Tories tweaking their message

The future national debt will be so enormous that no political party will be able to follow their traditional dogmas in any way whatsoever. Even a Conservative government will end up with 60% or higher income tax and 25% luxury VAT rate within two years, just you see!

BEWARE of snake oil politicians promising understanding and solutions.

BEWARE of LIB/LAB/CON lies.

BEWARE of bent politicians.

Vote outside the LIB/LAB/CON box at the forthcoming general election.

Growth requires leaders with vision and a clear understanding of technologies and markets.

Where are they?

Cutting debt has to be a top priority for whatever government we have for the simple reason that the interest payable makes it ever harder to pay back if the debt becomes too great....and we certainly have a mammoth debt at the moment.

Anyone who has ever had a credit card debt knows that. You end up paying interest on the interest if you're not careful. That's what got us into this position in the first place....too many people overborrowing and not being able to pay their debts...mainly in the overblown housing market but also in our retail sector.

The ideal position is to be sitting pretty on a pile of cash earning you interest....now I wonder which countries are in that position? Ah yes of course...China and the other easteren economies. Also Norway I believe who salted away their profits from oil in the North Sea and are using it to pay peoples' pensions.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Maybe Dave and George could listen to IMF ?

https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d6be81e8-d81a-11de-8b04-00144feabdc0.html

It does not take the sinking of a ship to realise that drilling a hole in the hull is not in the best long term interests of those aboard. Likewise, it should not take a currency crisis to reach the conclusion that accumulating unheard of levels of debt is not in the long term interests of those who will be paying it back.

It is irrelevant whether cutting debt helps of hinders the current recover by a year or several. What should be undestood is that NOT cutting debt will cripple the future of a generation.

#3 Wee-Scamp wrote:

Growth requires leaders with vision and a clear understanding of technologies and markets.

Where are they?

-----------------------

Ans: China!

From snow white denial through the seven stages of co lapse there will be a hole lot of tweaking the tweak going on both sides of the "how now brown sacred cow"

What an absolute load of cobblers from Cameron and his toy poodle!

Growth! Well before we even start of a discussion about what we really mean by growth, we have to define what we want to grow.

From the chin-music given today it sounds more like "let's re-inflate the mess we already have"

To make matters even worse they plan to CUT the public sector without reference to the effects upon society. Even more pain for no good effect.

George Osborne, "We're all in this together!"
(Course we are, George, except for the oligarchs, the Lords and most MP'S!)

Once again the main opposition party engages in twists and turns in their economic and political arguments without having to worry about real consequences.
I fear the proof of the pudding (or mess of potage!) will occur if / when they are elected

Have any of these blokes in either the Conservative party or New Labour who are currently pontificating about the economy ever had a proper job between them ? Caledonian Comment

This is a tough one for the Conservatives: They will probably win the next election and then have to deal with the great Labour deficit. The main problem not seemingly addressed by SF is that the deficit we have is STRUCTURAL - ie even in a growing economy we would not balance the books therefore there MUST be cuts in public expenditure (HOWLS OF PROTEST) since it is overburdening the economy. So David Cameron et al just have to talk tough enough to keep the ratings agencies on their side but not to jeopardise whatever feeble upturn (helped along by various initiatives such as car scrappage scheme) so their ratings remain high.

I wouldnt want to be forming the next government - they'll be unpopular for dealing with the deficit but also unpopular if they dont.

Rock and a hard place come to mind.

But on the issue of tax increases vs spending cuts we need to be careful that we dont continue to pile on the taxes - this is a sure way of stifling any sort of inititives to help set up businesses etc. I am sure that it is unpopular but a progressive cutting of business red tape, quangos and simplifying lots of things will make it easier to reduce numbers in public sector - even if only through 'natural' wastage.

Any thoughts anyone?

addendum to my #8

...oh, and I forgot to ask, guess from which professional background do China's senior leaders come from?

(a clue, it's neither law, accountancy or finance...and btw, I don't include politics or economics as professional backgrounds)

Stephanie said:
"There was also the shakier claim that a weaker exchange rate would help exports fill any gap in demand created by cuts in public spending."

Many of the blue chip British companies have sizeable operations abroad. There is an exchange gain from a weak pound when the profits of foreign operations are translated back into sterling by the British parent company.

However, this does not mean they will employ more UK staff, given that the majority of their operations are located abroad. It may well lead to increased employment abroad.

By contrast, many UK workers are employed by businesses who have foreign parent companies. When sterling is weak, the value of the profits earned by the UK subsidiaries diminish when consolidated by the foreign parent. This could lead to reduced UK employment.

3. At 1:41pm on 23 Nov 2009, Wee-Scamp wrote:

"Growth requires leaders with vision and a clear understanding of technologies and markets.
Where are they? "

....ah any leader with any understanding of the markets would condemn them to history as a mistake - or alternatively be using their position to manipulate them to make money after their political life is over (not mentioning any names).

Politicans don't understand markets in the same way they don't understand unemployment. Didn't you realise our political candidates are made up from the "wet behind the ears" crew from school who were not clever enough to get a proper job.
I mean if there was the tiniest amount of intelligence down at Westminster then some of the questions being asked would be directed at the system of capitalism rather than idiotic manner in which they pick up what they believe is popular (Banking Bonuses or Public spending cuts) regardless of it's relevance to the current crisis.

Ah well, when you elect fools to do the job then what do you expect? I guess it's our own fault for shunning the world of politics leaving it open to the morons who occupy Westminster today.

I mean how stupid do you have to be to:
1) Scam expenses
2) Try to cover up the scammed expenses through the courts
3) Try to justify the expenses scam with legitimate means, during which time either not apologising, or by making it so wooden it's worthless.

That is the measure of our 'elite' - a bunch of numskulls.

I'm with BankSlickerminustheR - I would rather have to fight Nazi's on the streets than be forced to give me vote to one of the 3 'unwise' monkeys who are on offer.

When the BBC reported this morning that 'All parties are competing to show how they are going to bring growth to the UK Economy in the next Parliment' (paraphrase) I realised as no party has a hope of achieving that for some time that the election has literally become a lying championship.

Visiting a newly opened shopping mall yesterday I could see where the growth will come from in the last quarter.

Loads of new shops filled to the brim with Chinese tat. Lots of glitz and bling. I did try hard to find goods made in this country but sadly was unsuccessful.

So nothing has changed. We inport most of what we are now forced to buy.

Even worse we are now printing money to pay for it. So where will it end?

Talk of recovery is temporary while they try to suck out as much of our money as they can for the next couple of months.

All parties are now trying to tone the bad news down for no-one wants to hear it. Too depressing for most to handle.

This is what comes of a recession that is artificially repressed. It just goes on and on. It's only bought time but that time is running out.

11. At 2:33pm on 23 Nov 2009, spareusthelies wrote:

"George Osborne, "We're all in this together!"
(Course we are, George, except for the oligarchs, the Lords and most MP'S!)"

Oh don't worry spareusthelies - George will realise how 'in it' he is when / if he takes over as Chancellor next year.

I find there's nothing to start civil unrest faster than a very rich man telling you how you must pay more money in taxes so as to keep him in the manner to which he be accustomed!

BankSlickerminustheR

If you look at the last 10 years of Labour then in hindsight it we would have been better off without them.

Taking that principle forward maybe, when the number of 'no votes' outweighs the votes taken by political parties then we should demand that the next parliment is a 'no Government' one.

I mean apologies to Emily Pankhurst and Cromwell etc. but the absence of choice for candidacy ensures the right to vote is no longer a valued right. Also the endless 'dumming down' of the electorate ensures that even if there was an ideal to follow that most voters wouldn't understand it and would simply vote for whoever Murdoch, the BBC or the DMG group etc. - tell them to.

My onyly hope is that hungry people think a lot harder about things - and that's where we could be heading under the next Government (whichever one it is)

DC is in great danger of talking himself out of an overall majority by pushing the slash and burn line. He will alienate many floaters who rely on public sector jobs and services and those who see the argument on policies that should not lengthen or exacerbate the recession.

14. At 2:47pm on 23 Nov 2009, EmKay wrote:

"I am sure that it is unpopular but a progressive cutting of business red tape, quangos and simplifying lots of things will make it easier to reduce numbers in public sector - even if only through 'natural' wastage.

Any thoughts anyone?"

Yes - why do these ideas only come from Government once we're in crisis? I'm sure business red tape and quango's have been around for years, but it's only now the politicans can see the savings to be made.
There are 2 options:

1) They are lying, and there are no savings to be made, even closing Quango's has an adverse effect and possibly cost more than they do to run.
2) The Politicians deliberately allow public sector waste to rise during the boom times so they can cut them during bad times and be hailed as heroes.

Either way - they clearly have their own interests at heart and not that of the country - in built self-interest.

16. At 2:49pm on 23 Nov 2009, MrTweedy

Some very good points MrTweedy - however I fear the mumblings coming from the BoE are indicating otherwise.

I suspect the 'grand plan' is to allow inflation to rise, sterling to fall and that way burn off the public debt at the expense of savers.

...and then the Government will need to convince the populus to stop spending so much and save more????

The plan has so many holes in it I thought it was a fish net!

#18 I agree we are sinking in a sea of tat. But I have a solution...you state we are being forced to buy it....we are not. I for one do not buy it and don't intend to. We all have far more than we need and our greed is our undoing.

I agree the government is hell-bent on buying time and one day the chickens will most certainly come home to roost.

....return to growth aka buying stuff from China that we don't need you mean? Only this time rather than borrowing the money to do it, the PM has made it a bit easier for us by turning on the printing presses and getting his sidekick at the BOE to introduce negative interest rates. You couldn't make it up.

I think I have got the wrong end of the stick - when I saw this headline:-
"Party leaders detail growth plans " I immediately assumed this was Economic growth of some sort......

....what it actually is, are the leaders discussing their allotment growing plans, I believe Gordon is planning to do some prize Turnips, Potatoes and Parsnips next year and DC is planning a nice selection of Onions, Shallots and Jerusalem Artichokes. I have heard Nick Clegg is going to go for some purple Broccolli in an effort to make him 'different to the rest'.

However the growing season might be upset when they find out that Gordon is using the Labour party spin machine to produce 'fine quality manure' which is a bit like cheating as they are very experienced - and the Tories are hitting back with a 'Zero Tolerance' policy on Slugs and Snails whilst hoping to cut back every bush, tree and shrub in the garden - to the point where there are only sticks left standing.

The Lib. dems are unfortunately still arguing about whether they should use pesticide or stay organic - their grass roots are organic lovers but if they want to capture the traditional Tory vote they will need to eat into the 'acidic world' of DDT and other such poisons.

So it will be an interesting year in next years 'English Garden' - I'm sure we'll see our fair share of fruits and vegetables and one thing you can always be sure of - everything produced will be rotten to the core.

Happy Gardening!

I am a simple soul , who believes that you should'nt spend what you ain't got and I would not want to inherit the Labour party mess for all the T in China.
I am constantly amazed by the BBC attacks on what can only be a vague idea of Tory policy - at least until they see the books - what with this writer and Mr Robinson on constant sneer I wonder that the Beeb chairman can keep a straight face when he says they are impartial.
As for all the happy bloggers who keep joining in the "praise the lord for Gordon and curses on the Tory party " are they all living in the same ordure as the rest of us?
No more boom and bust - only bust!
According to the OECD we are bottom of the table - even below the wittily coined " Arc of Insolvency" Norway is way ahead of the rest.
The OECD also states that in Europe we beat 'em all for child poverty! We have the greatest number of children living in poverty in Europe.
Makes you proud does'nt it?

24. At 3:30pm on 23 Nov 2009, janchild wrote:

"#18 I agree we are sinking in a sea of tat. But I have a solution...you state we are being forced to buy it....we are not. I for one do not buy it and don't intend to. We all have far more than we need and our greed is our undoing."

Very refreshing to hear a common sense point of view. I have already started repairing rather than replacing items in the house. You will have noticed that cheap imports have to be replaced far more often than a quality hand made product (imported or not)

My motto is "It wasn't my spending that got us into this mess - and it's not going to be my spending to get us out of it!"

#1 a 60% income tax has been tried - it produces less revenue than a 40% tax so is counterproductive, also effectively we already have that on incomes above £150K because of changes to pension rules and NI.

Whilst it may be a question of timing - funny how this is often the case in politics, silly me for thinking it was a rule about comedy - there is no question that public spending needs to be cut by around 15% from its 2007 levels because this lab govt has grossly overspent in good times. Our structural budget deficit before the recession hit was nearly £100 bn. That is not just waste of colossal proportions but a deliberate tactic by lab govt to create lots of people wholly dependent on state (for which read labour) patronage.

In my home town it is estimated that more than 2 out of every 3 working people are on benefits or working for state or local govt or for a company in a pfi scheme (ie wholly dependent on state funding). Now admittedly this is slightly warped due to the fact the town is also the local county town and so has the county council secretariat within its confines but either way we have less than 1 person in private sector supporting slightly more in the public sector (and then having to support the people not of working age such as children and pensioners). This is totally unsustainable, not surprisingly in my home town the aim of most school leavers is to get a job in public sector because that is all they know.

If Tories want growth, then we have to get rid of 20% of govt (local and central) employees. Not matter what people say that will effect front line services, the issue is which services and by how much.

You want growth well here is a summary of what is required

1. Radical changes in tax. Merge income and NI and reduce both to say 20% basic and 35% top rate, but ditch all tax reliefs other than for pensions

2. To pay for it 25% VAT and 10% stamp duty on houses.

3. Cut 20% of govt workforce, close DTI completely and cut MOD (not armed forces) by 75%

4. Change employment laws to allow for sacking back to roughly where they were in 1997 - if they are easy to fire then they are easier to hire. I know this will be rough for some.

5. Education is vital. Teachers should be professional, many particularly members of the NUT are not. But if they are to be professional the public (and pupils) should treat them with the respect that they currently do not get.

6. NHS is the black hole of public finance and ultimately an entirely unviable solution to the provision of public health. Now I agree with the principle that access to medical treatment should not depend on the ability to pay. But very very few countries adopt our solution, we need to scrap the idea that the NHS is a sacred cow and look at what actually works in the rest of the world.

No.23. writingsonthewall wrote:
"I suspect the 'grand plan' is to allow inflation to rise, sterling to fall and that way burn off the public debt at the expense of savers."

I hate to say it, but British savers should have bought equities at rock bottom prices a few months ago. They would have seen double digit capital growth backed up by 6% dividend yield.

I agree with you that a weak currency is not a good idea when a country imports much more than it exports, as it causes imported price inflation. Coupled with a high level of unemployment, this means that British wages will struggle to keep up with consumer price inflation.

Reduced corporate taxes....what a surprise...I'm sure will apply to banks and investment firms. Wouldn't want to burden them with the responsbility for their crimes. We can just have the taxpayer pick this up. Maybe one day someone will have a light go off in their head and realize that it is the daily acts of consumption by the general public that sustains the economy, not this big business and big banking consolidation of wealth. If the economy is to gain any momentum it will take giving the public the funds in some direct manner for them to purchase goods, pay taxes and employ others. In case the economist haven't recognized, giving a lot of money to banks hasn't done a thing but make bankers richer. This is the old Reagan/Thacher trickle down economics and it failed, but has continued support among those who benefit from a concept that benefits the few at the disadvantage of the many. One day the people will regain control of the government....but for now expect more of the same to benefit the wealthy and shift more of the responsbility to the taxpayers. The private sector is not private, it runs the governments....the public is the only class without representation.

Steph

I am struggling to understand your point here...

I am also finding it difficult to understand how 'economic recovery' has slipped into everyday journospeak all of a sudden again. End of a recession (questionable currently anyway) is not the same as an economic recovery....

The country is being propped up by borrowed money and all kinds of subsidies to various parties in hefty amounts. The real estate market is being distorted by foreign investment in housing (particularly London) and the banks' unwillingness to offload commercial real estate which will crystallise huge losses.

If you want to know why there is isn't more finance about its because its stuck on bank balance sheets 'underwater' (not too dissimilar to Japan 90s though I thought we weren't going to make the same mistakes!)

And we've got higher tax coming...

Despite the loud protestations last month I suspect that we will still find 3rd Qtr GDP was still negative (but hey many 'experts' ignored the warning data on the coming credit crunch so why change the habit in reverse?).

Employment isn't higher because of various stop-gap schemes and subsidies which will eventually have to be curtailed (and the public sector is included here).

Take the cue about recovery from small businesses the real bell-weather of economic recovery. Latest CBI data isn't exactly encouraging.

The Tories are between a rock and a hard-place. The real question should be why around 30% of the electorate are still wanting to vote the most catastrophic government in modern times (and probably before) back in?

Am I living in the same country?

Your point about the national debt maybe having an impact or not? Put it this way if we don't get it down we will be paying upwards of £60 BILLION in interest alone in a 2-3 years - you don't think that will have an impact on the nation's growth? And that's in a good scenario?

TALK ABOUT OSTRICH SYNDROME..........are you one of the 30%?

#20 WOTW

As ever, I agree with 99% of what you and many of the other regular posters write.

Democracy is a sham.

Just look at the farce that happened over the EU presidency and foreign secretary 'elections' last week.

Karzai must be laughing all the way the the kazee!

There is no way out of this mess by just cutting. It isn't even a posititve interim strategy.

I keep reading all of these indignant posts complaining that Labour has made a mess of the economy. Well you have to ask what all the moaners were doing whilst Labour were making so much of a mess. I don't remember seeing an alternative economic strategy being promulgated by either of the major opposition parties. I'm not saying that Labour got it right but let us have some truth in the debate the opposition are also culpable as they were not promoting a significantly different set of policies.

As for the CBI, there is a strong argument that they should also face an 'up against the wall' solution along with the bankers. Who was it but the great and good of the CBI who sold British manufacturing down the river over the last 20 odd years with no thought for the long term effect upon the UK economy.

Finally, the great majority of those who are now moaning were more than satisfied as their house values rose and rose over the last 10 years. Before the Credit Crunch very few of the British public were taking any action to reduce their borrowings!

Before we even start to try and define Where we want to be, we need to establish exactly where we are now - and in the proverbial just isn't good enough.

Now its super high bandwidth broadband for all and nuclear power from Gordy and something similar from Dave...

Sad then that we don't make any of the broadband hardware although our EU colleagues in France do... Come to think of it they French are also going to be building our new nuclear power stations because Gordy flogged the only reactor builder we owned to the Japanese about six months before declaring his build nuke policy....

Smart eh!

Both parties will be getting their AAAcountants to round up their horn of plenty

Who ever wins the next election should not worry about what the markets think! Every country in the world at the moment has high public debt. Some like China in theory are all public! So, for simple lack of choise the markets can't do a thing about high public debt, they can sing and dance as much as they like, what are they going to do, buy US dollars? ha ha ha! So, the next government should live it up :) if there is a negative markets reaction to government spending, the gorvernment should tell them to take it easy or we join the EURO :)) problem solved!

#29 justin150,

That is just the typical myopic thinking that will ensure that we will remain in a depresed economy for the next 20 years!

WTF will that growh produce? I'll answer that for you - a major inflationary bubble within an economy that has not developed any sustainable advantage and has no strategic direction. At the same time you will have created a significantly increased number of unemployed and disadvantaged citizens.

...and to top it all up to anyone that thinks that cutting spending now, when will those people wake up from their 1980 sleep? The only two countries that I know that spend money on public work and infrastructure (Australia & China) are both out of recession and are growing wheres countries like us and Iceland that used our public money to save the banks are still stuck in it!

#34 foredeckdave

May I suggest that you are generalising with just a touch of narrow focus?

Those that voted current incumbents in, in 2001 and 2005 perhaps may be showing some signs of personal guilt at being led up the proverbial garden path by some smooth talk that they wanted to believe in?

You are certainly not speaking on behalf of many SMEs.....nor those who have been sensible (i.e. the considerable army of savers).....nor those who never bought in to the 'New Dream ticket'nonsense ....

Bearing in mind that the UK has lost a great deal of Brown’s bloated bank growth - just where exactly is the 'growth' going to come from?

Does Brown know that much of the 'bloated UK banking non-dom infested cash cow finance sector' income isn't there and is also unlikely to 'recover' except in a totally mismanaged UK economy?

Does Brown really think that attracting more raids on the UK from more foreign investors (he proposes more Chinese businesses in the UK), will benefit Britain?

The Chinese already have a 'strangle-hold' on the UK in terms of a huge trading surplus with the UK - Why should 'they' invest more money in the UK when they already have just what they want - their supply chains and logistics can easily expand to saturate the UK with their exports as part of an 'eventual' global recovery, without starting any new UK business.

Incredibly naive, as usual, Mr Brown!

The problem with politicians talking about growth is that they concentrate too much on the changes in overall amount but ignore the structure of 'growth' - if this is analysed it is clear that a huge part of the UK's GDP figures are government spending and other spending that does not grow the underlying real economy - much of the UK's GDP figures relate to monies and transactions outside of the UK with little if any real benefit to the UK.

Britain can do better with smaller GDP amounts if the UK money supply is spent 'properly' - with incentives for those investing in UK plc. What matters most for growing a sustainable UK economy, I think, includes:

- Raising UK sustainable output/ productivity in high demand products- food, energy, products as well as 'services'
- reducing unemployment
- Investment in green sustainable businesses trading both internally to the UK and externally
- Incentives for companies re-investing in the UK
- Population control (that means incentives via the tax system etc and not mass euthanasia for the 'surplus')

Does Brown really think the Chinese are going to rush in to the rescue? If he does, he must be completely 'cuckoo'!

Many people in the UK do not wish to work for the Chinese - they want a suitable UK trading environment giving priority and assistance for those British companies with an 'employment multiplier effect' with a minimum of regulation - but with sensible regulation and with British workers having priority for jobs in their own nation and British companies re-investing British profits in Britain and not just in e.g. China - it means Sustanomics and not Brown's 'Bustanomics'

I guess its easy to blame the Govt for this mess but really what were we all doing.

Gloating at dinner parties how much our property was worth?

Racking up Credit card debts in the thousands

Buying the latest must haves - on credit

Not being able to see over the horizon that this could not go on indefinately.

Im not a Labour party member and i think they could have done better in many areas, but continually blaming them is like being in hospital, messing in the bed, and then having a go at the nurse who has to come and clean it up.

We need to all take reponsibility for this mess and the sooner we do the quicker we may be able to get through it.

Lots of simplistic proposals / propositions made on these political / economic blogs...unfortunately there is no simple solution other than the one we all know...the people who weren't responsible for this mess are going to be the ones that suffer because of it..those that caused it won't....

What might help however is less talk about continually targeting public sector employees as a needless drain on the public purse. For a start, the majority will be earning less than the average UK wage...but most of them will be paying at least 30% of their income to the State in taxes....plus another bundle in indirect taxes. In effect, public employees heavily subsidize their own employment. Of course, if people prefer them to stop doing this and move onto benefits instead.......

I doubt if there is any 'grand scheme' that will sort out the economic mess...most likely any such scheme will worsen the situation. So maybe lots of small schemes might be the way forward.

As an example, I know several people that would like to try running their own business..even as sole traders. But most are too apprehensive to go down that route.....they recognize that they are exposed to numerous people and organizations that can demand money off them irrespective of how well they are doing.....with no safety net if things don't work out.

One small step in the right direction could be a total change of attitude towards new start up businesses.....maybe with guaranteed tax free trading periods initially...decent start-up grants even.

Another small step would be tackling the default retirement age. Every year tens of thousands of older workers are made redundant purely because of their date of birth....it's called compulsory retirement. If these workers had not been discriminated against it is probable that there would be a lot fewer pensioners and a lot more tax payers.

It would be a simple matter to amend this bit of legislation to remove the age related discrimination and immediately allow more people to continue in employment.

I could go on with more examples of small initiatives that would have a positive impact. Most readers here probably have their own examples. It's the way forward....

#34 foredeckdave

In answer to your question establish where we are now? I would have thought that it is obvious - its in the S***. Big and its getting bigger.

Just a note on a number of comments on here and also in the media. Economies at ground level are more resilient than we think.

Can somebody just explain that if we do cut PS jobs that we can't pay for exactly how damaging is that versus prolonging the agony by borrowing more and more to sustain the unsustainable?

I know of no other scenario where this would be acceptable?

It seems to be yet another scaremongering propogation. The economy has to balance otherwise we end up in a bankrupt zombie status.

There's an old saying of 'never pour more money after bad in the hope of recovering it' (and of course the other old 'double or quits'). Of course plenty ignore this and do it on the stockmarket, in fact any type of market speculation.

Why is the nation state so different when it comes to financing?

If people want to continue to see more tax money being pumped in may I suggest that you put forward that you are ok with personally paying 80-90% tax rate to pay for it if you think that it is that good (though I think its a good deal more than that) because I certainly don't......

Has anyone else noticed that George Osbourne's nose looks a bit like a bum?

When will people realise that putting people out of work to save money is not a good government stategy? Tax goes down, spending goes down and benefits go up. An effective cut has to reduce non labour spending preferably on things made abroad: ie Trident, Weapons, hospital equipment, Offices, modernisation, computer systems, cars and other vehicles. Yes these may also cause unemployment but hopefully the majority will be abroad. Reduce wages by all means (if you dont mind the strikes) but keep employing people. High technology computerised society only works in a socialist state where we are all paid not to work. Or is it called the welfare state?

43. At 5:14pm on 23 Nov 2009, alanfrench wrote:
"I guess its easy to blame the Govt for this mess but really what were we all doing.

- Gloating at dinner parties how much our property was worth?
- Racking up Credit card debts in the thousands
- Buying the latest must haves - on credit
- Not being able to see over the horizon that this could not go on indefinately. "

Speak for yourself, Alan. I did none of the above. But now my hard-earned savings/pension are going down the pan. It IS the government's fault, and it makes me furious.

Actually GO and DC remind me of the kids from the Posh School who would shout things at us "Comp Plebs" but run a mile when things got tough and they thought they may actually have to back up those words with actions.

You want someone to blame for all this, blame Thatcher and "her children" with their greed is good mantra.

*46 Ha ha ha ha god one!

46: Very amusing. But I can't understand how the moderators thought it was either on-topic or acceptable. (Or AAAcceptable as "Spartacus" would put it).

Al: Paying people large salaries, plus tax, NI, pensions, etc. to do public sector things that don't really need doing is much more costly than paying them a pittance to be unemployed. Unfortunately, as there is too little real wealth being generated in this country, the government is going to have to go for the cheaper option. It is going to hurt...

It is hurting in the provate sector too. Jobs are being sent off-shore now, which means there will be even less wealth to be spread around. Believe me, this is just the beginning.

We have to learn as a country to produce as much as we consume. Somewhere else on this blog, a poster pointed out that Australia is managing to rebuild its economy. If you go to Australia and observe, you will see why that is: they produce much of what they consume, and the rest is carefully balanced - exports vs imports. They consume their own farm produce - meat, fruit, veg. The have their own car industry, and most people drive Holdens. They make their own entertainment - outdoor pursuits. They have to do this because they have a pretty small population, and they need to be self-starting and self-supporting.

Here in the UK we don't produce quite enough to export. Other countries don't need our classrooms, hospitals, arts coordination, social services, VAT inspectors, etc., etc. And now they don't want our financial services either. Or our armed forces or civil servants and local authorities.

Bertram im a firm beliver in the pendulum effect. A swing violently in one direction ie financial meltdown needs to be countered by an equally violent swing. The Govt didn't run Northern Rock, RBS etc in fact they were always being criticised by the Tories for too much city regulation.
Havent heard GO and co squeaking on about that lately.

If the Tories had of been in power they by their own admission would have left it to the "Markets". You think your badly off at the moment, god forbid what would have happened under that lot, 6m-7m unemployed? Civil unrest?
I think Labour have done the best they can, of course they/ve made mistakes but most people seem to be carrying on (Albeit nervously- and furiously paying off as much debt as they can- i know i am).

Maybe next year will be really bad but i think not as bad as it could have been wiyhout QE and the fiscal stimulous this has brought.

As for those here who wish to trash the Civil Service, that would leave us up whatsit creek without a paddle, many companies trade with Govt instutions and for every CS redundancy, add another private sector one from a Govt supplier.

*51
"Here in the UK we don't produce quite enough to export. Other countries don't need our classrooms, hospitals, arts coordination, social services, VAT inspectors, etc., etc. And now they don't want our financial services either. Or our armed forces or civil servants and local authorities"
Bertam you obviously love Mrs T so Ask Thatcher what she did with our manufacturing base - many of us would like to know!

Nobody here as got as much of a clue as Gordon and Dave, have they?

All we get is the same old round of self-interest: but then that is what passes for policy in the UK.

The reality of New Labour was to expand the state on the back of profits generated by the City. They got so far into this strategy that they allowed the real economy of widgets and buttons to decay as the factories moved eastwards at the rate of knots. Now the City is only manufacturing debt and there is no bread to feed the public sector pigeons.

There is no answer to the problem of a bloated state sector other than to cut it down to suit the available cloth.

The argument that by encouraging growth in the real economy the funds will be generated to increase the amount of available cloth is theoretically fine but a lot of the factories we once had have gone to China and their staff, if lucky, are wearing peaked hats, carrying clipboards and ticking boxes. We don't have the means to just turn of the taps to `have growth'. Even if we manage to pull off that trick it will be years before we dent the deficit.

So public sector cuts are on the cards, whoever gets returned to government. The fact that none are saying that tells you all you need to know about them. I can remember the time when the Spinners were a folk group: nice bunch too!

I think we need to move this debate to a more fundamental level and ask what sort of an economy we really need? It has to be an economy that adds value for the simple reason we have over 60 miilion mouths to feed. So how do we go about that eh? We need a trained and qualified workforce, not media studies graduates. We need to get our agricultural sector working. We need to identify how the country can mobilise its natural resources. We need to cherry-pick technologies that will give us a leading edge and seek to maintain that position. These are just a few ideas to start with: no doubt others will ahve there ideas.

Then once we have derived an idea as to what sort of economy we need then we have to determine those public policies to create what we need. Currently public policy is focussed on delusions with a management devoted to sustaining those fantasies. It is time to stop all that which to me sounds like a good place to start cutting the state sector back. We could use the money saved to finance start up businesses to create the growth and the added value we so desparately need.

One thing: we ain't going to solve the mess we are in with waffle, a few tax rises and some trimming of budgets. It is time for some realism back up with hard nosed radicalism. it is time to get the country back to work: the dream-time is over.

David Cameron is a former marketing man therefore his method leans toward style over content. As for George Osbourne a man who has had no job of any real weight in his life up to this point, I have even less confidence. I do not doubt their sincerity however I feel they have a lack of something more important. Belief!
They play their cards far to close to their chests when it is time to reveal their complete economic strategy and make us believe.

Good work RugbyProf. Just what the doctor ordered.

The Guardian Poll has to be Socialist distortion of the figures at the behest of Lord Mandelbrot. Can the voters really be that stupid?

Steph, you say:

Until you could see signs of panic in the markets over UK debt - and we haven't seen many yet - it was that much harder to argue that deficit cuts were priority number one.

As many posters have pointed out no investors are net buyers of UK debt. The only method of purchase has been through Quantitive Easing. Stop QE and then you will see "signs of panic in the markets over UK debt".

You are too complacent about the market implications of excessive borrowing, in my opinion.

The markets know that we have an election next summer, and expect the Tories to win it. That's why there's been no run on British debt. If the Tories don't win - or if there's a hung Parliament - sterling will drop like a stone and interest rates will have to be jacked up sharply in an effort to avert a sterling crisis. How will THAT help the economy?

Its nice to see the Conservatives reshaping their economic policy, perhaps thinking rather than crowing for a change. Still, if it remains party policy to spin a panic over the National Debt then nothing significant has changed.

After the First War, between 1921 and 1941, unemployment in Britain never fell below 10% and, in the early thirties when much of the rest of the world hit the slump, unemployment peaked well over 20%.

The reason for this was a persistent belief in the creed of fiscal rectitude. The creed George and Dave, apparently unaware of our own economic history, either follow or wish us to believe they follow.

It's one of those beliefs that are easily communicated to the electorate and sound convincing: Mrs Thatcher sold it through an analogy with good housekeeping. Several bloggers here apparently believe it implicitly.

It is however dangerous nonsense when translated into national economic policy and there is no excuse for not understanding this.

This difference in economic policy shouldn't be reported simply as a difference in emphasis or timing. It demonstrates a completely different level of economic understanding between them and, in my view, unless modified, leaves the Conservatives clearly planning to engender mass unemployment through (same old) cuts in expenditure on the public service.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of paying down the National debt when the economy grows (as it will, but only if nursed). It's just that to panic over it now is fundamentally wrong. When I was at sea I used to insist the day workers kept the brass on the control boards polished (look, there's lots of good reasons, just don't get me started) but the time the pump room flooded I stopped worrying about it. Anyway, there is no need to worry about attracting funds to the Treasury - if there was a problem do you think Ireland, Lithuania etc would be afloat still?

Its a bit like sitting in a boat with a leak. Its a stupid waste of energy bailing it out until you stop the leak. Similarly we need to engender growth in the economy before we reduce the deficit.

Sorry, but Conservative economic policy still looks far too dangerous.

56. gruad999:

Yes, it's QE. The deficit is predicted at £175bn this year, and the DMO needs to raise £220bn. At £200 bn, QE is right in the middle of that range (and actually exceeds the deficit).

The Bank claims that they aren't monetising debt (which is illegal under the Maastricht treaty anyway) because they are purchasing existing gilts. But this is specious - they are buying gilts from institutions which need a proportion of their funds in gilts, so therefore go straight out and buy new ones.

So yes - in my view, government is printing the deficit. What a shambles.

At 2:39pm on 23 Nov 2009, rhinos25 wrote:

Once again the main opposition party engages in twists and turns in their economic and political arguments without having to worry about real consequences.
I fear the proof of the pudding (or mess of potage!) will occur if / when they are elected
------
Rhinos25 - I fear even more if enough of the population choose to vote for the current morons again. The fact that 25% of the population would choose to vote Labour even after the mess which the current government have got us into (and it is not the greedy bankers, as nuLabour would have you believe, it is virtuallt entirely the incompetence of the current government) speaks volumes for the sheer pig-headed ignorance of conventional Labour supporters.

I see it is back to Tory V Labour and who would cut the most, or cut the least, or cut the soonest, or cut the latest, or cut the shortest, or cut the longest.

This subject was fully covered a long time ago: "All over people changing votes, along with their overcoats, and if Adolf Hitler flew into today they'd send a limousine anyway" Joe Strummer.

Why not tell the people why no-one is being investigated for criminal conspiracy? Why not explain exactly what high frequency trading is or dark pool trading - just so everyone can see how things are working out in their best interests, and see that politicians are working tirelessly to advance the interest of the people.

Or how about explaining how changing the accounting rules purely to allow banks to hide and to obsficate their unerLYING financial positions is beneficial, and to whom it is beneficial.

Why are politicians so coy? Think of all the votes that be won: "I support dark pool trading because..." "I support the suspension of the law in relation to oligarchs because..." "I think fraudulent accounting is beneficial to everyone because..."

The political classes and their media cheerleaders are betting that the population is completely stupid. If you vote for any of them you will have proved up their hypothesis. If that happens they will just raise the stakes next time around.

Back the winning party - vote Raving loony, because that is all you are going to get in all circumstances.

Well we do have the basis for a lively debate!

#54 stanilic, "I think we need to move this debate to a more fundamental level and ask what sort of an economy we really need? ......" I totally agree with what you have written. The problem is that fundementals are not so discrete e.g. the eco/political slavery towards globalisation.

IF we are going to answer the question then all contributors need to take off the blinkers and set to the task with honesty.

Right then Pyke, have you got the map.

Yes Captn Mainbearing, its here.

Right Pyke have you checked out what the man down at the takeaway said.

Yes Captn Mainbearing, it is right, the Isle of Wight is the same size as Hong Kong. So 7 million can live there if needed. But Captn Mainbearing it would need devlopment Sir, and there are sites of special scientific importance.

Perfect Pyke that will do as the staring point. Now when is the Terracotta Army coming to help us ---- Don't worry about the development bit, its a national security issue, the chaps are setting up a special planning panel, be in no time. Side step all these people who dont recognise need. 400 factories with a terracotta badge. That'll sort it.

Doh, Doh, You have only just invited them Captn Mainbearing.

Oh yes Pyke I forget it was only yesterday I got that secret message in the fortune cookie.

Yes Captn Mainbearing. Theres just one thing I dont understand ...

Well Pyke, come on .... Come on Pyke we dont have all day, come on.

Er Er well Captn Mainbearing .. I thought they were undermining us with there secret weapon TAT. There has been ship loads of it arriving for a long time.

Sh. Sh. Pyke -- That was only a cunning plan. They are coming to help us. They are better than the other lot on the continent.

Capt Mainbearing, why is that.

Better food Pyke, better food. Now where is that other fortune cookie. Something about a Trojan Horse, I must try and decode that message as well.

Now I must send a fortune cookie to that chap who has all the shops and who has been saying Polish food is selling well again, he'll need to get something else in as well.

Look at the rise in gold and realise that that is where the smart money is going and will continue to do so until we are through this mess - maybe for the next 3-5 years. Shame we sold ours at rock bottom isn't it! It would be worth billions more now
Nevertheless, sterling is only in the shape it is because the markets believe that the tories will win. I cannot understand how anybody could possibly vote Labour nowadays - it's all lies and spin and they are found out every few days. Another 5 years of Brown is enough to send you over the edge.
I suggest we use QE to buy gold - and prompto. Do it quietly though - don't tell the markets Gordon unlike when you sold ours and when you announced the sale of the IMF gold after the London conference. That way we may be able to make a bit back and save ourselves rather than killing the economy for years to come.

54. stanilic

Arh, yes Stan, economic liposuction, thats good for the economically overweight. Only keyhole surgery needed, quick and painless no sign later. all these modern tricks.

#52 alanfrench

It would be good if you could back up your claims with some evidence otherwise your postings are better served on a football blog......

52 alanfrench

Thats very much a game of two halves to me, that post.

16 percent of the civil service work for the MOD, yet they can deliver skis to the desert and spend 140+ million on modifying tanks that end up no good for the theatre of war. The British Empire was run with a tiny fraction of the number of civil servants. Doesnt that seem a little odd. Last gem I read was one lot went into Iraq with 5 rounds each and body armour for the lads at the front and rear. They were lucky there wasnt a massacre. Then there is the 'cut and shut' helicopter, and the plane with not foam in the wing tank, against all advice, that got hit.

Are you really saying that the MOD is unique in the way it works, and all other department are just fine. Well I can tell you they are not.

#66 Rubyprof,

Little bit of a second row comment! Exactly the same charge can be made for your posts!

61 arm n leg

Yes I have concluded that Number 10 is really a Tardis. On GE day the door will close the whirr will begin and the New TimeLord will emerge. New appearance, same ol' mind set. Can I have a sick note Doctor. Whirr whirr. I dont think I have ever been so fed up. Doing terrible well but on Planet Mad. Douglas Adams book says I should stick a fish in my ear but I can't find it.

#27 "The OECD also states that in Europe we beat 'em all for child poverty! We have the greatest number of children living in poverty in Europe.
Makes you proud does'nt it?"

You've not mentioned that we also lead in the number of teenage pregnancies and binge-drinking !! The next growth industry will be the alcohol producers !!

IMHO all current parties/leaders will solve nothing ... for the following reason ... https://poweromics.blogspot.com/2009/07/big-questions-too-hot-to-handle.html

and I also agree with many of the posts here (e.g. 2 - BankSlickerminustheR, 20 - writingsonthewall, 31 - ghostofsichuan just to name a few - but there are many more) ...

What garbage politicians come out with, and what a vacuum in ideas they have. The do not not how to cut, and they do not know how to grow ... what a 'state' we're in!

David Clift

I was informed about a quango this morning, where the office manager buys a shopping basket full of fruit twice a week for all the staff to munch on at will. The cost of this is put on the expenses; and whilst I appreciate this is a relatively small amount, it perhaps does highlight how these organisations are chucking the money down the drain.

This particular quango is designed to get young people into work, but mainly spends their time taking telephone calls from individuals complaining that they haven't received their free welfare payments!

I was made redundant six months, now set up on my own, working way past the typical 9-5. So I'm not sorry to demand that the public sector jobworths who spend their days moving paper from one part of an office to another should be removing into the private sector and employed to manufacture items. Perhaps we could get them making Austin Allegro's again, because the mess of the UK socially and culturally, we are going backwards.

It verges on breathtaking as to how many individuals are oblivious to the economic shambles that is unfolding.

Now if a politician stepped forward and said "I'll be PM, and to prove I'm doing it for the love of the UK, just pay me £20,000 per year" Politics is so self-indulgent.

Any interested political party should be publishing a clear strategy as to how they are going to deal with this crisis. They should stand up and lay out plans on which to hang their hat on. None of this ambiguity as spouted by Cameron.

The blood is simmering, the establishment needs....lets say, refreshing!

The Tories care about recovery only to the extent that:

* they can be seen to care about the great unwashed
* they can convince middle Britain that they care
* they can convince the Electorate that they wish to support the recovery and do nothing to undermine it enought to seize power
* it serves the interests of people who are like them

Thereafter, only as and how they consider it serves their strategic long term goals and interests. The truth is that they feel they can use the economic crisis to:

* blame Labour for all society's ills for a generation
* steam ahead with a hardline right wing agenda of small government
* systematically destabilise and dismantle the welfare state to the extent that bringing in socially irresponsible welfare models from the USA and other right wing so-called democracies become vaguely viable propositions
* continue their long history of failing to take responsibility for anything at all, and become increasingly remote and detatched from the vast majority of people on these islands

They may be wearing sheeps clothing - or be seen to be wearing sheeps clothing - but the Tories are more wolfish than ever

66 rugbyprof

Talking about sport, as Wigan refunded the cost to the abysmal game they gave to individuals. My vote is that the current league of gentlemen in Westminster refund all who have paid for their game.

Quoted from the end of the following Telegraph article...

Lord Turner interview: Time for truth, Adair and consequences
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6630540/Lord-Turner-interview-Time-for-truth-Adair-and-consequences.html

...Turner rejects suggestions he should act as a cheerleader for the City and gives those views short shrift.

"The idea that financial services is at the heart of an economy that needs it is very important. There is nothing that I have said that says all that goes on in finance isn't valuable.

"The thing I've stressed is that there are particular sub-sets of what went on, such as the trading activity in credit derivatives, that was overblown," he says.

"Some of it is valuable and useful to society. But you've got to have that thought without believing that everything that happens is by definition valuable. And unless you're willing to deal with that subtlety of the argument, you're not dealing with the real world as it really is."

---------------------------

This guy really is the master of understatement!

71 leanomist

'What garbage politicians come out with, and what a vacuum in ideas they have. The do not not how to cut, and they do not know how to grow ... what a 'state' we're in!'

I am afraid it is a State of Mind. There probably will be a Thought Police soon.

All rational arguement seems to have no effect, you cannot reason with the unreasonable, and distinguishing between - what is said for effect - and what is intended - or what is planned to be put in place as a flagship programme then abandoned in a matter of months - is virtually impossible.

I had a brief wobble of sympathy yesterday for our leader then you corrected me, today all sympathy evaporated. I then was begining to have nostalgia for the period when a cowboy actor whose co star was a monkey could become a president.

#44 "Lots of simplistic proposals / propositions made on these political / economic blogs...unfortunately there is no simple solution other than the one we all know...the people who weren't responsible for this mess are going to be the ones that suffer because of it..those that caused it won't...."

Such is the nature of the beast. Many bloggers proposed simplistic solutions to complex problems that are very similiar to those by this government. It's so symptomatic of the "quick fix" generation !!

Foreign traders are shorting gilts.

Democracy is theatrics for the debt-ridden.

It's considered wasteful to leave lightbulbs on around the house. A 60W bulb here a 40W bulb there, it all adds up to kilowatt-hours.

You can buy LED lighbulbs that consume 2W, and put our the equivalent of 15W. Four of these in array would consume 8W and appear as a 60W bulb. The initial outlay is fairly high, but over time there is a saving and the lifetime of these bulbs is long.

When your house has 8W per light instead of 60W per light and produces the same amount of illumination, you can happily leave your lightbulbs on if you feel like enjoying that luxury.

75 BankSlickerminustheR

Yes I saw him 'live' if that is what it is called on the telly today saying pretty much that line by line. Looked very rehearsed. I find it quite amazing at times. You would never believe these guys where around when the Black Pig hit the Northern Rock.

#51 "...The have their own car industry, and most people drive Holdens..."

FYI, Holdens are either second-hand Ford or Mazda designs !! Holden is 100% owned by Ford and Mazda is 25% owned by Ford !!

One of the problems with gold is that when times get tough your neighbour has a clear incentive and position for an attack to seize your wealth.

Has there been a period of relative peace because of nuclear weapons, or because of floating exchange rates and fiat money? The wars most fresh in our minds are where oil is - the black gold behind the USD. Is this a coincidence?

The Conservatives - economic recovery? After the devastation caused by the the Thatcher/Howe economic miracle (getting rid of heavy industry) how anyone can trust the Conservatives with anything except extermination of what is left beats me.

#52 "...many companies trade with Govt instutions and for every CS redundancy, add another private sector one from a Govt supplier."

It's called "swallowing your own tail" !! No real wealth is actually produced; just spent !! Carried to its ultimate end, it will disappear up its fundament !!

#68 fordeckdave

what's up with the front row?

Gordon the elephantAAA'sist in the room is waiting for the green bAAAmboozle shoots in exchange for a pAAAt on the head.

The question for some is Gold really an investmenet hedge against harder times or is it simply another commodity market that investors trying to seek alpha returns by the herdful?

One would have thought that price may be driven more by trading rather than fundamentals. If my memory serves me right Gold has actually only gone up by some 2% pera annum in the past 70 years (i.e. in line with inflation) thus it is not a long term investment (though we managed to sell at the trough end of course).

Back to the main story -

We gotta increase taxes when we should be cutting them.
We are overloaded per capita with public sector v private sector. The economic outcome is harsh whether you keep the spend or cut the spend.

Economic recovery has a rocky road in the UK as imbalances everywhere.

It's tough whatever we choose........

#54 "We need a trained and qualified workforce, not media studies graduates."

Don't knock it !! You might get Surfing and Beach Management graduates instead !! :-)

"We need to get our agricultural sector working."

It *IS* working !! It's just that their workers are all imported, too. So, perhaps the problem there is to get British agricultural workers working !!

#74 glanafon

I thought that the fans had great entertainment. Ten goals - that's one every ten minutes and even an own goal by Spurs I understand. Given Wigan's scoring record I reckon that's about five games worth (My apologies for any Wigan fans out there) -

At least it's still not as bad as Ipswich 9-0 thrashing by Man U back in the 90s as some have pointed out........(my apologies for any Ipswich fans out there). End of football comment.......

#74 "Talking about sport, as Wigan refunded the cost to the abysmal game they gave to individuals."

Oi !! *I* thought it was an excellent game !! Spurs 9, Wigan 1 !! Wey-hey !! :-)

49 alanfrench

''You want someone to blame for all this, blame Thatcher and "her children" with their greed is good mantra.''

'Her children' are Gordon Blair. Didnt you see the welcome home for the Baroness at Number 10 today.

#79 "When your house has 8W per light instead of 60W per light and produces the same amount of illumination, you can happily leave your lightbulbs on if you feel like enjoying that luxury."

Yeah but will it make good spin ?? That's what matters anyway !! Who cares about engineering and scientific calculations.

82 FrankSz. Gold tells an interesting story to those who are willing to listen.

Larry Summers certainly knows the story that gold can tell that is why he is so keen to silence it. But it will not go away, like a lighthouse in fog it flashes its barely seen warning signals to all who have eyes to see.

Check out the claims that GATA make about gold. Think through the implications if they are correct. Remember that China paid for consultancy with GATA. Recall what the Chinese said about gold shortly afterwards.

8,000 tonnes of gold have left the US since 2007. Ask why.

Gold protects against inflation, but we have no inflation so why is gold rising. Gold also warns of systemic meltdown. So if it is not warning about inflation what is it warning about, and why is Larry Summers so interested in the price of gold.

Hmm let me think. No on second thoughts I'll follow the advice of the BBC and think about whether Gordon Blair has a nicer tie than David Cameron. After all what chance do you have against a tie and a crest

68 foredeckdave

Are you back in Grate Britian or still in hurricane alley.

69 glanafon. You are looking at the wrong things. Once you accept that the political apparatus has been entirely captured by the oligarchs there is no need to have any further interest in conventional politics.

# 77. At 8:24pm on 23 Nov 2009, ishkandar wrote:
#44 "Lots of simplistic proposals / propositions made on these political / economic blogs...unfortunately there is no simple solution other than the one we all know...the people who weren't responsible for this mess are going to be the ones that suffer because of it..those that caused it won't...."

Such is the nature of the beast. Many bloggers proposed simplistic solutions to complex problems that are very similiar to those by this government. It's so symptomatic of the "quick fix" generation !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, Ishkander, I think the problem isnt that the solutions to the present predicament are complex, - they arent - its that they are almost politically unacceptable because they are DIFFICULT for any democrat party to implement because it will make the UNPOPULAR - ie cutting costs, raising taxes, finding windfalls to get us out, reorient our economy towards manufacturing high value products and changing the mindset of mindless consumerism the majority of the populace possess.

I've written it before and I'm sure I'll write it again - but the problem with politicians is they have a short time span and the election is always looming over their horizon so they have to try and find ways of doing difficult things without losing that support (or like Labour, not bothering and chucking money at the public sector while times are good). I would vote for a politician who would say 'All I can give you is blood, toil, sweat and tears..' Now that's leadership (ooh I think this has already been said!)

#81

Neither here nor there who owns Holden, but I think it is GM. No mater who owns them the State they are manufuctured in offers incentives to GM to keep the factory there. So, its not as simple as everyone buys Holden, the reason there is Holden to be bought in the first place is because the State government offered incentives to keep it there. That I think is more important than who owns them :) If we were to do the same thing here you'd have the "free market" fanatics screaming "state support bad! Take it away, we understand it will cause some pain now we are sorry, but ideology is more important than real jobs"

95 arm n leg

I heard saw a bit about the Pope and Archbishop meeting to discuss which shepherd would cover which flock etc and it all seems errily familiar with a few floating voters moving about. World without end to the End of Days. Or should that be end of daze.

Well my main effort goes into business as I have to have Plan B and Plan C in a world of jello. Yet some seem to go on regardless. And although you get pithy comments about where are the solutions, if you give them they dont want them.

I think the Golgafrincham Party will win the election with the slogan 'Follow us to the Ends of the Earth'.

Think Labour, think waaater under the bridge game ,think cockermouth

Think Pat Robertson the evangalist told to go forth and multiply elswhere a decade ago by RBS, THE NATIONS FAVOURITE MILLSTONE caaargo cult .

THINK SODOM AND GOMOCRACY

Think judgement day

Think of the horsemen of the AAApocalapse

Think Automaticaly Readjusting Mortgages ageddon

97 ChrisArta

'Neither here nor there who owns Holden, but I think it is GM. No mater who owns them the State they are manufuctured in offers incentives to GM to keep the factory there. So, its not as simple as everyone buys Holden, the reason there is Holden to be bought in the first place is because the State government offered incentives to keep it there. That I think is more important than who owns them :) If we were to do the same thing here you'd have the "free market" fanatics screaming "state support bad! Take it away, we understand it will cause some pain now we are sorry, but ideology is more important than real jobs"'

Not quite as clear cut as that. In the EU there was substantial manufacturing capability in a some countries. EU money was then granted to enable other countries to build brand new factories where there had never been any, and the companies involved could then take lower paid workers off the land or out of cafes and train them to work in the brand new factory. Overcapacity in the EU resulted (which is still there) and surprise surprise - the older facilties with the more expensive workers then entered decline. The EU then also thought it would be a good idea if state support or intervention ended as it is not 'competitve'. This is not a level playing field. And I am fed up of hearing that it is supposed to be. UK car plants can work as effectively as anywhere else if they have the chance, as Nissan has shown. Despite overcapacity however has not stopped Hungary also getting help to set up a Suzuki facility I believe.

In many cases it is clear that you are best off following rather than leading at a critical stage and then getting a helping hand.