Friday, 30 January, 2009

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If the report on the BBC News website is true, I hope that the protest (extremely civilized, though illegal) is directed at the management of the company, rather at the foreign workers.
A foreign company (Total) subcontracts a big job to an American company, which in turn subcontracts it to an Italian company. If, as the commentators on the BBC website say, it is likely that, because of the nature of the job, the contractors can use their staff, then what's the protest about? I am Italian working in IT. I am a consultant, so I am here only until someone asks me to stay, don't worry!
Few years ago I was invited here by British companies, because of the lack of skills available. This was just after I had lost a possible contract in Italy because the bank I was in business with had been taken over by Natwest, who brought all their staff and IT systems. Later I couldn't work in a European Space Agency project round the corner where I lived in Rome, because an English company won the contract and they brought their staff. Then I was then invited by a British company to work for ESA in Germany. It is called the Common Market: even UKIP wouldn't get out of it. Although I sympathise with the workers, who may have difficulty in moving around as I do, they and their Unions should have contested the management decision earlier.

A WHOLE NEW MEANING . . .

Brown has improved on 'British Jobs for British Workers' AS MENTIONED ABOVE! His speech writers have brought forth the following mole-hill:
"HISTORY IS NOT DESTINY" - hurrah! The depth, and historical aplomb of this earth-shattering pronouncement, is only transcended by the realisation that 'DAVOS'
stands for: Daft Aphorism Void Of Substance. Assuming each worthy will lay such a delight before an eager world, I cannot wait for Sarko's oef.
What is the French for 'Roll up that map of Europe'?

Surely Gordon Brown cannot legally say "British jobs for British workers" because this falls foul of the "freedom of movement/work" rules of the European Union? Presumably GB's non-protectionist answer to the British protesting strikers is, "Get on your bike and go to Italy (or any other EU country) and find yourselves jobs there" - ? Can in practice British workers find jobs in other EU countries? Are they actually employable there? Even if they could and they were, would they go? We should be told .....

Do please have a look at the brief film clip on this story..

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7859976.stm

They are trying to draw a distinction between Polish workers, with whom they have been working perfectly well, and who have been on the same terms and conditions, and casual labour being brought in employed by third party contractors.

Of course, this does not necessarily mean that things could not turn nasty or that xenophobia could not be whipped up by those trying to exploit it for their own ends.

Nor does it mean that the Government should be complacent about the risk that such protests could become violent as has happened elsewhere in Europe.

But this is a complex story which needs to be investigated thoroughly avoiding some of the 'nationalistic protectionism' knee jerk reactions seen elsewhere.

Re the rifinery protests: It was obvious to those of us with a few brain cells that this would happen sooner or later. You cannot enforce 'equality' across umpteen EU countries against peoples wishes! All this happy-clappy stuff might be tolerable when times are good, but when jobs are scarce and the mortgage is due, the indiginous people of *any* country feel they must be first in the queue befoe foreigners.

Hhhhmmm all these workers trotting around Europe won't exactly help "Global Warming" will it?!

I suppose it's just a case of divide and rule, and the company always wins.

#2 Yes the unions were complaining about the companies, and didn't blame the "foreign" workers.

WORDS

sanitychecker (#4) "Surely Gordon Brown cannot legally say "British jobs for British workers" because this falls foul of the "freedom of movement/work" rules of the European Union?"

He can SAY it, what he can't do is implement it. In fact, HMG couldn't possibly implement it except in the Public Sector where they are the employer, but it may not even be legal there. So, he can SAY "British jobs for British workers", meaning people in Britain should have jobs in Britain (alongside European people who would also like to have jobs here), it's just that employers can't (easily) discriminate without risking litigation. TOTAL, of course isn't a British company, it's just IN Britain, a bit like HONDA and many others. High literacy ability is de rigueur in these legalistic, cosmopolitan, times.

Post 2. Excellent point well made.

THE OLD EQUALITY PLOY (#6)

Well said, Blurtman. That trusty tome The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, refers to the race of alpha males called the Silastic Armourfiends who, if locked alone in a room would, reliably, beat themselves up, such was their urge to fight.
Young human bloke is much the same. He is as quick to thump anyone different, as a greyhound is to chase a fake cabbage-patch rabbit, given half a reason, and a shot of booze.
You might think that John Reid or Pressa would have instructed softie Gordon in the ways of basic bloke. Odd lot - politicians.

The mass oil refinery walkout is part of a new era of worldwide indigenous empowerment. It's truly heartwarming to see the indigenous British workers finally standing up for their rights, in stark defiance of these multi-national corporations and the global elite. It's also been happening in Bolivia:

Bolivia sets new global high mark for indigenous rights

"Bolivia's successful referendum process is precedent-setting with respect to indigenous empowerment worldwide," says Robert Albro, an expert on social and indigenous movements in Latin America at American University in Washington.

The new constitution contains over 400 articles but its centerpiece is the effort to "decolonize" Bolivian society

Bolivia's new constitution sets a precedent because of its degree of detail to guarantee the political, cultural, and economic rights of the majority indigenous population by a president of indigenous descent. "Usually such constitutional reforms have been carried out to better 'recognize' indigenous peoples but by largely nonindigenous governments,"



Meanwhile back in the UK, the indigenous British workers have a Labour government who accuses them of being "lazy" if they don't want to go and live on a floating prison ship, like the imported contractors.

To summarise:
UK Labour government: wants people to live on cold metal boxed prison ships for the benefit of multinational corporations and the global elite.
Bolivian government: empowering the indigenous majority and striving to "decolonise" Bolivia for the benefit of the indigenous majority.

BarrieSingleton @ [33]

I do enjoy you when you're on-topic (tiresome off topic imho and you're on notice I'm adopting a zero-tolerance policy on that).

I looked through some of your posts yesterday. You write witty and splendid verse. Always welcome here.

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imagine 600 Italians watching as 600 British electricians started work in a shipyard in Malaga and giving the finger to their Italian counterparts and telling them 'sorry. the Eu rules' It just wouldn't happen. Brown knows it, we all know it. British companies have driven a coach and horses through European legislation in the protection of British jobs. It is ten times easier to fire British workers than any other country in Europe. Our energy companies are owned by the French and Germans, our waste and recycling industries are owned by the French and all have the capacity to bring in their own labour usually from country of origin. When these things affect the French they block the ports, strangle Paris and generally get in the face of Sarkosy, not in Blighty, we don't do protest any more but after todays news....maybe we still do....

#8 JadedJean

As ever recently the goose steppers spout off - but where is the beef?

These cowards don't belong to a party (or a known party) and will spout off about race "realism" and talk about genes (not Levis, though they probably would not know how to put them on) and there being no Holocaust. I am an "anarchist and a Trotskyite" (i.e. a Lib Dem voter) because I "paint Hitler as darkly as possible" for "party political reasons".

Yes the mainstream political parties are shaking in their shoes right now.

But who are these goose steppers?

Do they demand air time?

Are they trying to force air time by depositing their garbage on this site?

They are not the BNP cos they said so.

They are not Nazis cos they said so.

So what are they trying to achieve?

Zip.

Maybe they are nihilists. They have no purpose and urge no purpose.

They are futile.

Will they invade Poland? All six of them (and some may be multiple logins)? Nah!


They are a waste of your attention.

Just recently in the news Gordon Brown said, “We’re all in this together. He warned against the “deglobalization threat,” saying countries faced with the worldwide recession should not retreat into economic protectionism. The Prime Minister said, “If what happens to a bank in one country can within minutes have devastating effects for banks on a different continent, then only a truly international response of policy and governance can be effective.”

In addition to what Mr. Brown says: Separating from one another contradicts the process we are now in, which is happening under the influence of the forces of Nature. Hence, separation will lead us to greater and more diverse crises. We must understand that the only thing that can help us to overcome the current crisis is to draw closer to each other. What’s needed is a gradual change of the social consciousness, making it planetary, global, and integral. It must approach the rule, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” which is the condition of the global world’s existence.

THE GREAT MAKEOVER

In a future Newsnight, it would be good if Paul Mason provided a large table showing HMGs revenue sources for comparative purposes, i.e how much from Income Tax, how much from Corporation Tax, NI, fuel duties etc.

Some viewers may be surprised given the stories often told about the relative contributions.

For example, given that Income Tax contributes so much, why would New Labour (a member of the Socialist International) care much if Income Tax comes from German, Italian, Spanish or indigenous Britons? After all, they're not National Socialists, they're International Socialists (I recall we used to all them Trotskyites before they had a makeover as 'Harry Potter and The Third Way'. Is that not really why the 4th International went quiet (see how LM morphed into SPIKED for some tamed bolshy ones)?

ABOLISHING NATURE

Nature is riddled with prejudice; nature embraces suspicion of 'the different'; nature would never set up the EU project.

The overheated minds of politicians - some of the most unnatural members of our species, who live lives of judicious falsehood - having set themselves free from our control, are playing crazy games with US as their pawns. But they have forgotten that nature's laws still apply and dictate where the different types of pawn may properly move.

Break nature's laws, and only one outcome can result. We have seen these upstarts wreck procreation, birth, suckling, nurture and learning. Now they are tampering with the 'territorial imperative' (Ardrey). There is no profanity dire enough to characterise these fools.

NARCISSISTIC POOR INSIGHT

rinpoche1 (#12) I'm sure I speak for many when I say we all very much appreciate your having appointed yourself blog thought police person.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

JJ @ [19] (again - apologies to the group, apparently I have to)

I've now looked at your YouTube link you give @ [34] 7 January 2007. It's a therapist talking about the difficulty of counselling persons with a narcissistic personality disorder because they reject the therapist being narcissist see.

I also googled "the Apprentice" you said I had to 'think' and gather it's the name of a TV reality show involving Sir Alan Amstrad and hopeful would-be entrepreneurs.

Well I really don't know what to think to tell the truth.

Narcissist definitely isn't me as far as I know (but I can live with it ok and fair enough I do still w**k a lot even if glory days of old are sadly long past) but what to make of being an apprentice and rejecting therapy?

Is it perhaps this JJ? that ages and ages ago I once noted a remark you made about Iran and briefly posted an appreciative supporting remark (Middle East affairs being one of my things).

So that perhaps you thought I was one of your acolytes, apprentices call it what you will, and you were so to speak grooming me for high office in the new JJ order of things to come and now feel bitterly rejected because you feel I'm attacking you, even using taboo words on my personal website you somehow tracked down to describe you?

Is that it?

Well relax JJ, really!

Although there can never be anything deep between the two of us I'm not attacking you in any way let alone your thought!

Just your long boring posts which fill up my web pages so relentlessly every time I log in.

That's all it is honest! Not once have I ever attacked your thought I swear it on the 'Origin of Species' or any other scientific peer reviewed discourse you care to name. Really really cross my heart and hope to die!

Hope that sets your mind at rest a little bit anyway.

But that unfortunately still leaves 'purging' the bit I have to but there you go out of my control sorry.

What did you mean by that?

But don't feel you absolutely have to reply though I dare say you will. Speaking strictly for myself I don't give a toss.

GRANDIOSITY AND SELF-DECEPTION

rinpoche1 (#21) I suspect I have absolutely no hope of courting you (or thegangofone, 13thMan etc) as acolytes of truth and good sense. As to purging, there it was merely a reference to recruitment and retention in our narcissistic times (see other links to Hare on 'Snakes in Suits' in the markets and how ASPD shares half of NPD's factor structure). Anyone who saw the recent programme on Sugar/Amstrad might have noted that his IT business went to the wall through poor quality control of hard disks, something which he characteristically blamed on his suppliers (it seems he had a naive faith in them just as his customers did in him). It had nothing to do with his desire to make enormous profits out of the non-discerning of course as anyone who saw the Sophie episode of 'The Apprentice' over lollies for kids will recall. This migt make some ponder on the concepts of incorrigibility, lack of insight into behaviour and perhaps even give a thought or two to height as a potential marker of a possible NCAH/CYP21 C6P21 link to odd stress responses and the nature of mendacity.

In the USSR, there were allegedly regular purges of party membership to keep it healthy. This meant turnover of membership. Those purged were not shot, gassed, or even de-loused, they were expected to set good examples and purged if they did not. Allegedly, party members were encouraged to be self-critical, not double-dealers. House of Lords members and lowly Newsnight bloggers prone to grandiosity take note.

I just want to congratulate marcomas2000 on his/her lovely style or writing and mastery of English. I used to work with Italians and they drove me nuts because whenever I edited their papers I ended up with virtually no words that actually meant anything. I just wonder if you know what I'm talking about, do a lot of Italians use words cosmetically or was I just working with a group of idiots?

THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME (C/O HOLLYWOOD)?

doctormisswest (#23)

"I just wonder if you know what I'm talking about, do a lot of Italians use words cosmetically or was I just working with a group of idiots?"

It's not just an Italian thing alas, it's endemic. It's getting worse too.

Just imagine future DAVOS gatherings full of such narcissists (I couldn't find the Newsnight clip with her incoherent views on the Credit Crunch). I'm sure that such people don't see what's wrong with this behaviour, but try to imagine (normal) men talking/behaving this way and being able to credibly 'rule the world'. Watch the news and count the dominance of over-made up female presenters who switch between smiling and serious face almost minute by minute.

There's an inequality there.

ONE DAY EVERY BRITISH WORKER WILL HAVE A BRITISH JOB FOR 45 MINUTES.

There is a depressing parallel between Blair's '45 minutes' sleight-of-tongue, and Brown's 'Jobs for Brits' coup-de-crass. It is the DELIBERATE use of words to create an impression (in the impressionable) while leaving open a syntactic escape route.

This type of deceit typifies Great British Politics, and all who sail (sink) in her. Day after day we are manipulated by a weird self-reproducing, self-rewarding, self-serving, self-perpetuating, detached group of 'I'm Alright Jacks' (and Jackesses).

We have been neutered, clipped, docked, emasculated, de-beaked, shackled and penned, while being fed doped fodder. We are truly worthy of the title 'pathetic'.

There is a boatload of Italian invaders bobbing off-shore. How long before the French gain a beach-head at Chef Plagee and the Russians arrive in Scotland with snow still on their boots? Oh - they have.

#9
Thank you for your comment.
#23
It's a bit off topic, I know, but I owe some answers. I'll get back to the point below.
First, I am a man, Marco is may first name. Second,the language. I believe that I can say that Italian students learn English at school as their British counterparts learn any foreign language, and that means "not very well". The difference is in the size of the "vocabulary needed to speak" in ordinary life. The English language has a huge vocabulary and English speaking people have the right expression for each occasion. As they have those, they don't need to alter their voices to express feelings. Italian (Spanish and French) have much smaller vocabularies and people need to "tune" the language to their feelings (hence the gesticulation and the shouting in Italy...). In the written language punctuation signs are used to guide the reader through the sentiments of the writer. Pupils learn to master it in the early days of Primary School, as the almost 100% phonetic characteristics of the language make it "readable" by young readers in a matter of weeks. Try to translate that in English, as beginners always do, and you get complete nonsense for native speakers.
More on the topic. As you can imagine, there's a war (of words, luckily, we don't need any more) going on in the press.
I believe that is more likely that Italians read comments on the BBC website than Britons doing the same on Italian blogs. Therefore I can confirm that "stereotypes are out again" and I feel ashamed. Blatantly untrue reports on the front pages of the on-line Italian national press. I have rarely seen a more civilised industrial action in my life (and I have seen so many of them in my country). Yet, some of the national papers in Italy have put in the mouth of the protesters horrible xenophobic phrases, to say nothing about the retaliation by depicting the English workforce by the usual stereotypes used overseas (you know it, either always drinking tea and doing nothing, or completely drunk and doing the same). Many Italians living in the UK (including myself, of course) from all walks of life submitted strong complaints to the paper (they have been published). As I said in my previous message, I am one of the people that could complain about EU regulations, but I look at my son, 12, and I see him reading his English, Italian and German books and magazines. Wherever he stays he feels at home. There are no British or Italian jobs for him, they are just jobs. And I feel that my small initial sacrifice has brought a lot of good.

https://www.newstatesman.com/africa/2007/10/watson-intelligence-race

13thMan (#27) Be sure to supplement your reading

I feel an apology is worthy to Marco on behalf of my British bretheren, we should feel ashamed if this blows up into a racial thing. The workers are not to blame for any of this it is the politicians, they did not think this through, as someone said earlier when things are going swimmingly, plenty fo jobs, money and full order books regional problems do not seem to matter but as a few of us in these columns have warned for yonks these things can easily blow up. By some strange coincidence the BBC are running 'World at War' on Saturday afternoons and all the indicators of the thirties are nearly with us today, national boundaries and the protection of 'what is ours is ours' is starting to emerge and with China predicting forty million unemployed and that is only one country we must ensure that what has happened in the last week is taken seriously at Davos but I am not holding my breath.

leftieoddbod (#29) "I feel an apology is worthy to Marco on behalf of my British bretheren, we should feel ashamed if this blows up into a racial thing"

I thought the Italians were Europeans?

#29
No need to apologise. I believe that we got to compete to survive. I haven't had my mum and dad feeding me until I was 40 as many other Italians have, thanks to the huge "funny money" invented by our governments in the '80. It was public debt jealously kept in the country by the supernatural tendency of the Italian people to save money. But it can't be done easily any more. Markets are open now and GB's debt can end up easily anywhere in the world. I totally agree with the British workers and the Italian workers. They are both right.
On this side of the Channel, in the '80 a certain Lady had a different view. Sell public assets inefficiently managed to the private sector and she relaxed the rules for foreign investments. Great idea, big money. Unfortunately, she didn't realise the downside: the water distributioin system sold to is mainly in French hands. nPower (electricity) is 100% in German hands and you can find dozens of more examples.
Total is a Franch company. They awarded the contract to whoever they saw fit. What would you think that they would reply to the Prime Minister complaining? "Au revoir", with the probable loss of jobs for everybody involved there. It's tough, but with private multinationals, it looks as politicians cannot do a lot. Except for starting wars, of course.

STICKING TO WHAT WE DO BEST (#31)

"Except for starting wars, of course."

Marco points the way. It is not the European who is the finest fighter in the world - oh no. Do not all leaders in trouble at home start a war abroad? Go for it Gordy!
Let's invade Europe.

"And we'll drum them up (any waterway you care to name) like we drummed them long ago!" Economy cured! Internment should solve the rest.

I'll get me kilt.

Steve-London posted this ararchistic gem from New Labour earlier in the week. If anyone has any doubt that New Labour are essentially made-over Trots serving naked capitalism, just spend a little time reading through this. Having followed other New Labour legislation as it passed through the two Houses, it was often like watching the 'We Don't Do Government Party' busy at work.

My Personal Views -


British jobs for British workers

Sorry , maybe I missed these -
1) How long is this Total contract with the Italian workers for ?
2) Is it just to build something and the Italians have the skills that the local workers or unemployed did not have at the time of signing the contract ?
3) Whatever they are building , who's going to operate it once it's built (long term jobs)?

Still on a good note , any investment in capacity (in the UK) by Total must been seen as good , but like I say above I need more information to form an opinion.


Paul Mason's piece -

Interesting quotes

If you walk into any job centre , you will find a lot of jobs clustered around the minimum wage.Now economists are divided how big an impact migration has on wages, those that think it has a downward impact say it is particularly noticeable at the bottom of the scale.

I've been told that last month Britain blocked the inclusion of this specific social claws into the new version of the Lisbon Treaty.

#33

Thanks Jean , but credit were it's due , I nicked it off another blog site :)

Post 14. Geography wasn't your strongest point at school was it?

I imagine 600 Italians in Malaga would probably be having a beer in the shade as they would almost certainly be tourists.

Malaga being the main holiday airport for the Costa del Sol in Southern Spain.

I imagine Spanish electricians might be a little more upset unless of course they are working for Alsthom building new trains for the Northern Line which Red Ken rather assumed Alsthom would be building at Washwood Heath in Birmingham when he signed the contract giving them the job.

Alsthom then shut the factory and decided to build them abroad

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3006300.stm

Steve-London (#35) Not to worry, Gordon and chums probably got the idea off someone like Lev Davidovich Bronstein (aka Leon Trotsky) or or Yigael Gluckstein (aka Tony Cliff) or Isaac Blank (aka Ted Grant) or someone else along those lines given the notorious source of party funding we had exposed. I suspect he wouldn't care to credit his sources though.

#15 thegangofone - you might wish to add this to your arguments, there are victims yet to be counted:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8336830

caution: distressing content

It's ironic that the Roman Catholic church should show two such different faces regarding this issue.

#27 13thMan - very interesting article, thank you. It's good to get a different perspective on this subject here.

MECHANISED NOT CIVILISED (#38)

The tendency to mindless destruction is not confined to man - but he is exceedingly good at it. When the Crusaders annihilated a city's inhabitants - old, young pregnant, helpless, they were only limited, in the scale of that horror, by lack of technology, numbers available for slaughter, and daylight hours. Such times had myriad other examples of merciless violence.

We progress. We have night vision.

By the time that same inhumanity, innate to mankind (read Zimbardo) was unleashed through Hitler's Germany, the capacity for much greater slaughter was at hand.

We progress. Super-destructive, smart weapons.

The nature of mankind is unchanged - no smarter; but the technology is now in place for a level of killing, beyond count by any survivors.

Fighting is innate to man. Technological advance is tantamount to worship of the great god Mammon - our god.

We decline.

What is missing, is any hint of wisdom's triumph over the present mix of immature hedonism-and-tantrums; what we term 'civilisation'. Sadly, counting more dead will not purge mankind's base nature from the living. You cannot shock or shame the human animal, however much anguish you engender in the cerebral. The future is as bleak as the past but it will be a technologically enhanced bleakness.

"When I was a child, I was unpleasant like a child; now I am a man, I have put aside childish things and become unbelievably aberrant and dangerous. If you are stupid enough to elevate me to a position of power, you have only yourselves to blame."

SEEING THROUGH EXPLOITATION FOR GAIN

RadiantPoachedEgg (#38) And so, the relentless programme to induce feelings of collective guilt in Gentile Europeans at large (white males in particular, white females having long been used as another oppressed victim group along with 'Blacks') continues in furtherance of Jewish political hegemony.

There was a war in the East. Lots of Jews died, lots of Russians died, lots of Germans died. These areas were the homelands of European Jewry, and European Bolshevism. I'm sure there were also attrocities, just as there will have been in Gaza recently.

But more people need to wake up to how this game is played, looking at the inequalities. For example, where are all the British Chinese peers given that thus group is equal in intelligence and base-rate in the British population. Up to 10% of the House of Lords is Jewish. This reveals the the true agenda and scope of the mendacity, see the Cash for Honours, and Cash for Amendments issues for why this is potentially so important.

*Since Dawkins' 1985 review article of the book by Rose, Kamin and Lewontin (all Jewish), Burt has been rehabilitated given later twin studies bear out his original correlations. Note that more people believe in astrology than Darwinian evolution - people don't require much to believe in what they believe. Anyone who wants people punished for asking questions is to be viewed with great concern. One must surely ask what they get out of such censure/censorship. See post war Germany - has this guilt programme not been extended Westwards? I think it has. It worked on Germany, why not the rest of Europeans. Who benefits?

#40

I don't seem to remember addressing you, my dear, but I'm not surprised you've taken it upon yourself to comment.

I would find it rather surprising that the Roman Catholic church would collaborate in such a programme as you imagine, but I already realise that it would take a lot more than that to disabuse you of your convictions.

In the light of your very particular opinions on gender and 'breeding' I'd be interested to know:

1/ Whether you're male or female, and

2/ Whether you're a parent?

RadiantPoachedEgg (#41)

1. On the Roman Catholic church. (Note: not enough surprises you - 'surprise' is the sine qua non for learning/behaviour change.

2. As these are not my 'very particular opinions', but empirical facts which are widely reported in the scientific literature, my personal details are not relevant. That you ask for them illustrates that you do not underatand the nature of objective analysis and discourse.

"Student Ali Nawaz-ish has passed 23 A levels in subjects including pure mathematics, travel and tourism, and sociology.

He got 21 A grades - a B and a C.

This all goes to show that the race "realist" goose steppers need to understand that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races.

Mainstream scientists, and Nobel Prize winners, are not "all Jews".

Risible cooked statistics doth not an argument make.

#42

How curious it is that only the opinions you share seem to meet the criteria of "empirical facts". The concept that there might be empirical facts with which you disagree clearly cannot be allowed to exist. That way madness might lie.

Total objectivity is an impossibility. Your response to my questions was utterly predictable, which was why I asked them. It is also revealing of the degree of detachment your strange opinions reflect.

Have a nice day, my dear, wrap up warm if you should venture out.

theganofone (#43) "This all goes to show that the race "realist" goose steppers need to understand that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races."

No, the above statement just illustrates that a) you simply don't understand what others have been telling you, b) that you have no grasp of statistics or genetics, and c) that you do not know how to use the logical quantifiers despite many efforts to teach you. It would not be unreasonable to infer that the 'science masters' to which you referred, wee just past 'science teachers'.

I repeat, it is a demonstrable fact that you do not understand the subjects under discussion and that you do not have even a rudimentary grasp of the scientific method one would exact of a good Key Stage 3 or 4 pupil. Nobody who understood the nature of distributions would make such crass mistakes.

RadiantPoachedEgg (#44) "How curious it is that only the opinions you share seem to meet the criteria of "empirical facts". The concept that there might be empirical facts with which you disagree clearly cannot be allowed to exist."

You haven't presented any evidence, you have just contradicted like an Oppositionally Defiant adolescent. Furthermore, it isn't a matter disagreeing or disagreeing. I have been presenting the consensus amongst the experts in the fields I have referred to. I suggest you give that some serious thought rather than assume that all posters to this blog are amateurs like yourself.

BRAVE HEART

James G Brown has taken to shutting his eyes and screwing up his face, when confronted with questions he would, manifestly, rather not have put to him.
This was not part of his repertoire before. Does this mean green shoots or shot foot?
It looks like 'avoidance' to me. Any of you behavioural specialists want to comment?

WILL THE RED-LINES HOLD?

barrie (#47) You noted that his choice of words in the context of British jobs for British people was especially circumlocutory today.

I repeat the (now ratified by the UK) Lisbon Treaty's ARTICLE 21 - NON-DISCRIMINATION>

"1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited. "

If/when Frattini has his way and brings in 20 million more into ther EU from S Asia and Africa to make up for the low EU birth-rates, it will be the big employers who benefit from cheaper labour. As I said in an earlier post, the INCOME tax revenue will be the same so why would the member states' governments care, National Socialism (Socialism in One Country) is evil, 'freedom' (anarchism) is much better (for some).

barrie (#47) Supplement to #48 (esp. p2).

I don't know how many of you have read about Jeremy being chased and attacked in London by a fanatic. When Jeremy tried to reason with the guy, all he got was abuse. Witnesses were appalled by the scene.

Source: https://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/150277/Newsnight-hardman-Jeremy-Paxman-chased-onto-a-tube-train-by-a-raging-Palestinian-supporter.html

ARTICLE 21: "ANY DISCRIMINATION IS PROHIBITED". (#48)

OK, Lord EU; though I fail to see why you spend time giving examples - am I missing something? Does not 'any' read as 'all'? Am I MEANT to miss something? (JJ?)

I had the same problem when I tried to read the draft of the original constitution - it appeared to have been typed by an infinite number of monkeys, and proof read by a soiled Lord; the most bizarre constructions were incorporated. It swung from infantile to opaque.

SO: No pairing for love. Bang goes 'choose and book'. Ross has a job for life.

Oh dear - it just has to be FOOL OR KNAVE time AGAIN!

I'll get me euthanasia kit. (Or am I denying my right to life?)

ABUSIVE PARLIAMENT, ABUSIVE TV PRESENTERS, ABUSIVE NOBODIES? (#50)

Who do these people think they are? You don't hear the Royal Family behaving like that.

barrie (#51) "I had the same problem when I tried to read the draft of the original constitution - it appeared to have been typed by an infinite number of monkeys, and proof read by a soiled Lord; the most bizarre constructions were incorporated. It swung from infantile to opaque."

Those who didn't think it read that way were the ones to worry about, and even the Parliamentarians whose responsible for overseeing EU legislation said as much. It was, as some on the EU Scrutiny Committee said, intentionally opaque, but what could they do?

I've said a number of times that we should all be far more critical of what's being done as it's anarchistic and this government has a mandate. They have to break up the original EU states in order to create the statelets which will become the basic EU administrative regions (NUTS, in he UK we refer to these as Regional Development Agencies - like London, the NE etc - each about 6m in size). To make this work they have to undermine their own central power base - this is very non USSR, as it favours entreprenurism and big business - e.g. Tesco, TOTAL, etc.

Unions have no chance, they are far too like soviets.

I reckon once one sees this anarchism/bolshevism for what it is, i.e anti-statism as the original largely Jewish led revolution in 1917 Russia (it was really just anti-Tsar) this all makes a horrible sense - just don't confuse it with Stalinist welfare statism - that's what's being eroded (i.e our Civil Service run Public Sector). Thatcher and Blair used all sorts of tools - equalities legislation (women, gays, race-relations legislations), privatization, market testing, i.e. every form of class conflict they could to foment permanent revolution/chaos/confusion in order to achieve this Balkanization.

JJ # 48
"I repeat the (now ratified by the UK) Lisbon Treaty's ARTICLE 21 - NON-DISCRIMINATION"

"1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited."

Discrimination is a fundamental process throughout nature; evolution depends upon it whether for better or worse. As far as I remember, the original attempt (to rob us of the power and benefits of discrimination) began with race relations laws that referred to UNFAIR discrimination, but since then the very word discrimination has become pejorative.

Well, I'm to old to change, and I happily plead guilty, without remorse.
I discriminated on gender grounds (chosing a female wife and rejecting advances from males); later discriminated on grounds of belief (divorcing her for believing that we should remain in UK); then discriminated on grounds of age and race (chosing an African partner of half my age); oops, and I often discriminated in employment, giving jobs to clean, respectable looking folk, rejecting others with tatoos, face implants, and any who cannot speak the Queen's English properly. The result has been success in life and love. Three rousing choruses of "I Did it MY Way".

RATS AND REWARDS (#53)

No one (with the notable exception of Alastair Campbell) can be in any doubt that Blair got the full set of rewards he craved in return for selling us down the river.
But, he was a PM and timed it almost to perfection (more by default than skill).

But (apologies for repeating the question) what is the mind-set of a minister or bog-standard MP who votes away their own power (more properly ours) to the EU? Is it some mad 'New Jerusalem' image of the EU that they have, or just personal gain as usual? If so, how does it work?

Am I right in thinking the Lisbon treaty can now morph into a completely different beast, that could have the power to 'take us over COMPLETELY' were it so minded? Is that the gist of your 'red line' header JJ?

NEWSNIGHT: Might you put gum-shoe Crick on this one?

LET HIM (sic) WHO IS WITHOUT PREJUDICE CAST THE FIRST STONE.

No wonder they set lawyers to advise on drafting laws. Article 21 must be a lawyer's wet dream; whether defence, attack - or just standing about getting rich.

Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams never wrote anything so surreal. JJ seems to have some sort of handle on all this but I am little boy lost.

Never mind, I have my answer in the ballot box. I am not a number, I am a free man.

They did me their way.

JadedJean @ [22]

"As to purging, there it was merely a reference to recruitment and retention in our narcissistic times"

Oh well that explains it then.

(Missed the Sophie episode in "The Apprentice" - sorry)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

JJ @ [46]

You characterise RadiantPoachedEgg as an 'amateur'.

By implication then you are not?

Can we have your scientific credentials please?

Are you for example published in the peer-reviewed literature?

My quarrel with you is not what you post here but the multiple times every day you post essentially the same content and often in detailed scientific language few of us can reasonably expect to understand.

At the very least we should know something of you in judging what credence to give you.

You had no hesitation in linking my personal website at [34] 7 January 2009 to make a point so convoluted ( [21] and [22] this page refers), and private that it must be considered as an essentially private gesture on your part (at the very least you were guilty of the most basic lack of empathy in using the word 'purging' as you did).

Don't you think it's time now you stepped forward out of the shadows and the comfortable anonymity offered you by this forum?

Thank you rinpoche1 for your excellently phrased criticism. That has been my problem exactly. I feel harrassed when I post my views on here, and I have been peer reviewed (though not neccessarily on the views I post here). I have been very surprised at the extent to which this stalking behaviour has been tolerated on the blog to say nothing of the content of some of the attacking posts. I find some of the comments about women and jews very offensive and not at all convincing from a cultural evolutionary perspective.

Good point from Hillside too, it did used to be unfair discrimination and Hillside cleverly depicted how dropping the 'unfair' has made a mockery of life itself. So much these days is coming unravelled because we have neglected to teach and use language with the precision and nuance that we once did. I watched Arena tonight and even though I know about the Footlights it was really interesting to learn how truly embedded that tradition of freedom and skill with words is, in the very oldest part of our culture, my culture anyway.

I just read Mistress's link to Jeremy's ordeal - any bets on a statue of a chewed ear going up in the Gaza strip next month?

leftie - 'the workers are not to blame for this' - they're all workers, the foreign workers who've come over and the british workers who've been supplanted on their own turf ( how does the new jobs market square with current elitist ideas on food provenance?) and are being rude to the incomers - the simple truth is that the working class is treated as a servant class. Which takes me back to my arguments against statistics - a good read of history shows that we have moved from slave to serf to servant to 'working class'. Now is the time for the next push towards removing unfair discrimination in the economy against the manual professions.

Words are all very well, but someone's got to plough the fields and scatter the good and non-metaphorical seed.

By the bye, I don't see anarchism much but I do see lots of highly organised and largely competitive cultures - autonomous communities according to EC documentation posted on the Civil Liberties.org website. Life these days is lots of team games the funniest of all being the UK's decision to take on Moscow in the next Eurovision Song contest! The UK has gone sadly down hill under Thatcherism and New Labour but, hey, it's still one of the few countries in the world where you can laugh at pretentiousness!

doctormisswest @ [60]

Thank you for support. I can well understand that many must feel intimidated by some of the posters in this forum. Just consider JJ's reaction to RadiantPoachedEgg - a fair and politely put criticism was met with outright hostility.

In general I am astonished that the moderators permit the degree of spam and multiple egocentric posting that goes on in the forum. It makes the forum well-nigh useless for its purpose of commenting on Newsnight and given only a few more posters allowed the latitude of say 'JadedJean' and 'barriesingleton' would make it unfit even for their own abuse of it - they would never find their own droppings.

Over the next month I shall extensively archive the spamming that goes on in your forum, asess its anti-social potential and report back to the BBC.

I didn't know we had taken on Moscow in Eurovision! I shall email my Pamyat friends directly ... ;-)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

rinpoche1 (#61) "multiple egocentric posting"

This is exactly what you are doing whether you see this or not. You should try to write about what is going on in the world rather than about your own personal opinions but I suspect you may not know the difference. This scotoma is a common failing amongst those seduced as 'useful idiots' by post-modern neo-Marxists, as it was part of their implicit Lysenkoist education/indoctrination.

'NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BRITISH WORKERS...'

sotto voce (or Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Austrian, Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Finnish, Polish...or those of fifteen other EU states).

Strikes at Lindsey Oil Refinery

On Newsnight Friday, the spokesman for Total explained during a telephone interview “the contracted Italian workers are paid the same wage as British workers if not more.” Forgive me if Im a little slow to understand his argument – If its cheaper to employ British workers to construct an extra unit at the oil refinery (which doesnt sound to me like a highly technical job) in the U.K., whats the companys incentive of flying foreign workers all the way from Italy and Portugal (and paying for their accommodation and expenses while they are here) to do the job? I say, cant blame the workers for being furious, as they seem to be discriminated on their home turf which is totally unacceptable. The UK government should step up their foot and do something about this blatant abuse of trust regarding EUs open market policies. The Employment Minister Mr McFadden was wrong to suggest that the strike is an act of economic protectionism. It is good to keep foreign trade open, and trade partners investing in each other, but what good is attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) if it doesnt create local jobs and boost local economy? I suspect the procedure of contracting out work projects can open possible loopholes, as companies‘play favors’and manage to go around trade and employment rules in place.

I do hope Newsnight will follow up on the story. Love to see how our ingenious Brown government would do. I am sure if they try hard enough, they will think of something (Remember how they froze Icelandic assets in the UK on the grounds of Anti-terror laws? Oops… ;)

P.S. could somebody please teach me how to add hyperlinks and make the fonts bold?

Peers guilty of a criminal offence or rule breach could be kicked out of the Lords, under plans being considered by Justice Secretary Jack Straw.


Isn't this just another instance of the general political fudge that we have constitutionally. C19 Men in Tights preserving faked traditions etc.

We should bit the bullet and start looking at copying the US system with the exception that I would have a constitutional President and an executive PM (the former checking the latter so that they didn't drum up dubious evidence for wars etc).

Come now bloggers of different persuasion, let us all celebrate Candlemas Day (2nd Feb) in a civilised manner; according to the ancients:-

If Candlemas Day be fair and bright
Winter will have another fight
If Candlemas Day be dry and fair
The half o winter's to come and mair
If Candlemas Day be wet and foul
The half o winter's gane at Yule

Doesn't say what to expect if we're under 2 bl..dy foot of snow!

Also, I'm told by my religious friends that it's the day we should celebrate the cleansing of the virgin!! Clause 21 wouldn't approve.

#61 rinpoche1

I agree UTTERLY.

The hostility is a weapon to discourage the non race "realists" so they can can presumably claim they are the norm and promote their propaganda.

Bear in mind JJ is somebody who thinks that people like me are "anarchists and Trotskyites" because I "paint Hitler as darkly as possible for party political reasons". Democracy should give way to "big government", JJ is not sure the Holocaust happened but does like to quote statistics about Jewish survival rates from the 1930's etc.

In other words these are fanatics.

Everybody knows genetic variation within a race is greater than the variation between races and the ridiculous statistics that they quote about IQ and race are meaningless. Mainstream scientists are "all Jews".

Try writing to your MP and suggest Holocaust Denial should be a crime as in Germany and Austria. Personally I have decided the encroachment on free speech is justified as they don't really believe the Holocaust did not happen.

You could encourage them to get in their two or three cars and invade Poland (the Poles would, I know, give them a very "warm reception").

But any pressure on the Beeb to ban these racist head bangers gets my vote of appreciation.

HYPOCRISY

doctormisswest (#60) "but, hey, it's still one of the few countries in the world where you can laugh at pretentiousness!"

Glibness.

a) Practice what you preach and b) refrain from reinforcing such behaviour in others.

This is a great way to spend the day when I can't go to work and I don't like snowballing!

rinpoche, the way I see it, quite apart from the liberal use of 'shoulds' and personal slurs, which I believe render these posts moderatable, and even though I'm not familiar with every reference and theory, the use of theories is very limited, limited to the point of dogma.

Plus, it seems to be impossible for this person to understand that it doesn't matter how many natural laws there are, human society is political. And politics, whilst working with, and affected by, natural elements such as time, is ultimately controlled by the use of interpretation, ideology and language. And, as a result eludes predicatability. (other to conclude that we are on a journey to some sort of freedom and equality simply because ultimately it will be selected for naturally - but not for a long, long time to come and that is purely speculative).

I expect that in several millenia, Darwin, Einstein and Newton will be remembered as I remember the Greek Greats; separated by hundreds of years but thought of as one big glob called 'Greek civilisation'.

NARCISSISM/DYSGENESIS

The trouble is, it's probably largely genetic. Incorrigible. See examples.

# 65

Hi mademoiselle_h

I found this page sometime ago, hope it's what you requested.

Hyperlink cmds



You raise a good question -

"If its cheaper to employ British workers to construct an extra unit at the oil refinery (which doesnt sound to me like a highly technical job) in the U.K., whats the companys incentive of flying foreign workers all the way from Italy and Portugal (and paying for their accommodation and expenses while they are here) to do the job?"

HOW DO YOU STITCH UP A KIPPER?

mademoiselle_h (#65) It would be good if Newsnight looked into terms other than just pay. What else do the employers have to comply with? It all looks like a lost cause though.

"P.S. could somebody please teach me how to add hyperlinks and make the fonts bold?"

c/o Chloe_F

For bold see here.

EMPIRICISM

doctormisswest (#70) "the use of theories is very limited, limited to the point of dogma."

You are in desperate need of an education in science. What matters is evidence. Theories are just summaries of known evidence. Go and have a look at the evidence whiuch has been presented through links and forget about your pet 'theories', as you clearly aren't familiar with the empirical evidence, any more than rinpoche1, thegangofone, 13thMan, etc is Here's a good place to start.

My personal views -

#37

Hi Jean

I like that independent news paper link "Who are you calling an old Trot?", that explains a lot to me what these peoples mentality is.

Quoting Wolfie Smith

Come the glorious day brother.

FOR THE UNPREJUDICED

Warning, the content of this 2008 scientific article may upset bigots and others prone to ignore empirical evidence in favour of their deeply entrenched ideological preconceptions/prejudices.

UNPRECEDENTEDLY WRONG?

#76 Here's the missing link It's the 5th paper down here (see also foot of #74).

What's happening today is indeed unprecedented, except for perhaps back in the days of Galileo, as we are today swamped with data from all of the world's educational testing bodies (e.g. ETS in the USA ), and that run every three years by the OECD PISA in Europe (although this now covers much of the world).

To see people here boldly repeatedly dismiss all this as not mainstream is more than a little odd to say the least - but this is the peculiar 'Liberal-Democratic' world which we now live in. Sadly, it will destroy us, sadly it already is.

#72

Thanks Steve!

The link you gave me was very helpful! Guess I should have known that BBC news blog uses standard HTML codes. Anyway, let me check if I have learned it correctly:

I've been told that last month Britain blocked the inclusion of this specific social claws into the new version of the Lisbon Treaty.

JJ @ [19]

My response at [20] was removed by the moderators and is copied to my personal website linked by you at [34] 7 January 2009.

I have the option of rewriting my response and I take the opportunity now.

Your [19] is quite misconceived because I do not seek, as I have made it abundantly clear, to control or police any poster's thought.

Rather I seek to stop their obsessively spamming their thought. It does not matter whether they are posting on eugenics, cosmology or Madonna, if they post multiple times every day then that's spamming and it's not acceptable and it's against House Rules.

My original response to your [19] was merely to reiterate that I liked Barrie's on-topic post today but that I had resolved not to tolerate his off-topic spamming and that I enjoy his verse I had noticed he writes from time.

In addition I remarked ironically that surely this was not a 'purging' offence, referring of course to your strange and vaguely threatening [34] 7 January 2009 where you use this word.

I suggest that the reason the post was complained of was because of the emabarrassment felt by you or on your behalf over the use of this word so ineluctably associated with Stalinism on which subject you so frequently post.

I can take the opportunity as well I think to remark that you have now advanced two different hypotheses as to how it came about that someone was able to track down my personal website containing my private address and to link it into a post.

However that someone was you and you should know how you tracked down my site.

I suggest it is exactly what I have surmised in another post I again had to resubmit after it was initially removed by the moderators on objection: that on May 20th last year I submitted a light-hearted post on the subject of celebrity-chef cloning and at the finish made an ironical reference to my website.

The post was removed, I suggest by you, and that you noted my website as future ammunition perhaps, whatever, (but at that time I had yet to notice you) and I invite the reader to form their conclusions.

I repeat that I do not seek to police your thought. I trust you agree I am not obliged to engage it.

JJ @ [74]

Another very aggressive post from you and that if you please to a poster who remarks that she (so I assume) is venturing back into the forum after a period away because she felt bullied.

What can you be thinking of?

You label your post 'Empiricism' and thus what we are talking here is not science but the philosphy of science and judging from your [68] 29 January 2009 your thoughts on the subject matter are not likely to be edifying as noted by me at [70] ibid.

Indeed not. To characterise theory as 'summaries of known evidences' is absurdly simplistic - Aristotlean in its metaphysics and yet your apology [72] ibid is Platonic in spirit, although I think it quite likely you don't recognise the dissonance.

Of literally dozens of counter-examples from the physical sciences that readily come to mind one can cite Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, modern string theory and, citing something that many readers will recognise from their own reading of the popular press, the Higgs Boson which awaits experimental confirmation.

The text-book example incidentally is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

The 'good place' you suggest we commence our study of empiricism turns out be faculty profile of Dr. J. Philippe Rushton of Ontario university, a noted and distinguished geneticist but not I fancy published in the philosophy of science.

I repeat wearily it is pointless to cock a snook at me as I don't attack your thought nor wish to comment on the nature-nurture debate and various other components I discern in your thought. I merely wish to attack your relentless obsessive off-topic spamming of it and I give you notice now that if you continue in this very ungracious, aggressive and in the case of your [34] 7 January 2009 actually threatening manner I will move to have your account closed.

Regarding the Dr. Rushton you cite I am amused to discover he is not without his own personal controversies detailed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton.

However I do, speaking strictly for myself, share his fascination with male organ sizes. I am on record in many places on the internet as lamenting my infeasibly large IQ (180 something last time I checked about 30 years ago) at the expense of my lamentably insignificant organ (5 inches at most as I write and that's pressing in really hard with the ruler {*ouch ... nasty*}) and given my evolutionary chances all over again would have much preferred it if God had lobbed a couple of standard deviations off my IQ and stuck it on the end of my organ.

So on this occasion I do at least have to thank you for a small (sic) service and I am emailing Dr. Rushton directly .

Frankly off-topic but I would just like to note that I concluded my post [80] with a crude little drawing in smiley fashion of my own extempore invention depicting the general state of tumescence (soon to be rectified time permitting if I can keep going) that I found myself in at the end of my holding forth and was astonished to discover it was disallowed by the computerised vetting used by the blog (ok it was a colon followed by a hyphen followed by a right bracket followed by a less than followed by a hyphen followed by a back slash followed by an 8 followed finally by another less than).

A case of greatly dirty minds thinking alike I expect.