Have Your Say

Paul
Big brother forcing there technology on the youth again, training them into the repititous future that is in store... do we really not trust our kids even just for a school lunch? absolutely a waste of taxpayers money, couldnt that money be spent elsewhere on books or suchlike? madness, and we wonder why GREAT britain, just isnt so great anymore, we are just caught up in propaganda lies and waste and corruption fight the power

Ciara
I personally think it is a brilliant project and would love this to happen at my school!

John H Hutchinson
We use this system in our primary school library. The biometric system does not keep a photographic record, can not be used for police evidence and does not infringe civil liberties. The data is kept in the same format as a bar code. If a parent objects to the system, the readers name is recorded as a bar code. There is no difference. However, the system does not work for the very small prints of Y1, 2 & 3 children and is not 100% reliable on Y4 pupils.

Daniel
I don't see a problem as when I was at school 10 years ago now, we swapped our library cards for just our index finger print. I think it will be alot easier to introduced for all aspects of school life like registers, "signing" in and out of premisis and the replacement of lunch money.

Richard Cove
Frankly this is absolutely digusting. Say no to it . Rally other parents in the school and flatly reject it. Take the time to research the bigger picture regarding biometrics and R.F.I.D. It is actually very sinister.

michael devaney
David Coulter, appears to have his information confused with the Police finger printing system. The Biometric system that has been adopted by schools in West Yorkshire ensures that there are strict guidlines implemented at outset. The finger print can not be used by the Police or any other external organization. In addition the finger printing only takes up to ten different lines of the finger print. The police require that there system takes up to 30 strands of the finger. Unless the law of England and Wales is changed then the Police would not be able to acess school data, and incidently it would be of no use to them.

WENDY
I too have my concerns about fingerprinting at childrens schools. My seven year old daughter has had her fingerprints taken and these will be used for identification in taking out school library books instead of a card. As parents we were not consulted or asked for permission and only found out when my daughter told us. My complaints were ignored. The school has told us that the fingerprints will be used for library use only, but this does smack of 'big brother' to me.

Astonished
Complete madness. What's wrong with a photo ID card if necessary. It's a pointless use of technology just because it's there and some project manager has become excited by it. It's also an unneccessary waste of money. There will be a risk regarding data security which may lead to an adverse outcome. That's what a risk is. Complete nuts.

Richard (School Librarian)
It's sad to see the number of comments here from people who don't actually understand how these biometric systems work or those that perhaps do know how they work, but just want to jump on the bandwagon and knock something for the sake of it.I shan't go into the mechanics behind the system as I see others have already done so. However, I think it's worth reiterating again - these systems do not store a fingerprint! As an ex lawyer, I can assure people that they are perfectly legal too due to this fact. As a School Librarian now, I have to say that they have saved me loads of time when issuing books to a large class. There's also no possibility of students trying to claim someone had stolen their card and borrowed a book without their permission.

Jenny
Our school has just told us that we are to have this same system, but with a photograph included at the start of next term. We were just told how this would happen, no consultation at all.

A Connor
This is just the thin end of the wedge, what ever next?Is it being done merely to get pupils used to being fingerprinted, after all even hitler said, give me the children and I will give you the future.This school head and senior managemebt team should be sacked.

Richard
My place of work tried it for a while. We gave up on it due to unreliability and went back to old fashioned paper signing in.Concerning "Nothing to hide". How do you know you have nothing to hide? How do you know what data that is collected now may be deemed problematic or factored into an equation that deems you problematic in the future? We are judged on things like suitability to be parents, suitability for certain jobs. Are you happy for some data mining tool or arbitrary metric to make that decision about you?Is everything you do something you're completely happy with everyone else knowing? Are you sure no mistake will be made? So much can be told about us by things such as where we go, what be buy, what we read.

Nathaniel
i believe that the system is completely stupid since it was installed at Shirley High School recently since a claim from the head teacher claimed that all the schools were doing this so they thought they had to aswell. at the moment the system is being used to register a student in lessons and marks them late if they are a fraction over the time limit even by 1 second. not only does the system contain our biometric fingerprint but contains our photograph aswell as all the details given when you sign up into the school. the fingerprint systems are also regularly crashing due to the wi-fi network across the entire school which is place in every room on a teachers laptop. recently the school have decided to now use the fingerprint technolodgy to use as a way of payment in the canteen were by the parents top up using a e-card like on mobile phone in order for the student to buy lunch with a minimum payment at one time of £10, since the school will not be allowing any cash payments of food in the canteen which could prove problems for some students who have a school dinner once in a bluemoon this would mean that the school would be denying a student the right to lunch since they would not be able to purchase any food or drink. to me a student at the school i find this outragious to know that to buy food you must log in by fingerprint, and with the systems crashing frequently this could mean that eventually when the system crashes again would any students be able buy food since they would not be able to log in to the system.

Paul Grove
Biometric systems are increasingly common in schools and parental concerns about fingerprint recognition are unjustified. The databases are separate and even if they could be accessed would not be sufficient evidence for any case to be upheld in court.I have investigated and installed such a system and schools should not be asked to justify themselves against uninformed and sometimes prejudiced views.

Sarah Amery
Sadly, a bully can still get a victim to, for example, get them an extra helping of pudding. And the victim, using their very own fingers, will be able to give the bully all they want. No diffrence, really.

mr roger wood
why should we believe what the head teachers say,there past history tells us that we cannot trust there Judgment. I agree wuth Ron Young, Greenbank.teachers seem to think children have no rights at all.and they can do what ever they like with children.

Neil
I am quite shocked how many people regard fingerprinting to be so trivial for such trivial matters, I can't believe how naive parents and these so-called teachers (lost without a spell checker obviously)are. They seem to have blind faith in this technology. The government must love these sheep, they are just preparing our children for the police state hell hole this country will become thanks to the crooks in power, oh and a significant amount of ill-informed people that make up the British public. I dispair!!

mike robinson
i think that the fingerprints of all children from age 5 should be used for all security in schools.this could reduce all criminal dasmage in schools and should be used in colleges and universities.I also think that the resident parent should be made to pay in full for items damaged and the full cost of any detection,dna andd forensics test plus the full and true cost policeman and other manpower costs. after a few cases with costs awarded like these parents would be then more likely to take control of their children and their responsibilty for their action

ahmed
THe only reason why they want to do this is becasue it will save them money

Stephen
Yeh our school use this system for lunches. it is great. we used to have a card system, but as kids are, they always forgot them, lost them or were at risk of them being stolen. This system is secure and the likelihood of a child forgetting his/her thumb is unlikely. Any parent who thinks that it wil be an infringement of rights is daft.

Joe Johnson
The system takes a very crude multipoint measure that is good enough for a school population of a few thousand. The number gebnerated is not reversible into an image and does not have the resolution to be useful in identification of a finger print. If you had a finger and it was the one that was scanned and you had the right school, you could find out who the finger belonhged to but that is about it!

Che Pang
I think its a great idea. I love to give mine. Get the job done!

W. H-F
I can't help but think this is more of a 'stealth' method to get parents and kids (who will be the next generation) blasé about biometric 'tagging' etc.

Jen
I do not believe that this database could not be requested and/or used in some format by the police in the investigation of a crime. What legal basis does the school base this comment on? The idea that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about is naive - have some people not heard of 'miscarriages of justice'. Just because it's science and technology, it doesn't mean it is infallible.

Donna..Hopkins
A lot of fuss about nothingplease leave the poor headmaster alone.Get central govt to write some guidelines about such things+let the sshool get on with teaching.Rather than protesting about this, spend yr time doing some voluntary work,visit that elderly person in yr street +make their day alittle brighter.

David Wood
We already have this in the school I teach in and have had no peoblems. It has dramatically decreased playground bullying because the bullys have no money to take.

Technocrat
What a bunch of muppets. The system only takes part of an image not the whole thing... God waht a crowd of luddites - hey - I've got news for you, the worlds not flat after all! Move with the times :-)

Paul Clayton
Matt If we are saying that robbery is the issue this will only lead the robbers to move on to something different. Should we not be trying to make our schools safe?

Ian Washington
In answer to Mark:What next? Retina scans?Some schools already do that!

John Hodges
A wonderful system that is already in place in many schools for library access. In fact the system does not use "finger prints" in the Police sence, it uses measurements of each individual's digit. The bandwagon of "infringing my human rights" is wearing thin, If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. The only infringement to my human rights is the action of certain individuals who want to do me harm and most of the ways invented to catch these individuals (CCTV camera's etc) are blamed for infriging the rights they are trying to protect.

Matt
Working at a college I would suggest this in theory to be a good idea other than needing parental consultation (where necessary). If you believed our students you would have over 100 a week who have had their wallets/purses stolen thus dont have their ID cards. This results in the students having difficuilty in accessing college resources until a replacement card is issued. Replacement cards cost money which could be better spent, but more importantly, students not being able to access resources can have an obvious impact on their learning. Fingerprints may not be the ideal solution, but i would welcome any solution that students cant loose (have stolen), borrow, forget or have the dog eat!

Andrea
Our local secondary school (11-18yrs) has been using this method for a 12 months. The kids pay in cash in a lump sum or every day to a machine, then they pay for their lunches via fingerprint scan - no exchange of cash - parents can request to see a list of what their child has bought if they want - I think one of the ideas behind it was to stop kids having their lunch money taken?

John Bowen
Outrageous. Full support to parents objecting to this nonsense.There is no such thing as a secure computer system.

Helen
It is going to be used at our school and i think it will be much better and quicker, with so many pupils in the school. it doesn't do anything other than take the print of one of your fingers and a picture incase you get glue or something on your finger. and it is impossible to copy at our school, unless you manage o use someone elses finger ..

Jane
"If I wanted to create a surveillance society, I would start by creating dossiers on kindergarten children so that the next generation could not comprehend a world without surveillance." - Andre Bacard, author of 'The Computer Privacy Handbook' Personal information should stay personal.

Ron Young, Greenbank
Would the City Academy like to explain how taking the fingerprints of a minor without parental consent does not infringe civil liberties. Taking liberties is what this is!

Michael Stapleton
the school my child goes to have finger printed all the children with out consent. parants compained now consent forms have been sent out.If you don't like it complain, talk to others at the school gate, tell the local press, ask you MP if they are for or against(then vote),ps.. you have a voice

CHarlie
Although we don't quite live in the American dream [sic] where children turn from scholar to shooter - I think it quite likely that if a situation were to precipitate a police investigation within this school, the police would be able to request this data. Slipery slope - acadamy... What crimes will you deny this data and what crimes will you present this data?!?!?

Paul Clayton
" .... could not be used for police evidence ...."I do not believe it

Paul Clayton
"It is such a good system, and there is no infringement of rights, that there was no need for consultation," a school spokeswoman said.To translate, we know whats best so we don't have to ask anyone. Arogant fools!

Michael Stapleton
If you do not like this then get your MP to sign the early day motion EDM 686 (against school fingerprinting).

Andy Petrick
I like those people who say "if you have nothing to hide.." If these people are so not bothered about their details being public, post your email addresses on this list along with your telephone numbers! Can't you trust the people who read this to not pass them on to anyone else without your consent of knowledge? Dave Corn has hit the nail right on the head, the police or anyone else for that matter simply has to take an image of the print and put it on the scanner, then let it be read to get the results! So the childs ID could be stolen very easily, why not try it at your school, get your mates fingerpint image and see how fool proof the system is! We are simply allowing the government to teach our kids that their biometrics are for the plucking of the state at will.

Martin Towers
The schemes may well be very effective, but there is the issue of the use of sensitive personal data, which requires consent and some pretty robust protocols about teh data not being used elsewhere as i can think of sevral not unlikely scenarios where the police or other service would be bery interested in accesses such data

Ale, Bristol
It doesn't surprise me that they didn't consult. It was a similar thing with the nearby Packers field which the city academy redeveloped without properly consulting the local people - and hence running into a lot of planning and legal problems when it found itself at odds with the local community. I hope the academy can change it's ways and realise the value of consultation!

Lee Miller
Our school has been using this system for over two years now, not only for school meals but for the library too. I don't see what the problem is as the system doesn't store any pictures of prints that could be used to identify the owner, of course we could always go back to the archaic system of dinner tickets where kids who are on free school meals were segregated (and often bullied) from the kids who paid cash for their meals.

Jon
I don't want my children having fingerprints for lunch, it's hardly a balanced diet!

Steve Woods
The people who can see nothing wrong in the fingerprinting of children by schools really are, in the words of the Information Commissioner, 'sleepwalking into a surveillance society'. Do they care nothing for the liberties enjoyed in this country for which previous generations have fought and died?

Tim
my old school used figerprint scanners in the school libary and no one had a problem. I don't see the difference in this case. I think it is a sad state of affairs when parents think that they can not trust their child's school to act responsibly with such information.

Mrs L
My daughter started at high school this year & they have the fingerprint scheme in operation. There was no consultation however the scheme was fully explained & is working well. It means I can send in a cheque to 'load' her account & the school is also looking to allow sending of money via standing order so that the children are not carrying large sums of money whilst in school.

Niall Graham
why is this a news story, many schools have been doing this for several years now, the systems are totally secure and data cannot be used by the police

LORRAINE MCCORMACK
This system is already in use, to good effect, at my son's school. The fingerprints aren't used to identify a pupil by name, merely to link them to a particular account. I think its a good idea if set up properly and doesn't infringe on civil liberties, any outcry is just typical of the knee-jerk Luddite protest you get with new technology. Back in the good old days, the lunchtime assistants formerly known as 'dinner ladies' would probably have known every little oik by name rank and serial number anyway!

Amanda
Outrageous. This is the start of brainwashing children into accepting biometric measures as the "norm" for proving identity. No state that respects its citizens should treat them this way. Remember, the state belongs to us - if the state starts acting as if it owns us, body and soul, then we are on the road to hell.

Charles Brereton
I fully support those parents who are outraged at this invasion of privacy and waste of money. Perhaps the solution is to tell any school head that if they try any similar nonsense they will find themselves on List 99 - that should give them something to think about. (List 99 is a government database which lists persons who for various reasons are considered unsuitable for teaching children)

Baffled, Bristol
The people who are getting hot under the collar about this are probably the same 'liberals' who complain when schools do something similar in their libraries, so that kids can borrow books without the hassle of cards. What are people worried about? That at some point in the future someone's going to be interested in what little Johhny had for lunch one day in July. Or that he read Harry Potter!? There's no big deal here!

Michael Stapleton
Do you think it is a good thing to teach children to give Biometric imformation with out thought ?. May be we should tattoo numbers on the insides of there arms to help the system.

Rolf
This system was introduced at my son's school at Easter. On the first day of use, his finger produced three different names before it correctly accessed his account. I know he was using his finger because I saw him take it to school that morning.

kkf1724
My childs school introduced this with absolutely no consultation with parents or pupils and gave us just 24 hours to object. My child is now on packed lunch, and is excluded from ever being able to buy lunch at School, because I objected. The have effectively excluded her from lunch because the only option available is to have your fingerprints taken.No matter what they say those fingerprints are able to be accessed by other organisations including the police - just like the Data Protection Act - it doesn't apply in certain circumstances. There are other, equally effective ways to organise lunchtime, but Schools are taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Would you happily give over a piece of your DNA, to be held on a massive register, belonging to a company you know nothing about & at a moments notice, just to be able to get something to eat?

Jason
First it was registers, then it was ID cards, then it was finger printing followed by retina scans. And now we have a bar code tattooed on the back of our neck. Apparently numbers are more efficient that using our names.

Mike H
A very dangerous precedent! How typical of untrustworthy authorities to suppress a full and free discussion prior to the event. Watch out for more bad news like this!

paul crosbie
another step towards training our children to become slaves.

Vic Haines
Crazy - we're slowly drifting into a Nazi Germany type 'Papers Please' society where it seems normal to pester innocent people for their ID for no valid reason whatsover. Makes you wonder why we bothered fighting a war?

Lisa
This system has been used at my sons school in Northamptonshire for the past 8 months and is really sucsessful.it means we don't have to worry about him walking around with lunch money. the system is topped up with money when needed, and if for some reason there isn't enough money in it, he is allowed to go overdrawn for one day and then i top it up again the next day.i don't see what all the fuss is about.

Shiny Guru
Knee jerk reactionaries, the fingerprint data is not stored in a way that can be extracted to re-create the fingerprint. If you _want_ to moan about something take a look at the ways schools routinly ignore the data protection act with regard to the use of images of your children. which would concern you more, the chance of someone being able to determine your childs age, gender, name and e-mail address through data routinely made available, or the tiny chance that their finger print _might_ be recognised by a closed system sufficiently to charge you for their lunch.Howl like a mob, but pick pick the right targets people.

Simon Blakely
Which part of "... the biometric system did not keep a photographic record, could not be used for police evidence and did not infringe civil liberties." do people not understand. These are NOT evidential fingerprints. The system stores a single number (called a hash in IT speak) generated from a fingerprint, which cannot be turned back into a picture of a fingerprint. These systems are convenient, and work pretty well - and kids are less likely to lose fingers than id cards.

Julie
NO to fingerprinting kids! They are not criminals nor part of a criminal investigation. When I was at school we bought five dinner tickets on a Monday and used one a day to get lunch. Why does everything have to be so complicated and sinister? More and more I hate living in this country.

Mary
There are lots of schools using finger sensors for registration. It is nothing new and cannot be stolen like a card and used by someone else.

Mike Rotch
Yet another system set up for one reason that will probably end up being used for another as with schemes introduced in the uk over recent years .

mrs smith
We already do this. The pupils and staff really have no choice in the matter. Its either finger print or no lunch.. the choice is yours... Thanks PFI

CMS
Fabulous idea! My Daughters school (primary) use this for their library, so that the children can borrow books without having to remember cards. It converts their finger prints to a number, so does not store their actual fingerprint. Inspired!

Kevthebrit
Chip implants would be the ideal way to go for ALL!

steve
It is an illeagal move. The civil rights of the child are being invaded upon. Even a prisoner has to give consent to be finger printed.The whole reason to have registration is to see who is at school. Every school knows who has a free scool diner, it has to be registerd by the childs parents at the beginging of the school term. It is another form of incidious control by a miority over the majority.There is no evidence of security control. So much so that China has made it illegal. Stop being blind, wake up or be controled from cradle to the grave.

Mike - Yate
If you have nothing to hide, having your finger prints or iris scans taken and used to help and protect an individual should not be a problem. In our 21st Century climate of terrorism, we need such systems to help protect us!

Jon Rosling
It is an infringement of liberties and the school and local authority simply repeating that it isn't will not get away from the fact. I find the manner with which the school brushes aside parental concerns quite alarming and typical of a certain attitude in education authorities in this day and age. Aren't schools providing a service for the public and these parents? Have they forgotten their role as service providers to us? The school is not there for its own benefit.

Mark (a teacher)
How worrying to see so many unsupportive parents. The main reason for introducing cashless lunch systems is to reduce the chance of bullying and theft of lunch money. Anyway, if you read the report, these systems don't store images of prints but a code based on the fingerprint. Schools already hold far more sensitive, and more easily misused, information about students (contact details, family details, medical history etc.). If a school doesn't keep that safe, it will be in breach of data protection laws. Biometric data would be similarly protected.

Umbrine Fatima
It is ridiculous and sets a dangerous precedent, to fingerprint children in order to serve them lunches at school! It seems the school is part of some invetigational study sponsored by the government, the success or failure of which will dictate future steps to curtail civil rights further.

Nick
The only people with any grounds to object are criminals trying to avoid detection. This information is a sensible alternative to swipe-cards (how often do you leave your fingers at home?) and a usefull way of combatting youth crime.

Dave Korn
It's simply not true to claim that these things can't be used for police evidence, based on a misunderstanding of the computer algorithms behind them.The recognition is based on a computer technique called "hashing", which takes a large set of data (such as an image of a fingerprint), and combines and compresses all the data down to one short string of digits (a "hash") that represents a kind of incomplete summary of all the information that was in the original set of data. The fingerprint reader stores the "hashes" of all the fingerprints it is supposed to recognize; when a fingertip is pressed onto the pad for testing, it performs the same hashing algorithm on the image of that fingertip and then just compares the hash against the stored hashes of all the fingerprints it is supposed to recognize to see if they match. Although the hash contains much less information than the original fingerprint image, the hashing algorithm is carefully designed to make it very unlikely that any two fingerprints would ever produce the same hashed result.The claim that this device cannot be used to identify fingerprints is false, based on the red-herring that the "hashing" technique cannot be reversed to obtain the original data set from the short string of numbers. While that is indeed correct, it is a misunderstanding to think that you would even /need/ to reverse the hash and get back to the original image in order to compare a suspect fingerprint with the known ones which the reader has stored. You wouldn't try and unhash all the fingerprints it stored and then look visually to see which one looked the same as the suspect fingerprint. You would do it the other way round: take the image of the suspect fingerprint and hash it too, the same as the others. If it produces the same result as one of the stored hashes, you have a match.So, of course it can be used to identify people by their fingerprints - it wouldn't be any use if it wasn't. And if it can do that with a real finger, it can do the same for the image of a finger taken as a sample.The claim it doesn't impinge on your privacy is simply false.

John Mungovin
This is not new. We've had the same system in our library for 18 months. No problems at all.

mark
Wot Next!! Retina scans??.

Lee
Absolutely ridiculous. Why are so many public sector organisations attempting to usher in expensive and grotesque electronic monitoring devices that do the same job as an ID card? £20,000 just to dish out school dinners is unbelievable.

Irene
This is draconian - my husband was asked for a thumb print when renting a car. Welcome to a police state run by various administrations with no common sense whatsoever. Parents please stand up for your children!!

Stuart
It is completely unacceptable to do this. There are a multitude of equally acceptable methods without this intrusive and highyl suspect gathering of personal information.

Paul
Disgraceful!How can fingerprinting anyone not be an infringement of their rights?What expertise does the school spokeswoman have to justify her claims that it is "such a good system" anyway? Is she an IT expert? A human rights lawyer?

Robina
This is yet one more way of educating the upcoming generations to blindly accept fingerprinting etc as an everyday fact of life. My children have been educated to NEVER allow their fingerprints etc to be taken without me present and without my express permission, no matter what the pressure from the school is. The same as they have been educated to NEVER sign anything the school gives them without my approval (such as those absolutely ludicrous and useless "home/school agreements" - which I've refused to sign for the last 10 years).

Gary Partridge
If you have nothing to hide then why worry about it, if it bothers you that much then move your child to another schoold without these systems

Sue Boyd
i have four children, and, should the school that 3 attend try to bring in a system like this, i'll have four words for them - over, my dead and body. absolutely not, no way, not ever. it's a gross invasion of their privacy, an infringement of their human rights and i don't believe a word about data bases being secure or the police not having access to them. anyone who does must be mad.

Derek
This is an appalling invasion of privacy - and no matter what the school says, "function creep" is inevitable.

Angie
My childrens school (in wakefield) implemented this technology this last school year. We recieved a letter about it happening but there was no opt out clause or any option to express views. My main concern is that ultimately the fingerprints are in the hands of third parties and who knows who will buy/ use the information at a later date.

Dave, Morpeth.
A Primary School in Northumberland is already doing this to issue their library books. As long as there's no permanent record, and nobody sells the fingerprints on it should be fine. Schools do need to have rigid and defined approval and data protection policies though - as well as appropriate physical security for the computers involved.

Derek Charles
And how exactly is the school going to safeguard this most personal of information?

Jonathan Butler
I take it that this Academy does not teach any of the old skills; woodwork, metalwork. If it does these poor children will be unable to get their lunches when they rub off their finger-prints after performing manual work - such as sanding. I myself had lovely smooth fingerprints after a prolonged period of DIY. IT has never been a panacea - there is no IT silver bullet for their problem, which is essentially a management issue.

M Hill
This system may be "more efficient" for the school but what a downright liberty to take as far as the pupils and their parents are concerned with no consultation.