BA: A strike is the least of its worries

BA = Bloody Awful

It is, without doubt, the worst airline in the world...good riddance to it is what I say!

OK...Virgin might be slightly worse!

There was an interesting BBC piece on John Lewis, and how it was set up for the benefit of managers and workers, a profitable co-op with long term aims.

BA seems the antithesis of this: staff v management/absent shareholders. As ever the only people that will ultimately lose is the customer, who will over a longer timeframe, ensure that the staff and management will lose their jobs when BA goes under due to poor sales.

Welcome to stupid street, UK style.

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What we are witnessing is the end game.
Unions, rightly or wrongly, are going to get the blame.
Things change. The business has changed.
Flag carriers can no longer survive as they used to be.
BA was sold off cheaply with this in mind.
If the pension black hole was to be properly covered by the company then the shareholders would lose everything.
So they got the failing airline on the cheap and will now squeal like stuck pigs when they get stiffed by the pension after they stiff the unions.
Nothing changes then..

If BA has sufficient cash to absorb the strike why is it unable to lower the pension shortfall?

First, I am not involved at all in this dispute, so I have no axe to grind - yet.
RP's blog and all previous TV statements issued by Mr Walsh over the last 2 years show, quite clearly, as was articulated concisely yesterday on TV by a professor of industrial relations, that the culture within BA management is "macho, kill the opposition, and there is only 1 - my - solution, with respect to their staff.
As said by the professor, it is imperative that, whatever happens during this dispute, afterwards BA people continue to be seriously proud of working for BA, and put their every gram of energy into providing the excellent standard of customer service on which the company depends for its very existence within its market. It is therefore sure, as night follows day, that Mr Walsh, even if he kills the trade union, fires all the staff involved and replaces them with others, will be left with a company that will be dead by suicide within 2 years. Mr Walsh's demeanour during his 20 second appearance on TV on Friday looked to me like paranoia had set in, and I was shocked and very sad to see it.
Time for both parties to get back to win-win negotiations - and now.
As for my not having an axe to grind, this will definitely change if there is a serious loser in this battle.

Hon Peston blog without a single mention of "bank" or "bonus"?! - a step in the right direction, that's good.

Shame it doesn't really say anything of value though.

It's poor managers as usual and I support the strike of the BA staff (the staff are wonderful). The management and accountants made a mess of the pensions, not the staff.

They should insist the management understand a drive downwards is not their business 'cos if they don't we'll be fighting with insurance companies to refund the cost of numerous trips to the loo on a flight suffering from dehli belly - not the time to be looking for the correct coinage!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

can't BA management provide any work cover

And? It would seem to me to be a win/win for the traveller, whether BA or Unite win this. BA win aand they can compete; Unite win, BA go down the tube and the cabin crew staff have to take jobs at Ryanair or easyJet rates.

If they don't turn up for work on the employers terms , sack them, the days of unions dictating to employers is over or has Woodley forgotten Thatcher ? There are plenty of unemployed British workers and hard working east Europeans who would jump at the chance of working as glorified waiters on BA's planes for considerably less than the incumbents are being paid.

Surely a structured insolvency would be the best option. It would give the chance of creating a business suitable for today's climate.

I had the good fortune of working for BA in the Lord King, Colin Marshall era. At that time staff were motivated and proud to work for what was then a Great British success story. They went above and beyond their job description for the cause.

Now I'm afraid the airline has become a joke. The current staff are living off their predecessors' reputation and don't have a clue.
Its a real shame. I don't see any way forward.

In my opinion, the losers will be BA staff Unions and shareholders. That is nothing new. But it is not a simple as that.

B A is as good as merged with Iberia and American Airlines. Iberia operate out of both Madrid and Barcelona, both modern Airports with excellent facilities. American has no special loyalty to London.

I have a nasty feeling that Heathrow will never need that third runway as the traffic leaches to the continent in a ru-run of what happened to the London Docks all thoses years ago.

What planet is MonkeyTallyTops living on? Last time I looked, nobody in the private sector got the exorbitant salaries that people in the higher echelons of industry and finance get. And no share options either. Reasonable pension schemes traditionally have been some compensation for the lower salaries in the public sector, but they are now under attack. As for "the unions that are an anachranistic relic of the past" - unions are the only defence working people have against employers' attempts to increase hours and worsen conditions, and all this for less money. If BA has enough money to withstand a strike, why can't it pay its employees a decent wage? (And by the way, it's "anachronistic", Monkey)

The prospects for all pension funds are very very poor. Given either of the possible scenarios for recovery from the catastrophic debt bubble of the last two years.

Scenario 1: Inflation reduces the debt to manageable size - however this will also reduce the value of all cash savings and assets such as pension funds so pensions funds will be in a worse situation. Inflation will increase the pay of final pay workers and increase the liabilities of pension funds dramatically making things worse. The value of personal saving will continue its dramatic decline so those with pensions will be every more dependent on every more bankrupt savings - bread line here we all come!

Scenario 2: mortgage debts will be defaulted upon and sold at 50p on the pound as interest rates will go up to ten time what they are today. However many companies and individuals will go bust in the resulting debt deflation as will their pension fund's investments in company shares. (Personal savings and pension fund investments will yield some returns and annuities rates will still be small, but better than in scenario 1 above.)

There is NO way out. Pension funds will need bailing out by the companies and the state in all possible scenarios. We spent our pension funds over the last decade and there is no way back! We blew it during the last couple of decades - ask Mervyn King how!

7. At 5:17pm on 15 Mar 2010, vestor wrote:
Hon Peston blog without a single mention of "bank" or "bonus"?! - a step in the right direction, that's good.
Shame it doesn't really say anything of value though.

Anything to contribute to the subject ?

Relax - when green eco-fascists get their way flying will be a thing of the past anyway. Caledonian Comment

Karensheffield, the problem is that BA is paying its employees TOO decent a wage, twice the rate of the airline industry in fact. The pension fund deficit is something that was imposed on BA pre-privatisation.

While unions have played a large role in the rights of workers in the past, their influence and power should be greatly reduced today. There are huge numbers of private companies up and down the UK which have a non-unionised workforce and provide very good working conditions. It is only in the unionised public sector that 'poor working conditions' are used as an excuse to get ever higher rates of pay.

If the BA staff strike, they are as bad, if not worse than the tube drivers.

30 years ago I would have been "anti-union"....accusing them of selfishness and greed, but today it is different.
Today the unions have watched the "establishment" and the financial industry "fill their boots" with the nations' wealth, whilst ruining the economy, the pound and the national debt.
Cabin crew workers work just as hard as financial staff... long, tedious hours.
But their reward is miniscule by comparison.
All unions must be furious at inept government, financial industry and "establishment" greed.
And these are the same unions that pay the partys' bills.
We must expect more of the same, more strikes, more trouble.
New-labour can't live in their dream-world, where one sector takes all the cake, and leaves the rest of us scratching around for crumbs.
Tony, Gordon, Alistair....what did you expect?

BA is proposing to reduce the number of cabin crew from 15 to 14 on all long-haul flights, and has frozen pay for two years.

Is this draconian? We are in the worse recession since the war. BA is losing money hand over fist. Welcome to the world of the myopic striker!
Good luck Willie Walsh!

How much did BA fail to contribute to its pension fund during the past 10-15 years? Would anyone trust a management that failed to do what it agreed to do?

There is no doubt that industrial relations in BA are abysmal but the solution is not brinkmanship on either side. But the entrenched perceptions of both sides make a strike inevitable.

AND JUST TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY...

I accept that this whinge has nothing to do with BA...but it just reflects the malaise within the air travel industry in this country...

Two weeks ago, 6 persons travelled from S.Korea (4 customers/2 colleagues) to the UK, after a 12 hour flight, as part of a 5 day business trip to the UK. They were made to wait 1 hour and 50 minutes to get through T4 immigration. They were only visitors for crying out loud!

If what I read from other blogs on the BBC website, it is possible to enter the UK, under immigration status, in faster time than 1 hour 50 mins.

From personal experience, it has often taken me well over an hour to pass through immigration in the UK...and that's as a UK citizen!

As far as air travel is concerned, this country truly is a bad joke.

I hate this country!....(it's not my country anymore)

22. stevewo wrote:
"Cabin crew workers work just as hard as financial staff... long, tedious hours."

Long hours? BA Cabin Staff are legally not allowed to work more than 900 hours a year - an average of SEVENTEEN hours a week - they might be tedious hours but certainly aren't long! Long haul crew work even less hours a year.

If BA crew fly to Sharm el Sheikh (for example) they are entitled to 2 nights stopover! Easyjet crew get ONE hour!

It goes on and on - allowances, higher pay, free flights, second jobs, subsidised food. Blimey it's tough! No wonder they're striking.

'But many shareholders would point out that 23 years after the flag-carrying airline was privatised, BA has failed to sufficiently modernise industrial relations.'

Isn't this also happening with the Royal Mail? Their failure to modernise is leaving the 'big player' as an extremely inefficient dinosaur susceptible to newer, more flexible competitors taking their market share. Leaving them as, well, 21st Century Britain.

Again we have a once great company screwed up basically by mis-management.
The company has a pension black hole(like many others)that could be filled by the cash being used to break the unions representing the workers.
As usual the pension fund has been raided to cover some other screw up by the succesive management teams.
It is an anigma in todays world its too big and exerts a lot of power in the airline industry which is bad for competition I accept that. But the workers have employment and pension contracts and they should be honoured not broken!Personally I would not touch a company pension scheme with a barge pole, buy property instead its safer and at least you have an asset at the end of the day! Boy how times have changed!

Well said Stevewo I agree !
Today the unions have watched the "establishment" and the financial industry "fill their boots" with the nations' wealth, whilst ruining the economy, the pound and the national debt.
Cabin crew workers work just as hard as financial staff... long, tedious hours.But their reward is miniscule by comparison.
All unions must be furious at inept government, financial industry and "establishment" greed.
And these are the same unions that pay the partys' bills.
We must expect more of the same, more strikes, more trouble.
New-labour can't live in their dream-world, where one sector takes all the cake, and leaves the rest of us scratching around for crumbs.

BA is typical of many British management teams. It has a high opinion of its own capabilities but it is not matched by its performance.

I have total admiration for Unite and the Cabin Crew. They are not stupid, they know what the company situation is and their own particular predicament. However, they are prepared to stand up and demonstrate that it is justifiable to stand up to a management it has little or no respect for.

I suppose that in a broad view if this continues there will no jobs anyway to argue about. And all shareholders will have worthless shares.

You could see this as breaking the unions, but then again from the outside we only get propaganda from both sides. You think that a meeting point on a deal can be found somewhere?
Foe what its worth my theory, if BA went down the tubes then no-one would replace them....No need then for T5 at Heathrow....No need for 3rd runway at Heathrow... the BA pension 'black hole' will have no need to be filled as the cash would will vanish off to pay debts of the firm.

I again would like to be proved wrong, doubt it though

How many companies have been bought purely to get there hands on the pension fund surplus, forget wether the product being made is profitable thats a side issue!
Also how many management teams have walked away from there liabilities to the pension fund by deliberatley winding up the business , changing its name, of selling it on to somebody else?
Chysler, GM, British Airways there are loads of examples. A company the company you work for over night the pension rules are changed and your annual pension is slashed and your redundancy pay is reduced hmmm think about that one it could be you next!

I wonder if the chairman will get a big bonus if he manages to get them all on revised contracts? Longer hours and more work I wonder if he would work for the same terms and conditions?
If the company is losing money he will fold it and buy it out of the bankrupty hearing free of the pension liabilities similar to GM and Chrysler.Basically walk away from the existing contracts.

KeithRodgers - today the unions have watched the "establishment" and the financial industry "fill their boots" with the nations' wealth...

Has anyone asked what financial packages our union leaders are on .... whilst agreeing with your comments re the financial industry, I think you'll find the union leaders are just as guilty as they ensure they "fill their boots" at the expense of their members.

There were 34 comments by the time of writing this, yet nobody has mentioned the competitive environment in which BA operates. High personnel costs directly keeps fares high and profits low compared with other airlines. I assume those writers defending Unite choose to travel BA, and consciously reject airlines offering cheaper fairs or better service. If they choose the cheapest flights, and reject BA, then they are hypocrits.
I fly a lot, long haul, and I have the choice of 4 airlines on my route(soon to be 5). I will choose the carrier who gives me the best service and the lowest fares.

I never have and never will buy any shares of a company with final salary pension scheme.

We are told the amount of savings being sought by Mr Walsh from Cabin crew is £62.5 million per year. This equates to £171,232 per day or put another way, just 11.42% of BA's £1.5 million daily losses. In risking BA's reputation and shareholder investment through a strike on such a minor area demonstrates Mr Walsh's exeedingly poor judgement. One wonders if some underhand process of sale to a third party through administration is the aim.

Quite why Lord Adonis described BA as a 'great company' beggars belief, but he could be forgiven, because as Unite rightly said he has no industrial experience whatsoever. We can also easily ignore Gordon Brown's see-through intervention, coming down on the side of a failed management, because it takes one to know one.

Even more perverse than these ridiculous politicians though, and the Conservative's Mr Hague is no different for his own recently equally uninformed comments, is the outright blindness exhibited by BA's institutional shareholders towards the long and growing contrail of disasters on Willie Walsh's airline industry watch.

Michael O'Leary recently pondered on whether BA's chairman was after a knighthood or a seat in the Lords, he also said of BA's merger with Iberia that it was like two drunks propping themselves up on the way home. If you study BA's board of directors and lack of business accumen it becomes increasingly obvious that BA would be better off under the leadership of someone whose grasp of reality matches that of Mr O'Leary!

Shareholders need to realise that BA's fundementals are so dire so as to make the £62.5 million appear as if a rounding error on the balance sheet. They should conisder replacing Walsh instead of damaging relationships with group of hard working professionals who also happen to be the shop front for what could be a great company!

30. foredeckdave wrote:
"I have total admiration for Unite and the Cabin Crew. They are not stupid..."

I presume you wrote this tongue in cheek piece wearing rose tinted glasses?
Red Robbo and the destruction of BL comes to mind in this situation. I am afraid the Cabin Staff are out of kilter with reality e.g. Ryanair, Easyjet etc.

@ 34. At 00:56am on 16 Mar 2010, Caister wrote:

I think you'll find the union leaders are just as guilty as they ensure they "fill their boots" at the expense of their members.
________________________________________________________________________


Perhaps you would comment about how the Unite leader's boot filling is done, "at the expense of their members," (bearing in mind that their members can walk away at any time?)

I have no doubt the Unite leaders are paid a lot , perhaps £120K P.a, maybe £150K. This hardly compares with the £multi-millions expected by industry bosses these days. Even the lowly paid John Lewis boss is on £750K + bonus. It's these people that are a rip-off, not union leaders.

In BA's case the responsibility for its faults should be placed precisely where they lie - at the door of MANAGEMENT! There's years of occasional union difficulty at this company. If they still haven't got to grips with it, it IS the fault of managers - (just like the Post Office or anywhere else!)(The top bosses know this full well, but if they had any genuine ability they would not have a problem. The employees would see where the bosses were taking them and would be able to work out where the rewards would come from in future.)

BA is a mediocre airline in comparison to other national carriers. But it's the idea that fewer staff should be paid less, yet Directors should be paid millions more that is the real lunacy.

Robert Preston.
So what did you do when the crew of the flight told you, an unknown, that they spat in his drinks.
Did you do something ? No.
No Idiot would admit such a thing, and certainly not to another Passenger.
This man is more worthy of the News of the world. Get him of licence payer’s service. VERY VERY poor standard of journalism.
Rest assured, the eye is not of the BBC yet, at the moment it may still be Bankers, and BA etc, but VERY soon it will be back to the Beeb again.
He single handedly brought down Northern Rock by causing the run on the marker, and for that, you will eeeerrrr Always eeeeeeeeeeeeeee beremeber Robert. I hope you are proud.

I am against the strike.
BA need to look at the basic salaries of staff (new staff circa £12K), they pay them allowances: (4 day Tokyo trip circa £1000) this is to cover cost of food at the destination, if crew do not use it, it gets paid in their monthly salary, at reduced tax rates. Is this a way for BA to pay less tax and NI?

Pay them a decent basic, and ask the destination Hotels to provide breakfast and evening meal.

BA have provided good service in the past, but know they only offer services from London, usually at higher prices than indirect services from regional UK airports by the likes of KLM, Lufthansa and Air France. Very little to choose on cabin service these days, so timing, cost, routing and reliability are the main issues. UK air travel has the added burden of Air Passenger Duty, which is a glorified tax not applicable to other Euro countries, and set to increase again this year. Heathrow is difficult to get to from anywhere north of Watford, and apart from T5, is such a bad experience with obsolete buildings, overcrowding everywhere and the UK culture of queueing. I see more travellers using regional airports to connect with long haul flights from mainland Europe or even Dubai, ditching the Heathrow/BA experience altogether, and saving money and time in the process with lower taxes and easier connections. Amsterdam has FIVE runways and all terminals are under one roof, making it so easy to connect through, if BA does go, Heathrow will be close behind.

this is really what it's all about, from my point of view which seems to be getting lost in all the noise generated by BA and the government. Would be nice to see even just a bit of this printed. I've been a lifelong Labour voter, defending Gordon Brown through numerous recent embarrassments and PR disasters. I understand he's trying to win an election, but he's lost my vote.

Subject: BASSA: CREW WRITE TO GORDON BROWN AND HIS FRIENDS

The following letter, written by a group of crew has just been copied in
to BASSA. We couldn't have put it better, frankly. Thank you, whoever you
are!

Dear Mr. Walsh, Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis.



Firstly, our congratulations, you have almost pulled it off - for
different reasons of course but essentially, when it comes down to it, the
same reason - self aggrandisement.

Mr. Walsh, you have successfully hijacked the spirit of British Airways
and made it all about you and you alone, whilst Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis
to your shame, you have unquestioningly gone along with it. There can be
no other way than Mr. Walsh's. Forget the fact that many cabin crew have
worked proudly for this airline for ten, twenty, thirty or even forty
years; that whole families have followed in this profession of serving
passengers though generations.

We were here before you came Mr. Walsh and we will be here when you have
moved on.

You may have been CEO through the worst headlines that BA has ever
endured - numerous price fixing scandals and T5 disasters, but it is the
almost clandestine move of charging British Airways' customers a premium
price whilst delivering a low cost service that will be your lasting
legacy.

Far from keeping the flag flying, under your stewardship Mr. Walsh, our
airline has become a faded and tattered version of itself.

The media that cheer your iron fisted, jingoistic approach to staff
relations will perhaps discover your real motives; as the high standards
of service that British Airways prides itself on are allowed to dwindle
away in the pursuit of lower costs.

Again, shame on you Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis for choosing to be so
ill-informed regarding the real reasons for our dispute, and equally for
buying into that same myth for your own political ends. The general
election is due to be called on one of our strike dates and in a moral
panic, without even bothering to look beyond the headlines and find out
what really this is all about, you both leapt enthusiastically and
cynically on the bandwagon of criticism.

After thirteen years in power you both finally choose to face down and
condemn "union power". Except you got it wrong; this is not a hotbed of
irresponsible left- wing militants trying to bring down an airline, but a
predominantly female, professional and loyal, family orientated, middle
England and middle class workforce, desperately trying to save it.

So bravo chaps.

And the worse thing? You all know this, but it suits your different aims
to allow decent, hard working, caring people to be falsely demonized in
this way.

We know the good job that we do for our airline, and our customers
appreciate the way we look after them; we don't want to strike nor do we
want to inconvenience a single customer, but we feel that we have been
left with no other way to get our voices heard.

The campaign against cabin crew is helping British Airways to adopt a
service style synonymous with our current cheerless CEO. We don't want
that; we want to be proud to do the job that we love. We want to be able
to say, "yes we can" and "hope you enjoyed your flight", not spend the
whole flight apologising for ill thought through cost cutting measures. We
want to come to work without fear and with pride once again.

We firmly believe that it is cabin crew who truly fly the flag for our
airline - and yes, with a smile, not a sneer.

Sincerely,

British Airways Cabin Crew

28. At 10:57pm on 15 Mar 2010, KeithRodgers wrote: As usual the pension fund has been raided to cover some other screw up by the succesive management teams.

Don't blame the management keith, post maxwell they cannot access pension funds, the man who can and did is our wonderful leader, G Brown Esq whose 1997 raid on Pensions is responsible for at least £1bn of BA's deficit (arguably more) - see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1531448/Browns-raid-on-pensions-costs-Britain-100-billion.html

As a result of Brown's tax raid the cost and risk of providing a final salary pension is too much for all but the public sector. In a cynical move to raise £5Bn a year he destroyed the UK's previously good private sector pension provision, and has left companies such as BA crippled with unrealistic overheads.
BA cannot survive in it's current form, it should make it very clear where the blame lies (G Brown) and put the company into administration immediately to enable a new structure to emerge without the crippling pension overhead and with restructured staff contracts

This crew dispute it seems to me has been orchestrated by BA CEO, William Walsh. He has plan this union busting process for some years. Do not under estimate BA 1000's of men and women's votes. They are not militants from the 70's. They are decent hard working people who are trying to fight Mr Walsh's bullying tactics. Mr Walsh does not negotiate he imposes. He would love you to believe the opposite that the BA Crew do not want to negotiate. He has manipulated the media and even its internal staff making them believe that their colleagues are nothing more than inflexible, militant workforce who wants to ruin their company... This is a lie and pure BA's spin. The timing has been organised to coincide with a general election. The public has been mislaid and Brown and Adonis have not hesitated to stab 1000's of women and men in the back for their own advancement. SHAME ON THEM. Cabin Crew at BA offered generous pay cuts which Mr Wlash turned down. Just ask yourselves WHY?

It says a lot about how indefensible the Heathrow cabin crew's position is by the way they keep trying to divert attention to Willie Walsh and his supposed mis-management of the company.

Ultimately we are facing a strike because cabin crew won't accept a 2 year pay freeze and 1 less crew on long-haul flights. They are not being asked to take a cut in basic pay. Nor are they facing forced redundancy. Not bad given the aviation industry's losses during the credit crunch. Not bad given that average BA crew at Heathrow gets paid more than twice what they'd get working for a competitor.

Management at BA have to see these changes to terms & conditions through because at present their cost base is completely uncompetitive. Previous CEO's at BA have comprehensively failed to confront the problem of staff costs, which is why they are now so out of line with competitors such as Virgin Atlantic (let alone Ryanair). If (as union members appear to assert) Willie Walsh was only concerned with money he'd reach an agreement with crew today, avert a strike, take home a nice wage for a couple of years and leave before the cost problem gets worse. The fact that he's taking on the union is because he recognises how important it is the for the long-term sustainability of the company.

As for the hypocrisy of crew saying they're going on strike to protect customers interests, what nonsense. I'm not sure how threatening to ruin Christmas and then Easter holidays for tens of thousands of passengers is going to achieve that.

This is all all part of New Labour's anti-statism (anarchism) begun by Thatcher and suppored by the USA. This goes with devolution, Lisbon, Regional Assemblies, running down state schools via raising inspection standards (whilst lowering the mean ability of pupils via high low-skilled high birth rates from Third World immigration), PFI funded erosion of the NHS, buying senior people off in the Public Sector, destructive recruitment and retention polices, etc etc.

It's all been said before alas. :-(

How can BA management be expected to reason with Cabin Crew who, despite their lack of formal qualifications (compared to say, BA's pilots, who don't seem to be complaining), are not happy with a salary that is DOUBLE that of Virgin's Cabin Crew? Don't they know that we are in the midst of a recession which is hitting the UK's aviation industry harder than most? What good can come of this? Negative headlines for the company which pays and trains them and yet more damage to the UK economy. They are greedy and unreasonable, and fully deserve to lose all their staff travel privileges. Good on Willie Walsh for standing up to them. I fully intend to keep flying BA - the damaging actions of a loud minority should not cast a shadow over an otherwise brilliant airline.

45. At 1:49pm on 16 Mar 2010, Balanced1 wrote:

"Management at BA have to see these changes to terms & conditions through because at present their cost base is completely uncompetitive"

...and why is that? - did the staff suddenly get a pay rise taking them into deficit?
No - they didn't.

What happened is the law of the tendency of profit to diminish - which happens to all Capitalist companies. As a result the 'bosses' - who are bereft of any ideas - immediately return to basics and start imposing redundancies and pay freezes on the staff.

You may have forgotten that Wee Willie Walsh earns more in a month than the average flight attendant gets in a year - but the rest of us haven't.

Balanced1? - yeah right, your view of the BA industrial relations must be blinded by your adoration of Willie Walsh and BA management.

I suspect your last paragraph eludes to the truth - have we had our holiday ruined sir? - ah well, my heart bleeds for you.....never mind diddums I'm sure it will be alright.

Once again the defense of 'BA staff get paid more than other airline staff' doesn't wash I'm afraid - pointing out that other slaves are closer to starvation than you are doesn't make it OK, nor does it mean any BA staff should feel guilty about it.

Sorry if you have had to suffer a pay cut - I bet you wish you had solidarity like the BA staff have.

....and I thought jealousy was a socialist 'feature' - in this little game BA staff have played the market well and secured high salaries - are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to threaten the withdrawal of their labour if a fair price isn't paid?

I have just read the details of service levels during the strike period and the days between the strike days.BA insist customers must come first....however they cant provide hot meals even on no strike days!! hey wait a minute that might be a bonus. Get a grip BA.

40. At 11:56am on 16 Mar 2010, Joe Hansen wrote:

"He single handedly brought down Northern Rock by causing the run on the marker, and for that, you will eeeerrrr Always eeeeeeeeeeeeeee beremeber Robert. I hope you are proud."

Wow - how did Robert manage the following?

a) Influencing the Northern Rock short term borrowing model
b) Appointing the board who pursued this policy
c) Make the FSA look the other way
d) Sell all those packaged securitised debt to various banks with an AAA rating

That's some story there - clearly Robert is in fact master of the universe (because you would have to be).

....or maybe he only broke the news to an 'idiot market' which for all it's so-called foresight didn't 'price in failure' until after Robert told them about the problems at NR.

Robert may be guilty of lots of things, but single handedly bringing down NR is like accusing Gordon Brown of 'mis-managing the Economy'.

The reality is that nobody actually controls the Economy - if you haven't worked that out by now then you must be one of those 'voters' I keep hearing about - always full of optimism that this time there will be CHANGE but there never is...

It is the Unions whom have brought about this situation.
For decades (and i used to work in the airline in a different area) the management have been aware of how inefficient their crew are compared with the market place in terms of pay and work effort. They have never been able to acheive fundamental change in work patterns or pay because the Union has always rejected it. Their hands have always been tied for the threat of strikes. With competition ever greater Willie Walsh has rightly decided crunch time, sink or swim.
So if the Union had been more pragmatic years ago, accepted crew to work more flexibly and efficiently, not needing the most expensive hotels and not asked for inflationary wage increases year on year, when they were already the highest paid by far, then it would be less painful now. Humans are rational and we all want more, but crew need to be realistic and look around them, and accept they have been lucky for too long.

When is it for a Union to determine the level of customer service for passengers in saying less crew is not accepted. Perhaps if they want to run the airline they should buy it out - instead they are destroying it.

If i lose my pension and shares with the airline I blame Unite. Their leaders have nothing to lose but BA crew members will if BA goes into administration!

Crew are completely misguided when they have said they need to be paid more to deliver a high service. Restaurant workers in general are all paid the same wage wherever they work, pizza chain or 5* hotel. One business will have more training and posher surrounds, but the individuals broadly have the same skills.

We have heard that BA current issues relate to remaining competitive in an extremely aggressive industry.
BA tell us their main profit centre comes from long haul,business travel
So they are in a competition for travel into ,for example to the Middle or Far East where they are not competing with European based airlines but Middle East or Far East airlines who provide a fantastic in flight service in brand new aircraft at half the price BA can provide it.
These airlines do not have the same staff bills as BA but can still provide an excellent service.
Some would say they exploit their staff-but the staff seem happy,so it a way of our new Global-as Mr. Brown puts it,World.
the BA pilot have seen the writing on the wall and have accepted a salary reduction and it is high time the cabin crews based in Europe recognised where the real competition is and accepted reduced terms of employment.
The relatity is that if BA don't reduce their operating costs they are going to go bust and then nobody's got a job

39. At 11:39am on 16 Mar 2010, spareusthelies wrote:
I have no doubt the Unite leaders are paid a lot , perhaps £120K P.a, maybe £150K. This hardly compares with the £multi-millions expected by industry bosses these days. Even the lowly paid John Lewis boss is on £750K + bonus. It's these people that are a rip-off, not union leaders.

You should not compare managers with union leaders. Managers are responsible for running the company, while union leaders are responsible for not causing any trouble to company operations. So they do not bear any responsibility for the company whatsoever and get paid enormous amount of money just for that. I would love such job.

Andy says airlines all offer the same level of cabin service. I disagree. Try flying Thai, Malaysian and Etihad. Then try KLM, BA and American.
One point not noted by others is that in the old days (when BA cabin crew high salaries started) there were 3 flight deck crew and maybe 6 cabin crew on a 180-seat plane (707-120). Now there are often just 2 flightdeck crew and say 15 cabin crew on e.g. a 525 seat plane (747-400 in 2-class configuration). So whereas in the early days the high flightdeck salaries plus a 1:2 numbers ratio meant that flightdeck labour costs dominated, this is no longer the case (at a 1:7.5 ratio).

While the management of BA and members of UNITE battle it out, the people who are suffering in this debacle are the customers who ultimately pay the cabin staff salaries. I am on vacation in Europe from the US and have had to rearrange my flights due to the strike. Basically I have had to cut short my trip by 2 days and 2 nights in a hotel. As one of my hotels was prepaid for I am not able to get a refund and will be out of pocket for a substantial amount. Plus the fact that I spent over an hour on hold on the phone to BA while trying to rebook the cancelled flights. I am dreading getting the bill from the hotel and cell phone company for the long distance international calls that I have had to make. After coming to Europe on the BA flight, I commented about how good the service, food, staff etc were compared to the major US airlines.Now I feel betrayed and let down. I am afraid that BA has now lost a customer. I realise that I am just one of many unhappy travelers at the moment and our stories will have no impact on the striking members of UNITE or maybe they just will.....

Welcome, everybody to the real world, where competition is cut throat, and we just cannot cut it... Britain is no longer great, empire has long gone, we can no no longer generate any premium because of the 'Britain factor'.

BA finally realises that it cannot wrap its employees in cotton wool and the unions cry foul.

Why or why or why cant the unions understand one simple thing, Businesses must be competitive, must deliver shareholder return to survive...and deliver profitability...this nonesense of employee strikes is absurd...many would give their left arm to be glorified waiters/waitresses on BA flights and all the perks that come with this job.

It is really sad and frustrating to see the situation with BA getting worse. Both sides are now into trading insults and finger jabbing. The politicians are not helping one little bit with their gratuitious comments either. It is now a battle of win and lose and each side seems to me to be as childish as the other. If Mr Walsh had a grain of sense, he would now respond to the Union's offer to suspend the strike if he reinstates his offer of last week. That seems quite a reasonable position - but is anyone prepared to be reasonable? It's sad to see a great airline going down the tubes because of grown men behaving like schoolboys - in fact, on refelction, maybe that's an insult to schoolboys.

@Tony Geo - you may have forgotten that the pensions crisis which affects many big companies was started by
Gordon Brown when he abolished tax relief on pensions causing misery to millions. Not really BA's fault.

As a frequent BA traveller I feel safe and enjoy the service given by the crew, but back the management in restructuring to secure the future of the airline. Conditions there are far superior to Ryanair. BA is still where the wannabees want to work.

Dear Mr. Walsh, Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis.

Firstly, our congratulations, you have almost pulled it off - for different reasons of course but essentially, when it comes down to it, the same reason - self aggrandisement.
Mr. Walsh, you have successfully hijacked the spirit of British Airways and made it all about you and you alone, whilst Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis to your shame, you have unquestioningly gone along with it. There can be no other way than Mr. Walsh's. Forget the fact that many cabin crew have worked proudly for this airline for ten, twenty, thirty or even forty years; that whole families have followed in this profession of serving passengers though generations. We were here before you came Mr. Walsh and we will be here when you have moved on. You may have been CEO through the worst headlines that BA has ever endured - numerous price fixing scandals and T5 disasters, but it is the almost clandestine move of charging British Airways' customers a premium price whilst delivering a low cost service that will be your lasting legacy. Far from keeping the flag flying, under your stewardship Mr. Walsh, our airline has become a faded and tattered version of itself. The media that cheer your iron fisted, jingoistic approach to staff relations will perhaps discover your real motives; as the high standards of service that British Airways prides itself on are allowed to dwindle away in the pursuit of lower costs.
Again, shame on you Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis for choosing to be so ill-informed regarding the real reasons for our dispute, and equally for buying into that same myth for your own political ends. The general election is due to be called on one of our strike dates and in a moral panic, without even bothering to look beyond the headlines and find out what really this is all about, you both leapt enthusiastically and cynically on the bandwagon of criticism.
After thirteen years in power you both finally choose to face down and condemn "union power". Except you got it wrong; this is not a hotbed of irresponsible left- wing militants trying to bring down an airline, but a predominantly female, professional and loyal, family orientated, middle England and middle class workforce, desperately trying to save it.
So bravo chaps.
And the worse thing? You all know this, but it suits your different aims to allow decent, hard working, caring people to be falsely demonized in this way. We know the good job that we do for our airline, and our customers appreciate the way we look after them; we don't want to strike nor do we want to inconvenience a single customer, but we feel that we have been left with no other way to get our voices heard.
The campaign against cabin crew is helping British Airways to adopt a service style synonymous with our current cheerless CEO. We don't want that; we want to be proud to do the job that we love. We want to be able to say, "yes we can" and "hope you enjoyed your flight", not spend the whole flight apologising for ill thought through cost cutting measures. We want to come to work without fear and with pride once again. We firmly believe that it is cabin crew who truly fly the flag for our airline - and yes, with a smile, not a sneer.
Sincerely,
British Airways Cabin Crew

56. At 7:23pm on 16 Mar 2010, ishtiaq ahmed wrote:

"Why or why or why cant the unions understand one simple thing, Businesses must be competitive, must deliver shareholder return to survive...and deliver profitability...this nonesense of employee strikes is absurd...many would give their left arm to be glorified waiters/waitresses on BA flights and all the perks that come with this job."

So the cabin crew all woke up one morning and decided to make a load of trouble just for the sake of it? There was no BA provocation? Don't be stupid!

Calling such people glorified waiters/waitresses is obviously insulting, so what's your problem with people who do this for a living? They're still people, most will be honest, decent, hard-working. But in your eyes anyone who does such a job is what? And what makes you so superior? You think being a shareholder makes you special or something? What have you ever done for anybody, get off your high horse!

Businesses must be competitive, yes of course. But to survive businesses must also be many other things, like decently managed, work within the law, provide a quality product etc. The staff were offered terms and conditions, which they accepted. BA and its greedy shareholders are bullying staff and breaking contracts, behaving like gangsters and even have the arrogance to blame the union for causing trouble. This arrogance can only stem from one simple fact, that the balance of British law favours employers and shareholders rights above those of ordinary employees far too much. People who think the union is the only one causing trouble haven't got a clue.

The Establishment is conning ordinary people into believing they, and a few big industrialists, can legally extort the nations wealth whilst ruining the economy, scamming us with financial scandals, cash for honours scandals, expenses scandals, lying in parliament (military equipment,) hijacking the legal system for their own selfish purposes, (Trafigura, etc etc.)

England's dreaming....

Here is the reality of BA Customer service. Their plane cancellation email - lacking any apology - says simply "We regret to inform you that
- Flight BAXXX on XX-XX-XXXX has been cancelled. It may be possible to view your options and rebook or cancel your flights on ba.com". May be???

If I want to re-book I can do it online. If I want a refund, I have to call them - they will not do it online. Banking on a % of people being too busy to call? It is a cynical way of handling a basic customer problem. I am currently in Thailand and cannot call without huge mobile phone cost. I am sadly not at all surprised at this.

Let's say that Willie Walsh wins his epic struggle, where exactly is he going to place his revamped company?

He has already burnt his bridges with regard to a premium airline.

The middle ground airline world is so full of companies on their way down and niche players on there way up that he would be fighting so many bush fires he wouldn't have time to look after BA.

He has indicated that he wants to compete at the low cost end, but where can he place the New British Airways. The top spot has already been taken by EasyJet, a well established company with dedicated staff and a loyal customer following. At the bottom is Ryan Air perhaps the most successful airline at the moment, if you don't want any frills, a well established company with dedicated staff and a loyal customer following.

I have no idea where he is going .

Perhaps he could enlighten us all by telling us what market the new airline will compete for.

And perhaps at the same time he can tells us how he proposes filling the pensions black hole, paying the extra war chest costs and paying out the not inconsiderable redundancy costs.

If he give us his vision, his management strategy might be easier to understand.

Has anyone determined how many of the Organisers of these strikes are actually rostered to be working on the days of the strike?

As the partner of someone who has worked for BA for over 25 years, I can honestly say that BA cabin crew are really showing their true colours. They have always thought that they are a cut above anyone else in BA...looking down on anybody else who isn't cabin crew! So rude and arrogant to passengers....making it seem as if you should be lucky that bother to serve you! We are in a recession....everyone has had to take cuts somewhere along the line....get over it...you are not invincible(though you think you are). Can they afford to lose their jobs if the airline sinks, do they not have families to support? If they carry on like this...then maybe...none of us will be working or flying with the 'Worlds' Favourite Airline' anymore.

Has Mr Walsh sat down and thought of the long term effect his actions will have on BA by asking non flying members of staff to act as flight crew. These people work in various other departments within BA and work
on a daily basis next to colleagues who support the strike. At some point
these people will have to sit next to each and carry on working as in the past, and what sort of an atmosphere is that going to cause. The same
applies to flight crew who at some point will have to start flying again
with their colleagues who supported the strike and refused to fly and have now lost all there benefits.

I have several associates who are crew for BA who voted for the strike but were planning to carry on flying. Within the last 24 hours they have
been told that staff who carry on flying will have there names published
on a list. This has certainly detered my associates who advised BA that they would fly to change their minds. Intimidation it may be, but
I think Mr Walsh might get a shock come Saturday when all these people
who promised they would work dont turn up on the day.

I also understand that another issue that BA currently has with its baggage handlers may also escalate during the crew strike. Final thought, the way Mr Walsh has handled this dispute, especially with the use of other BA staff to crew his flights is going to be the final nail
in the coffin for what was an excellent airline over the years.

Firstly I would like to point out that anyone questioning the professionalism of BA cabin crew is seriously misinformed. Having recently flown on Virgin I can assure you that they do not compare.

BA cabin do not want to strike. They are proud of the service they provide and want the company to be the best airline in the world.

If you want to know what sort of person Willie Walsh really is, just look at his track record at Aer Lingus. He is only interested in breaking the union and does not care about the 16,000 cabin crew or the reduction in the quality of service caused by the changes he wants to make.

Let us not forget it was only 2 years ago that BA made almost £1Billion profit. Had it not been for the fines for price fixing flights and cargo BA would have still made a substantial profit last year too.

Sadly it is the Cabin Crew who must pay for the mistakes of the management. This is not to mention the farce of the opening of T5. Again management errors!!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

As an ex manager in BA I have sat on numerous flights in and out of Heathrow safe in the knowledge that most of the crew on that flight were earning more that me! Ok some of them deserved it and were truly proud of the service that they delivered and the company that they worked for, sadly these crew were the minority. The majority consisted of staff who blindly believed that they did a good job when the truth was they were going through the motions with gritted teeth, hating the job, loathing the poor customer who dared to press the call bell and why were they putting up with this??? Because of the money and the lifesytle that the salary and the travel concessions afforded them, all of this combined with a union that protected them from the harsh realities of the outside world. I would not choose to buy Willie a pint but I have to say my hat goes off to him for doing what no other CEO has done before and challenged the union to a real life game of truth or dare. Heathrow crew have to accept that this is no longer 1980, times have changed and so has every other employee in BA, we accepted more responsibility and accountability for the same money. We worked harder for longer and yes we did it without a pay rise or a thank you but we did it because times were tough and now it is the time for Heathrow crew to stand up and be counted and not feel the need to hide behind the unions apron strings.

I have read all the comments from this section and It seems that quite a few people have no idea what they are talking about and no pride in their National Airline.People and the media have always targeted Cabin crew, they can print and say what they like for the simple reason,Cabin crew are not allowed to respond,without fear of being sacked.
I worked for thirty one years for BEA/BA and apart from a handful of crew the majority were a hard working group and had pride in the company.
Things have changed and we have to move with the times. But this is not helped by a management bent on confrontation and bullying. BA's management reputation is mud amongst other Airlines.They have blundered from one error to the next and lost millions of pounds.The Unions have been a small problem.They too must learn that posturing doesn't help.
In all this no one has considered the BA Pensioners. BA for over 15 years took a "honeymoon" from paying contributions. When 9/11 happened, all funds lost millions.Will BA repay what they owe the Pension schemes?
If BA were to go broke how will the pensioners fare.
Can a country rely on Financiers,Bankers and Managers to pay their employees a fair wage? I don't think so. Unions are a requirement.
For things to work, both parties must sit down, talk, listen and act responcibly. Bullying and threats only work in oppresive regimes.
Remember next time you post a negative comment. Put yourself in their shoes and see how you would react.

watching it unfold seems to me the chairman is about twenty years out of date as far as negotiations are concerned the day of the despot died out years ago he employs people not morons both company and unions should find middle ground Teamsters should stay out of it.

other solutions would be to create jobs improve the hi speed rail link from europe to all parts of britain and land in paris

Due to the impending strike I flew with Swiss from Heathrow to Geneva on an Airbus 319. Swiss is not a low cost airline but they managed a superior/comparable level of service with only three cabin crew rather than BA's four!
BA management and staff must work together to create a worldclass company which is as competetive and effecient as the best in the market. In the same way that monopolies and chartels are outlawed unions shouldn't be able to use their considerable power to maintain uncompetetive work practices, which are not only damaging to companies such as BA but the UK's longterm prosperity.

I prefer to fly BA because I feel safer with them than the penny-pinching low costs.. I feel they are highly professional and their crews and engineers are highly trained and have good back up. I contrast a well trained response to an in flight problem with BA to near "panic" on a low cost. People look at the fare without thinkign what it really pays for and what it really buys the passenger. How about flying with qualified pilots as against new qualifiers who PAY THE AIRLINE to fly and thus get their "type rating" - which pilot would you prefer if there was an emergency? I do say, sadly, that BA cabin crew are their WEAK LINK - I have not found them particularly good at making me feel welcome on board. But the danger of the BA management winning this one is going down the slippery slope of chasing the low cost people and in the process cutting training and maybe safety in the longer term.

I enjoy flying BA, and do so often and agree the crew are extremely good, being friendly and efficient. However, we all live in the real world, there is a recession on, and in particular, the airline industry is going through a tough time. BA traditionally has paid higher salaries, some of which could be justified when you compare the service you get from other airline. (I avoid Air Chance at all cost, BMI is v. average, Lufthansa- well they are German, etc)
Look around and see what is happening to every other business, if you are making a loss then costs need to be cut, belts need to be tightened, not everyone is so lucky to keep their job.
We all have some issues with our management, but most people understand what’s needed to get through these tough times. Employment law is pretty good nowadays in protecting the employee.
The Unite union seems somehow to live is a different time, they continually use the word ‘provocative’ whenever the BA management make move, but how provocative is it to threaten to strike, and to call on foreign unions (who are not involved in the dispute) to disrupt BA activities. (Noting that the French are threatening strike action! - maybe not so much of a surprise).
As much as it pains me to say it ‘Go on strike, bring the company down’. If you are lucky Air France will end up taking BA over, or maybe Air China or Air India. You might then have something to really complain about’. I, as all customers have the ultimate say, treat us badly and we go somewhere else. No customers, no need for planes, no need for cabin crew, or for that matter, any one else in the company, management included.

So this is the situation, i my humble:

The Cabin Crew and UNITE are in the middle or utilising their chance to vote and show what they think their jobs and the company 'BA' are worth, they apparantly agree, that they think they know better how to run an international company than the staff and management.
So they will strike in order to demonstrate their understanding of how the business is best managed in the future. (sad bunch)

Over the next few months the CUSTOMERS will get their chance to vote (with their feet) on what they think of the Canin Crew and UNITE. I do not think that one needs a cristal ball to see what will happen.

Good luck, Cabin Crew and UNITE. Suggest you open your eyes, your coffee is cold, and if you look beyond your noses (that you seem willing to cut off to spite your faces) you will see you are putting the company into a spiral dive.

I am now actively looking for better alternatives for my own and my company flights.

to the ordenary working foke in the uk, we are trying to suvive at work in general
on average the ba staff earn a good salery and (what a pension), also a lot of people in the uk do not have pensions as other companys have used them for other means

the flights are dear compared to others (you get what you pay for)
to me i see another coal miners, and dockland, situation brewing

I was a BA cabin crew manager (or tried to be!) for 9 years and spent most of that time walking on eggshells - so much for 'macho' BA management! It's difficult enough managing a remote, 'freelance', transient workforce - but the grip Unite has on BA cabin crew makes it almost impossible.
Many of the working agreements stem back to the Wright Brothers days! Totally inappropriate and outdated for 2010 and certainly not customer focused. Time to start again!
No doubt many BA cabin crew will feel caught in the middle of this fiasco - but just watch the absence / sickness rates soar over the weekend - same thing happened during the last strike in 1997 - endemic sickness rather than striking. After all no one will loose their valuable staff travel concessions for reporting sick for duty will they?

People are talking on this forum about cabin crew cuts on some aircraft from 15 to 14. This is true but what is being proposed is the the CSD (Boss) who performs a largely administrative role on the aircraft is being asked to come out of his/her office to help. This situation has existed within the BA fleet at Gatwick for a few years - without any problems as far as I know. BA staff are paid substantially more than their competitors are & will not be taking a pay cut. Nobody is being made forcibly redundant. Plenty of people in other industries are. Other areas of BA have sat down, thrashed out a solution & taken the necessary changes to their working conditions in their stride.
Some of their competitors, who in some cases offer a superior service, charge us substantially less to fly with them. Ergo BA needs to save some money somewhere. Mr Walsh may not be trying to solve the very definite problems in a particularly cuddly way but but do I have any sympathy for the strikers. Nope, none whatsoever.

While everyone deserves a decent wage for their work, it does look like this boils down to staff and the union failing to see the bigger picture here. Other carriers are known to pay their cabin crew considerably less and yet provide as good, if not, better service. This is just part of the underlying problem of the mammoth cost base that BA inherited when it was privatised and never dealt with since.

While other carriers transformed their cost bases and took advantage of alternative business models, BA waddled on, dominated by old-fashioned expectations and ideas about what air transport was about.

As a reasonably regular flyer, I strive to avoid BA most of the time these days. They are pricey, inflexible and, sadly, I can't say that the cabin crew who are in dispute do anything to improve the reputation of their airline, if anything the reverse. I would not like to make unfair generalisations but they tend to score very poorly in worldwide surveys of customer satisfaction, especially when you look at some Asian airlines in comparison.

Clearly it is painful for the ranks of existing cabin crew to give up their place in the sun, but if they do not, their strike will only be adding to a long established litany of woes that have wounded BA's reputation in the UK and internationally.

Some American airlines woke up to this issue of an out-of-date business model a few years ago and ruthlessly cut costs to stay alive. Others had to go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy before they could do this. We don't have that in the UK so it would be reasonable to suggest that if BA don't get control of their costs soon, they will be beaten out of business by their more agile, lean and effective rivals. No one HAS to fly BA. Passengers have more options than ever before. The more the unions fail to appreciate this and pursue unrealistic pay and benefits packages, the faster they destoy BA's reputation, drive what loyal customers it has away and, ultimately make the whole enterprise unsustainable.

Unions do not so much protect the rights of workers but hold to ranson businesses. Maybe the costs incurred by BA as a result of the strike should be reimbursed by the union and its members.
With the current economic landscape as it is, a prolonged attack could culminate in the collapse of BA and therefore the loss of all jobs so consider your actions carefully. To all those participating in strike action: you should be ashamed of yourselves. If you do not want to work then move over and let someone else take over. There are plenty of people who have lost jobs over the last two years and would be glad of alternative opportunities.
This message is also for those at the RMT who are planning disruption on Britains rail network. You may feel you have a case and that everyone who is a victim of your actions is just collateral damage but consider the ripple effect of your actions and the total cost to the economy at a time when Britain can least afford it.