SEND reforms | A Woman's Hour & SEND in the Spotlight special

Nuala McGovern: [00:00:00] The Schools white paper and government reforms to the SEND system in England are out. So we've joined forces with Woman’s Hour for a bumper reaction episode, which was broadcast on BBC Radio Four on Tuesday the 24th of February. So do dive in.

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Hello and welcome this morning. Woman’s Hour is live in collaboration with SEND In the Spotlight, our podcast to bring you a special programme on the impact of the government's SEND reforms, the biggest shakeup in a generation, so this is a very important moment. It comes after years of discussions on what is needed for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities.

We have a lot to discuss about the detail that has been released in the government’s white paper. The School Standards Minister Georgia [00:01:00] Gould will be with me in just a moment to answer some of the questions that have been raised by you on the proposed changes. We also have Dame Rachel De Souza, the Children's Commissioner, who will have official oversight of these reforms.

How will she hold the government to account? Carrie Grant, SEND parent and campaigner will be with us, as will 18-year-old Katie Nellist, who is autistic and wanted radical change. They'll join our many other guests. You have continually told us that the system is broken - the actor and SEND parent Anna Maxwell Martin agreed. I asked her if this is the fix she was hoping for.

Anna Maxwell Martin: I feel really positive that we're going in the right direction and after sort of four years of campaigning and lobbying, uh, myself and with different organizations that I work with, I really feel that Bridget Phillipson and her team have definitely listened in terms of inclusion, [00:02:00] meeting children's needs at the point of need in the early stages rather than, um, at the sort of firefighting stage, trying to make these processes easier, trying to support teachers.

Nuala McGovern: Anna Maxwell Martin there, if you'd like to get involved in the conversation, many of you have already this morning, the number is to text is 8 4 8 4 4 on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice. Note that number 03700 10444. But let me turn to the woman in front of me, Georgia Gould School Standards Minister responsible for implementing these huge changes to the SEND system. Good morning.

Georgia Gould: Good morning.

Nuala McGovern: Now, of all the changes coming down the track, what is going to be the trickiest to pull off?

Georgia Gould: Look, I think the, the, the, the trickiest thing for me is, is ensuring that that parents really have confidence [00:03:00] in what we're trying to do, because I have spent, you know, months, uh, talking to families and they have been so badly let down.

You know, parents who have had to fight for years and often experience kind of real failure in, in relation to their children's lives when you know that everything they've said hasn't been heard. And you know, it's a massive shift to turn that around for families and they need to really, you know, be part of the change and be confident in what we're trying to, to achieve.

So I think working with them and ensuring that they're staying part of this conversation is the most important thing for me.

Nuala McGovern: So confidence. Yeah. I suppose we could also add trust to that one as well.

Georgia Gould: Trust. Yeah.

Nuala McGovern: Um, I wanna get into some of the specifics

Georgia Gould: and some of their trust has been broken and I really understand why. So I think that is a really important point.

Nuala McGovern: So let's get into some of the specifics.

Georgia Gould: Of course. Yeah.

Nuala McGovern: Lots of new information in the reforms. Some confusion. I want to bring actor, uh, SEND parent and SEND in the Spotlight Podcast regular Kellie Bright.

Kellie Bright: There's so much to talk about, [00:04:00] but I'm going to talk about the ISP because we are one of those families that would almost definitely not qualify for an EHCP under these new changes. Um, and to be quite honest, I don't understand what an ISP is. I have so many questions. An Individual Support Plan that is, um delivered by schools, chosen by schools, delivered by schools. It has tiered levels. Targeted. Targeted Plus. What does that actually translate to? What is the legal basis for this piece of paper and what happens if my son's ISP isn't being delivered the way I think it should be? So many questions.

Nuala McGovern: Let's tackle one of them. Um, Individual Support Plan, I-S-P. E-H-C-P, which Kelly mentions there is an education, health, and care plan, which is a document that legally entitles you to support. What about the legal basis if somebody has an ISP, do they actually have a [00:05:00] legal entitlement to everything that is documented in that plan?

Georgia Gould: So the Individual Support Plan will be on a legal footing. Schools are gonna have a legal duty to develop inclusion plans and to develop Individual Support Plans, and those will be overseen by Osted. And if a parent is unhappy with what is in their Individual Support Plan, they will be able to go to the school complaint system and we are introducing a new role, an independent SEND role that will be looking at what's in that provision.

But I think just taking a step back, why we've developed the Individual Support Plan is because so many families have told me that at the moment, getting an EHCP is the only route to support. And often that takes years. Parents have said, you know, they've spent, you know, tens of thousands of pounds and there's nothing underneath that.

And so we are creating new layers of support that are funded underneath the EHCP. So the EHCP is still there, but, you know, there are 1.2 million children who don't have, eh, EHCPs [00:06:00] who have SEND, and this is a new, um, entitlement for those children.

Nuala McGovern: Layers is one word that might strike fear into the hearts of parents that have gone through so many layers of bureaucracy before. But, I do want to get to that point

Georgia Gould: Can I just say, can I just address that point of layers? Because I think there's been a real confusion. Let me, I'd like to just, just keep,

Nuala McGovern: Let, let us come back to layers in just one moment. Okay. I just wanna go to the legal footing, that particular term, because you say schools, for example, they're on a legal footing to create these plans. But I'm still not clear on whether what is written in the ISP is a statutory, uh, entitlement for those parents? Um, I mean, is that a legal document that they are entitled to everything that is said in that document?

Georgia Gould: Yeah. So the, the, there will be a legal basis to develop these documents. They'll have to have regard to the national inclusion standards that we're setting out. So what that actually looks like in practice, a targeted, uh, child who is receiving targeted [00:07:00] support. It might be that their Individual Support Plan sets out their reasonable adjustments, so you know that they need a movement break, uh, every hour, because otherwise they, they struggle to concentrate in, in a lesson.

That of course, you know, is a, a reasonable adjustment is, is, is is something that they're legally entitled to or that they need to go to lunch 10 minutes early or that they, they, they, they have a kind of a small group session, uh, around reading, but then at that Targeted Plus level, it might set out that they, um, they have access to speech and language therapy or to, uh, an inclusion base.

But I think the real difference, is that we are actually funding this. So we are putting ring fenced funding in place for schools, uh, to be able to deliver this. And 1.8 billion to deliver those experts at hand, the specialists that sit around, uh, um, schools to, to, to mean that, that that schools can deliver what's in them.

But the thing I wanted to say about layers, 'cause I think it's important, is you don't need to move through every layer. To get support, you can go [00:08:00] straight into an assessment for a specialist place. You can go straight into Targeted Plus. These are not hoops you need to to to jump into, but these are layers of support that are available to schools as part of a mainstream system to support your child.

Nuala McGovern: I think the hoop that people might be concerned about, because at the moment with an EHCP, for example, you go to tribunal, it's over 90% where the parents are successful in getting what they're legally entitled to. Uh, it's an adversarial process. Everybody agrees on that. However, with this, the only recourse they will have is to go to the school and start a complaint system again.

Georgia Gould: So every parent will still have access to, to an assessment for a Specialist Provision Package. So if a parent feels that their support is not being met by the Individual Support Plan, by the Targeted Plus layer, they could ask for an assessment as they do now, uh, for, uh, an EHCP. And if they were unhappy with the outcome of that assessment, they could still go to the tribunal.

So you know that [00:09:00] that access point is still there. This is, this is about putting layers of support below that, that are properly funded because many families have told me, even when they have an EHCP, that actually the support isn't there to, to back it up, but we are backing this up by 4 billion pounds of investment.

So, so that when something, you know, is set out in the Individual Support Plan, uh, children are able to access it. And, and I wouldn't underestimate the power of Ofsted looking at this because this is what, you know, this is really important to schools, what Ofsted say, and that accountability will be powerful in the system.

Nuala McGovern: You talk about 4 billion there is and projected shortfall, uh, by the OBR of six, uh, in the coming years. So some people saying that that is not enough money, but I do want to turn to EHCPs. Because it's a major concern, uh, for parents with children that have them, the education, health and care plans in the future.

They will be reassessed at the end of primary school and the question is, could they lose those legal entitlements [00:10:00] to support at that point? It appears that they could. Why that timing? So many parents have told me that it's precisely the worst time to reassess children as they transition between schools.

Georgia Gould: So as, as you're aware that every year an EHCP is reviewed, uh, in any case, um, but we, we have a few,

Nuala McGovern: but, but there is a difference I feel between the word review, and reassessment. A review could be looking at how well the child is doing or what might be added. A reassessment, that word, and it has, um, frightened some parents, it makes them feel that it's trying to figure out is this child still eligible?

Georgia Gould: This, this is what we're talking about is the transition point to the new system. So there are three really important things that I would like to say to parents, uh, about this, and three really important points of reassurance.

The first is if their child is in a special school they will remain in a special school. If they're in a special primary, they can go to a special secondary. If they want to come into the mainstream [00:11:00] system - some might - they can, but they will, they'll be able to remain in a specialist setting, as we go forward, regardless of that, that transition into the new system.

If they are, uh, the parent of a child with an EHCP in a mainstream setting, uh, we will, you know, we're really, really clear that we will not transition anyone into the new system until 2030, and in the meantime, we will build up that new system. All the investment I've talked about, all the, the national, uh, inclusion standards of Ofsted looking into schools, the teacher training, the development of 3.7 billion into new places.

All of that will be in place before we transition anyone. And, uh, but, and the third is nobody will transition from an EHCP until the Individual Support Plan is in place. But yeah, there will be some children.

Nuala McGovern: But what about, I'm talking about that particular age, you know? They're, whether it's, uh, into a much bigger school, whether it's children going, you know, about to go through puberty, they say it's just the [00:12:00] worst time, particularly for children with SEND, uh, it can be a crucial time. Why not earlier? Or later why that timing?

Georgia Gould: Because we felt it was a natural point to, uh, to transition, uh, when you are, you're moving through education stages, but, but if you, for, for there, we, we have expect that of children who have existing EHPs and we put this in the document, about one in eight will transition over to Individual Support Plans and for those children, uh, if they moved into secondary, every secondary school, were expecting to have an inclusion base.

Every secondary school will have access to 160 days of specialist support. Every secondary school teacher will have to be trained to support children with special educational needs and disabilities. So they'd be moving with an Individual Support Plan that's laid out all of their needs, their reasonable adjustments, the interventions they needed, if they needed access to an inclusion base, so they'd be moving with a whole host of support, whether they were moving with an EHCP or an Individual Support Plan.

This is not about taking [00:13:00] support away from families. We're investing heavily, not just the 4 billion I've talked about, but another 3.5 billion in 28/29 into making this work because it is failing too many families, and I'm sure that's what you have heard on this programme for years

Nuala McGovern: Many times. Many times. There are a couple of aspects I want to get into, uh, really on the points that you've brought up there, extra support at mainstream secondary level, uh, will come as you mentioned in the form of an inclusion base in every school. Can you clarify what you mean by that? Because you say it's based, there's two different models. A support base

Georgia Gould: Yeah.

Nuala McGovern: And a specialist base. But will both of those bases be in every secondary school?

Georgia Gould: Uh, so we're saying at least one of those bases will be in at least one, one of, in every secondary school. Um, so, you know, there is, there's, there's two models for people who, who don't know the, uh, the, the difference between the two. So, uh, uh, um, inclusion. A specialist base is commissioned by the local authority, and, um, it is for children often [00:14:00] with who need specialist provision. And a support base is developed by schools and, and invested in, um, within the, within the school budget. So they will have at least one, but we expect many schools will have both.

Nuala McGovern: But, but, you expect, but what if you need the other base?

Georgia Gould: So the,

Nuala McGovern: you know what I mean? If the base that you need is not provided in your local mainstream school.

Georgia Gould: So we're really clear at that transition point. The, the, the child will retain, uh, will have priority to choose their school. So they will be able to choose a school and have priority admissions, um, regardless of whether they have an Individual Support Plan and a or an EHCP, those children who are transitioning. So they will, you know, a parent will of course look at the school, do they have the right kind of base for my child within that school?

And they will, they will make that choice and they will have priority to get into that school.

Nuala McGovern: Staying with another aspect of the EHCP, um. Some that we're hearing [00:15:00] from feel that it's already been decided that children with autism and ADHD won't get an EHCP after the reassessment. Is that true?

Georgia Gould: No, that it, the, the Specialist Provision Packages are not set out on conditions, and I think it'll be really helpful for families worried about this to have a look at the draft Specialist Provision Packages we've set out.

So these have been developed by, um, experts. We've had an expert advisory group who've supported us, and they set out three categories of, um, uh, groups that we expect to need access to specialist support in the new system. So one are, uh, children who have physical disabilities, multisensory needs. Some of those children will really want to be at mainstream getting a mainstream curriculum.

Many of them will be, but you know, if you're a child who's visually impaired, you'll need access to assistive technology. Qualified teachers of the visually impaired, habilitation support, that wraparound package. The second, uh, group of children are children with [00:16:00] social and emotional, uh, learning needs, and that includes internalizing and externalizing.

And, um, you, you'll see within the description some the, the, the, that there are children with ADHD and autism who particularly can fit into to, to some of those categories in terms of their, their needs. And the third is children with learning difficulties, um, and, uh, uh, needs around executive function, communication needs.

So, you know, this is, this is not the final list, but we wanted to, to show parents the kind of needs we were thinking about. And there will be an independent panel of experts, educators, um, health experts who will work with parents, young people, disabled, children's organizations to set out which of the children we really think need that Specialist Provision Package.

Set that up very clearly. Um, uh, so, so to really give reassurance to families, this is not saying this condition gets this, this condition gets that. This is about the needs of your child. And some children with autism can thrive in a mainstream school with support and [00:17:00] some do need specialist support. Um, and we will have that distinction in the new system.

Nuala McGovern: Um. You mentioned visually impaired there, and it just reminds me of, of some questions other parents had. Will, a child whose special need or disability is never going to change, also have to be reassessed?

Georgia Gould: No. We're creating, um, we're creating a new, uh, system, uh, where it, and this is actually working with disabled children's organizations for the children who have the, you know, from birth, some of the, the, the most complex needs and, uh, who themselves, you know, I've talked to families who've had to battle for years when their child has extreme complex needs. We're creating effectively a fast track system.

We're gonna work with the NHS to be able to wrap support around those families faster and really improve the support they get through the system because, you know, these are children that will, will of course have an EHCP, but as many families will say, you know, that promise of education and health and local government really working together has not transpired for some of those families. So we are doing a lot of work to how [00:18:00] we bring that the system together to provide really holistic support for those children with the most complex needs.

Nuala McGovern: A lot of work being done. It is a consultation, which I want to,

Georgia Gould: so that's really important.

Nuala McGovern: And there is a,

Georgia Gould: we want to hear people's views on what we've set out.

Nuala McGovern: So load of questions, for example, at the end of the document. Um, how can people contribute to that consultation, and I suppose they'll want to know, will their answers make any difference or is it just tweaks to what we're seeing already?

Georgia Gould: Yeah, so we have for, you know, we have very deliberately taken a lot of time over this and had a, a big national conversation. And I want to, to really say to parents watching that, that, or listening, sorry, that the, um, their ideas have really shaped this, this document, and there are big changes that have been made as a result of our work with disabled children's organizations and parents already.

Uh, but we want to continue to listen. We've set out, you know, a set of proposals that we really think will make things better for children, but we want their views. And so hopefully you'll, you'll share the link, uh, of a [00:19:00] consultation document, uh, as part of this, this programme. But we'll also be organizing events around the country, continuing to do online events, working with, uh, disabled children's organizations, schools.

Colleges, early years settings to, to get people's views, uh, uh, around every part of, of England. And we really do want those views and we will very much kind of continue to work with people to get this right, because this is a generational opportunity to change things for, for children that have been failed for too long.

Nuala McGovern: The Schools Standards Minister Georgia Gould. Thanks very much for coming into us in the Woman’s Hour studio this morning. As we speak about, uh, the government's white paper, the reforms, uh, that are in it, talking about SEND, uh, our conversation continues. Let me introduce some of our guests that are with us this hour.

Marsha Martin, founder of Black SEN Mamas, Katie Ghose, CEO of the Kids Charity and Vice Chair of Disabled Children's Partnership. They represent, uh, more than a hundred charities. We have Margaret Mulholland SEND and inclusion specialist [00:20:00] at the Association of Schools and College Leaders and also back with us Katie Nellist, who is 18. She's actually been outta school since she was 13. Uh, she's spoken on Woman’s Hour before. You may already be familiar with Katie.

Um, but let me begin with you, Marsha and I will ask this question, uh, of my guests. Uh, what do you welcome in these reforms and in what the minister has just said? And also I'll find out what you're worried about.

Marsha Martin: Um, I think what I'm most welcome, and I think most SEND parents are welcoming of this, is just the general recognition that, you know, the current SEND system isn't working for families or schools, and reform is needed. There is positive intention around things like earlier support, um, improving inclusion in mainstream schools, investing in training as specialists, just so that children get help sooner rather than having to reach crisis point before, you know, support appears if done well.

[00:21:00] Strengthening mainstream provision could mean there are fewer families having to fight for support. It could mean, uh, children being helped in their local schools alongside their peers. Um, there is a focus on consistency and national standards. Those also could help, uh, reduce the postcode lottery that families currently experience. But everything kind of depends on entirely how those standards are delivered in practice. Um, I think that's the main thing that I'm concerned about,

Nuala McGovern: all about the implementation. I will be speaking today, to Rachel De Souza later in the program, the Children's Commissioner, who also has the remit of overseeing these reforms and holding the government to account. Uh, but let me jump to you, Katie Nellist. Back with us. How are you feeling this morning? What about what the minister said, what you're hearing?

Katie Nellist: Well, my initial reaction to reading the white paper was I was very angry and upset, and it slowly turned to sadness and worry because I don't know if I have the legal right to an education anymore, and [00:22:00] that's a very scary position to be in.

I'm currently on Education Other Than At School and that is something that's mentioned absolutely nowhere in the white paper and I feel very forgotten about. Most of the white paper is focusing on very academic attainment and assessments and attendance. But it feels like if you can't do any of those things, then you don't matter.

You're being forgotten about. And I'm just finding that very concerning. And I also feel like if I had to go through the system that's being proposed, I would end up with more trauma because lots of this stuff, it wouldn't help me. I'm very uniquely vulnerable and I just seem to fall through the cracks in every system.

Nuala McGovern: Thanks Katie for that. You weren't reassured I mean, 'cause she is trying to, they are trying to, should I say, rebuild trust? What would it take?

Katie Nellist: I mean, trust is so badly damaged and I don't see trust getting better with this. You know, we're so used to fighting the local authorities, and obviously that's a very broken relationship, but I think we're [00:23:00] just gonna change to having to fight our schools instead.

And that's gonna be even worse in a way, because with a local authority, once it's over, you can kind of ignore them again. But if you are being forced to go into school every day, you might end up seeing your teachers in your community as well. And that's such a broken relationship, and I think it's gonna do. Even more damage to trust.

Nuala McGovern: Let me turn to you, Margaret Mulholland, who's been listening to it all.

Margaret Mulholland: I think Katie's message there is really important. We really need to reassure, and I need to reassure in representing school leaders that they can really meet those personalized needs. And I think this is one of our anxieties.

We're really welcoming of the ambition of this paper. We're welcoming SEND at the centre, but we recognize inclusion takes a long time. It's a process and I think increased funding will help but actually will head teachers, teachers have the tools to really address the range of [00:24:00] needs in in school settings.

And there's in, there's complex needs that may not now be in a special school, but be in a mainstream, uh, context. And I think we are ambitious for this. We wanna work with the government. We're really welcoming of the consultation and the opportunity to shape what comes next. We're particularly pleased with the notion of the Experts at hand. We think that could be really valuable.

Nuala McGovern: So that will be educational psychologists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, uh, basically really bulking that up and, and making it more fit for purpose.

Margaret Mulholland: Absolutely. I was in a primary school, uh, last week where they have access to a speech and language therapist on a rare occasion, and when that's in place it's simply targeted at a year five student and not at the early years where there it's really needed. I think the bringing together of disadvantage and SEND and that [00:25:00] intersectional kind of lens on the white paper is really important. We're talking about children having the best start in life that's gonna make a significant difference.

Sure Start is really missed by schools in term, in terms of supporting families to engage, but you know, really what does this mean on the ground for schools? That's what we want to ask next.

Nuala McGovern: Katie Ghose?

Katie Ghose: I really welcome the fact that the minister has clearly heard about the fight and she wants to replace the fight with early support so kids can go to a school and have the chance to make friends and learn. The bit we are really worried about is the future of education, health, and care plans. I'm thinking about a young man

Nuala McGovern: Still EHCPs? After all she has said, what is it that struck you that you're like, I'm not sure of that

Katie Ghose: Yeah, I'm thinking about a young man who’s 12 autistic, um, ADHD, anxiety, academically able. If in a few years’ time the Individual Support Plan, all that support, good endeavours, hasn't worked for him.

We need to hear from the government that [00:26:00] an EHCP will remain open to someone like him if his needs haven't been met.

Nuala McGovern: Thanks all for that. We continue to talk. I do want to bring in, uh, the BBC education reporter Kate McGough, who joins us regularly on the SEND in the Spotlight podcast. Uh, I wonder what your reflections Kate are on how all of this is playing out, uh, having followed the developments and the delays, of course, for so long.

Kate McGough: Well, to me it does seem like these are radical reforms, but what really struck me is how they're planning to be introduced gradually. You know, we've had Bridget Phillipson talk about a decade long shift, um, and they're obviously being very careful about trying to put new support in place before they make changes to EHCPs.

But I think it will take a while to develop these new national standards that they're talking about for EHCPs. So in one respect, we will have uncertainty for a little bit longer, you know, maybe until 2028, about what these new national standards are, um, and whether your child will fit into this [00:27:00] specialist level of support.

But on the other hand, the government will say, in that time, before that, before that change, there should be more support in place quicker within mainstream schools. And I think what's, what struck me is the government's been so careful to emphasize the investment going into schools and the system now, and they really don't wanna talk about framing it as cutting costs in the future.

Obviously that might be politically tricky, um, but it does seem like, you know, what we, what we're seeing is, is the direction of travel of a sustained commitment to inclusion. But like you say, there are winners and losers from that.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah. And the funding is a very tricky issue. Definitely. Uh, projections are different depending on who you speak to. I think everyone can agree that the costs have gone, uh, prohibitive over the past years and particularly from 2015, uh, there has been a massive increase in, uh, the amount of people looking for provision. But EHCPs, they're on the tip of everybody's tongue this morning. Let us drill down even further into them.

Education, health, and care [00:28:00] plans. With me to discuss is Eleanor Wright, solicitor at the legal rights charity, SOS!SEN. Also on the line, Louise Gittins, Chair of the Local Government Association. We have the parent and broadcaster, Carrie Grant, who has children with SEND and Ramandeep, a mother off a young man with Down Syndrome.

Uh, welcome to all of you. Um. Eleanor, our legal voice here.

Eleanor: Hi.

Nuala McGovern: Good to have you with us. Will families' legal rights remain intact? I think that's a crucial question that people are asking.

Eleanor: Well, that's our real worry. Um, and if anything, they seem to be weakened. Um. People like me and my charity and others have been saying to successive governments that the problem with the current law is purely the lack of accountability.

That it's repeatedly broken or ignored, and it is difficult for parents to enforce it. And this doesn't make it any easier. Uh, you're taking a lot of children. Out of [00:29:00] EHC plans onto ISPs. And yes, schools will have, uh, a legal duty to provide them, but they currently have a legal duty to use their best endeavours.

So it's not very different. And the only enforcement for that is a complaint to the school. Uh, and we don't know what power the complaint panel has, how long that will take. It's, it's not going to be effective.

Nuala McGovern: That's, uh, what I was trying to get to, uh, with the Minister for School Standards, because going to tribunal was the way that people did it previously to fight for an EHC plan. Um, so do you think that's gone now?

Eleanor: Well, for ISPs and it's, it's is a worry because take the inclusion bases currently, if you feel your child needs to be in one, you will aim to get that provision written into an EHCP and it will become enforceable, [00:30:00] as I understand it, that that you might be in one through an EHCP, but otherwise it's a decision of the schools and what happens if you disagree with the school’s decision, uh, you know, you are trotting off to this complaints panel, um, which is all, you know, very nebulous.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah, which, also the issue of time, which I want to underline again because we might talk about two or three years, for example. Of

course, for a child in education, that is a significant part of their educational years that could be in limbo. Uh, when it comes to asking for an assessment for an EHCP, parents are worried, that they will lose the right to even go to tribunal if a school refuses to do that.

Eleanor: Well, as I read the white paper and it's all very new to us, um, I believe the idea is that you can go to the tribunal, uh, if you are refused an assessment. I was slightly surprised the minister was suggesting you could get an assessment as of right, because

Nuala McGovern: [00:31:00] that's what I,

Eleanor: that doesn't seem to be what it's saying.

Nuala McGovern: Okay, we should look into that a little bit further. We do have SEND in the spotlight as well that we will continue these conversations today.

If you wanna get in touch, it's 8 4 8 4 4 on the text, and I wanted to come to these categories, shortened T and TP at the moment, it's Targeted and Targeted Plus, so we've individual, uh, support plans, we've Targeted, we've Targeted Plus. And then, uh, specialist support, uh, packages. Targeted and Targeted Plus. Good idea?

Eleanor: Well, it's um, it's sort of a revival of what we had under the old system of action, school action and action plus. Um, and yes, it gives some sort of structure. I was glad to hear the minister say that, you know, you didn't have to go through those before you can access an assessment. Um, so, um, in principle it seems fine. It will depend on funding like everything else. Um.

Nuala McGovern: Let me turn to Kate for just a moment. [00:32:00] Uh, how would the government, uh, make the distinction between. Uh, excuse me, Kate, uh, let me turn to you. Kate McGough our, uh, education reporter. What is the distinction that the government are making between Targeted and Targeted Plus?

Kate McGough: Um, so the way they've laid out in the consultation is that, um, targeted needs will be children with, um, commonly occurring needs, and they'll get things like small group interventions. It'll be kind of reasonable adjustments, like taking time out, things like that. Uh, going to lunch early, you know, um, maybe small group interventions, that type of thing can be in a Targeted plan.

Targeted Plus will be more about the input from those specialists. So the speech and language therapists, the, the, the Experts at hand that the money is the government is putting money into. Um, that, so the Targeted Plus will be kind of having more access to these inclusion bases and input from specialists essentially, and it was also mentioned that on the Targeted Plus plan, you could [00:33:00] have a short term placement at a special school temporarily if needed. That was one of the options. So, um, yeah, that seems to be the main difference.

Nuala McGovern: Okay. And I want to bring in Carrie Grant here, as I mentioned, a parent who has children with SEND? Uh, EHCPs. You were thinking about them I know in the run up to this, Carrie, good to have you back with us. They're not being scrapped. Are you feeling reassured?

Carrie Grant: No, I'm not feeling reassured. I think that the problem that we have at the moment is that, let's just say 40% of people that have EHCPs are autistic.

So we've got to look at children with fluctuating capacity. So fluctuating capacity means one, they can be good, another day might not be good. So we've got to wait for that child to become a complex needs child, and the way that they become a complex need child is by not having their needs met. So by the time they get the EHCP, they will probably be self-harming, suicidal ideation, disordered eating, psychosis, all of those things that we see so commonly among the [00:34:00] 300 families that I work with, they get that help.

Eventually they get the EHCP, but our children are literally dying in the waiting. That could be years before you work your way through Targeted, Targeted Plus, especially, I'm not saying they work in that kind of staircase way, but by the time you become complex, and also we are asking for our parents to work with schools, and we know that schools sometimes are absolutely brilliant, but we also know that they can be really dreadful.

I'm going to read you a little bit of an email. I won't say who it was from. It was from the head teacher to the Senco. I won't say what school or the name, but it says, it says to the Senco from the head teacher, “Now stand well back and watch the fireworks. You do not have to reply to all of her emails.”

And this was written about me. And to be honest, I was really pleased to get this email mistakenly because it actually showed me the disdain with which I was treated and so many parents experienced this. So you are asking us to navigate the school system, go negotiate with the schools even more, as Katie said earlier.

Now, when we're really on the frontline with [00:35:00] the school, if they're not gonna get it, how are we going to have our children's voices heard? They'll end up out of school.

Nuala McGovern: Couple of things there at the Senco, that's the SEND coordinator, uh, that's a crucial person within the system. Uh, you talk there about not trusting the schools.

I know there was also, um, many parents had issues with the local authorities for example, some might have thought, uh, it's a more straightforward way and you do not have to, uh, go through every layer as the School Standards Minister Georgia Gold was saying you might, uh. Fast track was for another aspect she was talking about, but that you may be able to go straight to an assessment for an EHCP.

Um, interesting. Let me keep speaking, with some more of our members that are here, uh, we have Louise Gittins, chair of the local Government Association. Uh, so this is interesting Louise. Schools, as Carrie has mentioned, there will be taking more of, uh, the responsibility when it comes to implementing some of these [00:36:00] issues.

Uh, the white paper is calling time on local authorities in many ways, um, and backing many of the parents who say local authorities fail their children. Uh, is there something in this document that will help local authorities do what they're supposed to do better?

Louise Gittins: Yeah. Thank you very much. It's been a really interesting conversation so far and, and I think what we've heard is that we're, there is a system that's broken.

It's an adversarial system where everybody is sort of, um, fighting, um, with each other. And I think what we need to ensure is that this new inclusive way of working is making sure that children, young people and their families needs are actually. Being met and it, it's going to mean that the, um, schools, um, the NHS local authorities are going to have to start working together in the interests of parents and [00:37:00] the children and their families.

And so far this hasn't been happening. I have a caveat on that. There are some really good examples in the consultation document of where systems have been able to come together. But what I've seen from the white paper so far is that we are going to have to work together. Um, we will, um, have that convening power to work with our partners, to ensure that our local systems are meeting the needs of our families and young people. Um, and you know, hearing that example from Carrie is, is heartbreaking. Um, and we need to sort of move forward from that and put that past behind us.

Nuala McGovern: Well, if, if people can, I suppose would be my question there and not one that you can answer, but I want to go to some of the specifics within the document.

Experts at hand is another phrase that we are learning. Uh, these are specialist professionals. Uh, it could be occupational therapy, it could be speech and language. Um, it could be an educational [00:38:00] psychologist. How will those pools of specialists actually work?

Louise Gittens: So we need to work with government to understand the detail, before that. But one of the things, um, we have called for, uh, as part of the reforms to the system is that early intervention and prevention, we know from work in other areas that we do in local government, around children and care, um, that early intervention and prevention really does make a difference.

So having those experts at hand, which are the, as you rightly described, specialist group of people that can work from a very early stage. I mean, we have, I think one of your contributors mentioned about Best Start in Life family centres. Um, they're rolling out around the country and Sure Start actually worked with, um, children and their families at very early age in the past. And because Sure Starts have been closed across the country, that support hasn't been there. But so we welcome that investment into early intervention and prevention.

Nuala McGovern: [00:39:00] Are there enough trained experts?

Louise Gittens: I, I, I dunno the answer to that. Government do. Um, but you know, I, I think so a few years ago we did have a, an issue with the amount of educational psychologists in the system and there was fast track training so that people could be trained. So, um, if there isn't now I think we need to work together by, so that by 2029 we've got a system that can, uh, work for everybody.

Nuala McGovern: I see some heads nodding ‘no’ around this table. I have a number of guests that are within the SEND system saying that they are not. Uh, we will continue to follow that track of conversation as well.

I wanna bring in Ramandeep, uh, to us here. A parent, uh, who has a son with complex needs, who has an EHCP, um. How are you feeling a, a about the conversations around that EHCPs will be limited to children and young people with complex needs, and I use that term as is being used in the document. Uh, hard to know exactly what that might mean.[00:40:00]

Ramandeep: Um, yeah, I think that's my biggest concern. Um, we are looking at putting children into boxes yet again and categorizing them. And if you are parent of a child with any kind of, um, complex needs, we know that those needs are very much individual. And I spent a lot of time yesterday looking through those, I think there are seven categories and actually my son could fit pretty much into all of them.

There's something in all of them. So, uh, for me, I would then need to understand, well, what exactly will his EHCP look like? Based on that, um, because I think that's, that's a huge concern. We have these ISPs and SPPs, but how much of that is going to feed into that actual legal document? Um, that's my biggest concern, I think.

Um. I also have concerns about the [00:41:00] tribunal process, uh, where there's going to be a greater shift towards local authorities being able to name a school. And if you were to go to tribunal, um, they then actually can't name an alternative provision. They will send it back to the local authority and say, well, you have to rename a different school. So I think that's taking away some of the legal provisions that are in place for parents.

Nuala McGovern: Right. And, um. As we were hearing there, it's back to the schools and that could be, uh, problematic. I suppose you're thinking of a time, you've got a little guy, right? He's only, what age is he? Six.

Ramandeep: Oh, my son's actually 18 now.

Nuala McGovern: Your son.

Ramandeep: He's had his EHCP since he was four years old,

Nuala McGovern: since he was four years old. And so, yeah. But, but it can go then, of course, up to 25. Yes. Excuse me. I was thinking, I was thinking about him when he was little. I remember you telling me a story about him, uh, on the bus one time, but indeed, uh, so this SEND system continues until the age of 25.

So it is children and [00:42:00] young people that we are talking about. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. Uh, here's one. Donna, she says “The big question here is what makes everyone think that local authorities will follow the new rules of the white paper? They don't follow the current ones.” Um, another one here, uh, “What does it all mean for a child currently in year six who has an EHCP who's waiting for a placement for secondary in a specialist setting, but no choice has been made? I'm concerned that this will increase local authority, delay tactics even more. Also, in this context, what does complex mean?” That's Cat, a mum to a son with ASD with a PDA profile, who is not able to access mainstream education? Um, I want to move on as well. Thanks for all your messages coming in. 8 4 8 4 4.

If you'd like to get in touch, you're listening to Woman’s Hour live in collaboration with SEND In the Spotlight podcast as we explore the impact of the government's new SEND reforms in England. Right, mainstream inclusion, IB, inclusion bases. We are hearing some of these [00:43:00] terms. I want to bring back in Kate McGough, our education, uh, reporter in just a moment, but I'm gonna begin with Margaret.

Um, you've mentioned your concerns about whether there will be the support available to try and implement in the timescale that has been proposed.

Margaret Mulholland: Yeah. Um, I think there's an enormous ask of schools here and we want to be able to rise to that challenge, but my concern is that the anxiety schools have a lot of the time is the guilt in not being able to meet need.

That's what we're seeing in recent research on retention of teachers, that they're actually, you know, that they're not, they're not worried about the complexity of need in front of them. They're worried about, am I doing the best by this child and can we personalize that? Process of support. So will these inclusion bases that Kate's gonna talk about now, will they be sufficiently staffed?

That will be our question. We welcome these [00:44:00] flexibilities. We really, you know, applaud the government for looking at the flex in the system and setting us up to offer local provision for local children. I think that's really, really important. But will we be able to have the, you know, the capital building and the staffing particularly to really, um, resource these provisions effectively so that the children can come in and out and will have TA support staff to move with them from the base and into the classroom.

These are questions that school leaders are gonna be asking this week

Nuala McGovern: And that's what good looks like to you, that kind of flexibility in children being able to move and having the people around them, the adults around them to enable them?

Margaret Mulholland: Absolutely. And we've got some fantastic examples out there, and they're included in the paper, so we welcome that.

But it's gonna take a significant shift in the way in which schools are structured, and I think it's gonna take a significant shift in the way [00:45:00] education is structured. Some of your parents have mentioned attendance, behaviour. Assessment, you know, the exams that children can sit. All these things have to shift alongside the SEND agenda if children are really going to have their needs met in mainstream schools.

So we're really ambitious for that with this government to make that change.

Nuala McGovern: Yvonne was in touch, uh, just on inclusion. She says, “Sir Keir’s comment, you can't have high standards if you don't have inclusion is absolutely incorrect. I invite Sir Keir to spend a day in a mainstream year one classroom watching firsthand how teachers attempt to stretch bright children while at the same time dealing with children who have meltdowns and sensory needs. Does Sir Keir and his hapless education secretary have any idea of the truth of what goes on in our schools?”

And of course there can be many very bright children with SEND as well. But keep them coming. 8 4 8 4 4. If you'd like to get in touch. Kate McGough, let me turn to you, education reporter. Uh, can you briefly tell us, um, about how the [00:46:00] government's big idea will work in practice?

Kate McGough: For mainstream inclusion? Yes. So essentially they're gonna invest nearly 4 billion pounds over the next three years. Um, that's extra money and that is going to go into a couple of big pots in particular. One will be 1.6 billion pounds, where that will go for all making all mainstream schools, all early years settings and colleges more inclusive.

So that'll be, schools can access that money more quickly for things like funding, intervention, small group language support. The other big part of the pot is around building this, these expert panels. Um, and that money will go to councils and the NHS to create those banks of SEND specialists that schools can draw on.

But interestingly, it kind of sits alongside other things that have been announced around mainstream inclusion, we've already heard about, you know, 3.7 billion pounds of capital funding to create the, all of these inclusion hubs and 60,000 specialist places. Um, and there will, there will be a new duty on schools to produce an inclusion strategy where they have to set out [00:47:00] what they'll provide across the different levels of support and schools will be expected to form local groups and collaborate, you know, pull some funding and share resources. And obviously, of course, we've also got Ofsted judging schools and inclusion now, and since November.

Nuala McGovern: As one of the criteria, right? I can see that the time is ticking. We have so much to talk about. I wanna go quickly to some of my guests, uh, just for a, a reaction. Uh, Marsha, you have a child with special, with special needs in mainstream education. Can you see this new model working better than the current offer?

Marsha Martin: Um, no, I'll be very honest.

Nuala McGovern: That's a no with you?

Marsha Martin: It's a no. Yeah, I was quite concerned. My daughter currently, she's eight years old. She has ADHD, she has a SEN passport, which is, um, quite similar to um, the ISPs in that it states provision, states need, but it's not necessarily legally enforceable actually.

And what oftentimes happens is when the school is stretched and they're at capacity, the provision that she's given that she needs and [00:48:00] that she heavily relies on, is taken out from underneath her because they're unable to offer it to all the SEND children. Um, that's a problem for me because what's my legal recourse to support when I'm not okay with the provision that's being given or taken away to my child?

In terms of ISPs, I can't, I mean, she, she did mention that the tribunal, uh, is still there, but it's after, from what I understand, having to go through these layers of support. And that, to me, it just sounds a bit more like, again, similar to mediation, another process that is going to take time, potentially delay, um, the support that my child needs.

And then eventually, I don't know if that means she'll be given the support she needs. It just feels like time wasting and what SEND families and, and SEND children don't need right now is more time wasted.

Nuala McGovern: Marsha from Black SEN Mamas. I want to turn back to Katie Nellist, who is 18, uh, has spoken to us many times on this programme about these issues. It is a consultation. Katie, what are you gonna be writing in those boxes?

Katie Nellist: I probably won't be [00:49:00] writing the boxes they provide. 'cause I don't think they go far enough. They don't give me the depth I need to really expand and critique this white paper. I don't think this white paper is inclusive at all. It feels like it's doing the opposite.

To me, it feels like it's trying to shape young people to fit schools, not shaping schools to fit young people, which is such a big problem. And they talk about stretching young people a lot. And there's only so much stretch young people can take before we snap. I don't see this being truly inclusive.

There isn't the budget to be truly inclusive. Lots of this money, when it's split between all the settings, it's not even gonna hire one year’s Senco and Sencos currently are so stretched, and I'm just really scared for all the future young people who are coming through this system and they're not gonna have their meet needs met properly, 'cause their teachers won't be properly trained.

My teachers never spotted it and they wouldn't even with more training because CAMHS didn't spot it. Teachers aren't psychiatrists.

Nuala McGovern: And this is a question I think that Margaret is thinking about as well, and that the [00:50:00] teachers are concerned that they won't be able to serve other children, Katie, whether it's when you were in school or somebody like you is in school or indeed the children that are there now.

Um, as we've been speaking, we have another guest who has made her way into the studio, and it is the person who's going to be responsible for holding the government to account over this, who has oversight to the new reforms. Uh, they'll fall under the remit of the Children's Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel De Souza. Good morning.

Rachel de Souza: Morning.

Nuala McGovern: And do you need to correct me?

Rachel de Souza: Yeah, I was just gonna be really clear. I think there, I think what we were hearing this morning from the minister is that there's going to be a senior appointment who's going to have oversight for these reforms. I'll have, I am mentioned in, in the white paper.

Nuala McGovern: Yes, you are.

Rachel de Souza: I want to be there. And like I do for all children, you know, and all children of different backgrounds, I will be holding the government to account on them and I will be able to use my powers to do that. I won't be setting up the system and running the system. I will be doing what a children's commissioner [00:51:00] does, which is hearing from children, looking at data, providing challenge. Really tough challenge.

Nuala McGovern: No, and I understand that you're not implementing it in any way, but you are scrutinizing it.

Rachel de Souza: I will be, yeah.

Nuala McGovern: And holding to account in that regard. Um. What do you think about these reforms that you've seen so far?

Rachel de Souza: Okay, so look, we've heard really, you know, heard it beautifully from young people and from parents today about the current system failing children. Right? And I've heard that time and time again. One of the most powerful things I heard when I came into role first and did a survey of, um, you know, half a million children, over a hundred thousand children with, with special educational needs, additional needs, and they told me when their needs were met in school they were in fact, happier than the rest of the cohort.

But a huge amount of the children that stopped attending school after, during, and after lockdown were children with special educational needs who just gave up. And I think that tells you everything where, uh, so [00:52:00] there's the, there's how the children are feeling.

And how the adults were feeling, which was we are fighting, we're fighting a system. My research was showing, you know, I was, I was reading these EHCPs and looking at complete inconsistency across the country. You know, I was, I was looking at the system thinking it was adversarial. It wasn't great. So. Katie and I actually, she's one of my ambassadors, one of my young ambassadors, we've looked at, literally been to Canada, looked at systems all around the world to try to find what would a good system be.

So what do I think about these reforms? I think they're moving in the right direction. We need a system that asks children, um, and families, how can I help you rather than what's wrong with you? So the idea of early response. Um, health, education, social care, working together to work for children is the right thing. Not medicalizing children unnecessarily. Not saying you have to wait three years to get an EHCP to unlock support. You're getting that support in early, is [00:53:00] all good stuff.

Nuala McGovern: Let me ask you, because we have limited time, what power will you have if you aren't convinced that sufficient progress has been made in time?

Rachel de Souza: I will have the power of sunlight, which is, uh, the power to show exactly what's going on. So I have data powers. I can get any data held on children without having to use an FOI, I can enter anywhere and most powerfully I talk to children and to families.

We do that already. We've done it with the old SEND system. I will absolutely be looking at these changes and making sure there is nowhere to hide. It has to be better, but do not underestimate, do not underestimate how difficult and, and how long this change will take. This is not something where you can, you can just flip a switch.

I was a head teacher for 20 years. The idea of schools being totally inclusive and support, you know, doing all of this doesn't happen overnight. We've gotta build a system, which is why listening to children and families and protecting them and protecting their rights now is [00:54:00] so important.

Nuala McGovern: A couple more for you. Um, you're gonna shine a spotlight or bring sunlight to it, but calling people, places out that aren't, um, performing in the way that they should - do you intend to do that publicly, privately? Will you report to government or elsewhere?

Rachel de Souza: So all of my reports are always, um, put on my website. I report, I absolutely I report to government, prime ministers, deputy prime ministers, ministers to meet with me. Um, they, I have a right to reply from them. Um, so absolutely, I, I will be, and I've done it. You can see in our work on, for example, uh, children in prisons, for example, which is a completely different thing, our children in care with very, very, um, uh, what's the word?Um, you know, uh, we, we, we, we don't hide.

Nuala McGovern: So you're very much out there and you've often come on. Um, but you know, the fact that you mentioned some of those reports, for example, in your role [00:55:00] as children's commissioner, you have a statutory duty to protect children and the experiences of all children, whether they're facing poverty or abuse of ill health. Do you have the capacity to take on another huge job and do it effectively? Are you daunted?

Rachel de Souza: Yeah. Well, look, if we don't have the capacity, we'll be asking for extra. And certainly that we're, we've got conversations going on with the department now to say what we will need to do this well and do this properly, uh, because there is no way I would do it unless it was done properly.

Um, and you know, there is gonna be a huge amount of voice experience and data that's gonna need to be collected consistently to make sure that we can make change. But we do make change and we have, um, you know, we have both. And nothing is more important than this. This is a massively important.

Nuala McGovern: Do you think it will happen, do you think the proposals will go through?

Rachel de Souza: Um, I think there is an opportunity for modifications.

Nuala McGovern: I mean, do you think it will cost too much to deliver properly?

Rachel de Souza: Oh, cost too much to deliver properly? I think it's hugely ambitious. It's got to [00:56:00] work. So we've got to make sure that government backs it financially. And again, that's where I will be saying this needs funding and if it's not working, exposing it.

Nuala McGovern: You'll come back and tell us how it's going.

Rachel de Souza: I will do.

Nuala McGovern: Thank you very much. Dame Rachel De Souza, the Children's Commissioner. Uh, I wanna thank all my guests on today's programme and let you know that the conversation on SEND support and provision will continue here on Woman’s Hour in the coming weeks and months.

Also on our podcast SEND in the spotlight, you just have to search on BBC Sounds where you can catch up with all of our conversations from EHCPs to school transport, and everything in between. Uh, we also have a special, uh, episode coming up on specialist school provision, but that is all from us for today.

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