That was the week ...

"But of course there are consequences."

The lessons we learn when young stay with us, for better or worse, throughout our lives. In recent years, young people have effectively been taught that rules are for others, and that respect is something they can demand, not something which must be earned. Consequences? You're 'avin a larf!

Check previous theft/burglary charge records of people in rioting areas, and see if they have any involvement in rioting.

August 10, PM announced communities from which it is alleged the 'rioters and looters' emanated from were "sick".
I'd like revert to an aspect of the state's response (or lack of) - namely my contention that the forces of 'law and order' deliberately allowed fires to burn & shops to be looted, as it served to demonize the people involved as well as justify the use of heavy firepower & complete lockdown (which happened yesterday).
Meanwhile, Cameron, had this to say to the assembled MPs on the subject:
There were simply far too few police deployed on to our streets and the tactics they were using weren't working. Police chiefs have been frank about why this happened. Initially the police treated the situation too much as a public order issue - rather than essentially one of crime. The truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge with different people doing the same thing - basically looting - in different places all at the same time.
It's a pretty-sounding statement, but the actual difference escapes me as far as it comes to imposing law and order on the streets - public disorder vs. crime.
As for the statement: "Basically doing the same thing in different places at the same time"? What does this mean? Perhaps nothing because it is nonsensical.
Why didn't he answer something big and Prime Minisyerial - like why all the major cities of England and Wales produce virtually simultaneous uprisings?
Cameron's 'analysis' says that every criminal in towns across the land decided to go on a robbing/looting spree at exactly the same time (telepathy?). Hence the babbling about Twitter, Facebook, etc. facilitating the insurrection.
Rather than accept responsibility for creating conditions that led to this vast, destructive rage, the Cameron/state needed to transform this great mass of disaffected people into criminals vs people - desperate, frustration, struggling...
The streets locked down now - working class ghettos - preliminary to police state?
The looting and violence, Conservatives argue, actually plays to one of Mr Cameron's long standing nroken narratives about the "Broken Society".
Many traditional Tories will also have been delighted by his clear and uncompromising stance on law and order, with its promise of more arrests, more prison places & dismissal of concerns about human rights.
Millions of young folk abandoned in neglect have been transformed into a criminal sub-class and will of course, be dealt with accordingly.

I’m convinced US is sitting on the same sort of powder keg as UK. We have desperate young people without hope who have seen their parents’ homes foreclosed (sometimes) fraudulently, have watched libraries close & teachers laid off, have seen tuition rates spike, & have watched a corrosive political process.
DC is imploding without alleviating the recession’s toll on ordinary people. The suffering of ordinary people is taxing patience, building the rage. I’d urge both Obama & Cameron Administrations to pay close attention to the mood on Main Street. It’s getting tight - a recipe for violence and insurrection.

Cathartic events, self-feeding and an expression of anger and dissatisfaction. No one cause as many have different reasons to be unhappy these days. The people have been burdened with the bad loans of the banks while the banks are doing well and paying bonuses. Services are cut in a draconian manner to pay for this swindle. Certainly those with no wrong doing have been harmed.the wealthy and their properties always receive better protection. The government rationales only reflect what has been wrong from day one...not holding those who caused it all responsible. The governments see the people as ungrateful..you have to be in the ruling class to think that way. Next will be Chinese consultants on police policy..they seem to have a system that averts such events. Policies that promote the consolidation of wealth generally have these results. Let us send another letter to Syria and Libya about the government attacks on the people showing discontent with their governments. Brutality comes in many forms..stealing people's retirements, taxing the people to secure the wealth of the wealthy and a lack of any moral compass of the government.

What surprises me is not that looters believed that they could break the law with impunity, but that people expected them to believe they would be punished. Large numbers of MPs and Lords fiddled their expenses, yet only a token few were prosecuted, it took public outrage to force court action against journalists and police officers caught up in the phone hacking scandal, white collar fraudsters who've brought misery to thousands escape prosecution on legal technicalities, the list goes on and on... Why wouldn't anyone looking at that lot believe that it's OK to steal and there won't be any consequences. I applaud the tough line taken with the rioters and looters, but I'd like to see it applied equally across all of British society. How can our Country's leaders expect the people at the bottom end of our society to show ethics and honesty when so many at the top continue to disregard them with impunity.

#6 Graham

"How can our Country's leaders expect the people at the bottom end of our society to show ethics and honesty when so many at the top continue to disregard them with impunity."

--Correct !

-- But that is the way it has ALWAYS been --and it IS EXPECTED to remain that way --that is called ´Law and Order´ by the ´Elite´

--Moral of the story --- Stick with driving when drunk.

--Much safer !

Media call the poor who have been striking back in England "looters, rioters & even criminals". For years, this same media (the advertising portion) has been telling the poor they should have all those things in the shop windows they see in television ads when they can barely feed their families. They're finally telling ruling class:
"If we should have them - and cannot buy them - we'll take them!"
Cause recent rioting in England is that the rioters, some of the poorest people in England, are raging at how the police have been tormenting them prior to the rioting, & how the Govt has deprived them of jobs & chance to enjoy the wealth that society produces. This is not a race thing, it is a CLASS thing.

The Bishop of Manchester got it exactly correct -- "Let he who is without sin -cast the first stone"

-- this anti-social behavior and mentality -- goes from the top of society all the way down ---and in that order !

Violence is not mindless. Politics of burning buildings, smashing windows, or a young man shot by police may be obscured. Unquestionably there is far more to these riots than death of Mark Duggan. A peaceful protest over the death of a man at police hands, in a community where locals have been given every reason to mistrust the forces of law & order, is one sort of political statement. Raiding shops for technology & trainers that cost ten times as much as the benefits you’re no longer entitled to is another. A co-ordinated wave of civil unrest across the poorest boroughs of Britain, with young people coming from across the capital and the country to battle the police, is another.
Months of conjecture will follow these riots. Already, the internet is teeming with racist vitriol. The truth is that very few people know why this is happening. They don’t know, because they were not watching these communities. Nobody has been watching Tottenham since the television cameras drifted away after the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985. Most of the people who will be pontificating about the disorder this weekend have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up in a community where there are no jobs, no space to live or move, & police are on the streets stopping/searching you as you come home from school. One NBC report hit the nail on the head. Reporter: Was all this worth it?
Rioter:‘You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?
The British ruling class surely knew that inflicting police stop/search abusively on people whom they also deprived of jobs & hope for a decent life would eventually cause the victims to strike back in anger. Now we can see why RULING CLASS CAUSED THIS.
Why?
PM Cameron: To the law abiding people who play by the rules, and who are the overwhelming majority in our country, I say: the fightback has begun, we will protect you. If you've had your livelihood and property damaged, we will compensate you. And to the lawless minority, the criminals who have taken what they can get, I say this: we will track you down... we will punish you. You will pay for what you have done.
Oh, and Cameron is seriously considering disrupting mobile phone messaging services & social networks in times of civil disorder.

"PM Cameron: To the law abiding people who play by the rules ---" ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-family-granted-new-right-of-secrecy-2179148.html

#8 Bluesberry

"This is not a race thing, it is a CLASS thing."

--it always was and always will be " a CLASS " thing.

The cry for retention of ´British Sovereignty´ is no more than worries that the EU will force the treatment of all British citizens to be equal -- the Feudal system is Britain´s ´achilles heel´ and the government, police, armed forces and law courts have taken ´the oath´to uphold it.

--From taxes, land ownership and other ´Feudal perks´

Youth (child) alienation within the British society began in the 60´s.

-- In some schools pupils were not given their hard earned certificates until they cut their ´long hair´. Then followed the ´right to search´by the police (seeking drugs).

Many are now parents (or grand parents) --but the change of attitude towards the police has changed dramatically. Innocent´s ( or not so innocents)) who were searched are unlikely to see the police with the same eyes as before. Bad news traveled quickly in schools and on the streets.

The ´right to search´ is still one of the main complaints of the young but now millions have been ´searched´ --children, parents and grand parents and of all races (some more -- some less). If they are not searched then they are on CCTV being continually distrusted by the state, police and businesses.

Those who claim such invasion of privacy was and is necessary -- started the ball rolling -- it can now be found in the cellar !

It appears the BBC has now closed Sunday blogging ?

-- or is the silence much more sinister ?

Milliband, Clegg and sundry politicians are calling for an enquiry into 'the causes of the riots in England'.

They and their cohort could just simply look in the mirror.

Politicians have been responsible for a general education system over the past few decades, which is currently outputting 20% of its 'product' as functionally illiterate and innumerate.

In effect, the changes to the education system that politicans introduced in the 1960's and on, have bootstrapped an initial generation of children ill-equipt to handle the world of work, and who have subsquently spawned further generations also totally unsuited to the workplace.

These politicians have an awful lot to answer for with their mad-cap social engineering schemes which has so blighted our England.

But has even one of their cohort stood up and said ... we were terribly wrong.

As it happens, one of them has - David Blunkett - a few years ago admitted that the comprehensive experiment had 'broadly failed'.

Which leads one to ask why has'nt something been done about it?

Rioting in Britain has spread through London to other cities. Those in power need to carefully separate
- legitimate grievances from
- lawlessness of youthful looters.
Riots have destroyed many small businesses & homes of poor people, white and non-white alike. These riots were not about unemployment. Rioters weren't screaming for jobs; rather, they saw a window & wanted what was behind the glass.
Trigger was yet another death of a black man while in police custody. Over 330 people have died in police custody since 1998 WITHOUT THE CONVICTION OF ONE, SINGLE OFFICER. There are systemic social ills - e.g. economic inequities, unchecked police misconduct that too many leaders simply ignore. Slashing of social service funding, particularly for youth related matters from education to recreation has accelerated the conversion of Tottenham into a “tinder box"” (Diane Abbott, the first black women ever elected to Britain’s Parliament.)
Compounding the growing list of ignored ills are austerity measures - cuts that have devastated funding for desperately needed social services. Step back. Look at big picture: richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest. Enough!
Young people feel their representatives do not care about them. Are the young people right?
One consistently criticized British police practice is the infamous policy of “Stop-&-Search,” which, as in the United States, targets racial minorities disproportionately.
“Stop-&-Search” (“SUS”) rivals fatal shootings by police for generating outrage. In October 2010 the Guardian reported that blacks were 26 times more likely than whites to be stopped. In March 2011 many in Britain expressed outrage over the police custody death of David Emmanuel, a 48-year-old widely known as Smiley Culture. Police contend that Emmanuel stabbed himself to death by ramming a knife completely through his body while in the kitchen of his London home while surrounded by 4 policemen.
Much news media coverage of the disturbances has lacked analysis. What is shockingly missing is a perspective from the black community to articulate the dynamics. What we have is condemnation without even trying to understand.

#16 JohnConstable

For once someone else that has understood where the rot started, the destruction of grammar schools that prevented people in poor areas, the imposition of comprehensive education to create decades of dumbed down serfs, and finally we have people like QOT talking about a class struggle. If there is a new class it is the greedy, ignorant Socialists who have employed their mates as civil servants, clip board holders, racial advisor's, elf and safety execs, diversity specialists, need I continue, YOU'RE FIRED should be the new policy.

#18 Buzet 23

"--- YOU'RE FIRED should be the new policy." ?

I have been saying that for ages -- but you keep re-instating the incompetents, with hand on heart and tears in your eyes as the flag waves.

I obviously expect different capabilities from an education than you do -- that is basically where we differ.

#19, QOT

The difference between us is that you keep on living in the past and referring to royals, lords, ladies, the empire etc. I have never heard you identify that the new class are the fonctionaires that have been appointed throughout the EU by the Socialists in charge of the EU, and by Bliar and McClown when they ruled the roost in the UK. I have never heard you criticise the type of target orientated fools that were so loved by Labour, clip board holders, racial advisor's, elf and safety execs, diversity specialists, to whom the administrative tasks and targets were more important that what the task was about.

As for an education I would expect a system to concentrate on the basic 3 R's and after that the traditional arts and sciences, not loads of useless trendy courses that are of no use in finding work afterwards, but which the ultra liberals use to indoctrinate youngsters into a politically correct dumbed down intellectual state.

17. At 18:01 15th Aug 2011, BluesBerry

You ask for an analysis of what has gone on and question the stop and search policies. If you lived in one of these areas then that question would not need to be raised, I was born and grew up in Lambeth, not far from Brixton, and still have close family there. If there was one aspect I continually saw as being a root cause of the problems it's the attempts by the hard left to incite the people by perpetually claiming racism and discrimination is everywhere. It is not but if it's said enough some start to believe, that was the original dynamics of the 60's and 70's when Lambeth was loony left, and it was not just black and white but black and Asian peoples of several different ethnicities that did not really like each other. Since then far more ethnicities have entered the picture and the fallacy of those who claim it is black versus white is very evident, it is far more than that.

The root cause of a lot of this aggression lies in the education system that was hijacked in the mid 60's by the ultra liberal left wing, they infiltrated teacher training colleges, universities and ensures several generations of inept but politically correct teaching staff, thus ensuring the last thing students should be allowed to learn was anything that could earn them a job afterwards. It is too late to reverse the damage done to these generations as to make them employable, they would need to have the motivation to go to college and learn the basics of the 3 R's.

What can be done, I have no idea to be honest as most of these people are unemployable, even if there were jobs available and there lies the big problem. How can you expect an employer to set up shop in an area where a large part of the workforce has been brought up in a culture where nothing is earnt.

#20 Buzet 23

"The difference between us is that you keep on living in the past and referring to royals, lords, ladies, the empire etc."

With the past controlling both the present and the future in Britain ( and having another 20 postings removed yesterday -- on those topics -- with British links) --I beg to differ that your support of of the past is not indicative of the centuries old restrictive and oppressive tradition --- you being an educated member of that age and system --if I am not mistaken ?

22. At 10:00 16th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

I am a product of the post war baby boomer age as I suspect you might also be, but that does not mean I am pro or against tradition and the empire as the empire was basically finished by the time I became interested in politics. The difference is that I don't let it rule my head as it is in the past. Any concept that there is a privileged class also largely disappeared with the advent of hard line pseudo Communism/Socialism from Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan. As I said, if there is a class now it is those in the public service or fonctionaires and if I was to feel any antagonism it would be to them rather than traditional old Lords and Ladies.

Bad luck about the mods, if it was amongst the new format I'm not surprised as it seems you only have to sneeze to be removed.

Buzet23 @ 18

You choose to emphasize that ... the destruction of grammar schools that prevented people in poor areas .. {from climbing the ladder}.

In my opinion, although this destruction of Grammars was and still is, unfortunate for the 10% or so of children who really could have benefited from that type of education, usually progressing onward to University; the real tragedy is for the maybe 40% of secondary level pupils who really would have gained from utilizing the 'third' technical stream.

Frank Field MP, seems to be one of the few of that political cohort who recognizes that the failure to develop the technical stream has severely inhibited our England.

By this failure, politicians have yet again wreaked havoc on our children in England and really do need to look in the mirror.

NB. This blogger has a special interest in secondary technical schools, having attended one of only two technical schools in England during the mid-1960's, by way of contrast at that time the Germans had 12,000 technical secondary schools. Does anybody wonder why the Germans are able to design and manufacture at a level that is at least an order of magnitude above ours. These politicians, down the decades in England, really do have a lot to answer for.

#24 John Constable

--- Germany has a separate course ´Maschinebau´--machine building. This with a large apprenticeship base and Germany paying companies to keep employees -- has helped them to (until now) weather the storm.

24. At 13:11 16th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

I think grammar schools would have benefitted far more than 10% of the population since you normally had at least 600-800 pupils in such schools, but I also agree with your synopsis about technical schools. In the early 70's I did a HNC in a tech college and found the lecturers far better than teachers as they knew both the theory and the practice. In Belgium they seem to have followed your wish as there are in reality three streams, those that are in no way academic do a technical course and maybe apprenticeship and that works well for them. Those that are academic can carry onto 19 in one of two ways, pure academic studies or qualification studies whereby they finish with a real qualification as well as the diplome superior. My daughter studied business and finish with a diplome superior plus being able to be a book keeper and start and run a business as she was taught VAT, and accounting. That to me is useful education.

When I compare this to what my young grandchildren are saying to me from England I am pretty aghast.

Buzet23 @ 26

I got the 10% Grammar population by working back from what was historically the percentage going to Uni (from mostly Grammar and Private schools), which was around 12% until the previous Government decided that an arbitrary figure of 50% was appropriate (it was not and has consequently, from an employers perspective, reduced the value of a Uni education).

We should not really mention Belgium because the country currently makes our politicians extremely uncomfortable - that is, Belgium seems to have managed quite well without any sort of Government for the past 18 months or so and I suspect we English would do likewise, given the opportunity.

Pendants may point out that we English do not actually enjoy our own Government anyway, unlike the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.

More fool us for putting up with that situation.

27. At 17:19 16th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

I'm not quite sure where the previous Labour governments come into this equation as the damage had been done in the 60's and 70's when Wilson and Callaghan were in charge. I got the start of it in Lambeth as my school was one of the first to get hit in favour of a certain ex-mayors comprehensive school, known locally as the matchbox factory. In the case of people like me who had passed the 11+ from a working class family we were somehow elitist, and their efforts to close my elitist school resulted in many teachers leaving, thus the schooling collapsed.

As for Belgium the situation reminds me of Scotland and the Scots are very much like the Flemish, very single minded and not too bright when it comes to economics, as England as seen in the last 13 years of Socialism. The only thing that has continued without government is that their snouts are all still in the trough (um, Brown). The PS leader of Wallonia who is the current formateur went on holiday for three weeks as did almost all politicians, then he returned and said finding a resolution was urgent, no doubt before going for an expenses paid meal. Cynicism, yes most certainly, they are not serious, any of them.

Buzet23 @ 29

Your experience in Lambeth sort of matches my own in my home county. Due to some county politics, the funding for myself at my secondary technical school, where I was boarding, was withdrawn, and I found myself at one of the very first comprehensives, whuch only two years before had been a Grammar.

I soon noticed that the few ex-Grammar teachers who were still there were utterly demoralised. They simply could not cope with some of the children who were ill-disciplined, the ethos of the school had been turned on its head.

The comprehensive education system was meant to be an experiment but political dogma (both Labour and Tory) meant that this 'experiment' was imposed across the whole country, rather than in carefully selected areas, as per a genuine experiment.

Now we fully reap what those those politicians sowed all those decades ago, The educationalists of the time warned that the full results of the 'experiment' would not be seen for decades and here we are.

Obviously there are other factors besides education that have bought us to this place and even if positive changes were made right now, it would still be a decade before we English were out of the hole.

For us English, this is our punishment for being notoriously disinterested in politics.

30. At 23:48 16th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

I quite agree, I was discussing this with a friend Yesterday who knows both Belgian and French schooling and has seen the events in England. We both thought that the current generation(s) are in effect a lost generation since the education they received was so flawed by Socialist ideology and political correctness. I doubt we'll hear this from any party in parliament, especially the Labour party, since it means that over 50 years the education system has been destroyed.

The question that then presents itself is how to correct the rot, the subject matter for courses need scrapping with schools concentrating on traditional subjects that businesses actually require and respect. Useless subjects like media studies should be dropped totally as they can be followed in further education if the child wishes to pay for that. More should be done for apprenticeships for the less academically inclined. Teachers and teacher training colleges and universities need to be made to concentrate on the subject matter and ignore politically correct topics and ideological indoctrination, i.e. healthy eating and inspecting lunch boxes should be banned, they are the actions of a police state. Finally, and this is when it counts, the ridiculous human rights laws sponsored by both the ECHR and EU must be repealed and a toned down English version adopted. That way teachers can be allowed to install discipline and ethics without the threat of parents and students suing them.

As an aside it is clear that for primary schools at least, more and better books need to be available as those that schools use now are too easy and a reasonable child soon surpasses the hardest books a school has available. The concentration on IT, which is my expertise, is a retrograde step since it ignores the 3 R's in favour of texting, tweeting and other media talk, as proof of this look at the standard on many blogs, writing is difficult for the majority it seems.

#28 John Constable


"Pendants may point out that we English do not actually enjoy our own Government anyway, unlike the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish."

--What are you worried about ?

Scottish Parliament oath --

The oath states: "I (Member’s Name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God."

The affirmation states: "I (Member’s Name), do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law."

Buzet23 @ 31

This Englishman is not really interested in labeling policies as 'Socialist' or 'Conservative', it does not seem to be a very productive exercise.

However, for the record, the editor and journalist Andrew Neill records in his autobiography that he begged Margaret Thatcher, not let the 'Neanderthals' in his home city, Glasgow, 'destroy' his alma mater - a Grammar.

Neill notes that these Tories do not seem particularly exercised about Grammars becoming 'Comps', Neill presumed that that was because the Tory elite sent their own children to private schools so the Comprehensive Education policy did not really affect them.

Still does not to a large extent, which presumably explains their inertia regarding changing a broadly failed experiment - which short changes the children of England.

The problem with Higher British education until the 60´s -- was the lack of it.

The way to university was blocked by such subjects as Latin, Greek and foreign languages, The ´dummies´ had only technical and Science subjects --and if they came from poorer families-- at evening school --after a hard days work.

A poor education is better than none -- at least it can open the mind to other possibilities in life -- even immigration to Australia (which was standard practice at the time --with or without a higher education).

Technical and research work were always low paying in Britain -- and the higher paying professions -- just by chance (?) -- mainly landed with the same ´professional class´

-- A ten-pound one-way ticket to Australia would still be attractive for many.

-- if education is for those who can afford it -- then no matter how the system is changed -- the effect is only ´Forward to the Past´

quietoaktree @ 34

My late friend Dave took the £10 assisted passage to Australia in the 1960's.

It did not turn out quite as he expected.

After being there a while, he got a letter which told him to report to some place in Queensland.

To cut a long story short, Dave had been drafted and soon found himself in Vietnam, which was a deeply unpleasant experience as the 'Aussies' were invariably placed at the sharpest of the sharp ends by the Yanks.

Dave survived all this in Vietnam but where he had been programmed in the jungles of Queensland to become a killing machine, there was no consequent deprogramming at the end of his tour of duty and he got into lots of trouble back in Oz Civvy Street, eventually returning to England; where he eventually calmed down and worked successfully until he was killed on his way to work by a drugged-up burglar who t-boned Dave's car.

Dave's assisted passage to Oz had turned out to be an excursion to Hell and his ultimate fate was'nt too good either.

Sometimes there are no happy endings.

34. At 13:23 17th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

The way to university was blocked by such subjects as Latin, Greek and foreign languages, The ´dummies´ had only technical and Science subjects

You have to be joking QOT, that is absurd, science subject often needed Latin due to the naming of the table and medical people needed to know Latin as well, just who in your bizarre mind were actually dummies and found their way blocked, the arts students, the historians etc? Many of the people I went to school with went on science courses to university and we did study Latin by the way. Your lack of knowledge continues to amaze.

35. At 13:54 17th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

Ignore QOT, | have long wondered just what turned his mind so badly, the £10 ticket was a chance but many who took it up were not really suitable. My ex spent 3 years near Brisbane as her Postman father tried it, big mistake, as he was unable to integrate and therefore returned back to England. Maybe luckily for him he was not called up as I think it was after Vietnam, I doubt he would have survived.

However I did visit where they lived and loved it, not an easy life but very pleasant.

As for QOT's "-- if education is for those who can afford it -- then no matter how the system is changed -- the effect is only ´Forward to the Past´", he conveniently forgets that Socialism needs the serfs to be uneducated, after all, those who can think question the value of what is happening. The past relied on serfs being servile just as most politics does now, and especially Socialism. What we have just seen is due to there still being an element of intelligence despite the persistent dumbing down, the destruction was a disgrace but the fault of the ultra liberal and hard left who seek to enslave. PS QOT, only the apparatchiks will be able to afford decent education, but then that's predictable dictatorship.

33. At 12:25 17th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

Interesting post, the dark years of Wilson and Callaghan were split by Heath who was a closet Liberal/left which meant nothing was corrected. Thatcher when she followed her instincts was good, however the establishment/advisers hated her and conspired to get her removed under the pretext that she didn't listen to the advisers. After that Major was ordinary and although very bright not a university product, therefore I suspect he was scared to take on the establishment. As you know we then had the Bliar and McClown years when the establishment was further loaded with ultra liberal and politically correct left wingers.

Thinking that the ultra liberal and PC left wing hard-liners would allow their great project to dumb down the serfs to be compromised by reorganising the establishment in all its forms, was never a winner, left wing ideology never accepts it is flawed. The revolution and return to serfdom is all that they care about, other than ensuring their own kids get well educated. After all, everyone is equal but party apparatchiks are more equal than others.

Dear World Tonight

I’m disappointed at your focus on questioning the sentences being handed out to those convicted of crimes in relation to last week’s riots. Some pressure groups are saying the sentences are “too harsh”, and “inconsistent”.

In all my years of listening to the BBC I cannot recall a single item questioning the leniency of sentences handed down, which most British people see and complain about every day. Inconsistency is regularly seen in cases across this land, but you never see fit to comment on this fact.

For some reason, the issue of sentencing inconsistency and inappropriate sentencing seems to have eluded your producers until now, when the complaints are that sentences are “too harsh” rather than “too lenient.”

Please try to refrain from allowing your own prejudices to colour the choice of items you decide to focus on.

Best wishes

#39 billip1

Riot sentences-- (reported by BBC)

Anderson Fernandes, 22, was warned by a judge at Manchester Magistrates' Court he may face jail for stealing two scoops of ice cream. He will be sentenced next week after admitting burglary.

Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, was jailed for six months for burglary. He took a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket

Mother-of-two Ursula Nevin, from Manchester, was jailed for five months for receiving a pair of shorts given to her after they had been looted from a city centre store.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14559294

-- By commenting on the sentencing the PM appears to be interfering before all are sentenced -- thus attempting to prevent ´politically free´ sentencing.

With the American, European and Business blogs prematurely closed --

What the heck is the BBC up to ?

-- It is surely only honorable ( also gone ?) --to inform !

The Bishop of Manchester was very correct.

#39 Billip 1

--- Reading British blog contributions on the riots is rather frightening.

Many rightly condemn ´Mob Rule´ on the streets of Britain -- but accept ´ Mob Rule´ in Court sentencing.

39. At 21:42 17th Aug 2011, billip1

The ultra liberals and left wingers are now engaging in damage limitation, after 13 years of being told to act soft magistrates can now actually follow guidance that crime must be punished. The softly softly approach has been an abject failure and has simply meant that appearing in court is often regarded as a day out, now that some magistrates are being commensurate it may be the last time a defendant sees their home for some months. Good and well done those magistrates. Unlike QOT whose response was par for course for him, the question that should be asked is just who the soft magistrates and judges are and whether they deserve to be in that position of power. The sentencing guidance is issued by the legally elected government and whilst there is an inbuilt mitigation factor, it should be followed from the mid point and not the minimum.

QOT,

I suspect you are upset that the badge of honour, an ASBO, was not used by the cases being reported, then the mob supporters could go around comparing ASBO's and laughing at justice.

Remind me QOT, who was it that introduced that feared sentence, as well as loads of impotent plastic policement (PCSO's), and now criticise cuts in police administration numbers who work on all the red tape bureaucracy they introduced?

#44 Buzet23

-- With the ´right to search´ every ´Tom, Dick and Harry´, CCTV following every citizen´s steps and now ´Mob Rule´ political sentencing --- agreeing or arguing with the Devil on the way to the grave --is no way for any society to behave !

45. At 09:32 18th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

The 'right to search' exists in all EU countries so big deal, people are often controlled here in Belgium and must show an identity card which is something not required in the UK. CCTV was installed exponentially by your favourite left wing as a preclude for the establishment of a Socialist police state, after all only Russia has more CCTV's I believe. As for your 'mob rule' political sentencing just what are you beefing about if for once sentences conform to the legal guidance, are you saying that ignoring ultra liberal political correctness is to be regretted, what a joke.

#46 Buzet23

-- I am saying --what I said -- no more no less !

-- political interference in a ´claimed´ independent legal system --is your problem --you support it !

47. At 12:37 18th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

Laws are made by the legally elected government and they also set guidance as to what sentences are appropriate. The Independence of the judiciary is not at issue here as they, maybe for the first time in some cases, have been following the guidance. The politicians are not interfering with the individual cases, they are not saying all are guilty, they are simply saying the punishment must now fit the crime, and that the old soft approach of Labour is over.

I support an independent judiciary but I also support appropriate punishment and decry much of the mitigation pleas that are used by defence lawyers, theft is theft whether you come from a poor or rich background and should be punished by more than a warning, community service and fine.

During my students 'holidays', all those years ago, I worked at a local factory on the night shift.

Got chatting to a co-worker, who told me he'd just been let out of jail. I inquired as to what his crime was and he told me that he'd failed to keep up the maintenance payments to his ex-wife and family so had been put inside for a couple of months.

Nevermind, I said, at least you are out now and can put it behind you.

Not quite, he said, I have not only got to catch up on the the missing maintenance payments but also those accumulated whilst I was in prison and if I do not, they will put me back inside again.

Seems to me that in this respect, our society in England has moved 180% in the opposite direction from those tough old days.

Now blogs are being `Closed for Comments´ ---Before they open ?

-- looks like we are being forced to use ´Facebook and Twitter´?

--I am getting tired of reading the discussions --and then being told to ´keep quiet´!

QOT

Which blogs are doing this as this one still seems to be reasonable?

Buzet23

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14579710

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14565245

--and Hewitt closed after 9 hours ! --- only for pensioners ?

--Sunday was also bad.

QOT

Hewitt seems to disappear regularly and mods are severe, as for the others I will look and see.

The three primary actors in a crime are, the criminals, 'the law' and the victims.

Who has power?

The criminals, as instigators of crime at a time and place of their choosing, certainly have power.

The 'law' is mandated to have power in our society and jealously guards that power as vested in the Police, and other practitioners, such as magistrates, judges et al.

Which leaves the victims of crime and so what power do they have?

A recent development has been the 'victim impact statement', which is some sort of power but that is totally handed off to a legal official, who may or may not let it influence their judgement.

Seems to me that the victims of crime in England need to be given more power in deciding the tariff of criminals.

For example, a judge might set a minimum tariff of four years in jail for man-slaughter, but the victims widow, children and parents may decide that they want the criminal to serve a longer term and should be granted that power.

I do not think that is too radical, in the USA, for example, an infamous killer is still in jail some 31 years after his crime because every time his parole comes up, the victms wife and son request that he continues to serve time.

Justice is thus served.

52. At 21:23 18th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

It gives me the impression that in the new format they are only making a token effort to invite comments and in some cases no effort whatsoever. Since it is seen on multiple blogs it begs the question as to whether this is management policy.

Frustrating, but then maybe they have just realised that by creating a tweet style comment system they have attracted the lowest form of poster as we see in other comment style systems like Yahoo news items.

54. At 00:30 19th Aug 2011, JohnConstable

I agree with your comments but have only one reservation about the victim power and that is not in giving victims the real power to influence sentencing, but in ensuring their safety when they do. It has been clear from the last events that the gang culture is ripe, and there is a real risk in my opinion that a victim could be attacked by other members as retribution. I suspect that a victim would need protection and one way would be to ensure that anyone attacking a victim receives a very long custodial sentence, with no parole possible.

#54 John Constable

Considering the high prison population in America and the differences from state to state --I find it difficult to totally accept that ´vengeance´ on the part of the victims should be given a maximum say in the sentencing or parole (after 31 years !).

That the victims views should be considered -- I agree with. However I do think that Sharia Law offers SOME possibilities of ´closure´(by agreement) -- rather than by allowing ´vengeance´ to control our supposed ´Christian ´ethics.

Buzet23

Here is an informative BBC business program about German industry. The companies concerned are privately owned -- however (in my view) are representative of the ´Mittelstand´ backbone of Germany.

--No propaganda is intended --click on ´German manufacturing´ --- listen now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p002vsxs

58. At 16:42 19th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

It seems to be not possible as I am in Belgium and when I tried there was no response.

As to your other missive about sharia law I have to ask whether you are joking, after all not one imam has been elected democratically and all of us could become such a person by playing the game. The last sort of political(religious) interference I would want is that religious ideologues can influence anything.

#59 Buzet23

You probably need BBC iPlayer ? I had no problems with my Mac.

Try this ! (probably for others ? )

https://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/bizdaily

UK residence is not required for the World service programs.

#59 Buzet23

"As to your other missive about sharia law--"

Another misunderstanding !

The victim and perpetrator try to reach an agreement --especially after the guilty party has served enough time (set by a judge) as punishment --nothing to do with Imams !

--just a way to prevent ´vengeance´--as with the case mentioned by John Constable --- which I feel should not be permitted in any society -- where ´pride´ is taken in ´The Rule of Law´ .

60. At 21:11 19th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

That worked ok, as you know the iplayer only works in UK. Two things stood out apart from the well know manufacturing expertise and quality, firstly apprenticeships are everywhere and secondly people expect to follow what is advised for them.

The availability of decent and useful apprenticeships is in direct contrast to the raft of useless a-levels taken in the UK, where media studies is pushed as a core study by academics. It strikes me that the ultra liberal academic establishment we see in the US and UK have not been allowed the same power in Germany and that industry still governs what is taught in schools, not left wing politically correct academics.

The aspect about people expecting to follow was mentioned by one of those being interviewed and confirms my own view from when I worked in Germany, and which I have mentioned on the blogs before. I was told when I first arrived that ninety odd percent follow orders and the rest give them, in meetings I found it odd that the manager gave his opinion, everyone nodded and called it a consensus decision even though there had been no discussion or evaluation. At the beginning they were surprised when I questioned these 'decisions' and suggested better alternatives as it was not their habit. Several old decisions I got changed. but then they were employing me as a software 'expert' so the manager listened. My point though is that the US and UK people are not so ready to follow what is being said to them as they are more independent and unfortunately idealistic, German's tend to be more down to earth, vis a vis apprenticeships rather than media studies.

61. At 21:29 19th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

The understanding about Sharia law is that it can be in effect a family court where an imam or elders will be present, they will assist two parties in dispute, the Jewish equivalent also works like that I've read. What you've said there seems to be suggesting that Sharia law can work with the legal framework of a country after someone has been sentenced by a court. This is a different approach to what is normally said by imams that Sharia law is god's law and above the legal framework of the country.

Your comment is for me an attempt to circumvent the legal system of the UK by substituting another body that has no legal powers to enforce any decision. If a sharia court gets two parties to agree a recompense and a party reneges what will happen, the religious police come knocking and beat up the party or chop a few digits off. I think you can see my point here as such a mechanism would truly be akin to allowing extremeism and there would be little independence if religion is involved.

#62 Buzet23

The iPlayer (radio) works on macs globally for World Service programs.

Every German worker can take his ´complaint´ for a court decision. If they are in a union --then the union will decide if they will pay the lawyer and court expenses or not.

In Germany I worked in research (university) and if you knew what you were talking about --every Professor was ´all ears´. I also swept floors -- and I was expected to sweep them --- with little discussion.

As kane (where is he ?) has stated -- there are few countries that can be considered more ´Socialistic´ than Germany --with all its perks and the strive for ´job security´ for its citizens, by the society and government. If German history is considered -- they have hardly been a society of ONLY ´order takers´ -- however it seems they have found a societal ´middle ground´--unlike the US or Britain. They have had the (unpleasant) advantage of having their societal structure upturned with (two world) wars and rebellions -- enabling them to construct a different society -- to avoid such repetitions. This ´luxury´has occurred neither in Britain or the US -- and both are condemned -- to only more of the same.

America is condemned by its 200 year Constitution and Britain by its Feudalistic structure --to forever have social strife and unfair inequality.

--- and Germany (it seems) has a system that at least for the present -- works !

64. At 18:39 20th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

I'm not quite sure of your point about taking a complaint to a court as that happens in both the UK and Belgium, Employment Tribunal and works tribunal respectively. As with Germany the union can get involved as can ACAS so I don't really see where Germany is different in this matter.

Of course the German peoples are not just a nation of order takers but as I say the vast majority do just follow orders, especially in the normal industrial workplace. I was in an IT department as a consultant in accounting systems and even then there was still a reluctance to question a decision, each nation has different characteristics and maybe the German strength is that they work very well as a team under a strong leader, whereas the Brits like to question in order to work well as a team. I won't mention the French other than to say the ego is their consistent downfall in business.

Your analysis has certain merits but what has upset the apple cart is the migration factor, even when I was there there were problems between Kurds and Turks, now there are plenty of other origins there as well, all with different mentalities. Germany in all honesty relies on the mentality of its workforce to carry on as is, if the mentality changes and quality drops they lose their advantage as they are high priced. They have also relied on protectionism (nationalism) to stop industries moving out and that is difficult to maintain with the EU, the businesses may be less inclined to outsource but can that be legally maintained. The radio program touched on this matter in a certain respect as one guy said the UK businesses are less inclined to invest locally which means they are more inclined to use global sourcing to the detriment of the UK.

QOT,

kane seems to be following football now on Steve Wilson's blog (still an old format, yippee), chryses has disappeared regrettably.

#63 Buzet23

The discussion by both yourself and John Constable was directed--- that the perpetrators of crimes should be more at the mercy of the victims wishes (if I properly understood your discussion).

I can hardly be accused of ---“ an attempt to circumvent the legal system of the UK by substituting another body that has no legal powers to enforce any decision"

-- When you accuse me of exactly what you suggest --

#56 Buzet23

"I agree with your comments but have only one reservation about the victim power and that is not in giving victims the real power to influence sentencing, but in ensuring their safety when they do."

I in no way suggested that Sharia Law should be a part of the British legal system -- think more of the ´Truth Commissions ´ of South Africa or Northern Ireland if the mention of Islam is not acceptable.

#65 Buzet23

-- At the time the UK was striking -- the ´Sozialmarktwirtschsft´ was working well in Germany.

You are correct - migration into Germany has changed Germany --as has the falling of the Berlin wall and the ´iron curtain´

The Kurdish- Turkish problem though lies to a great extent with Britain -- the Kurds fought with Britain against the Ottomans with the promise of an independent Kurdistan --Britain double-crossed them -- and divided the territory between other countries.

I disagree with your choice of the word ´nationalism´when it comes to Germany as it is really wrongly placed -- my experience of Britain and the USA suggests otherwise --or a misuse of the word from your side --to be exact.

Nobody is forcing German industry to stay in Germany (sources and examples -please) The managers (owners) said on the program that the quality of their products and services are reliable (and the best) --MMG massive ship propellors and Bechstein pianos. MMG said Britain did not see (or want) the opportunity and Bechstein said their product is also for future generations.

Germany is full of ´world leaders´ -- the different (Mittelstand) companies train the experts the need -- and hold on to them --they are not ´throw aways´ but an expensive and valuable company investment.

---of course there are other companies --with different ethics and morals --but those are not those the program was meaning.

68. At 22:18 20th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

It's a shame you once again turn a discussion into a hit against Britain, the Kurds/Turks problem Germany has is nothing to do with Britain as they are traditional enemies, long before Britain was in that area. How long does your blame mentality go, before the crusades? Germany invited the Kurds and Turks to come to Germany as they were cheap labour, gasterbeiters, who largely did not integrate and have continued their historical enmities. Funny enough both Holland and Belgium had similar programs at the same time, in the Belgian case a large number of Southern Sicilians came to the mining areas of Mons, Charleroi and Liege and the lack of integration is still evident these days as is evidenced by the unemployment rate there. Many still talk in Italian and retain their Italian nationality and vote in Italy, these areas are a main reason why the Flemish want to split from Wallonia BTW.

The Germans are still nationalist, that shows itself in a number of ways even though they try to say they are a changed nation since WWII. The 'if it is German it is good' mentality is everywhere, if the British say only buy British you would call that arrogance and nationalism, yet the Germans do it all the time. When I was there it was clear that any non-German company hoping to sell there had to have a manufacturing plant there, and I already said I saw at first hand how the government tried to force companies to only use German resources when the company I was with won an ECJ court case.

One factor that is a big difference between the US and UK, and Germany is the composition of the board of directors and this was on the periphery of that news report in the sense of investment. The US and UK boards are largely run by financial directors or those with a financial background, they also tend only to stay in post a few years before moving on. This means they only look for a short term return to put on their CV, before they move to 'save' the next company. I suspect German companies are still run by business people who run the production, research, development, sales of the companies and who have a long term view. I have for a couple of decades thought that it is the rise of the finance director in boardrooms that has caused the UK's plight. Their gearings, ratios etc are just for shareholders as a guide and a business should not be run by them whilst the long term future of the business is largely ignored.

Buzet 23

-sorry Buzet but your knowledge of history is lacking. That the Kurds and the Ottomans were enemies before WWl -- they (Kurdistan) were occupied -- is correct -- the rest you should read up on.

The problems between the Turks and Kurds --stem from the decisions of the Colonial powers at the time -- and Britain (during the country "re-organization") in the region broke its word --If you don´t believe me -- then ask any Kurd!

I spoke with a Kurdish taxi- driver a couple of months ago who said the Kurds in North-Iraq were now swimming in wealth (oil money) and the two ´Mafia clans´ (war lords) have peaceful co-existence.

When Turkey had its Civil War of course the problems also went to Germany -- the problems between left-right (for a fairer Turkey) and the Turkish - Kurd problem also was present. The present ´Islamic´ government of Turkey stems from this ´left-right´ civil war.

You should visit Malta or North Cyprus to see how the Brits integrate with the local population.

"If it is German it is good" -- has been explained by the radio program --why it is so.
-- I understand ´nationalism´ differently. Germany is constantly hearing from the US and UK that they should be more ´war loving´-- there is precious little ´war or military glorification´ on German media or within the population.

Please give more specifics on the company and circumstances you always mention -- so that your ´accusations´ can be further discussed !

Many of those ´Mittelstand´German companies are either family or privately owned --and therefore not on the stock- market --- few if any ´Financial Whiz-Kids´are necessary or probably desired.

I see part of the UK problem as stemming from the break-up of the Empire ( previously no business competition) and another part the social divisions. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the short term views of British and US industry is totally inadequate -- for societies and families to function properly -- social security is necessary --you cannot have Kids changing schools every couple of years because the parents are always moving to find work -- and then complain the Kids ´have no roots´within the society.

70. At 10:40 21st Aug 2011, quietoaktree

The history of Turkey and Iraq is very convoluted and I'm not going to engage in evaluations based on history books and articles and third hand stories. No book you can quote will be accurate since it will reflect the quality of data available, the quality of the author's interpretation and what he/she wants to convey. For instance, for yourself the answer will always be that it is the fault of the British.

There may be little war glorification but TV often used to have programs about the world wars, not exactly the way to forget I suspect.

I will not name the company I was with but just say it involved the printing of statements for German customers in another country because it was cheaper. The government tried to say it was illegal and they must be printed and sent within Germany, the ECJ found that to be restraint of trade and found against the government. When I left after the end of my contract the company were waiting for retribution as they suspected the government would try to get their own back, but I never heard if they did.

As for mobility in the work force I don't see families moving being a problem, the reluctance to do so is more of a cause for concern since the family is out of work and on benefits, and that has a far worse detrimental affect on children and their attitude to life. The reluctance to move has also been a reason why the North of England has suffered once large scale industry was closed because it was outdated and inefficient. Although I did not move with my contracts, that was because they were mostly short term, I had to travel a great deal which meant I often did not see much of my young children. Which is worse, a family moving but keeping together, or a family where a parent is not often there apart from weekends, my opinion is that it is the latter which is worse for the kids.

#71 Buzet23

The German TV programs ALWAYS are negative towards Germany --they DO NOT want to forget their terrible past history --unlike others.

Sorry, but the company info is inadequate to be considered -- you cannot expect me to either agree or disagree with you --where I do not know where to begin ?

For mobility, I was more thinking about the US due to their very poor social and educational systems.

Wherever I lived or travelled I have always tried to ´find out more´. While an elderly Brit was telling me about his WWll war, post war experiences he contradicted the general held view that Britain did not dismantle and take German machinery to Britain after WWll. He himself participated. He said he was flabbergasted at the automatic German machinery.

He also said that the first German products he saw to be sold in Britain after the War --were pencils -- (Faber Castell and Staedtler). which brings us back to the German ´Mittelstand´business.

The BBC ´World of Business --InBiz-- ´interviewed both companies -- with the question --´what are they doing correctly ?´

Here are 2 BBC links on the program --

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13019777

https://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/worldbiz/all (Thursday 14 April 2011)

There are no doubt some British and American companies who have similar practices --but they are insufficient in number to make any difference in the overall picture of -- "a quick Buck" or Pound.

--It may be just too late for the other ´short timers´ to change ?

quietoaktree @ 57

I mentioned a specific case in the USA as an general example, which you have chosen to label as 'vengeance' and un-Christian.

In this particular case, when the issue of parole arises, the victims wife and son have successfully petitioned for continued incarceration on the grounds of fear for their own lives, and due to the particular fixations of the killer, they have so far been successful.

Nothing to do with either vengeance or Christianity.

The dangers of of not enabling victims and their families more say over the criminals tariff are illustrated by a case I came across recently in south London where an elderly lady in her late 80's was assaulted outside her home by a young thug, who then dragged into her home where he proceeded to batter her a bit more and then steal various possessions.

The police have done their job efficiently and the perpetrator is now in custody awaiting trial. However, the victims son,who is from that patch, has told me that if the courts do not give an appropriate tariff then the criminal will be 'dealt with' and this is how justice sometimes works in South London.

It should never happen that way but if the Courts do not deliver justice, then sometimes an alternative is applied. In fact, I am surprised it does not happen more often given the leniency of the Courts on occasions.

The public broadly seem to agree, given polls taken on the sentencing of the recent rioters.

Buzet23

-- While it is difficult for me to fathom the case of ´nationalistic protectionism´ you claim for Germany -- did state ´help´ play any role ?

I know that in America, state contracts can only be fulfilled with American products and labour.

--if not --then I still don´t have a clue !

#73 John Constable

Your example is indeed disturbing and I assume you are aware of the facts. Twice being a victim of attempted robbery in India and Jamaica --while traveling -- I personally know the feeling of fear and insecurity of victims after criminal events.

However after 31 years, to prevent release only on those grounds -- does appear extreme -- especially with GPS. If the victims are worried about reprisals from friends of the sentenced -- they would have happened by now.

That British sentencing is not optimal for many Brits --is another matter (eg. Drunk driving that causes injury or death to innocents) -- but I still maintain that interference by the government or ´Mob´ is unacceptable

Your statement --

" It should never happen that way but if the Courts do not deliver justice, then sometimes an alternative is applied. In fact, I am surprised it does not happen more often given the leniency of the Courts on occasions.

The public broadly seem to agree, given polls taken on the sentencing of the recent rioters."

---suggests what ?

´Mob Rule´ in sentencing-- OR the ´Vigilantes´-- if the ´Mob´does not get its way ?

quietoaktree @ 75

To clarify, in the American case, the widow and son appear to be only concerned about the killer himself and his possible actions upon release. The killer in question is now aged 56 and it is quite possible that he will eventually be released when either the widow and son no longer object to parole or he is deemed by the Parole Board to be incapable of harming anybody else.

As this was a very high profile case which aroused strong feelings within the general public, there is also a strong possibility that if the killer was released, he might be the subject of an assassination attempt himself, which presumably the Parole Board would also have to take into account.

Regarding the issue of leniency within the Courts of England, I am suggesting that that is a very dangerous road for our society in England to travel along, possibly leading to what we might term 'privatized' justice and this is definitely one area that should not be privatized in any way.

Note though, that the doorstep stabbing to death of an establishment figure a few years ago in a wealthy part of London has led to the partial privatization of the police in some areas, insofar as these wealthy people can afford to cluster in gated communities with their own private security force.

In reality, whatever the theory, the law actually functions in different ways for the various strata of our society in England.

For example, if you are an educated person and commit a crime then you are going to dealt with far more harshly than the uneducated person would be - e.g. young Charlie Gilmour - and rightly so, in my humble opinion.

In another example, a very privileged and powerful vested interest group - namely MP's - throw a few sacrificial lambs to the Courts and the other 300 or so fiddling the expenses get off scot-free; which is obviously totally wrong but there it is.

72. At 13:35 21st Aug 2011, quietoaktree

Sorry, but the company info is inadequate to be considered -- you cannot expect me to either agree or disagree with you --where I do not know where to begin ?

What I gave is more than adequate, just look at all the ECJ cases that both Germany and France have against them, these are not imagination and look at the vast number that were proven, again not imagination, and these are from the two leaders of the EU and BTW they are the two leaders of ECJ cases. I suspect you have not encountered the protectionism of both in the past which is a shame, but the case I detailed is true.

As for German engineering being good I agree, my RAF dad said he pillaged the electric motors of shot down German bombers to put in Lanc, clever wasn't he.

73. At 13:43 21st Aug 2011, JohnConstable

Regrettably I have heard that story before and people I've known have had the right connections but I've never resorted to that. Unfortunately the ultra liberal leniency has created a culture of that for those with the right connections, which is a predictable response to lack of justice for victims. Trendy leftie lawyers and HR activists have so lost the plot that thay continue to talk always about PC topics like deprived background, and various other foolish mitigation excuses. As always, if you want rights you have responsibilities, end of story, QOT.

#76 John Constable

--- as far as I am aware, private ´security guards´ have no more rights than ordinary citizens -- to arrest or prevent crimes -- they are not policemen.

-- I see far more difficulties with private companies running prisons -- or British passport issuance by private companies. (remember ´sovereignty´ ?) -- the Chinese would willingly do it cheaper !

There are so many screwed-up court cases in America (2 days ago --the ´West Memphis 3 ´ -- that it should never be used as a standard for anything.

--- in fact does anything work properly ?

https://www.npr.org/2010/01/21/122725771/Bail-Burden-Keeps-U-S-Jails-Stuffed-With-Inmates

#77 Buzet23

--everybody is always complaining about everybody else --but that still does not help me to agree with you !

--now I have to search for something --and I don´t know what --to prove your point ?

--- you must be be joking ?

80. At 18:55 21st Aug 2011, quietoaktree

The case is amongst many in the ECJ case history, seek and thou shall find.

80. At 18:55 21st Aug 2011, quietoaktree

As an aid to seeing which countries appear most in the ECJ take a look at https://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lang=en as this is the search form for ECJ cases. Put the name of the country in the 'Names of parties' box and increase the maximum number of results to 10,000. France leads with 1049, then Germany (785), Belgium (646) and the United Kingdom only has 330. These are all cases since June 1997 by the way.

Buzet 23

--Thanks for the link, but while I was down-town shoplifting, the wife´s nose and arm had an argument with a stone step. She did not do too much step damage.

-- will attempt to play-around with your link after cementing (not the nose).

83. At 17:38 22nd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

Quite so, your wife has to be more careful about damaging steps, after all someone has paid for them by their taxes. Hopefully the steps are satisfactorily repaired, as to the wife it will depend on whether you're a Muslim or not, for me I would be very concerned about her but then I'm not Muslim.

As to shoplifting, well, I won't comment.

Buzet 23

--Have played around a little with the link -- really interesting --

https://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lang=en&newform=newform&alljur=alljur&jurcdj=jurcdj&jurtpi=jurtpi&jurtfp=jurtfp&alldocrec=alldocrec&docj=docj&docor=docor&docdecision=docdecision&docop=docop&docppoag=docppoag&docav=docav&docsom=docsom&docinf=docinf&alldocnorec=alldocnorec&docnoj=docnoj&docnoor=docnoor&radtypeord=on&typeord=ALL&docnodecision=docnodecision&allcommjo=allcommjo&affint=affint&affclose=affclose&numaff=&ddatefs=&mdatefs=&ydatefs=&ddatefe=&mdatefe=&ydatefe=&nomusuel=united+kingdom&domaine=&mots=&resmax=100&Submit=Submit

--- concerning UK water -- unfit for human consumption.

--but not yet good enough for your argument --
----------------------------------------------------------------
THE COURT (Fifth Chamber)

hereby:

1. Declares that, by accepting undertakings from water companies for the purpose of ensuring that water complies with the requirements of Council Directive 80/778/EEC of 15 July 1980 relating to the quality of water intended for human consumption, without the conditions governing the acceptance of such undertakings being specified in the Water Industry Act 1991, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has failed to fulfil its obligations under the EC Treaty and under that directive;



2. Dismisses the remainder of the application;


3. Orders the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to pay the costs.

Buzet23

-- The link clearly shows that the ECJ is necessary --and that governments will allow its industries to lower the agreed standards. As I have previously mentioned, Britain´s national propaganda for ´Sovereignty´ --- is to maintain (also) the social ´status quo´ --- the fear Britain (Her Majesties Government) has-- is that the ´Feudal´ structure may eventually be successfully challenged at the ECJ.

86. At 21:52 22nd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

I am firstly not surprised by you ignoring the cases about Germany and France, and secondly you trying to find a case amongst the 330 that you can use in some way against the UK. You might note that the case you quoted was not that the water fails the test but that the 1991 act does not mention the EU's directive. The possibility that the UK act has a better specification obviously escaped you. Your conclusion in #86 is therefore empty as usual, especially since if there is a feudal structure it is the EU that is trying to impose it. You really need to look up the large number of EU countries that still do have a feudal type scenario as DemocracyThreat (I think it was he) once corrected you on. The EU is simply an extension of the traditional old European aristocracy and I seem to recall DT mentioning an aristo who is a current German minister.

85. At 21:20 22nd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

You also failed to mention that if a seach is made of the water directive 80/778/EEC it produces 33 results, only one is from the UK and that is the one you mentioned from 1997. There are several from Spain, Portugal, (especially) France, Ireland, Luxembourg and Italy. In fact France as close as 2008 was accused and found guilty of not supplying water that was fit for purpose which probably explains why most in France and Belgium drink bottled water. Why other countries don't figure in the cases is a bit suspicious as I can't believe all the Eastern European ex-communist countries can be perfect in their water supply. You might also like to be aware that several water companies in the UK are French owned.

Buzet23

--considering that the UK has attempted (is attempting) to continually press for exemptions from EU supervision --the 330 citations is not surprising. My contribution on water quality, only happened by chance -- after following your instructions on how to use the site.

My remark--

"-- The link clearly shows that the ECJ is necessary --and that governments will allow its industries to lower the agreed standards."

--already generally covers you objections and your inevitable ´others are also doing it´-- which add nothing to the discussion.

I do not have sufficient time just now to expand on the topic just now --will try to later.

This will give you enough time to consider WHY both Her Majesties´ Government AND the Water Companies -- went into a court case they BOTH knew -- they would loose -- and why the EU rules were ignored to force a defeat before the ECJ -- by passing a UK law in contradiction of --

"Council Directive 80/778/EEC of 15 July 1980 relating to the quality of water intended for human consumption."

-- think ´criminally´--is my hint to you.

-- because it looks as if it is !

89. At 17:09 23rd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

My hint to you is why only Spain, Portugal, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, Italy and the UK (1) showed water quality cases, surely you are not so foolish as to think the other 20 countries in the EU are perfect. This result strikes of abject corruption at the highest level, the new entrants have evidently been excused obedience, and I find it hard to believe the old DDR is perfect, oops have I hit a raw nerve.

If the cases showing are correct it shows that there is not a need for the ECJ or rather more importantly, not a need for the EU, this shows rampant corruption and political manipulation. If you honestly think that the ECJ has exposed anything other than EU corruption then I am amazed, and I feel that bearing in mind how the UK tends to observe laws it is meritable that only 330 cases have been found even though the corrupt EU try to perpetually pick fault with the UK.
I wonder how many cases against Germany and France have been conveniently sidetracked, any ideas?

Official cases, France 1049, Germany 785, how many not progressed by a nod and a wink?

#90 Buzet23#

--Sorry, your logic and argumentation -- add nothing to your initial accusations.

I attempted to assist you -- but have obviously failed.

--Try to explain the #89 discrepancies --or forget it !

--there is no use in us BOTH wasting the time of the other !

91. At 19:05 23rd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

I could not agree more, you seem to be not wanting to investigate anything that goes against your opinion, the link I gave you showed conclusively that not only do non-UK countries appear most in the ECJ but that some are suspiciously absent. I have attempted to guide as to that but have failed it seems. You talk about #89 discrepancies yet you have singularly ignored that 20 countries have no 80/778/EEC cases and that six had 32 of the 33, and the UK only 1. You also failed to compare the UK's one case to what was actually the problem, they did not mention the criteria of 80/778/EEC in their legislation. That the UK legislation might be more strict was ignored, or that the EU pollutant list may be the ridiculous output of an EU pen pushing fonctionaire was ignored. You seem to have the opinion that because some EU over paid expert has said 'X' is bad, it is, that their grants may depend on another product being permitted is, well, forgotten.

Many years back I was told by an expert from the Belgian water company that the purity depended on how deep the well was, shallow wells got the chemicals that farming used, but then that is not to be spoken about is it.

Buzet23

-- one Chryses is enough !

93. At 21:13 23rd Aug 2011, quietoaktree

Let's look back a bit, I recounted that Germany receives a great deal of help from 'nationalistic protectionism' and mentioned an ECJ case about Germany objecting to the printing of customer statements outside Germany. You asked for more proof so I pointed you at ECJ case law that clearly shows Germany is the second worse EU state for contravening EU rules with twice as many cases as the UK.

Your only response has been to look blinkered at the UK and ignore the actions of Germany and France, who claim to be the leaders and powerhouse of the EU, and say the ECJ cases do not show that Germany uses protectionism to guard its home industries, and nationalism to ensure the population 'buy German'.

My responses to you are not 'mind games' or 'playing with words' but ECJ case law that are facts and proof. By all logic one would have thought Germany and France should have had the least number of cases, being so strong in creating an EU in the image they want, but as I've proved the opposite is true. They are both duplicitous and disingenuous in that they say one thing and serve their own National interests behind our backs.

Buzet23 #94

What is this nonsense ?

You found a link where you can insert the name of the company involved that (you claim) will prove (or disprove) your argument ( one case!) --and let us read the judgement -- this you refuse to do !

-- then you throw in statements -- which either you expect me to disprove --or everyone to accept without questioning ?

You add (your own) conclusions as to the number of ECJ court cases -- knowing quite well that Britain ops out as much as possible from EU regulations.

--- then claim German Nationalism forces Germans to buy German --again with NO evidence.

That your link was good --is above question -- but not for the reason you intended.

-- Get a grip !

95. At 10:32 24th Aug 2011, quietoaktree

You are squirming QOT, the one case I mentioned is not to prove or disprove my assertion, it is simply one example and as you know that is all I have ever said, unfortunately the case I know personally of was in 1996 and is not on that link, and the link that the site has for earlier cases seems not to work. However the case was real and it typified the way Germany has tried to force companies to keep everything within Germany against EU rules.

-- then you throw in statements -- which either you expect me to disprove --or everyone to accept without questioning ?

You add (your own) conclusions as to the number of ECJ court cases -- knowing quite well that Britain ops out as much as possible from EU regulations.

I have not 'thrown' in statements about the case law history, I have thrown in provable facts that you and anyone else can verify. Your feeble attempt to squirm out of this is to say the massive imbalance in ECJ court cases of France and Germany against the UK is because of UK opt outs. Now that is nonsense, lets see you prove it.

--- then claim German Nationalism forces Germans to buy German --again with NO evidence.

German nationalism does not 'force', it is simply that most Germans are very proud of being German and very proud of German products, now if that is not nationalism then what is.

Buzet23

--your knowledge of Germany is extremely limited.

-- don´t try for work in research if you are unprepared to answer any questions.

"--to say the massive imbalance in ECJ court cases of France and Germany against the UK is because of UK opt outs. Now that is nonsense, lets see you prove it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union

-- You should at least be able to substantiate your prejudices -- instead of giving me (and others) the work in exposing them !

Buzet23

-- Here I am again helping you -- subtract the ECJ law cases pertaining to the 5 areas of British opt-outs from both Germany´s and France´s number -- and then decide if you want cases by Germany and France and Britain Vs. the EU or the EU Vs. against all three in your list --- then we can discuss further !

Buzet 23

--UK 4 opt-outs --mistyped.

QOT

Four opt outs, your own link says that, Schengen, the Euro and the other two have no longer a reality, are you truly being serious. It seems to be your knowledge of the EU and Germany that is limited, maybe you have been too long in the US.

Now for once prove your allegations, in all the years you have been here that has never happened, now is your chance.