The 'not the welfare bill' episode

03rd July 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 166

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- There is a summer of sport ahead of us, Paul Carter. You love a bit of football, don’t you? That’s coming up in the summer at some point.

PAUL- I do. I love a bit of all sports to be honest. But Wimbledon is on at the minute. Are you excited about that?

EMMA- I have to say I’m more into the kind of pageantry than I am the actual sport. But what I do love is a bit of social media scrolling. And there was a clip this week that went absolutely viral of a cute disabled kid, and I did like the clip, it was a nice clip. Do you want to hear a bit of it?

PAUL- I do, yeah.

[Clip]

MALE- How are you?

RAVI- Yeah, I’m good, thanks.

MALE- Yeah, I should think you are. You had I hope it was a nice surprise. Who came down and surprised you this afternoon?

RAVI- Oh yeah, Phil Tufnell.

MALE- Oh no, did he? [Laughter] he’s so annoying, isn’t he?

RAVI- No, I like seeing him. This is a great surprise, yeah. I’m so excited.

MALE- [Laughs] I can see that you are.

[End of clip]

EMMA- So, let me put this in context for you. This is Ravi Chahal, he’s 12, he’s blind and he’s a massive, massive cricket fan.

PAUL- Love it.

EMMA- And this clip was from when he got to go into the test match special commentary box. He actually went on to show that he’s an incredibly knowledgeable cricket fan, and he also plays cricket with the Super 1s, which is like a disability project in Northumbria. So, all in all great guy, and it was a disabled kid viral clip that I didn’t hate.

PAUL- [Laughs]

EMMA- Now, Paul, I know you’re into sport now, but you actually were about to be in the Paralympics once. Is that the case? Because I’ve never seen you on that podium.

PAUL- [Laughs] well, I think that’s a slight bit of a reach. But yeah, I used to, way, way, way back in time, I used to swim competitively. You wouldn’t believe it to look at me now, trust me. But yeah, I used to swim competitively, and I was the national junior champion for two years, and I was the British record holder for a while for the juniors.

EMMA- In what category?

PAUL- I used to swim breast stroke. I was an SB1.

EMMA- What does that mean, SB1?

PAUL- So, it’s kind of like, I was the most disabled. I don’t know if I win a prize just for that [laughter].

EMMA- How disabled do you have to be to be an SB1?

PAUL- Well, not have arms or legs is a good start [laughs].

EMMA- So, what did you used to swim if you don’t have arms or legs?

PAUL- I’ve got bits of arms and legs.

EMMA- So, you were swimming to quite a high level. And what happened next?

PAUL- Yeah. And then my second year of competing in the nationals I was in my race and I got disqualified. It was the year before the Atlanta Paralympics and loads of people from that event got selected, so I will never know.

EMMA- What disqualified you?

PAUL- Nothing to do with, like, doping or anything.

EMMA- Really?

PAUL- [Laughs] when you finish with breast stroke part of the rule is you have to touch the board with both hands. And I was very tired, Emma, and I just touched with one, and that was it, DQ’d.

EMMA- That is an anticlimax [laughter].

PAUL- But what’s funny is I appealed.

EMMA- Did you?

PAUL- And said that my left arm is longer than my right, which it is, hoping that I’d found some kind of disability loophole. But my lane judge was the same lane judge who had seen me in my regional qualifiers a couple of months beforehand and had seen me touch with two arms.

EMMA- Darn it, small world this Paralympic swimming malarkey.

PAUL- It is indeed. So, I immediately retired after that.

EMMA- Did you?

PAUL- Yeah.

EMMA- And did you take up another sport?

PAUL- No.

EMMA- Okay.

PAUL- I took up drinking instead [laughs].

EMMA- Ah! You took up travelling the world doing technology journalism for the BBC instead.

PAUL- Yeah.

MUSIC- Theme music.

EMMA- Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the weekly podcast where you will find the best disability news, chat and interviews. Later I’ll be talking to Katie who works for a children’s hospice teaching kids who are too ill to go to school, and George, one of her very enthusiastic students. And we drop in on a unique hackathon where disabled people design apps and products to make those little life challenges that bit easier. So, have a little think about what you would like to hack, what you would like to design to make your life easier and we will come back to that in a bit.

Contact us. We’re on email [email protected], and you can find us on social media @BBCAccessAll on X and Instagram as well. And please, if you haven’t done so already, pop onto BBC Sounds and subscribe to us.

Now, he is back, he’s with me throughout, it is BBC tech journo, Paul Carter. Hello. Welcome back.

PAUL- Hello. Thank you for having me back.

EMMA- Thank you for being here. And we’re going to talk about some headlines now, aren’t we?

PAUL- We are indeed.

EMMA- Scope have just released their annual results of their disability price tag report, haven’t they?

PAUL- Yeah, that’s right. And they’re saying that the costs of being disabled are due to rise by almost 12% in the next five years. And that’s based on a survey and forecast from the Office for Budget Responsibility, saying that the extra cost is going to go up to almost £1,100 per month, up £90 from last year. And what I find really interesting about this number is that that’s really cut through with people, I think especially against the backdrop that we’re seeing against the welfare reforms and everything. It’s quite a stark reminder that things do cost us a little bit more money.

EMMA- They do cost a little bit more money. Do you have a lot of extra costs, do you think?

PAUL- Yeah, I was thinking about this this morning. It’s quite hard to quantify, isn’t it, when you sit down and actually think about it. But when you factor in all of the things that maybe you spend money on that perhaps your friends and peers don’t do you start to realise the little things. And it can be really small things, can’t it, like I have to buy food that comes pre-chopped or prepared, which perhaps other people don’t do. And I think it’s those little incremental costs rather than the really big things that kind of add up.

EMMA- And why do you have to do that?

PAUL- Because I don’t have hands, and using sharp knives is probably quite dangerous.

EMMA- Yeah, you’d just get it tied onto your hand or something, couldn’t you, or onto your arm?

PAUL- [Laughs] like Edward Scissorhands.

EMMA- Yeah, you could just have permanent blades at the end of your arms, no?

PAUL- [Laughs] fine yeah, let’s go with that. We’ve solved the PIP problem just there.

EMMA- I mean, I’ve been thinking about it too, and there are so, so many extra costs; a lot of them are around transport for me, but also delivery charges on things, that’s a big one, even extra laundry because I can’t see whether there are stains on clothes or not. It’s just little tiny things like that, isn’t it?

PAUL- Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s really interesting the extra costs that you have might be totally different to the ones that I have, and the same for the next person. It’s really variable by person, isn’t it?

EMMA- It is. And some of them are little and some of them are really big. I mean, when I hear about the price of disability equipment, and even there’s a piece of software that I need at home at the moment, but it’s like 700 and something quid, I can’t afford that. I have to save up for that with PIP to buy it. It’s my screen reader for the laptop at home where I do all the house admin and help the kids with stuff, so it’s actually quite an important thing. But anyway, enough about my extra costs.

I think a couple of things that popped out for me this week were around disabled people’s independence being swiped away in a second just by one change, one thing that’s happened. For example, there’s a guy in Glasgow, Lucas Honey, who hasn’t been able to leave his building for six months because they changed the locks and now the door is too heavy for him to push open.

PAUL- Yeah, it’s really interesting that these what other people might see as really small or insignificant things can have a really significant impact on disabled people’s lives and independence. You often see responses when organisations are challenged over stuff like this, and it’s like, oh yeah, yeah, we see this as an absolute priority. And it’s like, well you don’t really seem to be doing anything about it to fix it. But it was quick enough, like you say, to sort of swipe someone’s independence away. I think that’s a really interesting dynamic there.

EMMA- The police said that it was a good idea to put these locks in because it would help with security, and then the right of reply, when someone wrote the story, from the council said that is was a priority to fix it so that he could get in and out and to do an automatic door thing. It takes ages and they say it's really expensive and stuff like that. But when you think about someone not being able to leave without help for six months, and you don’t know what kind of support system that person has, you know. They have a carer for a couple of hours a week, and they’re saying that because they need to go out when their carer is there they can’t get anything done around the house. It’s like a vicious cycle, isn’t it?

PAUL- It is, yeah. And it comes back to that thing, I think it’s just a lack of wider awareness of how those small changes can have such a big impact on people’s lives.

EMMA- I mean, absolutely nothing near that, but when people turn the audio description off on my television I get the rage. But you know what, there was another story, I literally learnt something – I’ve been doing this for 20 years this disability focused journalism lark, I thought I’d heard a lot of things around wheelchairs – but some people use these powered attachments that kind of help tow you along. There was a guy, again with a brilliant name by the way, Israel Vidal, who has this wheel at the front of his wheelchair that’s powered and helps tow him along. But apparently he needs a licence and registration for it; it’s treated as a vehicle. And he was at a concert with his sister for his birthday and he fell out of his wheelchair and landed on his head and went unconscious and had to go to hospital, which is really terrible. But when he was in hospital the police, the Met Police, confiscated his wheelchair because of this electric powered attachment. And everybody told the police, like his sister, the OT, the hospital that the attachment could be detached, it’s an attachment, it could be detached, but they didn’t take that on board so they took his wheelchair and the attachment for 19 days. Amongst their different rights to reply was the hospital gave him a wheelchair. But Paul, you’ve had a powered wheelchair, right, you know that every wheelchair for every person is different.

PAUL- Totally, totally, and it almost certainly wouldn’t have been suitable. But I’m very similar to you, I had no idea that was a thing. I’ve always quite fancied the idea of having one of those attachments for a chair. I can’t push a manual wheelchair, not that I use a manual wheelchair to get around much, but there are times when it would be helpful walking long distances. And I’ve always thought the idea of clipping one of those on would be great. The only thing is, I have to say, the one in question in this did look quite big, so I don’t know if there are specific regulations around the sizes of them. But I had no idea that you needed a licence or anything for those.

EMMA- So, what did his look like? What did Israel’s – I just love his name, Israel Vidal.

PAUL- It’s quite chunky. It had, like, a big box on the front of it. I don’t know the specifics because I’ve only seen the pictures, but it looked quite chunky. But yeah, I had no idea that was a thing either. But again, what we were saying before, it comes back to that thing that I think there’s just a disconnect there between not really comprehending the ramifications of that decision that someone is making when it comes to disabled people’s independence.

EMMA- Well, you just kind of feel as well that when he was getting that attachment would someone not have popped up and said, you know this is treated as a vehicle and that it needs x documentation. Someone from the charity Wheels for Wellbeing said it’s an out of date law, she said, that’s her opinion, and that it needs more awareness around it so that people know if they have these electric attachments they need to be treated differently or that they can get the law changed around them. It’s just something I didn’t know.

PAUL- If you and me didn’t know it was a thing then chances are lots of other people didn’t know it was a thing either.

EMMA- Absolutely. Now, regular listeners, Paul, will remember Niamdh Braid from Fife in Scotland, which is where I come from. We chatted to her a months ago about her fight – which she won by the way – to get a BSL interpreter at school. She’s an absolute firecracker, into everything, trying to change all sorts of laws and decisions around rights for deaf people. And just this week a new education bill came out in Scotland which legally recognises teachers and students who use BSL. The BSL act came out in Scotland in 2016, so they’ve been waiting on this education bill for a long time, and they hope that it will make it easier for deaf teachers and students to get BSL support at school. And Niamdh, well done again for campaigning to change a law. What a woman. She’s only like 17 or something.

PAUL- That’s amazing. Well done, Niamdh. It’s good to hear a successful campaigning story, isn’t it?

EMMA- It is, and it’s lovely to see young vibrant disabled people pushing forward and campaigning. I just really, really love to see it. Paul, tell me, I’ve gotten this far in the podcast without asking about your work/holidays.

PAUL- [Laughs]

EMMA- You’ve just been to New York city, babe.

PAUL- I have. I’ve just had a week in the Big Apple.

EMMA- What did you notice? What happened? Anything disability related you can feed back to use on Access All?

PAUL- It’s a little bit strange. I mean, I’ve spent quite a lot of time in the US and New York in particular, and I absolutely love it. But it does always strike me that attitudes towards disability are very slightly different there, let’s put it that way. The number of times I get approached by people in the street wanting to ask me questions or tell me how inspirational I am – which we all know I am, but…

EMMA- Yeah, totally, an inspiration to us all, am I right, gallery?

PAUL- [Laughs] but sadly I don’t get it walking down the street in London every other day, whereas I do…

EMMA- That must do a lot for your ego? Your ego must be smashed.

PAUL- Yeah, but you know, sometimes you want to pull your hat down and walk along and mind your own business. The other day I was buying a pair of trousers in Macy’s and a man wanted to come over and ask me if I was a victim of toxic shock syndrome [laughs].

EMMA- Oh wow! Oh my goodness. So, because of how you look you get asked are you a victim of this, that or the other because of the length of your arms and your legs?

PAUL- Absolutely, yeah. which again, I’m not saying it never happens here, of course it does, but it’s something I feel a little bit more exposed to. I don’t know whether it’s just a cultural thing or what, but it’s always a bit of a shock to the system.

EMMA- What age are you now?

PAUL- God, do I have to say on air?

EMMA- Sort of ballpark.

PAUL- I am in my early to mid-40s, Emma.

EMMA- Same. But I suppose the reason I ask that is because I think my answers have differed over the years. What do you say to people now when they ask you have you been a victim of x, y, z, or did you get that because?

PAUL- I mean, I didn’t really engage with this guy because it kind of caught me a little bit by surprise, so I just said no and walked off.

EMMA- That’s a reasonable response.

PAUL- I think I’m like you, my responses have kind of changed over time. But they also change depending on the circumstance as well, do you know what I mean? If you’ve had a really good day and you’re feeling pretty good you might be a little bit more carefree about it, I don’t know. Whereas sometimes you just want to be left alone really, don’t you?

EMMA- Yeah, you do. And do you think people ask you those questions because you’re on the telly or because of how you look?

PAUL- Oh, I think it’s absolutely because of how I look. I don’t think it’s because I’m on the telly at all.

EMMA- Well, maybe you just look like someone who will answer. You look like a nice personable sort of fella.

PAUL- I’ve got a welcoming face maybe.

EMMA- Yeah. Have you got a welcoming face?

PAUL- [Laughs] I don’t know. I’ll have to ask around. Let’s do a survey at some point.

EMMA- Has Paul got a welcoming face? Do I have a welcoming face?

PAUL- You have a very welcoming face, yeah.

EMMA- Thank you. What constitutes a welcoming face? Because I can’t see. You’re going to educate me here.

PAUL- I don’t know. It’s like smiley, like wide eyes – wide eyes? Yeah, I guess so.

EMMA- I mean, my eyes move around, does that constitute a welcoming face or is that just a blind face?

PAUL- [Laughs] I’m not sure I want to be drawn on that.

EMMA- Why?

PAUL- You’ve got a very welcoming face, Emma. You’ve got a very welcoming face.

EMMA- Thank you. You’re welcome [laughter].

PAUL- See, it’s weird, isn’t it?

EMMA- I like weird. You are listening to Access All. Please do search for us on BBC Sounds and hit that big subscribe button.

MUSIC- We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the BBC News website.

EMMA- There are over 50 children’s hospices in the UK, but only one person doing Katie Simmon’s job. Katie is a children’s rights and education practitioner at Ty Hafan Hospice in Wales. She teaches children who aren’t well enough to go to school full time. Katie is here with me to tell me a bit more about her work. Hi Katie.

KATIE- Hi, Emma.

EMMA- Lovely, lovely to have you on Access All. We’ve also got George on the line. George is 17, he has spinal muscular atrophy and Katie goes and visits George at home. Hi George.

GEORGE- Hello.

EMMA- What are you up to today, George?

GEORGE- Not much. I’ve not got much on today except doing this podcast with you all, which I’m very excited for.

EMMA- And where are we talking to you from? Are you in your bedroom?

GEORGE- Yes, I’m in my bedroom in my bed because I cannot go to school today [laughs].

EMMA- Okay. Now, let’s go back to you, Katie, and let’s go back to basics actually. What is a children’s hospice?

KATIE- A children’s hospice is a really remarkable place. It’s somewhere where families can visit and stay when they’re needing that extra support with the child or children that they have that might be suffering with any life-shortening conditions. So, it’s kind of that safe haven, that safe space that they can come and just be themselves as a family.

EMMA- And what happens there, Katie?

KATIE- So, we’ve got a variety of things that happen here. We’ve got a very lovely accessible park. We’ve got our own hydro pool. We have various therapy spaces, and a lovely communal space for our families to meet, along with bespoke bedrooms for the children that we care for and their families.

EMMA- And it’s not just for children who are coming close to the end of their lives, is it?

KATIE- Definitely not. The support that we provide can be from diagnosis right through until their death. We try and reach as many families as we can. But unfortunately currently we are only meeting the needs of every one in ten families in Wales that are struggling with a child that has a life-shortening condition.

EMMA- And why is that?

KATIE- Mainly down to funding, Emma.

EMMA- What is your job? It’s a children’s rights and education practitioner, what is that?

KATIE- Yeah, what a unique role and amazing job title, I’ve got to say, Emma. I’m very blessed and honoured to have this role. My experience is a primary school teacher for over 23 years, and I just wanted to give something different, come out of teaching, so that’s when I joined Ty Hafan Hospice here. And I immediately recognised that there was a need for some bespoke education to take place, and what was happening to these children that couldn’t access education because they were too unwell to get to school. So, having had a visit from the children’s commissioner in Wales we spoke about education and we spoke about what it looked like for children in palliative care. And my role every day that I visit families and children and young people, it is different every day. For an example, I can deliver individual educational sessions for children that can’t get to school because they’re too unwell. I will visit the home and deliver an hour, hour and a half of fun learning, all tailored around the child’s likes and interests. So, that is normally for a period of over eight to 12 weeks.

EMMA- And what kind of learning do you do in those sessions?

KATIE- It’s always got to be fun. So, for example I’ve got a wonderful young person who’s ten years old, doesn’t access education at the moment, but his passion and his love is Roblox. So, my lessons are based all around Roblox.

EMMA- That’s a computer game?

KATIE- It is, it’s a computer game that he really enjoys playing. It’s his way of release, it’s his way of communicating with other people. He’s really knowledgeable on it. So, I will plan English lessons around Roblox where we describe a Roblox figure, I will design maths activities, times tables activities based around Roblox, or an art lesson. So, it’s all tailored around that individual and their likes.

EMMA- That’s amazing. I’m going to come back to some of the other things that you do shortly, Katie, but I do want to bring in George to get to know you a little bit. So, George, why do you use the hospice and what do you do there?

GEORGE- I use the hospice because most of my life is basically spent in my bedroom because I can’t go out often because of my disabilities and just difficulties with physically getting up and out. So, Ty Hafan will take me about four times a year for about five days and I can play games. I even sometimes go out to Barry Island to play on the arcades.

EMMA- Barry Island from Gavin and Stacey! We all know where that is. And how did you start working with Katie?

GEORGE- Katie, [laughs] when I first met her she was very not used to my sense of humour.

EMMA- She wasn’t used to your sense of humour. Why, what’s your sense of humour like?

GEORGE- I have a very morbid sense of humour. But I’m good at bringing people around to it. So, for the first few months of knowing Katie I was bringing her through to my sense of humour.

EMMA- So, what do you joke about, George? What kinds of jokes did you force upon poor Katie before she was used to them?

GEORGE- Well I am a teenager so you can imagine the type of jokes are very crude and…

EMMA- And morbid, as you said?

GEORGE- Yes, crude and morbid, yeah, your typical jokes that people wouldn’t often say without, like, do you know what I mean, like…[laughs].

EMMA- You can’t think of any examples that you can say on the podcast, is that what you’re telling me?

GEORGE- Yeah, basically [laughs].

EMMA- Okay. When Katie comes to your house what happens in the hour or two that Katie’s with you?

GEORGE- Maybe we’ll learn a bit of history because I like history. Or sometimes politics, I love my politics. Katie even came out to my school a couple of weeks ago.

EMMA- Katie came to your school, is that what you said, George?

GEORGE- Yeah, Katie came up to my school, she met my teachers, my TAs, my friends, the head of the school, and they all loved Katie.

EMMA- Oh, I’d say she’s absolutely crimson on the line there, George. Tell me, so you mix learning with Katie with your local school. How often do you get into your local school?

GEORGE- At the minute we’re aiming for once a week. It’s a bit difficult at the minute.

EMMA- Okay. So, once a week for a whole day?

GEORGE- Yeah, usually.

EMMA- And how do you feel after a day at school?

GEORGE- A bit tired but, you know, who wouldn’t be? I’m a bit sore because getting up hurts my hips and my legs, and they just ache. So, I’m a bit in pain afterwards, which is why it’s nice then when Katie comes up to the house to talk and teach.

EMMA- Right. You must spend quite a lot of time by yourself or with your family. It’s nice to have something different?

GEORGE- It is very nice, I’m not going to lie, it is very nice. So, having Katie come out, as well as the teaching, it’s also just brilliant company and it just makes time a little less lonely.

EMMA- Oh Katie, you must be just absolutely beaming listening to George there?

KATIE- A mixture of emotions, Emma, I’ve got to be honest. I’ve got tears on my eyes. I mean, this boy is remarkable. As a 17 year-old his outlook on life is amazing. And I’m blessed that I can work with him. But unfortunately this is common, this is really common for children and young people that their health conditions are getting in the way of their education, and that’s really not fair.

EMMA- And Katie, some might say what’s the point in educating children and young people who may not make it to adulthood. What would you say to that?

KATIE- That is unfortunately something that I hear often, and it absolutely devastates me when I hear it. And that’s why I’m all for trying to change that narrative. They’re still young people, they still might have years ahead of them. Medicine’s come on so much that these children and young people are living longer. And why should they be just at home, for example like George, in his bedroom not being educated, not being stimulated? Because let’s think education brings far more than just learning; it brings a whole variety of skills and ,more importantly for that young person, some social skills to interact with other peers and young people. And certainly for George he is fastly approaching 18 and this time next year he will finish in his mainstream school.

EMMA- Yeah, George, what are you going to do next?

GEORGE- So, at the minute, as Katie said, this time next year I’ll be leaving school so either going to a nearby college or another one that I am hoping for, which is called Star College. It’s a specialist college up in Cheshire.

EMMA- Is that National Star?

GEORGE- Yes, it is.

EMMA- Oh, I’ve been there. It’s awesome.

GEORGE- You’ve been there? Yeah.

EMMA- Aha. So, you’d like to go there?

GEORGE- Yeah, so hopefully I’m planning for a residential there. And I’m probably going to pursue drama.

EMMA- Oh drama, you’d like to do drama?

GEORGE- Yes. I have a knack for theatrics.

EMMA- You have a knack for theatrics? [Laughs]

GEORGE- Yeah. I want to help people, but I want to help them distract them from their struggles, even for just two hours while I do my thing, make people laugh, quell their pain a bit by laughter.

EMMA- Well, I have a feeling that I’m going to be talking to you again in the future, George. Please stay in touch with me because I definitely want to see what’s happening with you.

GEORGE- Thank you so much. It’s been lovely.

EMMA- Well, if you’ve used a hospice service, if you’re someone who could use Katie’s job in your life, or if you have a different experience all together please do get in touch with us, we love to hear your stories. You can send us a message on WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. Or you can send us an email [email protected]. And we’re on social media on X and Instagram @BBCAccessAll.

Paul Carter still with me. And Paul, you’re the BBC tech journalist extraordinaire so you might know a bit more about this than I do, the European Accessibility Act came out – not came out, what would you say?

PAUL- Came in.

EMMA- Came in [laughter], came in on 28th June, a European act. So, we’ve Brexited, so what is it and does it even apply to the UK?

PAUL- Well, as always with these things it’s not completely black and white. It does and it doesn’t. Basically it’s not part of UK law because we’re no longer in the European Union, but it does apply to any UK companies or organisations who are doing business in or with the European Union, so that’s obviously quite a lot of companies based in the UK so it will have quite a big impact here. And you’re right, it came in on Saturday on 28th June, but it does have a two-year implementation period so it’s not going to be an overnight thing that we’re all suddenly going to notice, it’s going to be a bit of a slow burn.

EMMA- What is it? What is it supposed to do?

PAUL- It’s to make a uniform a more uniform approach to accessibility for digital and electronic products and services. So, that’s anything from things you might buy in the shops, so smartphones, right through to websites, software, ticketing platforms, all those kinds of things.

EMMA- Does it include buying stuff in the shops with card machines? Will I be able to see buttons on card machines again? Because if I see another flat one with a flat screen and no speech I won’t be happy.

PAUL- I don’t know the specific answer to that very niche question.

EMMA- Oh sorry, so it’s not all about blindness, no?

PAUL- [Laughs] but there are supposed to be universal standards for each area that the act takes responsibility for, so let’s hope so.

EMMA- So, Paul, if it’s European, I mean I know you said that it will apply to companies that work within the UK, so for example I’m trying to book a flight to Ireland at the moment with a budget airline, that is European, not British, I’m struggling with their website, will their website have to be accessible in the next two years?

PAUL- It will, yeah.

EMMA- Boom! I love the EAA, European Accessibility Act. Alex Collins is here.

ALEX- Hello Emma.

EMMA- Hello. Our roving reporter on Access All. And Alex, you’ve been to a hackathon, haven’t you?

ALEX- Yes, I went to a hackathon at the University of East London, specifically the Rix Centre, which is a research centre focused at using tech to improve the lives of people with learning disabilities. And at this hackathon, now I’m not a very tech person as you probably know, tech isn’t my natural thing, so I wasn’t quite sure what to expect at a hackathon. But the idea of a hackathon normally is that you have people who are coders and they usually work together to find solutions. But this hackathon at the University of East London was quite different in the sense that they wanted to make it much more inclusive for people with disabilities. And so what you had was people with disabilities working with coders together. It was a very buzzy atmosphere. And what really struck me also was how global it was; the hackathon had people all the way from the United States, there was a big contingent from the University of Florida, but they also had people from New Zealand. And it just kind of gave it a really international flavour.

EMMA- Global. Let’s get a taste of what happened:

[Clip]

CRAIG- This is the big event. We are raising ways to allow for more disability access in day-to-day life.

MALE- We’ve been thinking about sleep, stress, jobs, we’ve been thinking about access to healthcare.

ALEX- What hack would you like to see?

FEMALE- That stuff is in easy read so that we can all understand what is being asked of us.

FEMALE- My purpose of being here today is to be able to explore the integration of sign language, digital media and neurodiversity.

CRAIG- So, a quick reminder, we’re now going back to our tables as where we look for solutions to the challenges that we’ve found and we’ve written on our pieces of paper.

MALE- So, instead of just coding something as you would in a traditional hackathon, we have much more diverse toolset that people are able to use to express their feelings, their emotions and their ideas.

FEMALE- On my table we have posters with writings and ideas and graphs and charts.

MALE- I’m 19, I’m Gen Z, I’m rambunctious, I’m loud, I like to party, I like to do things that other people my age like to do.

MALE- It’s fundamentally a bunch of different people from all different walks of life.

ALEX- And what do you think is the thing you’d like to hack? What things have you discussed about trying to solve?

MALE- What makes us stressed.

ALEX- And what makes you stressed?

MALE- Traffic on the roads, crowds on the buses and the trains.

ALEX- That sounds stressful.

CRAIG- Good luck everyone.

[End of clip]

EMMA- That sounds really kind of hands-on and crafty and kind of back to basics. There doesn’t sound to be like a load of coding going on there, and it sounds like people are doing lots of chatting and talking and having conversations about what would make their lives better. What’s the result of this hackathon, Alex? What are they hoping to achieve?

ALEX- Well, as you said, they’re just wanting to make their lives better, and they were having these very active discussions about the things that really annoyed them. But as Craig Wilkie there, who we heard in the tape, he’s the research fellow who runs the hackathon, he said the theme was healthy living. So, they were all really focused on trying to figure out ideas and tech solutions about that theme. So, some of the things that I heard discussions about, there was a prototype thing of something called an iFit app, and they wanted to think about creative ways that you could make your gym experience better, but also make it more accessible for disabled people. Because there’s this notion that a lot of gyms often are they don’t focus necessarily on people with disabilities. And they tried to sort of de-emphasise necessarily that there was a competition, but they did have a vote at one point to decide which app to take forward to potentially be developed.

EMMA- Who won? Who won?

ALEX- The winning app was by team Munchies, and it was called Cook-Able – see what they did there?

PAUL- Yeah.

ALEX- And they write here that it’s an audio/visual app using AI to help make cooking accessible. It would be for people with learning difficulties, so they would have a sort of easy read format, which there would be pictures on one side and there’d be text on the other. They also would make sure the text itself was very short, and they would also have text to speech features as well.

EMMA- And this is for recipes?

ALEX- This is for recipes, yes, that people would either choose themselves with the ingredients that they’ve bought, or they could preselect recipes. And I know myself I’m not a very organised person so I think I could benefit from that app by seeing the old mouldy vegetables in my fridge that probably haven’t been used and are out of date.

PAUL- I love that idea. It’s a bit of a throwback to, I’m showing my age here, but if you remember Ready, Steady, Cook?

ALEX- Of course.

EMMA- Yeah, where you got a fiver and you had to bring in a bag of ingredients. Nowadays it’d be like a loaf of bread and a hunk of cheese and that’d be it. I think they got about ten ingredients in the olden days. Alex, thank you so much for coming in and telling me all about the amazing hackathon that you went to.

ALEX- Thank you very much.

EMMA- Paul, you’ve been to hackathons before, haven’t you?

PAUL- I have, I love a hackathon. And we got a little bit of the flavour of it there from that audio. I just love the really inclusive nature of them and that really kind of buzzy can-do attitude. If anyone’s not been to one of them before I thoroughly recommend them, they’re a lot of fun.

EMMA- And have you had a hackathon where there’s been a really positive result, where something has gone much, much further than that room?

PAUL- Yeah. Well, I was at one once where each team had a disabled person on the team, and obviously I was one of them, and the idea was to create a product that that person could use, perhaps that they encounter a problem with in daily life. So, my team came up with this product, it was a kettle. And you’ll never guess the name of the kettle that we came up with, Emma. It was called, wait for it, this is a bit of branding genius, it was called Paul’s Kettle.

EMMA- [Laughs] I mean, actually I thought Carter would have been the word they would have used there, [laughter] the Carter Kettle. But Paul’s Kettle. All right, what does Paul’s Kettle do?

PAUL- So, it’s double walled so you didn’t get burnt when you pick it up, because at the minute all of my life whenever I poured water from a kettle I basically just have to lift it up and be quite quick and try not to splash boiling water on myself.

EMMA- And is that because you can’t lift it on the handle?

PAUL- Yes. So, it was double walled so you were able to grab it from anywhere without the surface of it being hot. But also the handle had a big kind of loop in it that I could fit my right arm through, so I was able to lift it on both sides. And it had a cutout on the other side. It’s quite hard to explain but basically it meant that I could lift…

EMMA- No, I can kind of understand it. Ergonomic for you so that you could use your arms to hold onto it, easily but safely.

PAUL- Exactly. And then it was also designed so the water wouldn’t run down the side and burn you. It was very smart. And it actually progressed quite far; there was some interest in taking it to market. But as with all of these things, it kind of petered out and never came to fruition. But, you know, Paul’s Kettle could have been on the shelf in your local department store.

EMMA- It’s beautifully low-tech as well. I love that it doesn’t have to be an app or a complicated computer programme; it can be an ergonomic kettle with a cool outer shell.

PAUL- Totally.

EMMA- Do you drink tea? How do you make tea now then?

PAUL- Well, the same way I always have, is just lift it up and try not to burn myself [laughs]. I’ve had various things over the years, they tried to give me these kettle tippers. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of these?

EMMA- I’ve heard of them but I’ve never seen one in the wild. What are they?

PAUL- But they only fit a very specific size of kettles and I just could never get on with them. Like with many things I’ve just found my own way of doing it that is probably not the recommended or even safe way of doing it, but that’s just the way I do it.

EMMA- I feel like the kettle tipper is one of those things that is an essential OT’s backpack, like the liquid level indicator for blind people.

PAUL- Totally, yeah. One day we should make a list of all of these things that everyone has been offered at some point in their life.

EMMA- So, I’ve been offered by occupational therapists and other people a liquid level indicator, which means that you put it in a cup and it beeps once, so you put the milk in first, say, and it beeps once when you…no, what is it, you put the water in first? I mean, this is a debate in itself, isn’t it, for tea, milk or water in first. You put one of the liquid elements in first.

PAUL- I mean, definitely the water, but carry on.

EMMA- Yeah [laughter], and it beeps when it gets to a certain level of the cup, the liquid. And then you leave it in and you put the next bit in, the milk, and it beeps when it gets near to the top of the cup so that you don’t overpour. But I forget where it is half the time.

PAUL- I was going to say, do you use this on a regular basis?

EMMA- No, I use my finger.

PAUL- [Laughs] I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say you use your fingers.

EMMA- Well, it’s just my finger’s always there, isn’t it, and it doesn’t need batteries.

PAUL- You’ve got, like, asbestos hands.

EMMA- I sort of do. I pick food out of the air fryer and everything with my hands.

PAUL- Oh my god!

EMMA- I do, because I’d have to find the tongs, then I’d have to position the tongs properly, not seeing where the food is. And then if I’d wanted to get a handle on the food I’d need to maybe use two hands, use one to kind of put a fork in it to find out where it is, and then use the tongs with the other. But then I’d have to pull the basket out properly and set it on the surface, which would just take ages, and someone would be shouting and me and I’d be trying to… You know, I just can’t be bothered.

PAUL- It sounds like we’ve both done remarkably well to get to our early to mid-40s without being horrifically scalded [laughs].

EMMA- Yeah, and I’m very proud. Paul Carter, it’s been a pleasure as always.

PAUL- Thank you so much.

EMMA- Thank you for joining me. And thank you everyone for listening to this episode of Access All. You can get in touch with us, [email protected] on the email about anything you’ve heard this episode or any of the other ones on our feed, there are many, many. You can also send us a WhatsApp message, a voice message or a text message. Just put the word Access before it and send it to 0330 123 9480. And we’re on the socials as well, Paul Carter, we’re on X and we’re on Instagram @BBCAccessAll. Thank you for listening. See you soon. Bye.

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