Bryan
My father is from Jersey. If the Island was French I would not be here so I say it was the right choice.
PS I would love to be able to retire to Jersey but can't afford it but I can afford to retire to France !!!
Joe
In my opinion the channel islands have all the importance of a sqashed turnip.There is only two countries that make up Britain and thats England and Scotland,Through the inginuity and brilliance of these two diverse cultures a great nation was formed.I can't think of any major accompishments by the Welsh,Irish,Channel Islanders and Manx.
Randy
Can channel islanders get French nationality ?
kirsty
its big and tall
kate thompson
i would like to go to the eiffle tower to see loads of people and see some friends
Shev
Having lived in France, England, and Jersey, I have to say that although the States are feeble in many ways, I have to prefer their system to many aspects of both the French and British governments - our queen is really our duke, our prime minister is not really, thank god, our prime minister, and we don't have an all powerful presidente. In many ways the laws in France are more retrogressive than in England, and any of you with romantic ideas about right-on pro-Euro politicians instead of a lapdog for a leader, I suggest you live in France for a while. After your first few public searches, you will thank your stars that there is a little island where they are too incompetent to implement proper laws.
john
after reading up about your relationship with i now think your are better of remaining the way you and i am sorry if i offended anyone and to dan i never said you should became irish and yes you would have offened alot of irish people with your remark. irish people have are faults as do jersey and british people i just said you should try to gain more independence . dutch and other peoples are no angles themselfs
Adrian
If we had gone French we would not be having an abundance of over priced flats built by a certain non Jersey development firm. French buildings are much more pleasing.
dan
I hope that John isn't trying to insinuate that we'd actually be better off as Irish than British...I have nothing against Irish folk, but I'd rather Scandinavian or Dutch than Irish.
pete
John : The relationship between the CI and the UK today cannot be compared to the relationship between GB and Eire during the occupation period. I believe that most Islanders are happy with their nationality status.
Michel
To John : If you have a problem with the Islands being British, you shouldn't be here...
roddy
In response to John, many islanders would simply rather not exist than not be British; indeed,if the islands government were to seek independence, many of us would simply leave. I'm quite happy to be British and I don't want that to change
john
i am irish and after being under british controll for 800 years we have never looked back part of me cannot understand why the channel islands wish to remain british.
roddy
In response to Rachel, I decided not to teach my chilren the language that my parents taught me in order to ease their integration. Also, as it is a minority tongue, without the same importance of French and German, it would not be as useful to them.
Rachel
Roddy, don't you think that by not teaching your children Portuguese that they are losing out? Surely just by learning the language they won't feel alienated? Wouldn't it encourage them to be good europeans as you are?
hmmm
errr, lets not think about it aye, that like asking what would of happend if yanks were smart? things happen, and for us they turned out very well,
roddy
In response to Etranger, identity is something which is in constant evolution.
It is unquestionable that Islanders should take pride in their history, which naturally entails an understanding of the island's past. However, this should not in any way impede islander's ability to assert their Britishness.
Britishness should not be confused with Englishness; Islanders are not and never will be English.But there are naturally psychological and cultural similarities between
Islanders and people in England, especially in the South of England.
The vestiges of the island's Normand-French past are easily found in its law code, body politic, in the genetic stock of the people, in place-naming etc. But these vestiges tend to weaken over time as the island modernises, which entails changes to the law code and possibly system of govt, among others.
Given the overwhelming presence of Anglo-Saxon culture on the island, and the difficulty that most islanders have in understanding and relating to French language and culture, most Islanders will not feel a stronger sense of affinity towards France than Britain.
I wish to assure all of you who have taken part in this fascinating debate that I am neither anti-French nor xenophobic in general : in speak French in France,German in Germany,Dutch in Holland - I would therefore describe myself as a good European...Nevertheless, the future of the island does not lie in a collective sense of nostalgia for the island's Normand past;rather, Jersey's future identity will depend on Islanders' own idiosyncratic type of Britishness that is in constant evolution.
To my mind, the only Islanders who could possibly look back 900 years to Normandy for a lost sense of nationhood are the Jerriais, especially those who can trace their genealogy back to Normand times. But even this creates a problem : Only a few hundred people can actually speak Jersey-French,which means that,despite identifying with Normandy historically, lack of fluency in the dialect(or even standard French) constitutes a serious impediment to a deep pyscho-cultural sense of identification.
I have no doubts that it is not incorrect for people to be proud of their roots, but I do not believe that people should remain shackled to their roots when they actually possess the citizenship of different nations. In a nutshell, I don't believe that the Jerriais should be any more dependent on their Normand heritage than Islanders of immigrant origin, for example.
In my case, being of Portuguese origin, I decided not to teach my children to speak the foreign tongue which my parents taught me as child. The reason for this is because I want my children to feel fully integrated in the place where they were born.
In conclusion, I believe that we should live in a fully integrated society where people feel part of a single, integrated community. When people feel obssessed by where their ancestors come from, divisions are created. To my mind the best way to mitigate these divisions is for islanders to feel collectively British, albeit in their own peculiar way.
Etranger
The person with no past is a person with no identity. For Channel Islanders to deny their cultural links with France and to go around flaunting a stylised and narrow-minded Englishness is to adopt a false paradigm. It's just not convincing to the outside world.
I'm not suggesting that Jerseymen should all start wearing berets and stripy shirts - this is just as false. But let's put a stop to these dumb statements about the French smelling nasty, looking dowdy and having no sense of humour.
Just for the record a gorgeous Frenchwoman - who smelled wonderful the last time I was in close contact - sent me a hilarious e-mail the other day. And she understands British humour, too. I can think of worse neighbours.
Ben
If we were French we would also have lost in the rugby world cup semi-final and would'nt be the world champs. Anyway at least were not Swiss.
darren
if we were french we'd be celebrating after the opening match of euro 2004.
paul
Here's yet another way to complicate this debate!
What would you describe as your nationality?
1)British
2)Channel Islander
3)Jersey
4)Normand
5)Normand-French
6)French
It would be interesting to guage people's thoughts and comments on this - with a poll perhaps?
Adam
Oh yeah and if we were french we wouldn't be having this debate as we we would all be too busy commiting adultery
Adam
If we were french we would all absoloutely stink and everybody would hate us.
We would be intolerably arogant and what is this about style. All the french people i have met al look like they shop at charity shops and work on farms.
I know i would rather have a sense of humour than an inflated sense of self worth.
Etranger
If Jersey had opted to be French in 1204 all the car number plates would have a "50" on them. The Americans would probably have bombed the island into oblivion in 1944 - this is what happened to other outstanding pockets of German resistance. But at least the surviving Jerseymen would not have the unfortunate stereotype of being like 1950-ish Middle-Englanders. More like stroppy Norman peasants.
A.M. Bellows
The wartime occupation would certainly have been different, with probably puppet French rulers in place by the Germains, less of the "Fortress Islands", more trade links to the French mainland maintained. Of course, after D-Day, things could have been very much worse, no impetus in Britain for the Vega, and an Island starved into surrender.
Tim - Guernsey
It dosent matter if your French or British. You'd still be the inferior island to Guernsey you always have been.
Steve
FACT:
Soap sales would fall
Roddy
Andy - thanks for your comments. If there's ever a "Jersey is British" campaign, I hope your elected its spokesperson. It is unquestionable that Islanders are proud to be Islanders, but when it comes to a sense of nationality, let's face it : we're British and very good at it. Now, if you'll all excuse I need to get back to this morning's copy of the Independent, together with that cornish pastie and that pint of bitter - yep, long live British eccentricity...
Andy
Isn't the island a personal possession of The Crown? i.e. the Queen of.... ENGLAND!? We speak English, have the Pound in out pockets (if the States haven't taken it all from us), have British TV & Radio, phones on the UK system (01534 area), Her Maj's likeness on our stamps, UK standards in all fields of life,
UK roadsigns, UK white/yellow numberplates, imperial measures, etc etc.
The minority obsession with Frenchness seems utterly absurd to me - the French rubbish in the States (prayers, Pour/Contre etc), insisting on naming new roads in French (how twee), trying to force a nearly dead language onto our already overloaded kids, etc.
Get over it already, we're BRITISH!
Pour? Contre? Why isn't ABSTAIN in French?!
Brad
Local government is to blame and it does not have anything to do with being associated with Britain. If you think getting things done here is bad then try dealing with the reams of red taped beauracracy, and the ridiculously high taxes that can be found in France. Its not as good as you think!!
paul
To Jerseyman - a very pertinent comment! It's a sad think that people are forced to leave their home bcos os socio-economic and even political determinants.
I myself left the island to study at Kent University. When I returned I had noticed that things had gone downhill - the parks and beaches were almost devoid of tourists. Fort Regent( now to close?!) looked like a ghost town.
The Inn on the Park to be transformed into condominiums...
As for Caeser's Palace, that went a long time ago. I heard that the Lido de France is to close down.
A first basic house in St. Helier can set local folk back £250k!
Yes, it isn't difficult to understand why islanders are leaving!
As for myself, I would like to return to the Island but I'm too scared bcos of what the local govt is doing, plus I wouldn't be able to afford the rent on a decent flat. As for a mortgage, it isn't even worthwhile commenting on that possibility...
Jerseyman
I think we could not be any worse off if we had stayed French. How many people are leaving Jersey and moving to France because they are fed up with the way the Island is going.
Dan
To Montfort : Given that I shall be supporting England, not France, in Euro 2004, is it alright if I think of myself as a real Jersey bean rather than a crapaud?
paul
To Montfort : May I assume that you are Jerriais bcos you will be supporting France in Euro 2004? We had a kid in school of Italain extraction. If there was a match between England and Italy, he wanted the Italians to win...oh well, that's multiculturalism for you - some people are so proud of their roots that they forget more important things.
Michel
To Chris 2 :
Thanks for your clarification.
There is nothing wrong islanders priding themselves with their own identity, which is separate from any other region in the British Isles - on this point we agree.
However, if we spoke French, not English, psychologically and culturally we would not be British and this I feel would be detrimental to us. I 'm quite happy being an islander but I'm also proud to be British.
It would be interesting to know what other islanders feel about this point. One way to achieve this would be for a poll to organised on one simple question : "Which would you rather be British or French?"
IT would be fascinating to guage public opinion on this matter,bcos this isn't the kind of conversation topic that crops up every day, but it would be a curious indicator as to the sense of nationhood that islanders have collectively.
Bean
I think you will have found that Lillian Thuram would of stopped any hope of Le Saux playing for France.
Chris
Yeah I was thinking about that. Reunion is the island. Are you sure the British just got rid of them, there are still place like Monserrat who are British, but serve no economic benefit to the UK.
A lot of the Brish colonies went because of political uprising by the locals (America, India) or through mutual understanding for independance (Australia, New Zealand, Singapore) or via the end of an unrenewable lease (Hong Kong).
I think Gibraltar could be next, I know they have demonstrated how proud they our of their British heritage, but it is a hot potato (as well as an illegal occupation) and the issue does get raised every so often with the Spanish stating they clearly want some form of control.
Montfort
To Chris 2
By the way, Maritius is not French. It used to be British, but is now independant. You may be thinking of Réunion, which is just 100 miles west of it. They are fully French. Unlike the British islands, they did not get rid of them when it became politically and financially inconvenient.
Chris 2
Pete they have. Take a look at the quick pole that has been up since this topic was raised!
Chris "
Chris 2, your Chris and i'm Chris 2. Hope that makes sense! Do you not think that if Jersey was alligned to France that it would not be alligned at all but amalgamated into France instead and just be one of a couple of islands off Normandy with no independance? A bit like the Isles of Scilly to Cornwall or the Isle of Wight to Hampshire. They would of lost a lot of their identity anyway.
To Bean
It was Graem Le saux's choice to play for England. He could have played for France (he was elligible) and he would have won the world cup and euro cup, but he did not. I support him as a Jerseyman, but irrespective of what team he plays for.
To Dan
Dan, if you don't even know what a Crapaud is, then you are hardly qualified to somment on things of this nature. A crapaud is the nickname for a Jersey person (just like Guernsey people are donkeys, and Alderney lapins.
pete
It would be a great idea for this website to conduct a survey on whether islanders feel that we would have been better off or not had we chosen Normandy in 1204. The results of the poll could be divulged on the anniversary of the D-Day landing.
Chris 2
To Michel. I acknowledge your comments. However, you seem to have drawn a number of assumptions from what I have written. I would like to point out that firstly, I was not suggesting that islanders without Norman anscestory were merely outaiders and therefore not 'real islanders'. My points were not concerned with what makes someone 'local' or a true 'Crapaud'.
My points were really intended to highlight the fact that the Norman culture in Jersey is something that is more often than not ignored and its presence could be influential in differentiating the Island from elsewhere and constructing identity and pride in Jersey.
An alignment with France may reinforce Norman links. Islanders would be speaking French (possibly alongside Jerriais?!) but would also, like most French people, have a sound understanding of English. (it is interesting to note that many islanders do not have a sound understanding of French).
There can be a readiness for Jersey people to associate themselves with England and not with 'Jersey' and the things that make the island unique (for example its language and Norman traditions among many other things).
My point is really that the multi-cultural inhabitants of the Island including the Portugeuse, the Polish, the Irish and the Scottish etc don't associate themselves with England but can accept Jersey on its own merits and its culture and its sense of place as being unique and independant from England.
michel
To Chris :
You appear convinced that islanders should look to France for their cultural and psychological roots; but this approach contains some problems :
Firstly, you are not allowing for the fact that island's identity is in constant evolution. The process of strengthening of Anglo-Saxon culture and weaking of Norman culture was buttressed circa 100 years ago with the influx of mainlanders who came for the sunshine, many of whom stayed over. Then the economic ties with the mainland were immensely strenthened in the 60s and 70s due to the island's position as a major financial centre, which brought a lot of prosperity to the island.
Secondly, if Jersey's real identity is linked to Normandy, not England, doesn't this mean that only islanders who can trace their ancestry back to Normand time are real islanders. If this is the case then surely islanders of Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Italian, Portuguese, Maltese, Greek, Chinese, etc are merely outsiders with local passports?
roddy
The notion that the island would retain a separate identity from France had we decided to remain a part of Normandy in 1204 needs some careful thinking.
During the Napoleonic period, the French government had an overtly centralising educational policy. Napoleon undertsood the importance of linguistic homogeneity and the potential for separatism if existing minority cultures were allowed to thrive in specific regions of the republic. The result of this policy was, for example, the obliteration of Provencal as a separate tongue from standard French.
Had Jersey remained linked to Normandy, it is unlikely that the Jerriais Norman-French dialect would have surivived better; on the contrary, the ties with Mainland Normandy would have meant that the language spoken on the island would suffered an evolution that would have been concomitant to the evolution of the French language elsewhere in France.
Maureen
I agree with Paul
Chris 2
To other chris - The question I would raise (the same as my earliers point)is would Jersey have been able to hold on to its culture and independance under France. I say this because if you look at the Frech colonial islands like Mauritius, they are run as part of France not as a separate entity. Without independance, the supposed cultural identity we have lost would of surely been lost anyway and become part of a whole French identity, not a similar but different one.
Chris 2
But England has its own identity which is different to Britishness which is based on the colonial legacy of the British empire. To be english means to be a descent of the ancient britons, romans, saxons, vikings and of course the normans. England shares this common link with us, because the last people to successfully invade England were the Normans.
jean-jacques
we would be having a more equitable, civilised and fulfilling way of life
Chris
The association with England has in many ways been detrimental for Jersey.
The Anglicisation of the Island has unfortunately meant a loss of heritage, culture and of course language which are intrinsic constructs of the uniqueness of the Island.
It is a pity that so much of the authentic heritage and culture of the Island has been ignored, lost and replaced through the alignment of the Island with England.
If one were to look at the example of the Celtic countries such as Wales and Scotland, there is a disassociation by these nations with Britain. These nations have their own sense of identity which is in no way 'British'. Jersey is similar in that respect.
As such Jersey, historically, traditionally and culturally is not British but French. Norman ancestory and links with the 'Norman mainland' would be more 'cohesive' if Jersey was linked with France and therefore enabling the protection and enhancement of Jersey's unique sense of place and cultural identity.
Jersey's heritage is intrinsically related more to that of Normandy and France. Not to be aligned to France is ignoring the true and authentic identity of Jersey. On this basis I agree with Montford and paul.
Honest Lennie
We wouldn't have English hierarchy in the Gendarmes.
Chris
We would not have our own government and independance thats for sure. The French run their own territories like a part of France, even places as far a way as Mauritius are run from Paris and they oblidge to the same laws and when elections arise they vote like any other French for the president of France. Jersey would most likely now have been run as a part of Normandy (just like the past).
Claremont
"Would the islands have still been a target during WW2?" Now that is just a silly statement especially with the anniversary of D-day. France was occupied, why would Jersey not have been?
Laurent
Twenty years ago I would have said 'no way' but it seems since the early eighties Jersey has either stagnated or gone backwards, whilst the pace of change and improvement has quickened in France (and most countries)and now I can only wish we were French ruled - a sad reflection on our politicians who have supervised our downfall
Claremont
Links and associations with the english speaking world. Don't just think stuffy Britain, think Australia, think South Africa, think New Zealand, think alot of Canada. Think about the Commonwealth and begrudgingly USA. With France we would have France, french speaking Canada (not too large), a few north african countries and a few strewn islands (nothing wrong with that of course!).
Rachel
Less bowing and scraping to Parliament and the Monarchy. A bridge or proper boat service would have been operational for years. Would the islands have still been a target during WW2?
Rob
If only ...... more style - less yobs on the street - and politicians who have an ounce of common sense
dan
To Montfort : You're comments strike me as illogical. As a Jerseyman, you are a British subject, and therefore it would make more sense to support a team that contains elements with the same nationality, i.e. one of the British teams, England especially given geography and psycho-cultural similarities. Sorry, but what is a crapaud?
Bean
Loyalty to the crown or Jack Chirac? Jersey can have the queen as a head of state and ignore Tony Blair but if we were French we would have to have Chirac as the head of state, would out independance errode because of this?
Bean
So did you also support France when Grame le Saux or even Matt le Tissier played for England?
Montfort
While it is true that Jersey enjoys a unique status as concerns its Britishness, I think that all too often it has too readily repudiated its French links and tried to be overly English. We refer to the UK as the "mainland", but look east from Gorey, you can clearly see the Normandy coast line. I have never seen the UK coast from Jersey. We are British, but why do we so readily support England as our "default" team in any major tournament? Why not Scotland or Wales (were they ever to make it through)? Personally, I will be supporting France in Euro 2004, because I am a true Jerseyman. A crapaud - not a bean.
paul
more kissing - less hand shakes
bouling - not bowling
more wine - less beer
more romanticism - less pragmatism
more impulsiveness - less cool
more improvisation - less organisation
more catholicism - less protestantism
more openness to Continental Europe - less tacit acceptance of US culture
more social democracy - less laissez faire
more cars made by French multinationals - less cars made by US multinationals
more fish - less meat
a more relaxed attitude to sex
