Both dramas included sign language characters.

Generally speaking, most deaf people would like to see more signing characters in mainstream drama. We’ve tried it before, but it wasn’t as successful as we would have liked. For example, in EastEnders, Phil Mitchell’s son Ben had a hearing aid when he first arrived and he was deaf. As the character got older and the actor changed and the hearing aid disappeared. There have been some brilliant one-off dramas including deaf character – Soundproof and The Silence. Both of them were huge with deaf characters in leading roles. But for me, the ways that the characters were portrayed was not quite right - there’s still a lot of work to be done in this area.

What is the best way of portraying a deaf character in a drama?

This weekend we have a celebration of deaf culture and the deaf community. The weekend is all about portrayal. I’m running a session which consists of clips of the various different ways deaf characters have been portrayed. They’re rarely portrayed well.

For me the best portrayal is when the character is written by a deaf person and it’s acted by a deaf person. But, the deaf person also needs to be a good actor as well because I see some films where they’ve got a deaf person and their acting is absolutely awful.

So, really, the important thing is you need to get more people behind the camera not in front of the camera. It’s very easy for a hearing production team to say ‘oh, we’ll just grab deaf person and hope for the best’. But, if you have key people behind the camera, whatever happens in front of the camera it will be more realistic and more appropriate for the audience. Change the word deaf for black or female, what would you do? Would you make a film about all-women characters made by an all-male crew. You wouldn’t do that.

During this interview, we’ve been surprised about the differences between the way we communicate as ‘hearers’ and how clearly deaf people communicate in comparison. Why do you think that is?

I think deaf people are really good communicators. They’re really good at eye contact and really good at listening. We really try to listen to what you’re really saying. I think hearing people can learn a lot from deaf people about how best to communicate – waiting until people have finished speaking, learning how to respond to a question appropriately and learning how to have a real conversation and see how it works. People who have come to work at See Hear, a lot of them start learning sign language. You see how the way they communicate changes: they become better listeners, better communicators and better people. 



Deaf people who are signing are better storytellers. Is that the case?

Deaf people need to think about placement. For example, using 3D placement. So, if I’m describing a story as I have been today, I’m often explaining where I am in relation to the action, describing the people in relation to me and others in the story. And often, I’m really role-shifting, performing the story to bring it alive. I don’t think I’m amazing at it, but there are other signers who are like watching a film. It’s quite amazing to watch.

If you think about it - sign language is a bit like a storyboard. For example a deaf person might talk about a bridge and a man walking across a bridge. In a film, the grammar would demand the viewer sees a bridge first and then a man walking across it. It’s the same with signing. We have to think about the order of the things described. That’s another reason why so many deaf people work in television. They have to think in that visual way – deaf people have that in them. It’s innate!

William Mager is Series Producer, See Hear