Lions taking shape with lessons to learn

Byrne
Bowe
BOD
Roberts
Fitzgerald / Monye
Jones
Phillips
Jenkins
Mears
Jones / Murray
AWJ
POC
Croft
Wallace
Heaslip


Would like to see martyn williams and ryan jones have a good game at the weekend. Williams is a class act but i'm not sure i would want to go into the first test with a new back row partnership.

That's a bit harsh on O'Gara, I think:

- his two cross kicks were smart, one knocked on by Williams and the other into good space and putting pressure on by winning a Lions 5m lineout

- one knock through was inches from a Lee Byrne try (and kicked when playing advantage), the other won a penalty and should maybe have resulted in a yellow card

- also, with the amount he kicked, I'd say it's quite possible the team was practising the tactic; it might prove a useful a way to avoid continuous breakdowns, where the Lions have conceded costly turnovers

- he did put one pass forward when there was a good chance and the timing was off for another, but he played on the gain-line and was involved in plenty of good back play.

Throw in a couple of touch-line conversions in swirling wind, and it wasn't perfect, but it was good. It's easy to find a couple of inaccuracies in a guy's play and say he was woeful, but I think it's a bit lazy.

Good blog. 2 matches to the test, personally don't think williams will play, shame but others seem to be ahead of him.
Shame they aren't on BBC!!!

Gethin Jenkins absolutely stuffed du Plessis in the first 2 scrums after that the South african slipped his binding every scrum. I thought Jenkins showed huge discipline not to react to such poor scrummageing technique and even poorer refereeing.

Another dissapointing crowd, are all the boks supporters in London?

think s jones has 10 rog didnt do enuf i tink!! heaslip and philips have 8 and 9 surely,feel sorry for kearney, i like byrne but dey hav not been on equal footin to make a case for inclusion,also mears wli prob take 2 now

that position on the wing is still wide open. s williams has probably played himself out of contention although he probably had his best game tonight. on the otherhand fitzgerald didn't really do enough to play himself in although excellent work supporting bod for his try. i agree with tom above bryne now has to be nailed on at 15 unless kearney has a stormer man of the match performance on saturday. mears had a good game and would consider himself unlucky not to be starting. jenkins should also probably could himself as good for the no. 1 jersey, and heaslip looks good for the no. 8 and he and phillips seemed to function well. lets cross everything we own and begin to pray for jamie roberts cos if he's out i fear for our chances against the boks. it would be a real shame to have 3 influential people ruled out inside 2 days, 2 of whom could be considered as potential starters. key for me over the last 2 games is that we've had 2 incredible referees. if either of them are refereeing in either of the 3 tests i'd yet again, fear for our chances.

Hmmm. Interesting game tonight. I thought before the game that Sheridan would be in with a shout in the front row, and I think Jenkins may find himself under pressure with the number of penalties he coughed up. Sheridan's experience will stand to him too. So no changes in the front row. Or second row, for that matter. POC was a mountain, and AWJ is still the next best. Hines has been on my mind a little, but he won't make it. Sheridan, Hines and O'Callaghan will start Wednesday.

Ferris is obviously gone, and Croft must therefore start. Any chance of playing Williams and Wallace together? Williams is good on the ground, but Croft is a more classical blind side.

Kearney will start at 15 on Wednesday, but may switch to wing if Bowe comes on (and he'll slot into fullback) or Jones (at fullback).

1 Sheridan
2 Mears (great game, erased selection doubts)
3 Vickery (Murray could push him on Wednesday)
4 Wyn-Jones (Hines?)
5 O'Connell
6 Croft (change from Ferris)
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip
9 Phillips
10 Jones (ROG will replace him to close the game out 20 or 25 out)
11 Kearney (Unless Monye does something spectacular)
12 Roberts (D'Arcy if Roberts injured)
13 O'Driscoll (Tour doomed if he gets injured)
14 Bowe
15 Byrne

That's two games out of four now where the refereeing of the scrum has been dreadful. No wonder Jenkins was out to kill in the second half. Kaplan penalised him just about every time the front rows went down in the first half - once on the first collapse from the opposite side of the scrum without even coming round to take a look - despite the suspicious absence of shirt on du Plessis' back in every scrum. Second half, Kaplan decided he would watch du Plessis, and gave, I think, four free kicks (not penalties, note) in a row against him. Mate, that's what the card is for....

I did put spaces after my full stops. See if this one works...

WillyGilly1990, I agree on the refs, though I understand that the non-tests are being refereed by South Africans, while the tests will be refereed by refs from the international panel.

The back line is now picked,

15) Byrne
14) Tommy
13) God
12) Roberts
11) Fitzy
10) Jonesy
9)Philips

Gatland and Geech have major selection problems now in the pack only Jenkins, Mears, O'Connell and Heaslip are guarantees. The backrow is heavily unbalanced now with the loss of Ferris, Croft was worringly anonymous today and Wallace is not protecting the ball at the breakdown. Hopefully Jones and Williams have 'stormers' at the weekend (get it).

Am I being biased or was that THE worst refereeing performance I have seen in living memory?
I have heard of an Australian referee in the 80's when either Wales or the Lions were on tour and he refereed in Queensland socks in a game involving queensland and when one of the players from here asked him who's ball it was he replied "it's our ball"!!!
Anyhow, that's provincial old days stuff but to get this from a modern referee was appauling.
I saw the total dominace of the scrum wiped away by the simple fact that if ever the Lions had even the slightest push on the Sharks simply collapsed the scrum. It happened maybe 14 times before Kaplan even started to think about pinging them. The first time it collapsed on the Sharks put in he pinged Jenkins who was being hauled down all game. Totally one eyed.
The Sharks also lay all over the ball on the deck and handeled on the floor and this happened all game and the moment a Lions player thought "ok, let's push it even 50% of what they are doing" he got pinged (POC).
They were over the top at the ruck every single time, no effort to stay on their feet at all. Then when O'Gara kicked through in the bottom right hand corner in the second half he inexplicably blew the whistle and came back even though the lions had committed no offence and a split ball could have been pounced on for a try.
He then bins Vickery for slowing the ball down even though it was a first offence for the entire team let alone him when Phillipns probably has broken hands from trying to fight for the ball all night.
He then misses "that trip" on Shane Williams, linesman has to alert him but then suddenly he knows what he's talking about as he's saying "shoulder was it?" trying to pre-empt his viewpoint "shoulder was it?" "No Mr Kaplan, it was a blatant trip, the worst crime in rugby", "oh ok, I guess I have to give him a yellow or they might take my badge.
Totally awful ref, the worst I have ever seen. There's making a game of it and there's what I saw tonight and it was terrible.The Lions really need to chirp more from the Captain, George Gregan, M Jonhson would have been asking about the front row collapsing as that was just ridiculous. I'm suprised Gethin Jenkins' head didn't explode!!

Anyhow:
Roberts Awesome
Byrne Awesome
Phillips Awesome
Heaslip Awesome
Wallace Awesome
Mears Awesome

O'Gara ordinary, kicked too much out of hand and kept passing to "invisible Jack" who plays a little behind the backs and sometimes off the pitch especially when passing from the left hand.

POC ordinary
Bod good, not as fast as he used to be!!!

yea eh just checked who's going to be officiating those 3 test matches bryce lawerence, Christophe Berdos and stuart dickinson. the 1st two are pretty reasonable there though berdos was referee at the ireland scotland game just past and made some tough decisions. its the dickinson appointment that interests me. die hard (english) rugby fans will remember this guy as the television match official from the 2007 world cup final. thats right guys the man who ruled cueto's foot was out of bounds (it was anyhow...) all 3 of them have wikipedia entries is that a good thing?

I still fear with the back row combinations. Heaslip is the only no 8 weve got .wallace played well. but croft still doesn't do enough at the breakdown. Playing powell and worsely (both hangers out), in the same back row is a terrible decision- a nightmare. any decent rugby brain(which Mcgeechan and especially Gatland are) would realise this- worsely is good defensively, but does nothing at the breakdown. Powell hangs out and waits for the ball to do his supposedly barnstorming runs. very predictable, plus he looses the ball in contact. williams and croft are very good when you have a front 5 in complete command- we haven't yet really had,(apart from 1 game), plus weve got to deal with awful refereeing decisions at the break down, especially last 2 games. For the forthcoming tests, we have to have the back row right - I would have brought strokosch (scotland 6,) and englands Armitage on tour, they are both hard , fast players who are excellent at the break down- thats what you need in s. africa, especially with refs how they are. Send worseley and powell home, r. jones wont do a lot either. Jenkins is immense, and shame on you people who say that sheridan should start. hes an excellent scrummager, but does nothing around the park. Mears is in. vickery most probably. jones and o'connell(he will get better). back row. phillips and jones. roberts and o'd. bowe and umonga and byrne.good lucklads , and lets hope we get a ref who can ref the scrum and breakdown.

If you follow the BBCs links, according to The Scotsman:

THE British and Irish Lions continued their unbeaten march through South Africa by sinking the Sharks in impressive fashion at ABSA Stadium.

Centres Brian O'Driscoll and Jamie Roberts again proved a solid midfield partnership, while Mears removed any doubt about his status as the Lions' premier hooker.

There were also impressive contributions from prop Adam Jones and O'Gara, which is exactly what Lions head coach Ian McGeechan wants competition for places before he finalises his Test line-up.

And the Australian Sportal.com.au site seems to agree, almost word for word:

The The British and Irish Lions continued their unbeaten march through South Africa by sinking the Sharks 39-3 in impressive fashion at ABSA Stadium.

Centres Brian O'Driscoll and Jamie Roberts again proved a solid midfield partnership, while Mears removed any doubt about his status as the Lions' premier hooker.

There were also impressive contributions from prop Adam Jones and O'Gara, which is exactly what Lions head coach Ian McGeechan wants - competition for places - before he finalises his Test line-up.

Why give links to two different sites with identical reports: youd expect better from the BBC.

takealeek

"I thought Jenkins showed huge discipline not to react to such poor scrummageing technique and even poorer refereeing."

Yes!!!!!
I was flabberghasted by the whole thing!!!!!
Kaplan gets the most biased refereeing performance award of any sport I have ever seen, imagine the match was close!!???
Maybe he has been promised a box at the Sharks stadium when he retires with a couple of Krugerrands under the seat?

Seriously, lads, OK, the referee wasn't great, but we shouldn't be talking about the referee. If he was the difference then we should all go home. He may have erred in favour of the underdogs once or twice, but I can't remember a decision that he made that was actually wrong. Maybe I'll be corrected on that - just interpretation issues. And the Lions need to play to that as much as they have to play to the Boks. Could be the best thing to have come out of the evening - the experience of playing under a ref who interpreted the rules a little differently.

My thoughs exactly, ianbiara - should be on the beeb. ROG kicked away possesion too easily and forwards are guilty of being too slow getting to the breakdown. Easy meat for the Boks if this continues.

On the plus side, Mears looked impressive in open play, threw accurately and has done enough to secure test spot. My test XV:

15 Byrne
14 Bowe - outstanding for Ospreys and Ireland and cotinued good form on tour
13 BOD
12 Roberts
11 Kearney
10 Jones
9 Phillips

8 Heaslip - but very little competition
7 Wallace - simply due to having played more than Williams on tour
6 Croft - shame about Ferris who had looked peerless up until injury
5 O'Connell - but has to show better form and leadership
4 AWJ
3 Murray
2 Mears
1 Jenkins - has been outstanding European prop over the season

Byrne has probably cemented his test jersey after 3 solid performances but smacks a little of welsh bias to only give rob kearney the one outing so far to display his wares.

Same might be said of the limitless opportunities given to Shane Williams to find some form. I hope this particular exercise is finished now- he was brilliant 12mths ago but not for 1mth since. Wings would be Bowe and Fitz if I had the pick.

Roberts-O'Driscoll looks a certainty with Flutey unlucky not to have the same opportunities as Roberts due to his injury. I think D'Arcy should have been on the plane from the get-go and provides reassuring cover.

Jones and O'Gara have been of similiar standard for years with O'Gara probably the more accomplished of the two and if it all came down to one kick or play at the end, I'd want O'Gara there. That been said, I would have Jones starting at 10 for these tests as he will most probably have his national colleagues, Phillips and Roberts either side of him.

Phillips had a good day. Gatland was right in saying that he needs to play with his head up a little more. But he scores tries like today, maybe let him at it. He could be a little quicker with his distribution though. Seemed to take an age at times but the breakdown are was a little messy to be fair. O'Leary might have pushed him if fit.

Heaslip is far and away the best eight we have. Wallace and Williams are both top class operators and I'm glad it's not my decision as to who starts. Wallace if I had to pick one, no Williams, no sorry! I was so disappointed with Croft tonight. Hasn't lived up to one bit of his Sky Sports, Stephen Jones billing. I'm surprised more has not been said of his non-appearance tonight. Aside from showing nice hands in the lead up to the Fitz try, he contributed nothing. No yards made, no tackle count,no turnovers, no carries to speak of and simply no aggression in any facet of his game, especially at ruck tme. Losing Ferris to injury may turn out to be the biggest and most damaging lose of the tour to date.
POC is guaranteed his place and is our best second row. Thought AWJ had a nightmare tonight, losing the ball in contact on three occasions, looked dodgy under the restart- missing one completely, not assured in the lineout- missing here too only for POC to rescue and making little impact aside from a good defensive display of 10 tackles made for 1 missed. The number 4 shirt is very much still up for grabs.

Front row did well I thought. Jenkins unlucky to be at the mercy of the ridiculous Kaplan. He(Jenkins, not Kaplan!)and Mears were excellent around the park.

Worst refereeing display i have ever seen in my life, but you might aswell accept that all decsions on a tour such as this will be 6 to 4 against. Team played well with o gara being good without being great. Forwards won lineout hands down and were uncontested against because of this for the last 60 mins.Scrum is a powerful device but both cheetahs and sharks have fouled when going back repeatedly without penalty.? any point in targeting this in training if referees have no interest/ idea at scrum time. quick heel and out is favoured by the IRB and one could maybe write a thesis on the decline of the fat arse( of which I may be one).Breakdown was lottery with indecision and confusion and no reproducibilty from the referees in how they call it ( both barnes and kaplan). back line moved well and looked really dangerous when given go forward ball ( back three to counter more.....yeah I know byrne is a great player but maybe to link collecively with others better left and right). O connell was superb........anyone who thinks otherwise must have been watching a differant match to me. ( carried x 100, tackle count huge, overturned better than the 6 or 7, caught all lineouts and restarts and linked like a backrow) WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT.What more do you want????
With the breakdown as it is ...wallace may be shaded out by the great ruck master willaims( down and dirty it is) Quinlan we really could have used you!!!!!!

TEAM. byrne monye/fitzgerald bowe o dris roberts jones phillips murray mears( find of tournament so far) jones o connell a W jones croft heaslip wallace. with o gara to play some part 2/3 tests and martyn willaims similarly.

It is inconcevable that Sheridan will start ahead of Jenkins. If he does, it certainly won't be on the grounds of his being experienced! Jenkins has been around long enough and been inbvolved in some huge games. Indeed, in probably the biggest game of his life it was his charge down of ROG and subsequently try that had an enormous impact on the game. Sheridan simply does not do enough. He's a good player, but Jenkins is really at the top of the list in Europe, if not the world.

Jenkins - not just the outstanding prop but the outstanding forward in northern hemisphere rugby this season. How people keep suggesting Sheridan is played ahead of him I just don't understand.

petergohayes. meant jenkins not jones

Jenkins was robbed of having Du Plessis for dinner today, disgraceful refereeing of the scrum. Of the forwards, Jenkins, Heaslip, Mears, Wyn Jones, and possibly Wallace look nailed on for test spots. In the backs, it has to be Philips, Jones, Bowe, Roberts (pray that shoulder is alright), O'Driscoll, and Byrne, I still think its too close to call for the other wingers; Monye had an armchair ride when he played well and still made some errors, Fitzgerald played well but received a lot more opportunity than Williams I think, so still up for grabs.

Test team? (as of this afternoon)

1 Jenkins
2 Mears
3 Jones
4 Wyn Jones
5 O'Connell/Hines (O'Connell hasnt done enough for me to deserve to start tbh, his tactics in the first half were shocking re: penalties as well)
6 Wallace
7 Williams (harsh on Croft possibly, but this provides better balance and Croft has gone missing when the going got tough)
8 Heaslip
9 Philips
10 Jones (I was SO frustrated watching O'Gara kick away half the possession the lions got today, and he doesnt run the backline as well)
11 Fitzgerald/Williams/Monye (in that order, but not much between them; I still think Williams would be the best bet however)
12 Roberts
13 O'Driscoll
14 Bowe
15 Byrne
16 Ford
17 Vickery
18 Hines/O'Connell (assuming O'Connell starts)
19 Croft (although I have a sneaky suspicion Ryan Jones will have a blinder when he first plays and may force himself ahead)
20 Blair
21 Hook (offers more than O'Gara in my opinion off the bench)
22 Kearney/D'Arcy/Monye/Williams (if Williams doesnt start he'd scare the crepe out of tiring bokke in the 60th minute)

Kaplan is consistently the worst ref on the international panel that I have seen, I have a downer on every time I see it's him, he really has no idea... mindyou the English fella at the weekend was not good either. They seem to have no understanding of the motivations behind what goes off in scrum, ruck, maul etc etc.. The Lions pack were more than a stone a man heavier, why on earth would they consistantly drop the scrum?


Byrne
Bowe
BOD
Roberts
Fitzgerald
Jones
Phillips
Heaslip
Wallace
Croft
POC (needs to be better though)
Shaw (darkhorse - or AWJ)
Murray
Mears
Sheridan (Jenkins on bench)

I think Ryan Jones could improve the break down situation. He does a lot of unseen work/donkey work and would offer a more balanced backrow..lets see if he is given a chance.
For me neither Williams nor Fitz have done anything to merit a test place, surely Monye and Bowe must be favourites for the wings.

im glad im not the only one who saw the refereeing as funny at best :p and im also glad that the lions showed that they can turn up the heat when needed. agree with the general consensus on players who have played themselves into the test team:

BOD, AWJ, Jenkins, Roberts, Byrne, Phillips, Heaslip, Mears on todays performance were outstanding! throw Bowe and stephen Jones into there and the backs are pretty sorted...aside from that final wing slot...though have to say Fitzgerald did a solid job today, Williams played better, and Monye and Kearney will probably play a significant part of the enxt couple of games, so it's definately still up for grabs!

i also thought that Wallace (for a number 6) did a fantastic job today at 7, despite the horrendous (and ignored) killing of the ball at 2 of every 3 rucks on the sharks' part, and im now very interested to see if williams will go on to stake a claim for that shirt with Wallace at 6 and whether ryan jones or croft will get 6 and wallace at 7...competitions always good! and of course, jones can cover 8 too...all this considered, im really liking the feel of our back row at the moment!

and i anxiously await the results on Roberts' shoulder...Hook to replace if need be?

Kaplan was awful, nobody should be surprised as at least he is consistently inconsistent!

A good win for the Lions in a tough game. Test team starting to take shape now.

1 Jenkins
2 Mears (though his performance left a chink of light for Ford...)
3 Murray (Though Jones was good, Vickery carded AGAIN??)
4 Wyn Jones (just barely, and Hines/O'Callaghan could go ahead on Saturday.)
5 O'Connell
6 Croft (Playing Hines or O'Callaghan here is a possibility too.)
7 Wallace
9 Philips (Though Ellis has a chance if he has a flyer on Saturday.)
10 O'Gara (Though it's all to play for with Jones on Saturday. He has to better O'Gara's performance though, as he's only had an armchair ride so far.)
11 Fitzgerald (Right now. Monye, Earls or Kearney could still get in though.)
12 Roberts (D'Arcy and Flutey yet to show their stuff though.)
13 O'Driscoll
14 Bowe
15 Byrne
16 Ford
17 Vickery/Sheridan
18 Hines/O'Callaghan
19 R Jones/Hines/O'Callaghan/Croft
20 Ellis
21 Hook (offers more than Jones in my opinion off the bench)
22 Kearney/D'Arcy/Earls/Flutey (Up for grabs!)

As an aussie who has seen all the games I must say that Roberts, Phillips, AWJ, Heaslip, Byrne and BOD have to be certs. The way Phillips delivered with his pass tonight was fantastic for a SH fan to watch....a foot out in front to let the man hit the ball!!!

ROG did not have the best game of his life but I think against SA the combo of him and SJ is the better option. Hook is great against running teams like OZ but against the beasts he is just not good enough!

Am still worried about the Lion's lineout as VM is the master. I don't think there has been a man who has played who can work out what the oppo is thinking like him. POC will have to improve as if they get easy ball the Lions are in big trouble.

Good luck to both teams and I look forward to a close hard fought tour.

RUGBY...GOT TO LOVE IT!!!

No one has mentioned the contribution of the veteran Simon Shaw when he came on the field. He was outstanding and he culminated the performance with a vital turnover near our line. He was noticeably more physical and abrasive than the other locks on the pitch. I hope he makes the Test team.

Great tour to date with some interesting decisions to come for the selection of the test team. Hopefully the Shane Williams experiment is done and dusted and the other wingers will get a chance now! He has been poor all season and makes a mockery of the Lions "selecting players on form" quote. If that was the case he would be on tour in the USA with the rest of the Wales "a" team and Armatage or Thom Evans would be on tour.

Paul O'Connell was better last night, howeversome of his decision making is a bit rash and he needs to communicate better with the ref's. He is the one player allowed to talk to the ref during the game so why was the Jenkins vs Du Plessis issue not brought up?

The backrow has to be the major concern coming up to the test matches. The other Williams hasnt played but we keep getting told he will be fit... is that match fit? I dont think so! Wallace has to be in at 7 then as there is no other options. 6 would have to be Croft. Why Ryan Jones was called up is beyond me. Worsley and Powell offer cover with croft for the blindside... Why not get another openside out there? 8 has to be Heaslip. Powell is too obvious with poor handling skills and too keen to take contact. Thats not the aim of the game! Aim for the gaps!

Test team as it stands at present would be...

15: Byrne
14: Bowe
13: BOD
12: Roberts
11: Monye
10: Jones
9: Phillips
8: Heaslip
7: Wallace
6: Croft
5: Wyn Jones
4: POC
3: Murry
2: Mears
1: Jenkins

Subs: 16: Ford, 17: Sheridan, 18: Worsley, 19: Shaw, 20: Blair, 21:Fluety, 22: Fitzgerald

Would you lot stop moaning about the referee? Yes, he made a few weird decisions (a euphemism compared to the balling of eyes in the comments above), but it is a tour match and not a test. Kaplan is the world's most experienced Test referee and has been ranked no. 1 in SA for quite a while. There is a reason he refereed the Super 14 final (Super 14 decided to discount nationality for the competition which proved rather succesful).

Either way, I must say that the organisation and cohesion the Lions' pack showed against the Sharks was outstanding. Phillips' distribution I thought was of a high standard, and Jamie Roberts is a man beast. BOD...class, nuff said.

The Sharks didn't actually play badly, so hats off to the Lions for dominating from the get-go. You guys should beat WP, since their tight five aren't as good as the Sharks, but their back row is bigger and maybe better then the Sharks.

Hope the Lions keep it up, because if they do, the Test series is going to be way too close to call. I'll back SA (obviously) but I'm not happy about the Lions' putting doubt in my mind. :)

I still think ROG will get the nod. Even though Jones is consistent I feel he doesnt have the range of passing of O'Gara and against the boks rush defence we need someone who is gonna deliver the killer pass and Jones may buckle under the pressure put on him. I think our most important player is Byrne. He will have to kick well out of hand and support his wingers to cancel out any impact Habana has, as well as being consistent with catching the high ball. I think our best option for putting points on SA is intelligence at the breakdown, meaning no Englishmen accept maybe Croft (look what vickery did when he came on against sharks). And our runners like Byrne, Roberts and O'Driscoll running the angles to break the gaps a rush defence can give.

Sheridan has got to start for lions imo because if he had been in there tonight hed have found some binding and his colossal strength would have held up the scrum.
Jenkins is quite incredible for a prop in the loose, however he will get found out against the SA front row imo.
Reading earlier outraged comments about the tight head pulling jenkins down amused me the looseheads job is to hold up the scrum jenkins had neither the strength or guile to do this he got 'old manned' today.

Jenkins, didn't bind at all allowing his opposite number to nulify him as a scummager. As a loose head you need to bind on the back and lock your arm out at 90 degrees. First basic of scummaging, if you cant do this you don't deserve to be in the test team. As a result of this the back row were forced to attack at a standing start and lost most of the dynamism they needed to put the Sharks on the back foot, allowing them time to kill the rucks thus slowing down the game.

absolutely agree desmund, sure the tighthead had his shirt pulled out but you need to bring this to refs attention and at least try to bind on.
It amazes me how some people still say he is one of the first names pencilled in, im just posting off a jumbo eraser with jenkins stencilled on it first class to Geech SA.

ss_pag - with all due respect, it doesn't matter what ROG's range of passing is if all he is going to is kick the ball away. Jones is nailed on to start the first test assuming no injury, with ROG on the bench to kick the life out of the last 10 minutes if we have a lead to defend.

Can't believe several people are suggesting Sheridan ahead of Jenkins. RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!

agree with all the comments about Kaplan, but what can you do? i also agree with everyone that says that the back line is shaping up pretty clearly. i also think that we have plenty of guys who have put their hands up for the front row. Jenkins / Sheridan - probably start with one and have the other on the bench for maximum destruction potential; for me i would have Sheridan start to monster their scrum and then bring Jenkins on to add pain and mobility. Mears was excellent yesterday and i would think has the starting berth. Jones / Vickery for the other side

my big concern is the second row. i am not convinced that POC has shown us that he is the skipper (seems relatively anonymous; should have been all over Kaplan yesterday) and i didn't think that AWJ had a great game yesterday, although i really rate him. i thought SS did well when he came on. need a real enforcer attitude to get in amongst Matfield and Botha

Back row is a bit unbalanced but Croft is playing very well and Heaslip had another good one yesterday. Pray for MW to hit some form this weekend and i think that we have it

Back row is also

Well, just look at all the good combinations we're discussing here. Geech is going to have a bit of a headache if you ask me. Last night, the Lions really turned it on, and were unlucky not to get further than 7-3 by half time, but fair play to the Sharks they defended awesomely. I saw some of the looks on the Boks faces up in the stands and they were deep in contemplation, they know it's not going to be easy for them either. Lions side definitely starting to brew as a team nicely. We need to see some other players this weekend e.g. MW, Flutey, Worsely etc., just to make sure they're fit and up to the mark, because subs are going to be critical as well as the starters. I have this nagging worry that injuries will get the Lions if we're not careful....

Luke Fitzgerald - Is it me or is this guy tottaly over hyped????

He does very little for me. His international record reads 12 caps and 2 tries!! says it all really. Yes hes pretty solid but its not like he he's very quick in international terms!! hed get no where near habana, rokocoko, howlett etc

Tom Croft - Useless again, does nothing but hang about on the wing! only saw him make 1 ball carry in the whole game. Rocky Elsom and Shalk Burger are proper number 6's. Tom croft plays as a wing in disguise.

I dont necessarilly blame the referee for the binding issues and the wrong decisions against Jenkins. Each time the ref was on the other side therefore his touch judge should have been doing a damn sight more to help him. Once the ref came to Jenkins side of the scrum he started awarding the penalties to the Lions.

For all of you that have sheridan ahead of jenkins, i think you need to rethink, sheridan may be slightly more damaging in the scrum but jenkins workrate around the park is unbeleivable, no way sheridan would make it to some of the breakdowns jenkins was getting involved in.

On Shane Williams, i dont think he will have a chance at a test start now, in my opinion he has been very poor, i would like another look at monye as although he scored a couple of tries the other day, he had a few bad moments, would like to see kearney on the wing as i think he will be on the bench to cover byrne at fullback or the wing position. Fitzgerald looked lively so he still has a chance.

On croft, he isnt physical enough and it showed last night, Ferris is as big a loss to the back row as roberts would be to the centres.

This tour (less that two weeks in) already has a very good feel to it. 4 out of 4. Not convincing at times, but partnerships being built and test places still up for grabs. Contrast this with 4 years ago. There was definitely a wednesday team and a saturday team last time. No so this time. In my opinion.

I* think dead certs for the test 15 will be Byrne at 15, bowe at 14, bod and roberts 12 and 13, 11 ??, Jones at 10 and phillips at 9.
the pack is still up for debate but at the moment.
1 Jenkins (with Sheridan on the bench) 2 ?? (Mears did himself no favours yesterday giving away 10 meters his ill discipline may cost him - but there is no standout candidate) 3 between Vickery and Jones, 4 POC (by default not on form)5. AWJ 6. Croft 7. Williams 8. Heaslip

Therefore the only real queries are at 11 and 2. They are still up for grabs so lets see what happens next. 3. could go either way between the two stated. The second row seems unlucky on Shaw who imo should be there on form with AWJ but POC as captain will start. Shaw will be on the bench.

32 RugbymadRick and anybody else who cares to read this:

It has just come to my notice that Powell has a broken finger that could keep him out of contention of taking any part in the first test. So it can be assumed that Ryan Jones was flown out not only to cover the 6 position but also 8. He has regularly played at 6 for Wales but most pundits consider him a BETTER 8. It's all starting to make sense now. Agree that Heaslip is THE MAN for now, but Jones would be a good option on the bench - assuming he doesn't play an absolute blinder on Saturday.
The fact that the Lions enjoyed a huge amount of possession tonight and didn't concede any tries speaks volumes about how well the FORWARDS played as a unit. One or two might not have been conspicuous as some would have liked, but that was probably because they were very busy doing the dirty work like getting the ball back from rucks and tackling like demented demons. We should be praising every last man of the pack.

The referee was shocking, but a very good performance by the Lions. I think it is also worth mentioning how good the Sharks' defence was in the first half especially. It gives the Lions a good idea of what to expect in the tests for the full 80 minutes. The Lions were patient and disciplined and will need to take that into those tests.

And what is Airwolf 11 on about saying that Byrne playing 3 times smacks of Welsh bias and AWJ having a nightmare? Would I be right in thinking its more of a case of him being anti-Welsh? Byrne has played 3 and Kearney 1, but Kearney is likely to play on the weekend. Besides, Kearney is a very good player, but Byrne is clearly a better player (at the moment at least) and deserves a test spot on merit.

Mears has cemented the number 2 shirt and O'gara gave the ball away too often. Jones should have number 10 shirt as there is more to his game than O'Gara. Heaslip did really well too and should take the number 8. BOD and Roberts were excellent.

my team is as follows:

15)Byrne
14)Bowe
13)BOD
12)Roberts (if his shoulder holds out)
11)Monye (I would like to see Williams but he simply has not done enough)
10)Jones
9) Phillips
8) Heaslip
7) Wallace or Williams (I don't think Williams has enough time to force his way into the first test - but could earn a spot in the 2nd/3rd test matches - we'll see)
6) Croft (I don't think he did too badly last night myself0
5) O'Connell
4) AWJ or Hines
3) Vickery
2) Mears
1) Jenkins

RugbymadRick - Armatage was not good enough for the Lions, it's as simple as that.

We need to have a tight five who can dominate at scrum time to allow our back row to gain forward momentum ,to ensure quick ball. If one of the props is being prevented from scummaging this completly upsets the momentum of the team. Having a prop run round the pitch making marvolous tackles to defend is great to watch but we shouldn't need that to happen.
Pick the best scrummagers in the front row first and one we have momentum,put on the whippets to run around and look pretty

desmund, how did the welsh scrum fair agaisnt the english this season????

Sheridan is not the scrumager he is cracked up to be! i have seen him dominated numerous times!!

Jenkins dominated the scrum yesterday, only shocking reffering cost him

15. Byrne - Kearney hasn't had the opportunities to impose on the tour, but I think the managemenet knew that Byrne was the favourite. Guscott's favourite player in the world is a dead cert.

14. Bowe - The only winger to have showed form as of yet, albeit against lesser opposition for the best part.

13. BOD - Can create something out of nothing, I still think he should have been captain.

12. Roberts - When picking an inside centre perfect for taking to the Bokke the attributes selected would create Jamie Roberts. Solid in both attack and defence and forming a solid link with BO'D, another dead-cert.

11. Williams - Until another winger does something worth noting then Shane has ro be picked as we all know what he can do. He has given the Bokke nightmares in the past, and no other winger has held their hand up and given a performance to merit inclusion.

10. Jones - A decision based on defensive ability, although this is one of the most fiercely contested spots. RO'G has been hit and miss so far, with Hook impressing when he has had the chance. The dilemma is not only who starts, but who is on the bench.

9. Phillips - Physical, quick, able to throw a bullet pass, on his day the best in the world in my opinion.

8. Heaslip - Little competition but has been solid and impressive in his workrate. Forming a good partnership with Phillips.

7. Wallace - Another solid performer, and has to be picked on the basis that Martyn Williams has not had the chance to perform as of yet.

6. Croft - Perhaps fortunate to have seen Ferris injured, but has done well in the line out and performed admirably in the loose. Can expect a challenge from the fired up Ryan Jones.

5. PO'C - Still the best second row in the British Isles and is now adjusting to his role as captain. Real competition to Matfield.

4. Wyn Jones - Hines is just behind in the pecking order, and nees a chance on the weekend. AWC on points so far.

3. Vickery - Need to see more of Murray, but the experience of Vickery will give the fierce SA pack nightmares. Needs to cut out the indiscipline.

2. Mears - The only class hooker available (Flannery unlucky). Worked well in the loose and hit his man regularly.

1. Jenkins - Work-rate second to none, a great scrummager (Last night's opposition couldn't deal with him). Not sure why Sheridan is touted as the Test number 1 when GJ has been outstanding.

Subs:

Ford
Sheridan
Hines
Williams
Blair
Hook
Kearney

Absolutely amazed that Adam Jones contribution has been ignored. He has shown on this tour that he is the best tighthead by a country mile. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that taking into account the requirements of his position he has been the best Lions player full stop.

Please don't blame the referee for our failings, one of the first things we are taught is to play the referee to your advantage, we are not talking Welsh or English, Irish or Scottish but playing the best men, on current form for the lions. One Team, One Aim to win the test series !!!

I like a back line of croft, heaslip, williams. It offers a balance with a mix of pace, power and guile (respecitvely) and croft as another option at the line-out which is important given the Saffa second row.

Front row of Jenkins, mears, sheridan. I am not sure who to play alongside O'Connell at this stage, with no outstanding candidate.

The back line almost picks itself with question marks at 10 and for one of the wingers.

I have moaned about Kaplain and his awful performances for years and years with the worry that it was bias as they tended to shaft the England team. I am glad that a few of my british and irish bretherin are finally realising that he is a fastidious and inconsistent whistle happy narcissist

I fear a repeat of 1997 2-1 to the lions. They're getting real good match practice whilst the boks are not. The bulls players would not have played for 3 weeks, the rest for 5 weeks before the 1st test. Will they be able to hit the ground running? I hope so but doubt it. Then, after a 1st defeat, they'll be reeling. Will they be able to recover for the 2nd test? By the 3rd test they'll be ready to salvage some pride for a 2-1 series defeat. I'll be in my 40's the next time the lions come to SA! I hope I am wrong and the boks can perform from the start as then it will be really close.

It has been apparent that the area where the Lions have been consistently under the most pressure has been at the breakdown - and, consequently, they have come under immediate heavy pressure as soon as a yellow has been issued and we have gone down to two back rowers. Ferris' binning last Saturday altered the entire pattern of the match, and the Lions never came close to re-establishing the early dominance. The selectors should be giving hard thought to individual records re yellows.....this is of particular significance re Ryan Jones, Vickery and Hines.

I tend to agree with a lot of what airwolf11 had to say. Shane Williams appears to have been given ample opportunities to make his mark and, to be honest, he hasn't! What that now means is that in the next week and a bit, i.e. two games, Fitzgerald and Monye will have to justify a place in the test starting line-up. Apart from them, the next best option imo is to move Kearney to the wing who, in his one appearance, put in a tidy performance, but not enough to remove Byrne from the Test XV.
Like many others, I think that the back division, apart from left wing, is near enough a done deal.
In the forwards, Jenkins deserves the nod, along with Mears (yep, shame Flannery isn't on tour) and either Jones or Murray - Vickery is too much of a bad boy! POC has to start. He is always willing to take the ball up and doesn't shirk from hard work in the tight or loose. AWJ looked hesitant yesterday and has left the door ajar for Hines to stake a place. O'Callaghan and Shaw appear to be on water carrying duty, although the latter did make a good cameo appearance yesterday.
Back row....Heaslip has 8, unless Jones makes a similar impression to the last Tour; on the flanks, either Croft and Wallace, or Wallace and Williams, if he is fit. Hopefully, Williams will make it.
No more injuries, please!
Let's hope for three excellent tests! (with, ahem, the Lions to win!)

Clinical 2nd half display from the Lions. Much improved at the breakdown in the 2nd half, scrum utterly dominant, some incisive back play led to some lovely tries and a great display in defence at the end.

Agree with comments about Kaplain - he is an utter clown. The Sharks were allowed to get away with murder at the breakdown in terms of going over the top and going in at the side etc. And his interpretation of the scrum in the first half was mystifing - Jones and Jenkins had the other props in their pockets so how they kept on being penalised beggared belief.

I honestly believe that the test results could hinge on the officials interpretation of the breakdown. SA (and to a lesser extent NZ and Aus) have got away with it for years now and the refs are either too ignorant or too scared to punish them. It was noticeable in the Autumn how when the refs did clamp down (against Wales to a lesser extent but certainly against Scotland) the Boks struggled.

All that said though, the SA pack is still an awesome force and on a level playing field we will still be hard pushed to match them.

I know we are all talking about the back row not dominating, but apart from his break for the try, thought that Phillips stopped any go forward that we had, by not getting the ball out quick enough. At times I thought that Goode was playing Flyhalf with the amount of ball that O'Gara was he was kicking in the Sharks' half.

Williams was unseen for most of the match, the three incidents I can remember are the knockon from the high ball from O'Gara, the trip and by far and away the funniest part of the game, when he was demanding the ball of Heslip in the last few minutes of the game, and Heslip just looked at him with the expression, "What have you done to deserve the ball?" and then proceeded to quick tap the penalty and score the try himself.

I realy dont understand what the big issue is?
The Lions have not been tested and the tight five of botha, matfield, spies, smith and burger will do the job please believe me - you dont beat SA in SA to often!
And finally our backs will be up for it De Villiers is a class act and Olivier is in the best form of his life, adding to that we have the best scrum half in the world and a fly half who's kicking drop goals left,right and center - oh yes and hang on i think habanna and pieterson will hold their own!!!!!
SA are a class outfit and one will see that next weekend.

Please don't blame the referee for our failings, one of the first things we are taught is to play the referee to your advantage, we are not talking Welsh or English, Irish or Scottish but playing the best men, on current form for the lions. One Team, One Aim to win the test series !!!

________________________________________________________________________

What a pile of tripe!!! one of the worst clichés ever used on the rugby field. I play at a semi professional level so I am qualified in my opinion.

If a ref takes a dislike to you there is nothing you can do about it!!

what would you suggest Jenkins do last night as he wasnt the one slipping his bind and taking the scrum down???? how do you suggest he "should have played the referee"??

Nothing changed in the second half yet we were awarded every decision at the scrum!! that tells you how wrong he was in the first half!!

Technically what could he have done differently? me thinks you dont have a notion to be honest.

All you ask as a player is for a referee to be consistent in his decisions, that way you can clearly see how he will interperate the laws from the outset. If you then continually give penalties away you can only blame yourself.

If however, the referee is inconsistent how do you become aware of his interpretations? I have played under some shocking referees but who have been consistent with their decisions and I would always come of the field with respect for them!! I have played under other refs who you can be damn sure have a biased to one team - as was demonstrated last night!!

The team with the "Lions Share" :) of possession should always get the majority of the decisions!

Agree with Welshroberto with all positions but SW and Phil Vickery (ok for 60 mins max). In fairness SW didnt have many opportunities to show what he can really do, but then again how many chances is he going to need to rediscover form of 6N in 2008?. Fitzgerald gets my vote. Not too sure about tight head pos. Jury's still out.

Was disappointed with how often ROG kicked when he should of kept ball in hand (I know ref. had already given pen, but run it all the same!!). Having said that he nailed some great kicks from near the touchline.

I know we shouldn't keep harping on about the ref. but thats got to be the worst display I've seen Jonathon Kaplin ever give, & I think he's alright (everyones mentioned his faults so I wont go on!!). It got to the stage where I wondered if the Lions management might of said to him "Give most things against us to test our discipline please Jonathon". (England done this in run up to World Cup 03 when they trained against the U21's with Clive Woodward getting the ref. to ping the 1st team constantly to test them). Overall, I thought everyone behaved themselves fairly well.

Any way my test team:

15 - Byrne (awesome)
14 - Bowe (class)
13 - BOD (nuff said)
12 _ Roberts (strong as an ox - slightly concerned Boks will mark him ala Worsley in 6N this year)
11 - Fitzgerald (always looked for the ball last night - looked good)
10 - Jones (prefer to see ball in hand rather than kick, kick as O'Gara)
9 - Phillips (quality)
8 - Heaslip (superb again last night)
7 - Wallace/Williams (50/50 this one - Wallace done some great scrapping on the ground last night, just like nugget and is a bit more physical.
6 - Croft (Feel v sorry for Ferris, but best replacement in his absense - really like his pace too)
5 - POC (man is a rock)
4 - AWJ (always works his socks off - v gd in defence)
3 - hmmmm,....
2 -Mears (superb last night - gd accuracy & took try v well)
1 - Jenkins (say no more - kept v cool head as already mentioned by others - also done good foragging work)


Just by opinion guys. BTW, I'm English and am not biased in anyway who represents the Lions - I just want to see us win. Right man for the right job, regardless of nationality.

My biggest concern is the Captain. POC has yet to demonstrate true leadership qualities on the park and I think he has looked overawed. Worse still is his inability to see what's happening around him and to offload. He's pretty much guaranteed to hit the first defender and go straight to ground. We know it and so do the Boks - turnover opportunity.

Not surprisingly, when Shaw came on against the Sharks, he did offload and the attacks continued at pace. This ability to keep the Boks pack on the move and not give them easy targets to smash is vital - particularly as we are struggling at the breakdown.

As it stands at the moment, I would go for Shaw and AWJ in the second row for their footballing skills. Remember before the tour people were saying "don't take them on at their own physical game"? We would do well to bring that back to the forefront of our tactics and selection.

It would indeed be a brave coach who didn't pick his tour captain for the test side but, despite POC's honesty and graft, they have to look at that option sooner before the series has gone. Or O'connell develops a more rounded game which I think is unlikely in two weeks.

Please Wonderous one don't get personal !

Maybe someone at half time pointed out what was going on, it doesn't alter the fact that Jenkins did not bind at all,allowing the Sharks tighthead to bind on to Jenkins arm and all Jenkins could to was to drop on to his head, surely his hips should be in line with his shoulders to allow him to at least compete.
I'm sure with a few tips from the lions scrummaging coach he will alleviate these faults from his game and possibly force his way into the test team.

I also think Jones is the best performing tight head on tour , man on form you see

this may be the wrong place to post this comment but here goes. i had to watch the highlights of the game last night thanks to Bob Crowe and his henchmen. i therefore had to listen to the sky commentary. Stuart Barnes and the muppet sitting on his hand are the most anti northern hemisphere/anti lions commentators around. you can hear the delight in the little fat one's voice every time the run of play goes against the Lions. never once did they comment about the poor refereeing decsions (again) or the fact that at any breakdown, south africans are allowed to hold onto the ball/paw at our ball when they are lying on the ground and what do we get from Pinky and Perky? 'yes well the lions player was holding onto the ball'.
when i am shouting at the TV at the amount of illegal activity being perpetrated by the saffers not being penalised by the so called ref, i dont then want to hear these pillocks rolling over and 'accepting' its because our guys are not as sharp or as strong.
BBC, please put a few coppers away now and save them up to buy the tour to Oz, for sake on my sanity alone.
sorry for the rant.

In my opinion the Test side has now been decided except for 2 or 3 positions.

15- Byrne (although he display last night wasnt as great as the media would have you believe dropped balls and turned over on the line going for glory when he could have just set it up)
14- Bowe
13- BOD
12- J Rob
*11- Monye
10- Jones
9- Phillips

8- Heaslip
*7- Wallace/Williams
6- Croft
5- AWJ
4- POC
*3- Murray/Jones/Vickery
2- Mears
1- Jenkins

1st * Monye is leading the pack with Fitzgerald close behind still up for grabs and wont be decided until after the final game before the test

2nd * Going to Wallace at the moment due to concerns of Williams' injury Williams needs to play a full 80 and come through unscathed to be in with a chance. Also there have been a few mentions of both Wallace and Williams starting ahead of Croft however against Matfield we need all the lineout options we can get so Croft starts and imo would have started ahead of Ferris as well.

3rd * Up for grabs really not even sure who the front runner is. Shame both Jenkins and Sheridan are loose heads (doubt they would risk starting both with one out of position as we need mmore than someone who can merely do a job at scrum time)

all the others are certs barring injury in my opinion

Results are good so far but difficult to measure true quality of the opposition. At least the spirit is back after Sir Clive's debacle.

BIG worry over POC form and leadership (though he seemed the man at the time) otherwise the team is now taking shape. Hopefully good performances from others in the squad in remaining pre-test matches will keep up the pressure, maybe the test team combinations will slightly change over the series depending on the first test result. So first test barring injury...

1 Jenkins*
2 Mears*
3 Jones (Vickery giving too many pens)
4 Hines
5 POC (only as captain, otherwise AWJ on form)
6 Croft (needs another pre test performance)
7 Wallace*
8 Heaslip*
9 Philips*
10 Jones
11 Monye
12 Roberts*
13 BOD*
14 Bowe
15 Byrne*

*rest until the test
bench
Fitzgerald
Flutey
Ellis
Sheridan
Rees
Shaw
Jones

Also meant to say that it is a shame about Shane Williams but if form dictates then he cannot start however if Geech wants to take the risk on him then it would be understandable

Croft will be annihilated if he plays, unfortunately Roberts will be totally inaffective Worsley completely took him out of the game in Cradiff this year and the boks will have done their homework on him and Mike Philips is just a glory hunter who takes so much time out of the ball and won't get the ball out to the backs quickly enough. Fitzy will be a revalation in defence and attack and will be the lions go to guy along with Byrne and God.

The biggest decision the lions management have is getting the backrow right, if the lions backrow don't at least get parity witht the boks backrow then it's very hard to see anything other that a boks whitewash, having said that when Brian O'Driscoll takes the field all bets are off.

I realy dont understand what the big issue is?
The Lions have not been tested and the tight five of botha, matfield, spies, smith and burger will do the job please believe me and the game will be won at the breakdown and the Lions look very vulnerable in that section and the Boks will pounce on that - you dont beat SA in SA to often!
And finally our backs will be up for it De Villiers is a class act and Olivier is in the best form of his life, adding to that we have the best scrum half in the world and a fly half who's kicking drop goals left,right and center - oh yes and hang on i think habanna and pieterson will hold their own!!!!!
SA are a class outfit and one will see that next weekend.

Perhaps the coaches are thinking along the following lines;

1. the back line is virtually settled with only 13 up for grabs - Monye or Kearney. I would go with Monye for his pace against Ndungane. Kearney will be on the bench covering the back three positions.Jones will be 10 with Philips at 9.
2. we need a strong but mobile front row rather than solely destructive. Much as I would love to see Sheridan take Smit apart, and he would, will it make much difference to the game? Sheridan destroyed the SA props in the world cup but England lost two games at a canter. So Jenkins will play and rightly so with either Murray or Jones. Vickery will be on the bench to cover both open and tight and reduce the incidence of him being pinged
3. POC will play of course and it is a waste of time debating it here. It is inconceivable that the Lions will drop their captain before a test has even been played.
4. What the Lions lack to date is an enforcer with stacks of grunt. I would play Hines with POC for 55 minutes and then bring AWJ on. He won't take a step back and jumps at 2.
5. The back row is where we will probably lose the series. Much has been said about the referee in the Sharks game.I doubt whether he is either biased or incompetent. It is therefore a matter of interpretation. The Sharks were very efficient in driving over the top at the breakdown, lying over the ruck and either winning the ball or slowing our ball down. The were not pinged yet we were frequently. Perhaps non SA refs will have a different take on it. However what is clear is that Croft is not the man to play 6 against Juan Smith and his cronies. He simply does not have the physicality necessary and it is now clear how much we will miss Ferris. Worseley is not an option - we are told he can tackle but surely that is a given for any back row forward. I would not have had him on the tour at all, and so too Powell. They do not play with any guile or intelligence. It will be interesting to see how Jones shapes up in the coming few games. I think he is a strong possibility for the test side at 6 strange as it may seem. He may well just rise to the occasion.

kaplan wasnt great last night, and some of his interpretations at the scrum were 'interesting', however, i think he sufferers like alot of referees in that he doesnt completely understand what is going on in the front row, so he penalises things he can see. so if he sees someone binding incorrectly or rolling their shoulder he pings that, even though that may not have been the reason the scrum went down.

i thought the lions were a bit hard done by at the breakdown a couple of times too, but you have to take into consideration the new rule, where the first person to the breakdown can keep his hands on the ball even once the ruck has formed, if he stays on his feet. personally i think the rule just causes more confusion, but thats what the great minds at the irb have decided.

english referee waynes barnes reffed the game on saturday so i dont think he can be accused of bias, although i thought brussow got away with handling on the floor a few times. refs do make mistakes. and while we're here, number 6 is south africa is the openside flanker. ie schalk burger plays openside for the 'boks, juan smith plays blindside and wears number 7.

speaking of barnes, i seem to remember all black supporters being poor losers (not unjustified in many cases) for complaining about wayne barnes after the rwc quarter final, and yet here everyone is saying kaplans was the worst refereeing performance ever and he was biassed. interestingly, the final penalty count last night was 15-15. now, im not saying kaplan had a great game by any stretch, but some perspective is always good. some times you just have to take the rough with the smooth.

in terms of the test team i think ferris will be greatly missed. not only is he a great athlete, he is also very physical, which is important against the boks because you can bet your bottom dollar they will be very abrasive. i just wonder whether croft is the best man to deal with that.

i personally dont think o'connell is one of the two best options at second row (all things being equal i would go for hines and awj) but as captain he is inked in already. it will be interesting to see how hines goes in the weekend (im assuming he will be playing) as he is a front of the line out guy, and awj struggled there a little last night as he normally jumps in the middle, as does poc. if he goes well he could edge out awj (again, assuming poc is in the test team already) on that basis. i dont think the front/middle of the lineout jumper is such an issue nowadays as it was say 5-10 years ago, but it might factor into the selectors thinking.

all of which makes me wonder whether hines would be considered as a blindside. ive never really seen him play there aside from saturday but geech mentioned prior to that match that he has played there a bit before. he has great hands and is very mobile, plus he is a thug (well, the modern day version thereof at least), and you need a thug or two. i loved it when he bulldogged one of the cheetahs on saturday perhaps ever so slightly after the whistle and got into a bit of a scuffle. if you dont play the role of the bully against south africa, you will be bullied.

there was also a moment in the scotland v ireland 6n match which i loved: ireland were awarded a penalty and ferris (perhaps the hardest of the irish forwards, certainly one of) came charging up to grab the ball for a quick tap, pushing and shoving a few scottish players in his efforts. hines had the ball and ferris eventually realised this and charged towards him, then saw who it was and stopped quite suddenly. hines held the ball out in front of himself and then took it away a couple of times, taunting ferris, as if to say: if youre man enough, youll take it. instead of doing so ferris appealed to the referee who marched the scots 10 metres. so i guess you could say it was stupid, but i just love little moments like that in game.

now im not saying ferris is a pansy, far from it, or that he was terrified of hines, but he certainly made ferris think. i always want a player or two like that in my team.

i dont in all honesty think they will try that, but thought id throw it out there. perhaps ryan jones could make a late bit for the test team?

speaking of playing guys slightly out of position, there doesnt seem to be much talk of kearney playing on the wing. he is playing well and with byrne having all but locked up the fullbacks birth and no winger apart from bowe making an outstanding case for inclusion, why not put kearney on the wing. he has played alot of top level rugby there.

The referee had a complete shocker, Jenkins absolutely stuffed his prop, even if it is not in the linesman's remit, he should have said something to Kaplan to stop him committing professional suicide. Also the sharks were diving over and off their feet at every ruck. The maul was a joke because the sharks blatantly pulled every one down they could, this is quite rightly against the rules again, the ref should be brought to book. He was hailed pre-match by Gatland, another great call Warren.
Front row - Jenkins was awesome all round, Mears, growing every match, forget his size, he is accurate and busy. Jones underrated at scrum time.
2nd row - POC much improved, AWJ, good but few too many mistakes.
Backrow - Heaslip, excellent. Wallace good but would like to see Williams back out there for competition. Croft, annonymous, showed in a competitive game he is too light weight, just shows what a loss Ferris is.
No9 - Phillips, bit slow around the breakdown, took some wrong decisions for contact but showed his class with his try.
No10 - OG, has no coach ever told hime tackling is a requirement in rugby not an option? Will not challenge for a starting test spot.
Centres - Speak for themselves, BOD, what he has lost in gas he makes up for in class.
Wings - I know Shane did not show any magic and he seemed to hang around a fair bit hoping for a lucky pass but I still think if he scores a couple of trys he will soar(welsh and one eyed I know!!!). Fitzy, busy.
Byrne - Class try.
Subs - Simon Shaw showed excellent work rate when he came on.
Overall, a hard fight but well won. Next match hope to see Martyn and others from the back row stand up and cause some competition. Also D'arcy to be firing as we are a bit thin apart from the two main boys.

Like the sound of Bowe and Fitzgerald on the wings, but Shane does bring a "scary" factor to the game i.e. the opposition usually have about 4 players watching him. Having said that, I would like to see Monye in action this weekend to give him a fair chance of selection, but for me it's the Irish wings with Shane on the bench.

Picking the pack is going to be interesting (i.e. difficult), there's so many options. Would really like to see a complete change of pack for this weekend, just to see how the others perform. Mind you, having said that, they could give us an even bigger headache ! and Ryan Jones hasn't even arrived yet !!

I bet the Boks are starting to worry a bit.....

"think s jones has 10 rog didnt do enuf i tink!! heaslip and philips have 8 and 9 surely,feel sorry for kearney, i like byrne but dey hav not been on equal footin to make a case for inclusion,also mears wli prob take 2 now"

Eh?

My team....so far....

1 Sheridan
2 Mears
3 Jones
4 AWJ
5 POC
6 M Williams
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip
9 Philips
10 Jones
11 Fitzgerald
12 Roberts
13 BOD
14 Bowe
15 Byrne

Subs

ROG
Shane
Flutey
Ryan Jones
Jenkins
Hines
Ford

To crazyhorseace

I actually think Stuart Barnes writes pretty well, but as a commentator he talks far far too much and as you say he speaks crap, i.e. chilcottese, (definition, "those SH players arrre miles better than ouooors).

POC not good enough to be picked on merit by quite a bit. He reminds me of an english forward, always in the ch*****n way of the ball when it is meant for the backs

Markoroyal

So Roberts will be innaffective will he? Yeah right. It is true that Worsley took him out of the game in the 6N with a great defensive man-of-the-match display, and SA may very well use the same tactics. However, when a team commits a player or players to basically man mark Roberts, this will leave a gap elsewhere on the pitch to exploit. The Lions will need to have a plan in place to take advantage of this, which is something Wales never did against England.

And Phillips is a class above any scrum half in the squad, and has demonstrated that he can play slow and quick ball really well on numerous occasions. I don't know what glasses you have been wearing.

Two things I forgot to mention earlier that concern me:

1) Breakdown - which many people have already mentioned
2) How clinical we were, or weren't more to the point (ok they improved in 2nd half). How often do you see SA/AUS/NZ dominate possession as we did in the first 20mins (or any amount of time) and not put points on the board?. SA in their own back yard will yield few opportunities to cross the line, and when presented with them, they need taking I feel. Although performance was better last night, I'd love to see us be more ruthless.

Don't think SA will be having too many sleepless nights, but then thats what we want. Whether we can be good enough for a series win, I do have doubts. On the other hand, no one gave us a hope in '97 and look what happened then!!. Is hoping for a repeat too much to ask for?...................

70. goyagoodthing:

Nobody doubts that 'SA are a class outfit' - your words, no team wins the WC and not be a class outfit. But that was THEN and we are in the NOW.
And imo SA are not as classy NOW as they were THEN. They won 2 and lost 4 in the Tri-nations which suggests they have been going steadily downhill since the WC in 2007 and are NOW very beatable.
Your post was all about 'talking up' the BOKS as though you are trying to convince YOURSELF that SA have the resources to win the series.
You're right, we will see from next weekend and onwards.
Can't wait myself. I might have a flutter on a Lions series win.

would place money on the following starting line up for the 1st test....
1.Jenkins
2.Mears
3.Vickery
4.Wynn-Jones
5.O'Connell
6.Croft
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip
9.Phillips
10.Jones

11.Bowe
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll
14.Monye/Fitzgerald
15.Byrne

Replacements: Sheridan, Shaw, M.Williams, Ford, Ellis, Flutey, Kearney

I would prefer to see a Shaw, AWJ combination in the second row, but that's not going to happen. Croft has to play to secure line out if POC and AWJ play together. Question mark over the second wing spot, where Monye, Fitzgerald or Kearney could all play. Only other 'bolter' could be how well Ryan Jones plays over the next couple of weeks as he could easily push Croft for the No.6 jersey if he plays well and Croft plays like he did last night.

Am I the only sane person here?
Mike Phillips is nowhere near the class of scrum half we need to take on the Boks....
He had a terrible first half last night, consistently slowing the play, and delivering off the back foot, despite playing behind a pack going forwards.
His unbreakable habit of taking two steps, then reloading his pass, will leave him wide open against a world class Springbok scrum-half and back row.....and give their backline a easy time stepping up in defence.
They will eat him for breakfast.
As for the welshroberto, who stated he is 'on his day the best in the world'....... that's a complete insult to the likes of Fourie Du Preez and Piri Weepu.
Ok, whinge over..... would like to see Ellis get another chance on Saturday, he was absolutely outstanding for England against France in March.

oddster - Phillips wasn't at his best last night, but he is still better than Ellis and Blair on current form. Would be nice to see a little more competition for the 9 slot, so would also like to see Ellis get a run on Saturday, especially as Blair currently looks pedestrian.

I thought the pack played well as a cohesive unit last night. Yes the breakdown wasn't pefect but on a lot of occasions Mr Kaplan appeared to be playing by different sets of rules for the two teams; the Sharks were consisently off their feet and he just didn't bother pinging them. That was a decent Sharks pack they played last night; Du Plessis, Carstens and the Namibian bloke at hooker are all intenations, Miller was a Bok though he's probably old enough now to have Grandchildren, Skeete is rated over there as are Deysel and Daniel.

Current Test Picks on form and availablity:

1 A Jones - Carstens is no mug and I thought Jones had him in his pocket yesterday
2 L Mears - I think he'll still struggle to make yardage in the tests but his throwing is streets ahead of his competition
3 G Jenkins - Kaplan's a tit who doesn't understand scrumagging. He's been the best LH in Europe a while now; his all-round game especially his defensive contribution are ouotstanding.
4 - P O'C - skipper and a much improved performance last night
5 - A W-J - no-one's really put their hand up here but he's marginally ahead of Shaw and Hines imho
6 - T Croft - Yes his breakdown work is not perfect (he's just too tall and angular) but nor, frankly has anyone else's been. He's fantastic on the front foot and we'll surely want to use him all-over the lineout to get him up in the air early and try to compete with Matfield.
7 - D Wallace - if M Williams has belter on the floor this weekend he should get in ahead of Wallace, however DW's the man in posession. Good on the front foot again last night.
8 - J Heaslip - playing really well and has the physique to rough Spies and Co up a bit.
9- M Phillips - I still think we've not got the best Shaves on tour necessarily and Phillips often doesn't get the ball away from the breakdown quick enough but he's the best of the guys we have out there and has enough dog about him to get under those Boks with a short fuse..
10- S Jones - ROG was again not at his best last night....if we're going to be honest he hasn't been for a year or so...
12- J Roberts - I don't care how good JdV thinks he is he's not going to be looking forward to meeting this guy..on terrific form..
13- BOD - No contest
14 - T Bowe - hardest-working winger, can also help out at the breakdiown out wide where he makes excellent decisions
15 - L Byrne - top man at the back at mo in NH, only Mills M from NZ's operating at the same level right now.

Sorry to see poor crowds for the provincial games but it's SARU's fault; removing the boks from circulation but putting up the ticket prices to equal to/ more than Tri-nations games was always going to back-fire...

I thought the Lions were excellent with a number of players confirming that they are nailed on for Test places - Byrne, BOD, Roberts, Phillips, Heaslip, Wallace, Mears

Jenkins' treatment in the scrum reminded me of Vickery's treatment in the 2003 World Cup final. Both players were so dominant that their opposing prop had to resort to illegal tactics and both players got pinged for it. Jenkins definitely in the Test side for me as he gives alot more round the park that Sheridan.

Shane Williams is playing himself out of the Test side for me. He did nothing last night and I think Fitzgerald and Monye are infront of him in the pecking order now. Bowe an absolute cert on the other wing.

The back row is a slight worry as Croft was a bit anonymous last night and I'm worried Williams is slightly lacking in pace. Ferris could be a big miss. I think Croft will come good though and him, Wallace and Heaslip will start

here's my Test side:

15. Byrne
14. Monye
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. Bowe
10. Jones
9. Phillips
1. Jenkins
2. Mears
3. Jones
4. Wynn-Jones
5. O'Connell
6. Croft
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip

Subs

Sheridan
Shaw
M.Willams
Ford
Ellis
Flutey
Fitzgerald

80. BucksWelsh

Im not to sure that we are or have gone downhill since the WC and with ref to the TRI NATIONS yours stats are correct but Im not to sure if you watched any Super 14 this year(SA/Bulls won!)
The Boks tight 5 will be killer at the breakdown and thats were I recon the game will be decided, including 2 games in the highveld were I promise you can only favour the Boks!

Right eventually got round to signing up so here goes.
I don't think many of the "nailed on" test certainties that have been discussed on this and previous threads are necessarily the case. The irony is that I agree with those who say that on form POC shouldn't be in. However, the first name on the sheet will be his and actually I don't mind because he has proved over the years he is a big game player.
AWJ - I had him down (before last night) as a starter, however I now think there is room for Shaw or Hines to make it in. Whilst his contribution in joining a ruck won us our first turnover last night there were two occassions where he went into contact and fell the wrong way and got turned over. Had he fallen the other way there was a man on his shoulder who could have secured the ball. This suggests a bit of a lack of awareness. The missed restart wasn't too great either.
Byrne - Ok, I conceed the guy is pretty good and he's shown loads of invention in two of his tries. However, the fact is that he has made some uncharacteristic errors and Kearney is a pretty decent player too who should be given every chance to collect the jersey.
Philips - Those who watched the whole game yesterday would have seen two very contrasting halves. Sure his second half was pretty fine but the first half was poor. The guy has no urgency at the breakdown and he missed a huge blindside guarded only by two front rowers close to the ruck (7 yards out). He could easily have fed the ball to the wing or made a dart for it himself.
Heaslip - sure best option but I wouldn't mind if Ryan Jones puts his hands up.
Otherwise: Mears, Croft, Jones, Roberts, BOD and Bowe should be good - health permitting.
Those who think Croft was poor last night clearly didn't see him - and that's no bad thing. Think Richard Hill - you rarely saw him but ask anyone who ever played with him and they'd not swap him for anyone else. If you watched closely enough he made some good contributions at ruck time. I admit the pictures we get don't make it easy to pick out numbers on the back of shirts but he did more than he is being given credit for. Not only that his excellent lineout play makes him ideal against the awesome Saffa unit.
Would obvious love to see Martyn Williams play more (versus Wallace who had a reasonable game yesterday - good strength). ROG utterly uninspiring (shame), Shane (Bye).
This is so far my biggest gripe and I will conceed that Geech has won 4 from 4. However, I really wanted (with 30 minutes still to play last night and a 20 to 3 score line) to see Flutey get a decent run with BOD, Blair given a chance behind a reasonable pack and Shaw given a go with POC or AWJ. I thought the same last game. It's nuts bringing D'Arcy out and sticking him on the bench for the majority of the game when we had two centres who either aren't in contention or don't normally play there for the whole game. Give everyone a decent chance in this shortened tour.
Any thoughts? p.s. Can't stand Kaplan and he had another poor performance yesterday.

Benintheslips and Ancientfullback.... both about right in your selections however undecided you are Ancient two wings would be best against the Boks!!!!

Felt compelled to add my view:

toddrudgren: chuffin is not an expletive, don't worry, you don't have to replace the letters with asterisks.

After a great performance against the Lions last week Croft took a step back really last night. However Ryan Jones' decline in form over the last 2 years has been partly due to the Wales Coaches' decision to play him at 6 rather than 8, hence I see litle probability of him making into a Test team at number 6. He's a number 8, deal with it. Also there's no point having a bulkier number 6 if they're going to arrive at the breakdown area slower, so I reckon Croft gets the nod here.

Still fairly bemused by people on here saying Shane Williams should make the wing spot in the Test Team as the others haven't put their hands up; firstly they have, secondly the argument that Shane Williams is IRB player of the year is a redundant one as that was last year and he's not the player he was at the moment. Obviously I'd love to see him return to that form as it would only benefit us but he's had more chances than anyone to stake a claim. There is some truth in that he hasn't been getting the ball, but other wingers would come in field to find work and help out, and when he has got the ball his sidesteps have got him nowhere fast.

The Jenkins/Sheridan debate: people have been speaking about Sheridan's scrummaging technique, I wouldn't use this argument for any other player in the world in any position but his natural strength compensates for his lack of technique; true he's abnormally large for a prop but even Droetske (spelling?) the cheetahs coach said Sheridan was the best player on the park in our recent close-fought win and the difference between the teams. This isn't my english bias, it's what the opposition coach (who used to be a great scrummager) said. HOWEVER Jenkins was clearly reffed out the game last night, even though it was clear he was binding correctly whereas the tighthead was binding on the arm, I agree with comments saying the linesman should've noticed this. Sheridan is also useful around the park contrary to what other posters have said previously, but Jenkins is better so he must start.

Won't bother repeating what everyone else has said regarding POC as it's inconceivable he won't start. Don't really think all the second rows have been given much of a chance to stick their hands up, Hines, Shaw and Alun Wyn Jones all look in better form than the captain but hey ho. Plus would like to see Flutey start at the weekend with D'Arcy; Roberts certainly looks the overwhelming favourite for the Test jersey but Flutey has looked great when he's featured, and there's always the worry the Boks will do a Joe Worsley on Roberts.

Rant over.

I would go with that side except I would play Martyn Williams instead of Heaslip

JustAnotherNumber
Whats wrong wit d comment??

From what i could determine from last night , Gethin Jenkins has to start in the tests , he gave away many penalties but that was down to the referee not recognising the Sharks prop illegal scrummaging. He was at every ruck and was outstanding in defence , his workrate for a front rower is tremendous . Lee Mears is accurate and powerful , has to start . Tight head is still open , Jones is doing nothing wrong but neither is Vickery or Murray .

A.W.Jones is a defonate now , he was outstanding again and even Paul O'Connel praised how good he is and i think these 2 will pair up in the pack.

Last Nights back row is the test back row unless Ryan Jones , Andy Powell and Martyn Williams all have perfect games on saturday if they play . Heaslip was outstanding in the 2nd half and so were the 6 & 7 .

I think the backs pretty much pick themselves . Phillips is a shoo-in at 9. O'Gara kick away possession too often even though some of his kicks did do some good like when Williams and Byrne nearly scored from his cross field kick and therefore Jones i think will wear the 10 shirt.

The centre partnership of Roberts and O'Driscoll has proved highly effective in the first few games and will start in the tests.
Byrnes performances has thrown himself into the full back position with Kearny simply not as good as him even though Kearny is a good player.

Being Welsh i would love to see an all welsh back line but now Halfpenny s injured and i think it would have been impossible to leave out Tommy Bowe anyway and with Monye on form and Fitzgerald looking sharp last night and much more comfortable on the wing than in centre then Williams just hasnt done enough to show hes worth playing in the tests.

To Clarify here is my team for the tests as it stands :

1.Jenkins
2.Mears
3.Jones/Vickery/Murray
4.A.W.Jones
5.O'Connell
6.Croft
7.Wallace
8.Heaslip
9.Phillips
10.Jones
11.Monye
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Byrne

Reading through some comments i feel i have to say soemthing else , being a prop myself i tend to notice what the forwards are doing . And when people say Sheridan is better than Jenkins it absolutely baffles me because people just see Sheridan as big and powerful therefore he must be a good player but in actual fact , hes does nothing outside of the scrum , yes hes a good scrummager but this is because of his natural strength and not his technique . And people who will say that Jenkins conceded penalties last night in the scrum it was wrongly judged by the referee and in actual fact he was not being allowed to scrummage properly because the tight head realised he could not beat Jenkins so he was collapsing the scrum all the time. Jenkins is also going to be in the tests because of his fantastic work rate and his outstanding defence.

Please feel free to comment on my interpretation but i think you'll find im not far wrong

hook or o'gara as sub ??
most peoples choice has jones at 10 come the first test, if so i dont think o'gara will make the bench since hook can cover 10, 12, 13 and 15. the bench is as inportant as the starting 15.

CardiffBoyy13458

I think 90 percent of the people on this thread are in agreement with you, almost everyone has written about kaplan's reffing of the scrum and how jenkins was wrongly penalised, almost everyone has said how much better in the loose Jenkins is and everyone is aware how strong Sheridan is. Not too sure what thread you've been reading.

15 Byrne - the complete article fantastic so far
14 Bowe - selfless in creating chances for others and great finisher
13 BOD - the difference between winning and losing
12 Roberts - real threat and great in defence
11 Kearney - big boot gets him starting place
10 Jones - just better than ROG - decision making and defence
9 Phillips - will keep bok's back row honest, form scrum-half
8 Heaslip - As athletic as Spies with great skills
7 Wallace - great scavaging on the floor and makes hard yards
6 Croft - gutted for ferris, he can do the job
5 A-W Jones - could cause Boks throw some issues
4 O'Connell - building up to a tests nicely - will give it everything
3 A Jones - Biggest unit and playing well
2 Mears - Form hooker deserves to start
1 Jenkins - more than capable scrummager and awesome in the loose

surprising that people are making predictions on the test team this early. do you guys not pay attention to the news? geech said he was leaving it till the last moment before picking his starting xv. regardless of that i reckon i'll throw my team into the mix.

15: bryne - awesome! dissapointing for kearney who's only had 1 game to show his worth so far. if however he has a stormer on saturday and scores tries galore we could have a battle on our hands
14: bowe - excellent set of hands, best winger on the tour by a country mile. i maintain to this day ulster should never have let him go.
13: bod - unreal, can change a game at a moments notice should probably have been captain. if he gets injured i'm afraid to say the tour will be over...
12: roberts - before the tour i had fluety in here but jamie has really should his class over his matches so far. should we all (as lions fans, be concerned that we have heard nothing about his shoulder incident last night)
11: undecided yet no one has really done enough. s williams has probably played himself out of a place but has monye and fitzgerald done enough? monye needs another game before we pencil him in. the race for this test jersey could go right down to the wire.
10: s jones - rog didnt have the best of games last night. i prefer s jones' defense as well
9: phillips - had an awesome game last night. the other 2 scrum halfs' are miles off his quality. this is an area of weakness if mike gets injured
8: heaslip - said this before the tour. fantastic physical presence to have in the pack
7: wallace - would have had williams but his 3 games out with a shoulder injury worries me slightly, either way williams would make a fantastic impact player coming off the bench
6: croft - gutted for ferris as again i would have had him in here. croft is just as good though
5: aw jones - hines has played well but i feel this guys better in the lineout
4: o connell - as captain he really should be playing better i hope he steps up to the plate when the south africans come and regains the awesome form he showed during the 6n. his test place has never really been in doubt
3: murray - easily the best scot inside the last 2 years. people who are suggesting vickery are a tad delusional
2: mears - similar to rees and ford, mears has performed well in the scrum and lineout. shame about flannery
1: jenkins - fantastic all round player. again people suggesting sheridan are clearly watching different matches than i am

thoughts?

p.s on reflection my comments on 1 and 3 may be a bit harsh on reflection, i still stand by the selections though

WillyGilly1990

While I actually agree with your team I find it quite amusing and strange when you say you're surprised people are making predictions about the test team, and how the fact McGeechan won't be announcing the Test team until nearer the team should have an effect on people making predictions. I feel foolish for even discussing this but just because the test team isn't going to be announced until the last minute doesn't mean people can't make predictions on the team. I would say that's weird logic but logic doesn't really apply to your post. The fact that you write your opening paragraph with such authority asking do people not watch the news makes your comments even funnier. Your angle is completely bizarre.

your quite correct what a hypocrite i am...

(hangs head in shame and tears up)

15. Byrne
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Roberts
11. Monye
10. Jones
9. Phillips
8. Heaslip
7. Williams
6. Croft
5. POC
4. Wyn-Jones
3. Vickery
2. Mears
1. Jenkins