Wednesday 21 October 2009

I think if you look at voting patterns, then it's not "Britain's white working class". Scotland's white working class has shown no sign of voting BNP - not that they're somehow "better" than their English counterparts, but because all political parties here are a bit more to the left than their UK counterparts, and there's a real civic nationalist party which has been promulgating a non-ethnic inclusive nationalism for the last 50 years.

how somali pirates have brought back the fish off kenya

https://www.youtube.com/user/journeymanpictures#p/u/6/kP5K6n5C6jQ

I think you are correct, oldnat.
I'm not sure why that is not understood down here in England. I can tell you that there is virtually zero coverage of the Scottish Government's policies and progress in the English media and, speaking from my own experience, there is little curiosity amongst English people to truly understand the issues.
Sad.

anyone want a good laugh?

see boris answer questions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nfmbp/Mayors_Question_Time_19_10_2009/

its panto.

A MATTER OF LEGITIMACY AND HEARTLESSNESS.

Blair's 'certainty' (courtesy of a higher entity) and a stupid Parliament, gave legitimacy to our armed invasion of Afghanistan. Blair was further legitimised by the belated certainty of Lord Goldsmith and a bedazzled IDS. We can all see the 'true colours' of Blair, now, as he expensively swaggers the world; the Goldsmith enigma has yet to be illuminated, and as for IDS, well . . .

Turning to Nick Griffin: I sense he has a lot in common with the above bringers-of-strife. He likes to wield power with a Manichean simplicity, and is not bothered how many of 'them' are discomforted if 'our' situation is deemed improved. The main difference seems to me to be that Griffin's real agenda is close to his rhetoric, whereas Blair's words never had much to do with his true intent.

Is it REALLY more honourable to bomb people, heartlessly, in their own country than to deport them, heartlessly, from our own? How does that work General?

#62 from mimpromptu
ecolizzy
Don't you think you should be more careful when you talk about your children, whatever the situation you have found yourself in? Especially that this is a public forum with access open to all.
As for myself, since childhood fate has been dishing out for me more than a fair share of negative enforcement, both emotionally and financially, what with Poland having been so badly damaged during World War II and members of the family either killed or seriously suffering from health problems. I may be experiencing wonderful moments of happiness these days but this has been a long struggle indeed to be able to do what I'm doing now, apart from having been lucky to come across people who understand and support me rather ethan insisting on teasing me out of my wits by their obnoxious and vile 'actions'.
Anyway, I wish you a happy cooperation with jj but be careful for it not to affect your children, that's my advice as this may affect you negatively in later life making you feel unhappy about yourself.
mim

3. HoldThemToAccount
"there is little curiosity amongst English people to truly understand the issues."

I'm not really surprised at that. People here have little interest in London issues since we aren't affected. The difference, I suppose, is that London items are still given some prominence in "UK" media programming, so we have some awareness of them.

"Tonight we debate what has happened to the white working class"

Well for the few who might watch NN and not JJ?

Last week I visited a family in West Bromwich. I'm use to scenes of deprivation but the level that I witnessed almost left me in tears. It was with-in half a mile of The pUblic 'arts' building that has cost many millions - don't know maybe more than 60 millions. What happened was delusional thinking and repulsiveness of the upper middle class that was allowed to go un-checked by common sense.

un-checked by common sense
'insight is their want'

For all the talk about Labour having abandoned their former supporters, it is more likely to be dissatisfied working class Tories that now support the BNP.

White working class groups (and unions) demonstrated against immigration dating back to the 1960s and were the most vocal supporters of Enoch Powell.
Thatcher and Tebbit attracted their vote away from the NF in the late 1970s and during the 1980s.

Labour’s strength was in the trade union movement organised in the industrial sector, mines, docks etc.The decline of both the old industries and the strength of the trade unions over the past 40 years resulted in the present day rump of white working class; many facing long term unemployment, are low skilled and low educated and so on. Labour had to reinvent itself and appeal to the middle class in order to maintain a realistic chance of electoral success. Today much of the Trade Union movement represents white collar workers and unlikely to think the WWC are natural allies.

It’s hardly surprised this white working class rump now feel marginalised; I doubt Cameron (or Clegg) now appeals to them any more than Brown does.
To be honest I doubt the white working class appeal to the modern day Tory party any more than they do to the New labour leadership; neither party are likely to instinctively want to reach out to them.

As long as the BNP appeal mainly to the resentments of this [wwc] group then it will never be more than a fringe party. But reconnecting with this rump of white working class remains a challenge, for the mainstream parties, the Tories in particular.

There's no such thing as the working class. What you mean is poor people, those earning a low income or quite often unemployed. So why don't you call them that and stop pussy-footing around.
The BNP members and supporters don't necessarily come from the poor sections of society in any case, they are just as likely to belong to the group of those who are earning around the national average, somewhere in the region of £25,000 per year.

we live in a very demoralised country right now we witness daily the incompetence of bankers except were their own salaries are concerned and we heave millions on the dole. It is probabaly five or six million with the government manipulating the figures yet we are a very wealthy country and we are so divided. I was in London yesterday and you see prices in Harrods food hall that are so breathtaking you think you are living on another planet so it is alarming to know that people actually pay those exhorbitant prices so it is OK for some. A walk around the House of Commons with security everywhere and demonstrations on every corner you wonder with all the trouble in the world why do they pick this small island to demonstrate all that is wrong with their piece of the world. In our time honoured ability to be tolerant to all political opinion I suppose that is a noble attribute but I do wish we would address the home grown problems before we become internmational lawyers. With a postal strike due to inconvenience millions we have the arch conspiritor Mandelson with his fingerprints all over the trashing of a deal. I do hope he is proud of himself.

will vat on food to pay off their debt be the bankers christmas present for the public?

WHO BENEFITS FROM A BRITAIN OF NUKES, WAR AND PARTHENOGENETIC MONEY?

Our Globopoly-playing 'leaders' just want to rule the waves, in terms of bogus values. All parties are trumpeting caring credentials, yet they tax the consumption of killer therapeutics, consumed to cope with the pain of being British, in a country where everything is now fun except entertainment - which is vicious.

What benefit a leader if he sit at the world's top gaming table while his cash-proles lose access to all that is agreeable and worthwhile in life?

ANARCHISM = ABSENCE OF GOVERNANCE

"Jackie Long has been to the town of Blurton to examine claims that Britain's white working class have been left behind, allowing the BNP and far-right groups to flourish."

So long as you keep misclassifying the problem, it's things are just going to continue getting worse. The right-wing parties are, despite assertions that they're 'centrist' but different, in practice they're all right-wing libertarian (anarchist/anti-statist)!

Here's where the problem is:- we don't have a left-wing party anymore. That ended with the demise of Old Labour in the 80s - at the time we were busy vilifying the USSR. British politics is now in a mess as is American and European, so the public isn't interested anymore as there isn't anything substantive to choose between the three main parties.

The BNP just exposes the fact that the three main (libertarian/anarchistic) parties are basically all the same. None of them like that. Its working/underclass appeal is that it's simple and says it will do something (it's not clear what). They can't tell what the other parties positively do in the way of governance.

Be honest - can you?

I'm not sure that it's just the white working class that may vote BNP. I have met plenty of people who are not working class who are going to vote BNP simply because they cannot stand the thought of "more of the same" from the mainstream parties. People I meet are sick of being bossed about, dictated to and penalised by a corrupt political class who have completely lost touch with the electorate.

Draconian enforcement of thousands of petty laws, ceding power to the EU without any mandate and spitting in our faces whilst stealing from us to fund their lives of luxury are the main complaints and people do not see the possibility of change if they vote for any of the main parties. Look at the way the political class is attacking and demonising the BNP, it's pretty similar to the way they've been attacking us for the last 12 years as they villify us for virtually anything we do, criminalise us for petty misdemeanours and call us all paedophiles unless we give them sixty quid. The people have more in common with the BNP than they do with the political class.

Even though I don't like their deportation and race ideas I will vote for them because they might at least get the state off my back.

As usual the politicians have got it wrong,the mainstream parties have been ripping the electorate off for years,to the point where they feel disenfranchised,so what do they expect.Broken Britain is down to the politicians,no one else,if Parliament doesn't hold people in regard,then the people will relply ,"why should I be bothered".hencr broken Britain.

every discussion is filled with non working class people,authors ,directors of human rights groups etc.What about the workers,

THE PROBLEM FOR MOST PEOPLE NOW IS JOBS FOR BRITISH PEOPLE THIS RECESSION HAS NOW FOCUSED THE ATTENTION ON IMMAGRATION AND EUOPEAN WORKERS COMING INTO THE COUNTRY. THE BORDERS SHOULD BE CLOSED TO ALL FORIEGN WORKERS AND WE SHOULD PULL OUT OF EUROPE. MY UNDERSTANDING IS 40.000 MILLION A DAY GOES TO EUROPE WELL I SAY I SAY CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME AND WHEN PEOPLE FROM THIS COUNTRY ARE NOT SLEEPING IN THE STREETS AND IN OTHER PEOPLES HOUSES. AND CHILDEN ARE GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION KEEP THE BORDRS CLOSED AND SPEND THE MONEY ON PEOPLE HERE

My company has recently spent 6 weeks working at a Sure Start in Kent. The majority of the women using the Sure Start service were from outside the UK, could speak little or no English and were never accompanied by a male partner.
If the Government are building these centers to serve the local community do they mean the local European community because it seems to be doing a great job.

Each of the main parties has promised at some stage to alter society so that it is more inclusive, and yet both the Tories and Labour have done the reverse.
Sure Start - despite its original aims it has become a centre from which a mixture of services run part time shops taking what was once the remit of social services. All the jobs go to middle class workers with no genuine understanding of the problems they are dealing with.
The justice system - here we have seen the introduction of checks that now make it neer on impossible for anyone with a conviction from gaining work, even when their convictions should be deemed as spent. Amazingly many alien workers cannot undergo the same tests as their history is held elsewhere. As far as I am aware about 25% of man have a conviction, and this figure is much higher within the lower classes.
Housing - right by me is a house paid for out of some European budget for aliens. Each family get to reside in it for up to two years with all appliances and bills paid. Once the two years are up alternative housing is sought for them through private lettings. After five years the families can then gain council housing. It seems that the government are massaging the methodology of housing placement and with it the figures.
Employment - I am now down to earning under £6K. Each job i get pays less than the one before, and yet I strive to carry on. My degree, diploma, certificates are all seemingly worthless. Most of the jobs I have been for do end up going to alien workers, though why this might be the case I do not know. I would certainly hate to think it was because they were paid less.
I could go on to write a novel or two, but the short of it is that I do not feel included in what the mainstream of society have or more importantly have access to. I suspect that this is likely the same for many, white, brown, black or green.

Good report on white working class people from Blurton tonight, and then a panel of earnest middle-class men talking about "the working classes" as if it were a sociology seminar. It was patronising. The only person who self-identified as working class seemed to be in a Spanish tax exile! Why can't we have a panel of articulate working class people? Where were the people who truly identified with working people? This panel was clearly more Melvyn Bragg than Billy Bragg.

I draw the following extract from an advertisement for an artist to work in a school in the West Midlands published by Arts Council England's "Arts Jobs" e-bulletin. I cannot think of a clearer illustration of the cultural attitudes that drive communities to vote for the BNP.

"The school is in an extremely mono-cultural area of high deprivation, and though outside this enclave, there is a wealth of cultural diversity, our children are very rarely exposed to this rich resource. Consequently their world view is a rather isolated one. The area has a BNP councillor."

I have just watched the debate about white working class. I think there is evidence that even middle England is beginning to see merit in supporting the BNP. The motivation is not racist as such but because mainstream parties fail to understand this basic perception - the perception that this country is overcrowded, clogged roads, services overstretched, sink estates, housing shortages, massive calls on public services - a perception the country is falling apart. What do they see - more and more migration - which is exacerbating the problems we are contending with - and worse that this migration is receiving priority support of valueable assets in short supply (that they have not earned.) Middle England does not accept that we need migration to keep the county going - they believe migration is a drain on our society.

It is a complicated situation, but the white working class ARE flocking to the BNP, and I beleive that the reasons are multiple. Firstly, this Labour Government has ignored them for the past 12 years, behaving like a Conservative government, and supporting big business and Enterprise, as opposed to workers rights/employment/opportunities/education/. Secondly, immigration is a HUGE issue for the white working class, as in recent years there has been a huge influx of migrants from all over the world such as Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Poland, Lithuania, on top of the migrants tat were already coming here. This has put huge pressures on public services such as transport, NHS, housing, police, etc. and also alot of employers and business' like this because they can pay these migrants minimum wage or even below, as they are so grateful for a better standard of life from where they came from. They will also work alot harder, to show their gratitude for this 'better life' that they have been given. The white working class will see these migrants getting the jobs before them, and also in better social housing, more benefits etc. etc. and resentment and hatred builds up over a period of time. Also, when the white working class have socio/economical problems or problems with mental illness/coping/employment/education, instead of getting the help and support that they need, this government seems to bang them up in jail, for minor offences. Our jails are bursting at the seams, full up with about 80% white working class, a good number who cannot even read or write. This is an absolute disgrace! Also, how can white working class people's children afford to go University any more. Grants have been done away with, when alot of them are already in debt and from deprived backgrounds, why would they want to get into £20,000 worth of debt, when there is no guarantee they would get a decent job anyway, especially at this particular time. There are many many reasons (some built up over time) why traditional Labour voters (the MP allowances scandal didn't help), mainly the white working class, are sympathising with the BNP, and the BNP know this. Labour, and the conservatives HAVE to address this problem as quick as possible, because I have heard many voters (white working class) saying to me, that they will vote BNP, as in a major protest vote, but I am not entirely sure that they know just exactly what Nick Griffin is all about. This is a sad state of affairs.

The BNP are now getting more coverage than ever and are saying the things that people believe but are too frightened to say. Mass immigration causes endless problems and puts a strain on all services health, housing etc. Language problems are tolerated , we spend millions of pounds supplying interpreters for legal and illegible immigrants .There is endless money spent on legal aid to support these people and to top it off this week a illegal asylum seeker was allowed to stay because they had a pet. When old people can’t heat their homes, schools have no money, and we are closing specialist schools for disabled children yet opening schools for Muslims ONLY! what do we expect .Why is Britain the Number One destination for asylum seekers? - it is because we are soft touch. I have a example of a Polish worker being offered what we used to call council housing and she calls Social housing, which she sees as her right, when people who were born here and have waited for years get nowhere. Professional politicians are so detached from reality that voters are becoming detached from them.

the discussion on tonight's programme about the white working class was one of the worst I have seen. What we were basically given was four middle-class people with no idea of the life we( yes, i am working class) have to live.
The first problem for me is that for thirty years all the political parties have ignored or even worse denegrated my community. We are "chavs"; we are scallies; we are racist; we are the enemy within or we are lazy and benefit receivers. Nothing positive is ever said. the attitude is that we are a problem to be solved not a valued part of scociety.
Secondly many of the jobs that was traditionally done by the working class have disappeared due to technological change and no political party has even started to consider how to deal with this.
Thirdly successive governments have ignored the effect of a whole series of waves of immigration have had on wage levels for unskilled or semi-skilled jobs. Labourers wages in london haven't gone up for twenty years.
Fourthly all the main political parties (Labour, tories and liberals) are dominated by the middle-class and dont speak to us in a language we understand or care about it. Why should we support parties that don't represent us and dont even know the problems we face.
Fifthly why should we aspire when most of us in work have seen ordinary peoples wages barely keep pace with prices while those at the top (MPs, company directors, local government executives, civil service officials) corruptly reward themselves with massive pay rises, vast bonuses and generous expenses even when they have failed miserably. Whats more, it has become even more difficult and in many cases almost impossible for somebody to start at a low level and get to the upper reaches of any organisation. I worked for a international cosmetics company for ten years but I was never considered for a promotion because I was a warehouseman and therefore, in the eyes of the bosses, not capable of doing anything else.
Finally there is the problem of bias. This was raised in the programme but dismissed by Barbara Follet with the idea that the government has generously provided hospitals, schools etc. What she failed to realise is that everyone gets those services but migrants and ethnic communities get extras while white working class communities dont get any equivalent.
Next time Newsnight how about having a white working class person or people on a discussion about white working class people. The panel summed up everything that is wrong about the political attitude to my community.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I spent the whole of my childhood in Blurton. It's not a town, it's a residential area created in the post war era of the 1950s to 1970s.

If there is no such thing as the working class today it is because it doesn't recognise itself as such. The industrial jobs have gone and started going in the 1970s, not just the pottery industry but Shelton Bar, Michelin and Hem Heath and Florence Colleries. But the world of work remains one where people's scope for self fulfillment and self-expression remains just as limited, where the people who do the work have very little influence on how that work is done, and do not expect much better.

The contrast and separation of cultures today between someone supporting a family on £15,000 p.a. and someone supporting a family on £150,000 p.a. is far greater than that between a white person of no particular religious belief and a British Muslim both earning £15,000 and supporting their families.

It's the economy stupid.

The only people who need educating are the ruling/middle classes, they have benifitted from immigration, not so the working classes. I listen to the middle class comentators who have no idea what is happening to the working classes. All the politicians do is spin the facts and we the working classes see it is all wrong, but the middle class liberals believe it all. Spin, migrant workers pay their taxes and benifit the exchequer, fact, a migrant worker with two children here or still abroad on £7 an hour pays £2832 in tax and N.I and gets back £6792 in working tax credit and child tax credit. Spin, migrants are not favoured over British citizens when it comes to housing, fact, migrant worker with wife and two children scores more points on the system than a British couple with no children no matter that they may have paid taxes for decades, Is that fair? That is just the start of it I can go on for hours, none of this affects the middle classes so they are ignorant of the facts and so the resentment grows, that old saying comes to mind the middle classes protest the working classes riot. As has already happened in one market town in Lincolnshire.

A message to all those freeloaders who have the nerve to call themselves politicians ? don't you dare try and tell me who to vote for, because that is exactly what you're all doing when you go off on a diatribe about the BNP, I'm intelligent enough to decide for myself, I might not agree with everything they stand for, but having read thier manifesto, alot of it makes sense to me, so yes I will be voting for them, you've had your chance and you blew it, each and every one of you !

#19 Tell me about it ponks1234, I live there!!! : (

I watched the "White working class" debate, and it did more to confirm how much politicians, especially the one on the programme, are out of touch when she still insists that NL have takens steps (ie thrown millions) at the "issues".
Also, one post has already called the White working class a "rump".
Is this not in itself racist??
Imagine if you replaced the colour with black, or Islamic, and the "offence" which would allegedly be caused.
The discussion touched upon aspirations.
If any of the people commenting took the trouble to read "Road to Wigan Pier" by Orwell, and then trouble themselves to visit some of the areas mentioned in his book, then they would probably find that, although much of the housing deprivation has been ameliorated, there is still existing a blanket of social deprivation similar to that which Orwell found in 1936.
How can over 70 years have passed with so little understanding?
The intelligentsia are still wringing their hands over the working class, although there is now much less work , in the industrial sense for them to do, due to policies the WWC have no control over.At least the intellectual, Orwell, was honest in his reporting, causing outrage at the time.(Again, among other intellectuals)
Descendents of those people featured in his 1936 book are still suffering, in different forms, the discrimination so evident so long ago, but still otherwise intelligent people, living in the prosperous South, are still in denial, like the king with no clothes, that the prosperity they enjoy is not shared equally throughout the country.
BNP??? If a reincarnated Napolean came back and gave them decent conditions and equality with the promise and actuality of prosperity and a well off old age, not dependent upon the state, the White Working Class, along with their black and asian friends would vote for him, whatever he did to the ruling class!!For modern politics has failed the people, even though the politicians deny it, and media won`t report it.
If you want a discussion about white working class people, take your programme to the North West of England, where less of our money is spent on citizens in proportion to the South East, and then ask why people get mad about government and being labelled by talking heads, as a result of political opinions aired which reflect only the deep frustration at hearing stories about immigrants "flooding into" Britain, uncontrolled, and of cases where immigrants, importing their "culture" conduct honour killings with impunity.
Whatever the media think about the White working class, they must avoid the condescension which has crept into the discussion,which as part of the class struggle of old, sometimes surfaces when it gets the chance. as it would not be tolerated when discussing other ethnic groups.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#21 Couldn't agree more Dovedale, and I noticed mass immigration was hardly mentioned, and didn't appear a problem at all. It was just all those so worthless WWCs! I don't remember being aspirational when young, but I was lucky enough to work.

I would like to see a set of rules in place that any people, who have arrived LEGALLY from all corners of the globe to live here, must adhere to. Otherwise, if they don't like it, they should return whence they came taking their offspring with them. They should have to learn English immediately with no translations or translators provided at our cost. I don't want burkas on my streets. I don't want thousands of chanting Asians marching demanding the removal of our way of life. I don't want the gun law of the West Indies. We like Christmas not Wintervale in our towns. We queue we don't push and shove. We don't gob on the street when we leave our places of worship. We disapprove of corrupt practices preferring straight dealing. I could go on there sre so many unpleasant aspects the influx of foreigners has brought to our nation. Politicians in their ivory towers speak of 'RICH DIVERSITY' for many of us that is not the term we would use.

from mimpromptu
Streetphotobeing, it's now 4 minutes to midnight
A few hours before sunshine through clouds sheds its light.

Streetphotobeing, it's now 1 minute to midnight
Before sun rays begin their new fight
It's cloudy supposed to be with some rain
So tomorrow they'll be under strain.

Oh, before I finish, the clock has just struck midnight
The hour of owls beginning their flight
Into lofty terrains unbeknown to outsiders
Oh, these owls they are really good fighters!
mim

from mimpromptu
You know, I overslept tonight and only managed to see the last few minutes of Newsnight but from you said in your post at #8 perhaps I didn't miss that much. I'm only sorry that I didn't see more of Jeremy Paxman. I'll wait, however, when the programme is on the BBC iplayer and have my fill then. Should I find anything really worth commenting on, I shall do so in the morning.
Hope you have a good night's sleep, Streetphotobeing
mim

I think that Newsnight's thesis that a disillusioned white working class that has been deserted by the mainstream political parties are now turning to the BNP is flawed in several respects. Firstly, so far as I am aware, the BNP does not draw its current electoral support exclusively from this segment of society. Rather, its electoral support is much more widespread, encompassing, for example, some support from middle class anti-immigrant British people, and also picking up a lot of support from many other misguided people who are have become so disenchanted with the mainstream political parties after the recent parliamentary expenses scandals that they have turned "in protest" to this neo-Nazi and racist party on the strength of its pretentious claims to be an anti-establishment party.

I also share very much the excellent analysis of SheffTim's posting (#9), which reminds us that the BNP and its racist predecesors in the 1970s and 1980s (the National Front) always attracted support from mainly white working class communities. When in 1968, for instance, Enoch Powell made his infamous anti-immigrant "rivers of blood" speeches, it was white working class dockers in the East End who flocked to the strets to demonstrate in support of him. Even earlier than that period, my parents (both British citizens of African origin) told me that it was often white working class men in the factories who goaded their trade unions to launch anti-immigrant campaigns against the influx of black, Commonwealth workers into the workforce. These trade unions often ranted too about how immigrants were 'taking over' the jobs of skilled British white men and women. It was in 1978 also that the then Leader of the Opposition, a certain Margaret Thatcher, talked in one braodcast about how British people feared that they were being "swamped" by immigrants - a cynical ploy on her part to persuade supporters of the National Front to return to the Conservative fold in the forthcoming General Election of 1979.

There is therefore nothing new about ignorant working class popular support for the Far Right and for racist and fascist anti-immigrant parties. What the NF and the BNP are particularly adept at doing is cynically tapping into the deep wells of anti-immigrant sentiment that still exists amongst a significant minorty of the indigenous British population, and then skilfully exploiting such sentiments to further their own nasty, thuggish ulterior political aims. The additional socio-economic factors that obviously aid this cynical process of manipulating the the minds of their ignorant working class supportets are the recession, high levels unemployment, under-investment in housing and education, and the widespread (and understandable) popular disgust at the snouts in the trough politics of the mainstream parties. To their largely ignorant and uneducated supporters, the BNP's narrative is a very simple, yet also seemingly potent one: scapegoat the ethnic minorities and foreign EU worker for all the social and economic problems in our society. Thus they send their racist activists to some of the most economically deprived communities in our country and deceive people that the reason why they cannot get their council house or why they cannot find work is not because of the economic mismanagement and failures of successive Labour and Conservative Governments, but because of the brown or black faced people who live among them or who have recently come to live in their comunities from abroad. This strategy is merely about the crude politics of scapegoating minorities at its very worst, and it is no different from the similar narrative that Hitler used in the 1930s to dupe millions of economically dispossessed Germans into believing that their misfortunes were mainly the fault of the Jewish minority.

Those of us who are more educated and poltically literate know that the shortage of affordable social housing and jobs in this country has very little to do in reality with either the ethnio inorities or the influx of labour from mainly new entrant EU countries of Eastern Europe. The real reasons for these serious economic problems are multiple, dep-seated and complex: the BNP, however, are skilful at cynically reducing these complexities to simple political lies and simple racist maxims.

I do feel, however, that there is still a legitimate debate to be had about the consequences of the high levels of immigration into this country in recent years, and the almost undoubted strains that this has placed on our public services and the social and cultural fabric of our society. However, in having this debate, we should always bear in mind that Britain's ethnic minorities and the 'Black working class' has been as much a victim of high levels of unemployment and poor access to affordable social housing as the White working class. Rather than cynically scapegoating blacks and EU owrkers for our complex social and economic problems, we should instead concentrate our efforts at better ensuring that those migrants who come from abroad and declare their intention to settle in our society and comtribute positively to our economis wealth (which they mainly do!) are much better integrated into the mainstream culture of our society - for example, by being encouraged to speak and write our English language. Social policy now urgently needs to address the need to strengthen integration and encourage everyone living in our crowded inner cities to speak English, and take pride in speaking English as their first and primary language. It is only when this happens that many of the negative and unjustified perceptions about a gulf between 'them' and 'us' on immigration will be broken down and the BNP will be exposed as the extremist bigots that they and their kind have always been throughout modern history.

#31 & #34
ecolizzy
I have a feeling in my bones that you're going through a really hard time and perhaps out of despair, although I may be wrong, you're latching on to people like jj for comfort. I really doubt it that you'll find it with him but admit again that I may be wrong.
All I know that my parents could never reconcile their differences which wasn't all that pleasant to me and in fact they both died unhappy and even now when the whole thing hits me again I can easily burst into floods of tears. It was mum who in the end totally cut my dad off and resented me having anything to do with him. Otherwise we loved each other to bits though she didn't really understand me or my needs. Nor did he for that matter but he was a very sick man physically having spent a few years in a German labour camp where he found his own dad on a heap of dead bodies.
There has been another split up in the family but the whole thing has been handled much more wisely and from what I can see now all parties are relatively happy and what's most important is that the kid is growing into a well balanced, happy and creative young lady with no hang ups as far as I can see.

Regarding the White Working Class debate;
Social classification, is not so clearly defined as analysts of the electorate portray in this article.

How is “working class” defined? In Richard Hoggart’s study, “The Uses of Literacy”, he narrows the definition down to Attitude and Values, rather than to income economics.

I am white and English. I consider myself to be working class. A post war baby boomer, I was born and raised on a council estate, to a “bread winner” father, and a mother who was the focus of house and home, in a neighbourhood community where achievement and failure were closely observed with both envy and concern for the well-being of “our own”.

But I went to a Grammar school and became professionally qualified. I live in my own detached private house in the leafy suburbs and afford my children all of the privileges of modern living. I make a significant contribution to the public purse. But I retain my working class attitude and values. We are, as a group, by Pareto’s analysis, some 80% of the electorate. We are essentially a working class nation.

But unlike the working classes of Hoggart’s era, we are better educated, in better health and much more instantly and accurately informed through all types of media. Our class lifestyle is merging closer to the lifestyle of the historical Tory master

Nick Ferrari’s comments hit the nails on their heads. How refreshing to hear the gripes and frustrations of the indigenous Briton expressed so clearly, fearless of the PC brigade. Since WW2 we have got on with our rapidly improving life alongside the gradual and cumulative exploitation of our inherent tolerance as a nation of essentially working class folk, by the notion of “Political Correctness”.

There now prevails amongst the electorate an abhorrence of overzealous liberalism, which gives more weight to minority and ethnic groups than to the masses and which panders to those who prefer to exist without compliance with our social, civil and legal rules and standards. We are frustrated with an absence of clear difference between the mainstream parties.

None of the mainstream parties, which offer the prospect of substantial Governance, are properly addressing our “Values” as a nation through the issues that matter to us; High crime rates and a week penal and justice system and failure to claw back the proceeds of crime, failure to contain unsocial behaviour, inadequate health care and fair funding for care of the elderly, easily exploited and unfair social security rules, ever growing red tape and bureaucracy, over-the-top privilege for minority groups, inadequate immigration control, over provision for ethnic groups, insurgence of extremism amongst our Muslim community, and not forgetting inadequate regulation of those incompetent and greedy bankers, etc, etc.

Its all gone too far and we want a fundamental change in direction!

I listened to Newsnight tonight... and thought I was still living in the Britain of late 70’s....Same old myths were being pedalled out...and perceptions presented as facts in the debate on the BNP. Even the contributors – from the Minister to experts- were uninformed about real facts!

Jackie Long’s report followed the same predictable one sided pattern of blaming the ‘others’ with others being completely excluded from it!

Was this lazy journalism or a deliberate drive to give weight to racist underpinnings?

Myth 1 – BNP is giving voice to hopes and anxieties for white working class

Myth 2 – White working class is being written out of history

Myth 3 – Large numbers are voting for the BNP

Myth 4 – Fear and failure breeds racism

Let’s get some facts right!

Fact 1 – There is now a whole generation – both White and Black- that is WORK LESS CLASS thanks to the Thatcher legacy of 70’s to 90’s. Even the traditional party of working people –the Labour Party- has not developed a framework to engage and provide for this CLASS of people.

Fact 2 – BNP has no strategy on how it will engage the work less class

Fact 3 The BNP is marginal in British politics with only 2 MEPs and 57 councillors out of a national total of over 22,000

Fact 4 Blurton’s 98.7% white population faces problems of disability and unemployment -with now two generations being unemployed – leading to poverty. The problem is not ‘Blacks’, ‘foreigners’ or ‘immigrants’ taking over their jobs and housing.

To create meaningful change in people’s lives, we need HONEST and uncorrupt politicians who can create opportunities for the work LESS class so that the ideology of fascism does not give them false hopes.

DONT YOU DARE !
Dont you dare tell me that we're coming out of the recession that you created, we KNOW the truth.
Dont you dare tell me our kids are doing better at school, we KNOW the truth !
Don't you dare tell me that violent crime has dropped by so much percent, we KNOW the truth.
Don't you dare tell me there are more police on the ground and that PCSO's really make a difference, we KNOW the truth.
Dont you dare tell me that immigrants are given houses over people who were born here, we KNOW the truth.
Dont you dare tell me that your pretty sure you know how many immigrants ( legal and illegal)are in our country, we KNOW the truth.
Dont you dare tell me that we don't have a problem with Islamic extremism in some of our cities, we KNOW the truth.
Don't you dare tell me this country isn't broken, we KNOW the truth.
and DONT YOU DARE tell me your sorry for fiddling your expenses, BECAUSE WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW IT ISN'T TRUE !
And yes I will be voting BNP !

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#39 continuation from mimpromptu
ecolizzy
I'm quite convinced that your story and my mum's story are different. My mum cut my dad off and he pined for her until the final day. She lived a worthwhile life working as a surgeon, having friends and appreciative neighbours as well as being involved with the local community and within the Solidarity and then democratic political movement until a couple of years before her death. He unfortunately didn't quite know how to live really, etc, etc.
All I'm trying to say, ecolizzy, is do what you want but do not let it affect your children and certainly try your best not to feed hatred or emotional confusion into them. I know it sounds harsh but the truth is that no kid has asked to be born.
mim

#41 from mimpromptu
realvoice
I'm really impressed with your rational and common sense analysis.
Sounds just about right to my ears.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I'll start with a little introduction of myself.
I am a qualified motorcycle mechanic and have years of experience in various engineering sectors.
I'm living somewhere in the north of England and am unemployed.
I have never had a job that paid more than £12,000 per year.

I've just watched newsnight and decided to post this.

It's only people with short memories who wonder why the BNP are gaining popularity.
The people voting for the BNP are people who remember the mess the Tories made of this country, and it's these same people who are living through the even bigger mess Labour have made of this country.
No-one in their right mind is going to vote Lib Dem, as it's a party that would struggle to tie a shoelace.

It's not a case of the BNP and its voters being 'racist' as the mainstream media, including the 'supposedly unbiased' BBC, would try make us believe.
If this is the case then there must be lots of racists around.

Does it mean the BBC are racist to some extent, as there seems to be many non-white faces on their crimewatch program? No it does not.

Crimewatch homepage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/crimewatch/index.shtml

Go add your own thoughts of crimewatch at the forum address below.
https://www.forum.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1135382

If I vote BNP does this mean I am automatically a racist? NO, it damn well does not!

My father left school with no qualifications, he worked down a pit for years then worked for the British Steel Corporation, (BSC) and his basic wage was £20,000 a year in the early 1980's.
He always voted Labour as far as I can remember, apart from one time he voted Conservative, which I think was something to do with the right to buy a council house.

Now my father votes BNP, as does everyone in my family and all my relatives. Does this mean my entire family and all my relatives are racist? NO, it damn well does not!

When will people get it into their heads that it's not an issue of race, it's an issue of immigration.
When will the influx of people into this country stop? when our public services collapse maybe, when we've run out of places to build perhaps, when there's standing room only, or when there are running battles in the street?

People are now voting BNP in millions because they have seen the main two political parties pi**ing in the same pot and sharing power every 10-15 years.

If any of the mainstream parties could offer me an affordable house and a secure job, here and now in 2009, earning what my dad earned way back in 1980, then maybe I'd vote for them.
But, they wont because they can't, because all the industry that hasn't been sold to foreign companies now employs foreign workers, because they're cheaper.

While the situation remains this way the BNP vote can only grow.

from mimpromptu
Apparently, more and more Polish teachers play truant these days and so, instead of children having their English lesson for example, they end up either going home or having a PE teacher encouraging them to do their homework or revision of other subjects.

What was hilarious was the politicians pretending they 'understand' 'listen' etc. The problem is and has been for decades that they, the politicians, have never listened to the people especially the poorer working class and blithely dragged in as many cheap cleaners and gardeners for themselves as possible. While most of the population keeps telling them they want no more immigrants. So we get the farce of this newsnight with politicians still telling us they know what we really mean rather than what we actually say!

No one cares what race immigrants are the just want them out of our country. See your own BBC /Mori poll!

The entire rich poor divide that has got worse is down to cheap labour being let in, so low earners do not become scarce and have to be paid more! Keeping the posh fancy job rich ever richer like we see the BBC staff like newsreaders, let alone the Ross, Paxman, and Wogans.

from mimpromptu
Streetphotobeing

It's now 4.40 past the midnight hour,
I'm not exactly feeling like a pretty flower.
But my spirits as always are running well high
Today I may decide to Mozart first fly

Once I get to Queensway at this time or that
It may be his 'Requiem' for us not to forget
The victims of innocents caught up in the cruel game
Invented by madmen repeating their refrain

Waiting for a moment of sexual pleasure
Hoping to get with it a mountain of treasure.

After that I haven't decided quite yet
What I shall twirl to or glide to my friend.

I've got another ditty in the pipeline, Streetphotobeing, but on a different note so shall send it later
mim

from mimpromptu
Streetphotobeing, I've got it, more quickly than I thought. Here it is:
With my life story just about complete
It’s time to move forward rather than repeat
Again and again and yet more again.
So henceforth and from now a new fruitious terrain
Will have to be explored and enjoyed to the full
Of the life’s offerings multifarious pool.

Hope you have a good day, Streetphotobeing. I may be sending some prose comments after I've seen Newsnight and looked at this morning's news but am not planning to ditty further for the time being.

WHAT'S THE VIEW ON THAT DAHN THE NAG'S 'ED?

It is in the nature of young men that they are inclined to violence. The word on political lips is that NICK GRIFFIN exacerbates the condition. But it has long been known, that the VAST MAJORITY of violence is ALCOHOL mediated, yet the government attitude to the former is dramatically different from its (lack of) concern with the latter.

(I was 'struck' by Ken Livingstone, this morning, speaking against Griffin's 'incitement factor' - no mention of alcohol . . .

I think I have the solution. Let the government and associated 'dignitaries', such as Ken, be 'supremely relaxed' about violence, however it is engendered; let them simply tax the cause.

TAX THE WORDS OF GRIFFIN and add the money to that PHENOMENAL SUM already accrued from alcohol sales. We shall be out of debt in no time.

from mimpromptu
As I said earlier this morning, I have now watched Newsnight and looked at more info on the internet and am ready to forward my thoughts on it all:
• Discussion re: white working class. Contrary to what some of the bloggers have said about it, I thought Jeremy did a very good job of it with Tim Lott’s contribution being the most perceptive and informative. I’ve skipped part of Jackie’s piece as I don’t see what a joker should have anything to do with the serious problems that the community portrayed in it have to face in life.
• I also skipped Lyse’s piece as there didn’t seem anything new being said about the current situation in Afghanistan.
• I thoughgt it was strange of Mark Urban finishing his piece about who is supposed to be giving up first and therefore treating the bloody fights in Afghanistan as some kind of game. Methinks he was referring to something completely different. Something to do with joking, I assume.
• It’s a shame that it wasn’t possible for Jeremy to interview John McCaine. Perhaps next week?
• I was happy to hear that the American government are questioning the Tories’ involvement with anti-Semitic parties in the European Parliament something I did myself after the European election by e-mailing one of the Conservative MEPs who I had been previously in correspondence with. He did reply trying to justify their decision but I shall not go into any further details here.
• What a mess, that Royal Mail impasse! It doesn’t look like Pete is handling the situation correctly and honourably.
• There is an item apparently in one of the newspapers, Daily Mail, I think about some myseteriious deaths. That might prove a viable investigation.
• Apparently Roman Polanski’s legal advisers are in disarray with some suggesting that he should agree to the extradition while others would prefer for him to stay in Europe. My own view is that he should go to the USA and face the music over there. This would be the most ‘honorable’ solution, I think, and which might be more acceptable in the long run to his wife and children. It doesn’t look like he is going to be left of the hook in Switzerland anyway and I understand the overall outcome of him going to the States would be more favourable to the legal outcome of his case.
No joky bits this time, just doesn't seem appropriate somehow at the moment
mim

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS FAR-RIGHT CULTURAL TROTSKYISM

Thewiseman (#40) "Since WW2 we have got on with our rapidly improving life alongside the gradual and cumulative exploitation of our inherent tolerance as a nation of essentially working class folk, by the notion of “Political Correctness”."

Political Correctness is a political tool of the anarchistic far-right, i.e libertarianism (free-market liberalism which is the hallmark of all three main parties) which odd as it may seem, is Trotskyism which Si anti-state like the original Bolsheviks (anarchists). It's the root of Neoconservatism, which is responsible for Britain participating in wars in the Middle East and Asia on behalf of Israel and its NYC support. This is all designed to free the markets from state control (regulation) via encouraging individualism and 'liberal-democracy'. It uses immigration, anti-racism, anti-sexism, Human Rights. 'education, education, education' etc to do this in ways which most peole do not understand. Many of the protagonists of these 'freedom' campaigns are unwittingly 'useful idiots' just as many of the original Bolsheviks were in 1917 were they were used by the Germans to get Russia out of WWI. Some clever humans are bright, but low on 'conscientiousness' and 'agreeableness'...psychopaths.

WHAT DOES COTERMINUS OR COEXTENSIVE MEAN?

mimpromptu (#53) Imagine a politcal group which, long ago, just happened to have a very high proportion of people as members who also belonged to a religous group. Imagine again that this political movement was competing with other political movements. Now, finally, imagine some people successfully having campaigned to have discrimination against, or worse, persecution of, those of your religious faith made illegal, socially unacceptable.

Do you see any political/economic advantage in that?

If you do, then show it, and you'll be welcomed to the domain of adult political and current event discussion on Newsnight blogs.

I predict a staged managed anti BNP show, using the word vile a lot. I'm from Coventry and as I walked through the city centre yesterday I was shocked to see how many groups of immigrant hangarounds there were in town during the day. Why are they here ? what good are they doing the UK ? It used to be Mum's and pensioners shopping in the town in the daytime, not anymore. I need to vote BNP next time, they are the only people talking sense and not just out for themselves.

I wonder if some bright spark has thought of taking a voting intention poll before and after the Question Time programme tonight. It would have been very interesting to see if Mr Griffin managed to persuade more people to vote for him.

NN isnt just about politics or current events JJ

Last night I wondered what would the world like like had Hitler been accepted into the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts and not ended up homeless. He was judged not to have an appreciation of the human form but some talent with architecture. (obviously not in Coventry)

Judged not to have had an appreciation of the human form.

What if Hitler had surestart ?

Mim do you think you could be some way involved with skating to earn a bit of dosh, you do it almost every day and it seems to me those who wish to learn could learn from your abilities ? A little Hitler may be averted by an ice skating appreciation of The Human Form.

'ARE YOU A NEW YORKER'?

TheTenaciousJ (#56) The problem is they don't have policies which are practically deliverable. The main parties know they are trapped in legal webs. What would the BNP do and most important of all, HOW?

I can say I am going to go send a manned flight to Uranus. I can say all sorts of things that I would do if I were in charge. These have got to be deliverable or they should not be promised. That's the bottom line. Are any of the BNP policies deliverable? peole should not be wasting their time arguing as to whether they are morally right or wrong. They should pin the BNP down on how they would go about delivering (even on the apparently unacceptable policies - e.g. New Labour has the Voluntary Repatriation policy, i.e. it's in active legislation see the Borders Agency site - how many take it up?). EU Law proscribes giving jobs to one national never mind racial group over another. We have ratified Lisbon. Once Poland does, what then? Anything NATIONAL is probably in breach o EU law as EU states become like USA states. Can you imagine it if New Yorkers were discriminated against for jobs in Michigan? That's what's going on! International Socialism (Trotskyism aka Anarchism).

streetphotobeing (#58) "What if Hitler had surestart ?"

SureStart, like HeadStart, doesn't/won't work. I have told you why many times. You don't listen. Why is that?

Stop listening to your own thoughts and listen instead to what you are being told. Have a look through some of this and see if any of it opens your eyes. (Linda is Jewish by the way, so was Herrnstein. Jensen is half-Jewish).

You don't do black humour very well do you JJ

We should listen to what were being told , oh dear me.

"Stop listening to your own thoughts" oh dear me.

Can you ice skate JJ might you need some lesson's for some human form appreciation?

#59 Yup JJ that's what I keep thinking, we seem to be trapped into this style of living, and won't legally be able to do anything about it. It's all well and fine to say what you are going to do, but it's quite another thing to actually do it. : (

After all if the BNP did get more votes, it would only result in a few seats for them. And would probably see one of the two major parties in power anyway.

#58 from mimpromptu
Streetphotobeing
I'm quite sure I could earn my living with both ice-skating and dittying but I would need support from somebody who knows something about filming and publishing. I don't mind if any other skaters copy me if they so wish. I know that what I do on ice is unique and different which of course doesn't mean that I'm the best. Just different, that's all.
I'm hoping to talk about things to Jeremy Paxman about this but he must be preoccupied with other issues at the moment. I don't think I would ask anybody else to help me before speaking to him as I've offered him the publishing and filming rights which we are yet to discuss face to face in real life.
As far as teaching is concerned, I think it's too late as one needs to undergo special courses, etc, which I don't feel like doing and then I'm not particularly into quite a lot of technical stuff which I'm not into neither.
Thank you, Streetphotobeing
mim

#57 from mimpromptu
ecolizzy
Sounds like a brilliant idea. Perhaps you should contact a few pollsters.
mim

When I listen to people on TV / radio discussing the BNP they seem assume that everyone dislikes the BNP and that the BNP are vile people who should not be allowed to be heard. But when I actually talk to people about the BNP the morjority are agree with a lot of the BNP views, perhaps its just not seen as okay to agree with the BNP on TV / radio or the people they have on the shows are only from one side of the story.

LOOK AWAY NOW (If you don't want to know the public's opinion, BBC)

Again today the BBC Newsreader read 'typical e-mails' to challenge the case for allowing BNP on tonight's Question Time programme, yet their own 'Have Your Say' responses would have represented a true account of viewer's comments, in contrast to the 'random' selection quoted.

As at 11am this morning the comments that received more than 100 'votes' on BBC's Have Your Say (What Questions would you ask Nick Griffin)were as follows:

"The BBC appear to have 'inadvertantly' allowed in a whole bus load of Guardian reading social workers to shout you down from the audience!"

"I would ask how he is going to tackle the out of control population problem in the UK, ..and how he'll deal with antisocial behaviour. In all cases I would expect a straighforward answer unlike the other main parties who seem happy to watch this country go down the drain happily aided by the PC brigade. The silent majority are fed up!"

"Will you be asking that other ethnically exclusive organisations open up their memberhip as the BNP is doing so?"

".. would the BNP find it harder to get votes if the government and opposition parties actually listened to the electorate and secure our borders so our population does not reach the 70 million plus, that's been alluded to in the last few days.And stop this unsustainable influx of migrants from central and eastern Europe."

"Parties like the BNP represent failure of the mainstream parties to address the above issues which are worthy of debate."

So it isn't just the silent majority who are ignored. On this morning's BBC news one argument was that 'only about 6% of the UK population voted BNP'. If that does not qualify BNP to appear on the programme then neither should ethnic minorities (7%?)be in the audience. We can look forward to an unequal contest this evening, but it is a step in the Right direction.

BEIJING CALLING! BEIJING CALLING!

ecolizzy (#63) "After all if the BNP did get more votes, it would only result in a few seats for them. And would probably see one of the two major parties in power anyway."

What we are seeing is a classic 'behavioural contrast effect' at work. There is no real choice between the Conservatives, Lib-Dems and New Labour. They are all anarchistic (anti-state).

If you watch the NN Politics Panel you will have seen three essentially Jewish (she worked for a Jewish PR group) spin doctors discussing the subtle merits and demerits of stiring one's tea clockwise, anti-clockwise and in a mixed way. It has the viewers (and the electorate generally) deliberating over inconsequential nuances within Liberal-Democratic libertarian politics - all of which essentially does nothing in terms of governance, or at best, passes legislation and implements polices to protect the rights of the individual against the state. But wait a minute...

Then, along comes the clod hopping BNP. Up go placards saying 'It's a Nazi Party' 'They're not like other parties"' etc! True, they are not like other parties, thank goodness, but how many think about what they are complaining about?

National Socialism and Fascism (Corporatism) were in fact supported by the Catholic church (see what's happened to them - they got out of line centuries ago). Guess why? National Socialism was authoritarian and hierarchical. It focused on the family like Islam does today. The state managed business and controlled the means of production, exchange and communication in the interest of the people, who incidentally largely worked for the state as in teh PRC today! Most anti-fascists leave that last bit out. The thing is, National Socialism works for the people against predators on people. As to racism, just remember, teh evil Nazis were allied with teh Japanese and Arab world!

What we see in all this hysterical anti-BNP talk is many people unwittingly promoting anarchism - i.e. they are pulling themselves down but can't see it. They are giving them a forced choice between the three main parties. It is a contrast effect. The party in the shadows is Old Labour. That is no longer spoken of. That was the real threat.

TheTenaciousJ (#66) The media speaks for the liberal 'comspiracy' ;-)

from mimpromptu

Ah, the human form, Streetphotobeing!

mim

When I listen to discussions about the BNP on the TV or Radio its always people agreeing that the BNP are vile and nobody likes them but in real life when I listen to people discussing the BNP they are usually in agreement that the BNP is what this country needs, something doesn't add up. The media should be impartial and allow the BNP a fair voice. Let's hope that newsnight can prove me wrong and let Mr Griffin have a fair say.

Wed 21st Oct A traditional conversational angle on the white working class and then Rob Berkeley showed support for BME's and white working class to be 'same boat' material for BNP leadership/inclusion sounding like a 'coconut'philosopher. I am a multi-racial female, through and through minority and I am not interested in the white working class or middle class - classification - the personification of my life is my interest, not being hidden by the ironies and antagonisms of 21st century Britain. The panel failed to understand that BNP voting is culturally OK for many white working class who also listen to 50 Cent so some white working class are a compromised human cultural product so this can cause loss of respect and existential fears from 'their own' while others laugh at this and therefore don't fear white extremism.
The likes of 50 Cent benefit from the white working class more than i do - they make such people wealthy not themselves - they don't become Eminem (a white rapper) just because of their interest in this particular cultural product/environment so you can't create policy for personality and the BNP will not lead anyone into a classless America where Eminems happen but I would love,love,love to hear BNP views on white '50 Cent'-lovers....and another thing can the BNP set up dating agencies for your white men to leave this multi-racial female alone. I don't want to be their 'brown sugar' thanks.

Postscript (#68) Have you noticed how the NN Political Panel and the BBC and other channels rarely devote time to fair coverage of how truly alternative political systems run? E.g. The Chinese or N Korean system? Or the Iranian? Same reason why the BNP gets short shrift.

The way Griffin and the BNP is treated is appalling and is bound to make them angry, anxious and say and do things which they will regret. The BBC invites on quite silly commentators who start going on about Griffin having been convicted of racism. But what if Race Relations legislation, like all Equalities legislation and policy is just one of the tools used by Liberal-Democracies to silence true opposition? What if they use immigration as an anarchistic tool? Hmmm?

Look at the population growth of Pakistan and Bangladesh post WWII to today - from below 50 million to over 150 million each. They have more than tripled in the time that the UK went up 10 million. The problem is not colour, it is that they have low mean IQ. It makes statism and infrastructure impossible to deliver. It's like having too many kids to manage. Brighter people know their limits so have smaller families. Look at London's population growth in the next 30 years, 99.9% will be in BME groups. Look at the GDP and social stability of Pakistan and Bangladesh. This is because humans are driven by genes. Talking to stock and crops does not change yields, which will provision of education? Big Question - not suitable for Question Time ;-).

Training Shire-horses will not help them win the Derby etc etc. Why is this not more obvious? Answer: because most people are really really thick even when told over and over again :-(

Democracy? Freedom? Only if one is very naive or ineducable? :-(

On the white working class and the BNP last night I thought it was a pity that the gentleman who had Asian and Black friends but intended voting BNP was not probed further.

Did he understand the intentions of the BNP to repatriate ethnic minorities? Was he going to wave his friends off? Hitler said similar things and eventually his actions mutated to the Holocaust - that the BNP deny happened.

Television and radio stars who take cocaine are praised for their "off-the-wall" brilliance instead of being reprimanded, according to a former BBC producer who claimed drug use is rife in the industry.

... was offered cocaine on her very first day at the BBC in the 1990s,

"One of the things about the media... is that, as your addiction progresses, certain behaviours which would not be tolerated in a normal job can actually be spun to be part of your creative genius or part of your extraordinary personality.

"So some of those people are still in place, some of them are behaving in off-the-wall ways and are enabled left, right and centre, and people bow down to them. Some of this stuff is rewarded - it depends where you are and who you are."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6389212/Off-the-wall-TV-and-radio-stars-may-be-high-on-cocaine-says-former-BBC-producer.html

kind of explains a lot about the bbc. funny no investigation goes on. how do we know the bbc licence fee has not been hijacked by drug dealers and users?

#68 jaded_jean

"If you watch the NN Politics Panel you will have seen three essentially Jewish (she worked for a Jewish PR group) spin doctors discussing the subtle merits and demerits of stiring one's tea clockwise, anti-clockwise and in a mixed way."

Ah yes the well balanced ant-Jewish hysteria.

Hitler was the same wasn't he - big on rhetoric and allegation but little to no facts to substantiate ludicrous claims.

After nearly a hundred years of far right hysteria why is there no evidence beyond your attempts at "statistics".

Your other stats show there was no Holocaust despite the fact that it is beyond dispute via Nuremburg and so many families having lost relatives or being related to those that found the camps.

If you believe your own stats on the Holocaust take them to the Djemjanjuk trial.

If you believe Jews have an unfair advantage and secretly run the world then why not go to the Equalities Commission?

You won't because you know deep down its a pack of lies and you seek only to exploit those prone to the facile trickery of your arguments.

VOLUNTARY REPATRIATION SCHEME

"Did he understand the intentions of the BNP to repatriate ethnic minorities?"

Do you understand that the Voluntary Repatriation Scheme is current government policy? See last entry in Border'sAgency link above.

#68 jaded_Jean

"What we see in all this hysterical anti-BNP talk is many people unwittingly promoting anarchism - i.e. they are pulling themselves down but can't see it"

In your own world the BNP are themselves anarchists as they are no more "statist" than Old Labour (the BNP say they are not a Nazi Party they are just Nationalists) - who fought the Nazis as did Stalin - so your views are clearly "flexible" on anarchism and statism as is your allegiance to the BNP. Some days you pretend not to be the BNP.

"National Socialism was authoritarian and hierarchical."

So you finally understand Bertrand Russell when he describes the National Socialists as no more than replacement aristocrats. Basically the ideology is just a magpie collection of stolen clothes as it was a tool to get individuals power. Hitler was amoral.

"The thing is, National Socialism works for the people against predators on people. As to racism, just remember, teh evil Nazis were allied with teh Japanese and Arab world!"

But you always neglect to provide any serious hard evidence of examples of this predatory activity. The racial conceptions you have fly in the face of the science that shows there are very few genetic differences between the races.

Marx was a Jew and your "statism" is largely derived from that analysis.

You could also point out that on your definitions the majority of the country is "anarchist" and then remind people of the way the Nazis dealt with anarchists in the Spanish Civil War and WWII.

TAZANOMICS

thegangofone (#76) If you softened your style a bit, you could try and submitting scripts to Mills and Boon as your writing is suitably disengaged from reality, and many people like that sport of stuff, especially women. Alternatively, try publishers of Harry Potter as an alternative. You could ask NN if you could be a stand in for one of the Politics Panel.

Comment on closing shot of Kirsty Wark last night. Had Damien Hurst been using her as a mixing palette? It was nearly as striking as that Peacock top!

#63 ecolizzy

"After all if the BNP did get more votes, it would only result in a few seats for them. And would probably see one of the two major parties in power anyway."

Remember you aren't the BNP! You only visited the BNP website because you believed I called you a fascist.

Its the website that the BNP claims gets more hits than all of the other parties put together.

So clearly they are an "oppressed" majority and will sweep to power at the general election.

Of course the "hysterical anti-BNP" anti-fascists will suspect that with a grand total of two Euro MEPs and a London Assembly member they are telling the odd porkie.

That would be a shock.

thegangofone ('78) "But you always neglect to provide any serious hard evidence of examples of this predatory activity."

Did you notice the Credit Crunch or have you been too 'busy'?

Have you heard of Lehman Brothers, Goldman Sachs, or Madoff? Have you looked into the NYC demographics, considered air traffic 'events' in the area, and their causes/consequences?

errata (#79) "If you softened your style a bit, you could try submitting scripts to Mills and Boon as your writing is suitably disengaged from reality, and many people like that sort of stuff, especially women." (and children).

Tonight I wonder how British society will show up.

The daily Mail was lashed over its Gately article recently.

Griffin said the Soho gay pub nail-bomb victims - by one of his own party's members - were "flaunting their perversion in front of the world's journalists, [and had] showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures disgusting".

So if he finds them disgusting blowing them up is fine.

As Johann Hari said the other day a Griffin chief lieutenant for years Tony Lecomber e was jailed for three years in the 1980s for plotting to blow up the offices of a left-wing political party. After he was released, he and a gang then beat a Jewish teacher unconscious. When he was freed after another three years inside, he was swiftly promoted through the BNP ranks. He was only ditched after he approached a Liverpool hitman to discuss how they could "take out" a cabinet minister.

These are all facts unlike for instance the refuted BNP Barnbrook claims - due to dyslexia and church bells - to local murders that never occurred.

So as Jaded_Jean says above the BNP are not like the other parties.

You could say its members are not like other human beings.

'kind of explains a lot about the bbc. funny no investigation goes on. how do we know the bbc licence fee has not been hijacked by drug dealers and users?'

About 7 years ago I stayed with a friend during in one of my street photo visits to London. This friend had a beeb person staying with them. It seems there are a lot of naughty people at the beeb. You have to wonder why the fuzz don't raid the place, would the screens go blank ?

Sorry Mim if I went off at the wrong angle earlier.

#14 jaded_Jean

"Here's where the problem is:- we don't have a left-wing party anymore. That ended with the demise of Old Labour in the 80s - at the time we were busy vilifying the USSR. British politics is now in a mess as is American and European, so the public isn't interested anymore as there isn't anything substantive to choose between the three main parties."

What you want is an Old Labour Party as in 1939-45 when they fought the evil Nazis?

If New Labour reverted to Old Labour policies the BNP would be redundant?

The Unions support the "anarchist" New Labour Party instead of the "statist" BNP?

What truly ridiculous and incoherent views you National Socialists have!

#68 Jaded_Jean

"Up go placards saying 'It's a Nazi Party'"

So why don't the BNP say they are National Socialists if they are?

Why do these people lie about their fundamental core values if they believe others should adopt their views?

If you think there is confusion about their true identity then clarify it rather than skirt around your incoherent views on National Socialism.

It may hardly be relevant if they are not National Socialists.

at 72: I am just not interested...

Whats 50 cents got to do with anything other than to glorify black getto/bling culture. Young white males pick up on this stuff just like they did with punk or the 60s hippy movement - its just counter culture being played out. 50 cent and his crew appeal to the unsophisticated and easilly led who buy into the American sub culture but to be fair Americans don't really have a culture anyhow, so the media mind manipulators easily prey on the young, the kids embrace the brand thanks to the market men. The 50 cents of this world give the illusion that anybody can be a rap artist...most kids don't achieve their dreams of becoming rich and famous, but they ape the attitude on the street and video themselves for all to see on You tube; that its somehow hip to be violent and gun carrying...they emulate their idols. Its cool to be non productive and uneducated but they'll having recording equipment coming out of their ears payed for by the local council in the vain hope that if they engage the disaffected youth maybe they'll stop killing each other. And in the mean time 50 cents gives another interview ..showing his gun wounds. This culture needs deporting 'backs' to where it came from.

Go1: the BNP does not have a monopoly on criminal behaviour. Most people in prison are not BNP members/supporters.

America is a weird place :

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20091022/tod-man-arrested-for-being-naked-in-own-870a197.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/sex-and-sin_b_308732.html

Will Kirsty and Paul be visiting Alabama ? Crikey if so I hope they watch out for anything that vibrates.

PROMISE AND FULFILLMENT (#59 and #63)

Not a lot of difference between an impossible promise, blatantly pronounced, and some other promise masked in escape-route claptrap - or, indeed, one announced, but with no intention to deliver.

Is there not a continuum: from Labour (who will manipulate the election and who can announce delayed bribes) through the Tory opposition, then the LibDems and on to UKIP and BNP? They all have more in common with each other than with us. Politics draws its own.

If we could listen to the thoughts of all the others, as we can with the BNP, much would be revealed to change the current, silly illusion. These are not nice people.

#68 JJ "It (National Socialism) focused on the family like Islam does today".

You mean family like (i)women to be inferior, need covering up, and have less rights to property and children; (ii)men should call the shots and be allowed several wives; and (iii) children should be brainwashed by learning by heart every word of an ancient prophet?

However, your #73 was spot on again, though I doubt that this human tidal wave will be mentioned on tonight's Any Questions, because only one panel member will be able to say 'I did warn you'.

THE PROBLEM WITH BELIEF/INTENSIONAL IDIOMS OF PROPOSITIONAL ATTITUDE

thegangofone (#86) "Why do these people lie about their fundamental core values if they believe others should adopt their views?"

All sorts of people, including yourself, have very muddled 'views' aka beliefs. They often say what they truly believe, even though what they believe is in fact false. Sometimes you can tell children that 5+3 doesn't equal 6 and they'll have a very hard time understanding why their belief is wrong.

A lot of what people believe about politics is false. A lot of politicians know that, but play on it.

Heads up - most people don't like baby killers, nail-bombers, paedophiles etc. These are quite rare behaviours. It is pointless making a big deal of unmarried men being bachelors. I suggest you listen up. What I have been trying to teach you is worth paying attention to. You are wasting an opportunity.

My interests are in human and other animal behaviour, not politics. Most of the issues to do with human politics are quite simple stuff relative to the problems which really interest me.

Here's something to think on:

Sub Sahahran Africa mean IQ=70 SD=15. Population of all Afrcia ~700M
S. Asia mean IQ= ~81 SD=15 - population is rapidly increasing
Europe mean IQ=100 SD=15 population falling except via immigration.

Look at the infrastructure of sub Saharan Afrcia and S. Asia.

What is going to happen to this country as the foreign population increases?

This is really simple demographics.

See ETS video. And see California as teh USA's first failed state.

barrie (#91) The thrust of my post was the New York vs Michigan point.

Maybe I'm wasting my time here ;-)?

PS. I may do my typos, but I try to cast a few pearls too :-)

indignantindegene (#92) You mean family like (i)women to be inferior"

A loaded word 'inferior'. They are inferior to men in height and muscle mass. They are inferior to men in IQ too. They are inferior to men in brain weight/size. Nature has designed this to be so. It is true across mammals, especially obvious in primates. These are the facts. This doe snot mean that women should be treated badly. If you look at Islam and the Qu'ran, or ask normal (non Western) educated Muslim women they will probably tell you that Islam is fair on this score. In fact, if you ask most mature European women they will acknowledge that men are their better in many areas. With that comes responsibility and duty of care.

It is quite different with respect to rights to equal opportunity in many areas. That is what has been lost sight of. But equal rights to work is demographically a killer. Literally. This has made hordes of males redundant and brought down the birth rate where we can't afford it. It has also created a lot of very unhappy women. I fear someone is waging demographic warfare against Gentile Europeans. They are now waging it against Muslims too. Sadly, on this point the BNP is correct, and many in academia know this to be true. It shows up in the statistics. One can not ignore the facts without being incompetent.

Have you looked at the NYC demographics I have linked to?

IT DEPENDS ON WHAT TIMESCALE, AND ON YOUR PERSONAL IMPERATIVES (#94)

"Maybe I'm wasting my time here ;-)?"

Looking back on my life and forward to disassembly - personal, planetary, galactic, cosmic and . . . I am unable to define "wasting".
And let's not get into time!! (:o)

Thank me - I never listened to my mother!

jesus christ loved the working class....that's why he made so many of them

VIOLENT CRIME FIGURES MASSAGING?

The problem is, as cognitive ability falls, and recruitment according to local population base-rates goes up, efficiacy must go down.

This has been going on for years now. Telling people about it is getting to be pointless as the recipients just seem incredibly dense.

The Communities Minister last night. Well meaning but clueless = ideal anarchistic politician. Clever, aren't they?

Interesting read :

https://discovermagazine.com/2002/nov/feat50/

mervs thought for the day

"It is hard to see how the existence of institutions that are “too important to fail” is consistent with their being in the private sector," he said. "Encouraging banks to take risks that result in large dividend and remuneration payouts when things go well, and losses for taxpayers when they don’t, distorts the allocation of resources and management of risk."

the oligarchy and their political spokespersons won't like that? it would mean they can no longer pretend what they are doing has any risk in it. the mask slips.