Premier League quartet will advance

Im backing United, Chelsea and the gunners to qualify - but the way they have been playing this season so far, Liverpool are really going to struggle in that group of theirs. Group D looks like it could be a very dangerous one, and i wouldnt be surprised if Liverpool just couldnt manage it - heck they barely qualified for the tournament!

Also, what was up with those individual awards? What a load of nonsense! I may be a united fan, but I think any unbiased football fan can see that Terry and Lampard didnt deserve to win anything. I can just about understand Cech, but Terry wasnt even the best centre-back in his team in Europe, let alone the competition. As for Frank...just no.

Im worried about our group to be honest. Marseille, PSV and Athletico are all sleeping giants of European football. You could call it the sleeping giant group!

All four teams will fancy their chances at home, so it could be a case of how many goals these teams concede that sees them go through. Right now i would think 9 points is enough to qualify.

Athletico Madrid are perhaps the underdogs of the tournament. They have some very skilful players and they used the Torres money well.

Marseille - lost cisse to Sunderland but still boast a decent side, will be difficult

PSV - Always give a good account of themselves and still feel harshly done by in the 2006/2007 CL.

As for the others, Arsenal will progress, Chelsea have it on a plate and United will do the business.

Celtic have a small chance but i cant see it.

Viskhan - we barely qualify every year. Par for the course for Liverpool.

I seem to remember us being a few mins away from being knocked out by Olympiakos a few seasons ago....can't remember what happened then, and we had 1 point after 3 games in the group stages last season to then go to the semis.

I hope you see my point

Surprise surprise, after a couple of bad performances, (which we won by the way heaven knows what we will do when we play well?) people have started to criticise Liverpool's prospects for the season. PSV are not a good side and have lost their best player ie. keeper to Spurs, they have a couple of young prospects but do not worry me. Marseille are distincly average and have lost Nasri, their best prospect, and Cisse their main striker - again they do not worry me.

For me, it will be a fight with Atletico for top spot, they have real quality in their side and I look forward to Torres facing them and the return of Garcia and Pongolle to Anfield, both of whom i feel were underrated players. Riera will do a decent job as he is an out an out wide player (which we currently lack) who will thrive on our passing quality. Liverpool will top the group imho, and after that onto the lottery of the knockouts!!

Phil, why are Liverpool in Europe still an enigma to you? Liverpool have immense confidence and experience in this competition. The results in the last 4 seasons speak for themselves.

Liverpool are in a tough group, which, even as a fan, I believe Atletico will top.

However, I still think Liverpool will progress. It may not be plain sailing, but it rarely is. It'd be boring doing it the easy way!

Despite any pessimism from some, it is worth thinking how other teams will feel about being drawn in a group with a team that has been in the semi-finals twice in the past four seasons.

That history will certainly give Liverpool the psychological edge.

I was amazed at the awards too. I can understand Cech being best keeper, he made some fantastic saves throughout the competition and thoroughly deserved the award. Terry getting best defender? Now that I disagree with, Van Der Sar never had a chance to get the best keeper award with Rio and Vidic infront of him. Rio should have got it for sure in my eyes. And no way should Lampard have got best midfielder. Ronaldo obviously the best forward without a doubt, you can argue Messi all day but Ronaldo was a key component in the winning team and also top scorer of the competition so it just has to be.

As for the draw, Utd and Chelsea will make it through without breaking a sweat, it's going to be easy for both of them I think. Liverpool ought to make it through because obviously they seem to be a much better team in Europe than the league. Arsenal are the biggest doubt for me, a lot of people are wondering how they will get on this season and they're showing early warning signs already, such as the 1-0 defeat to Fulham. If they can play as well as they did last year they can make it through, but with 2 of their key midfielders gone I'm not so sure that they can.

So I'd say Utd and Chelsea dead certainties to be through the group stages, pretty much positive they will both be top of their groups also. Liverpool I expect to make it through but not dead certainties, and I have a wait and see attitude towards Arsenal, if they lose their first few games I could see them collapsing completely and not qualifying for knock out stages.

Terry and Lampard put an abysmal performance last time around. I did not even fancy Cech but hey, footie seems to be run by comedians these days (F.A, UEFA, FIFA etc) so no surprises.

I agree with you Phil on the EPL sides, they will sail through (almost easily).

Red Marauders

I imagine that Phil considers them an enigma on the basis that they are capable of producing a good performance when needs be, but it is the fact they often seem to leave themselves needing such a performance rather than, say, qualifying with a game or two to go that makes you wonder why don't they turn it on sooner.

Liverpool and consistency are almost strangers I guess.

Regarding the player awards, what is the point of having them at all if they should just be given to players from whoever wins the tournament, as you seem to be suggesting? So if Terry's penalty had gone in they would deserve the awards but it didn't so they don't and it's "farcical"? That doesn't make sense, as success or failure on that one kick doesn't retrospectively alter their performances in the competition when considering their relative contributions.

As I understand it the player's awards were voted for by the coaches of the clubs who made up the last 16 of the tournament. I don't understand how or why they could be biased; maybe they just understand the concept of player awards a bit better than journalists and English football fans who have an aversion to Terry and Lampard due to the fact that they support one of Chelsea's rivals.

liverpools results in recent years speak for themselves? ha!

what, losing to besiktas? scraping a win past toulouse and standard liege? finally being outplayed and outclassed by chelsea? losing to an average benfica? being beaten in group stages by fc basel?
failing to even quualify for two years?

if your history eludes you for a moment - trust, all of the above are true.

oh and i honestly believe psv and athletico will go through in your group. hahahahaha

I agree with LuigiGLFC. I think if PSV, Marseille or Athletico could pick their own groups, they wouldn't have Liverpool in there. That said, all 3 are very capable footballing sides and Liverpool can't get off the start they did last time. All 3 are capable of coming Anfield and getting a draw and winning at their home grounds. That said, Liverpool (on their day) are capable of beating just about anyone. Going to be a tough group with lots of draws I think.

As for the other English teams, Chelsea couldn't have their group better than what they got. Man U likewise though I think they would have preferred not to get Celtic. Arsenal have history of under-achieving in this competition and with (apparently) lack of strengthening, they may struggle. But I think they will enough.

All 5 british teams to make it through for me

Something to note regarding the awards... I haven't seen a single Chelsea fan defend the awards to Terry and Lampard. Plenty of neutrals agreeing with Cech...

It seems that the Chelsea fans are themselves a little embarrased.

Cech
Ferdinand
Fabregas
Ronaldo

That would be a fair reflection of performances and contribution through the tournament.

Please can someone (from the Kings Road) explain why the spitting penalty bottler who gave Cech the chance to shine is the best defender?

G_U_F

I don't think jcooper02 (post 11) understands the CL set up.

Any football fan who can honestly say that they would not be proud of Liverpool's achievements in Europe over the past five years would either be lying or foolish.

Manchester United's win last season and Chelsea's consistancy in getting to the very final stages are worthy of respect, of course.

It's not how you qualify that matters - it's all about being there at the business end of the competition. The occasional loss to apparent 'lesser' opposition doesn't matter.

So on that score, yes, Liverpool's results do speak for themselves.

let me see. mmmmm...

vds conceded 6 all tournament and made the winning save or cech who conceded 8 and didnt make the winning save?

terry, who missed half the group games to injury and missed vital penalty or rio, who played like the worlds greatest defender in every match.

lampard, ok he almost single handedly won it for chelsea in the final had a quiet tournement before the semi's or fabregas who entertained everyone from the first kick off right up until the milan game where his genius was on show for everyone.

ronaldo - finally they got one right.

goalie_up_front

'Something to note regarding the awards... I haven't seen a single Chelsea fan defend the awards to Terry and Lampard. Plenty of neutrals agreeing with Cech...

It seems that the Chelsea fans are themselves a little embarrased. '

1) If you 'haven't seen a single Chelsea fan defend the awards' then you have been reading the wrong forum.

2) I am not embarrassed by the awards. I tend to think that managers of clubs that have qualified for the Champions League know more about football that bias 606 posters. Or those with a blog for that matter.

3) People like having a go at Terry and Lampard (rather than Cech) because they are jealous of their positions and try to find any way of blaming the lack of success of the national team on them, because certain people don't like Chelsea.

Naturally, you are welcome to your opinion though.

As a Gooner I think we'll be fine. Getting the Kiev away game out of the way first before the freezing Winter sets in is a massive bonus and we should progress.... and I'd tip Fenerbache to go through with us as Porto look in the midst of a transition.

Just a point about an inaccuracy in Hpil's article. It is very widely accepted that Dennis Bergkamp was signed by David Dein NOT Bruce Rioch. Rioch wanted Dean Holdsworth and Alan Shearer...... But Dein pushed through with the Bergkamp signing.

Did everybody here forget that it was the managers of the last 16 teams in CL who voted for these awards? Mr. McNulty too carefully side-stepped that fact!

How did UEFA become a joke due to this?

The draw like every year is a guarantee that the English, Spanish and Italian teams can just progress.

I don't understand the seedings at all? How can 4 english clubs be seen to be the 4 of the best 8 clubs? There should be a limit of 2 seeds per pot.

All 4 should qualify but the Champions league is slowly turning into the EPL. A predictable money: sucess ratioed competition.

Which for mean kind of devalues the word competition.

Phil McNulty would do well to remember that most neutrals thought Chelsea deserved to win that Champions League Final, but he is clearly another member of the Manure gang!!

Phil,

Enigma

"1. a puzzling or inexplicable occurrence or situation."

Not meaning to be defensive here but what I meant was I don't understand what's still puzzling or inexplicable about Liverpool's performances in the Group stages (or indeed against Liege). Liverpool always start at half pace. I still cannot believe we left Porto last year with a point. They battered us. Same again I expect this year. BlueBurns, I guess what I was trying to say is we've become consistently inconsistent.

Hey, just noticed that's three Scottish managers in one group. Which begs the question (for me anyway) has there ever been a CL group where all teams had managers from the same country?

So, Jimmy Calderwood for the Villareal job? He could get a real tan for once...

Hello Phil,

I find it at least disrespectful the fact that you comment about Cluj as the home town of the Cheeky Girls, but you don't find the time to at least read the correct name of the team which is CFR 1907 Cluj, and not FC Cluj, and also you post a link which takes to an unofficial site of the fans of the biggest rival of CFR, "U" Cluj, which is playing in the second division in Romania...

A simple search on the most popular Internet search site with the words "CRF CLUJ" will lead you to the official website of the team, which also boasts an English version.

Good luck with your articles in the future and just one advice : be less inclined to cheap sensationalism and more inclined to actual facts...

One Trophy, two Finals and three Semi finals in five seasons. THAT is the Liverpool record that speaks for itself. Man U and Chelsea certainly can't match those stats over the past 5 years. AC Milan is probably the only other club you could say has come close to, or matched, that sort or achievement.

Obviously there isn't a single Liverpool supporter who would be dissapointed with Liverpool's overal European form when you actually look at the above achievements. The only dissapointment is the league form.

At the end of the day, Rafa has set Liverpool up to be a cup side. I garuntee you that Madrid, PSV and Marseille will all have had sunken hearts at seing red in their group, regardless of the defeat to Merseille at Anfield last season.

red_fab_red

The draw like every year is a guarantee that the English, Spanish and Italian teams can just progress.

I don't understand the seedings at all? How can 4 english clubs be seen to be the 4 of the best 8 clubs? There should be a limit of 2 seeds per pot.

All 4 should qualify but the Champions league is slowly turning into the EPL. A predictable money: sucess ratioed competition.

Which for mean kind of devalues the word competition.
------------------------------------------------------
Competition? Like the EPL the Champions League does not seem to distribute the money evenly and therefore, it becomes something of a self fulfilling prophecy.

You could argue that rather than being in the last 8 constitutes a success, it is surely a minimum requirement and anything less is a failure. If you are one of the best 8 funded teams in Europe you SHOULD get to the last 8, simple as that.

I hope that Champions League places get spread around Europe better in future. But, I can but dream....

andreiion

Nevermind links to CFR 1907 Cruj, what about a few more Cheeky Girls photo's.

Let's see how Everton get on against Standard Liege eh Phil! :-)

MrBlueBurns

With regards to the Terry, Lampard gettiing award due to expertise of the so-called managers of the CL club.

Can you a chelsea fan justify the decision of Terry getting the award ahead of Rio or even Cavalho last season? You will probably watch more chelsea games then most of the managers who would have voted.

With a player who played so few games, made many error even though up until the semi chelsea had the most easiest fixtures to play.

Whereas Rio bossed the game at the back - putting classy performances consistently.

ritz

Not necessarily saying I could justify the awards. But, I am prepared to accept that those with a better knowledge of the subject matter are better placed TO make those awards, that's all I'm saying.

p.s. in my opinion, if you want one really excellent defensive performance, look at Wes Brown at home to Barca. Now that DID catch my eye!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

jcooper02 is suffering from disillusions as we lost to besiktas 1-0 then beat them 8-0, we always scrape through qualification and frankly in over the sands of time the performance is far less important then the result perhaps why we've got 18 league titles to chelsea's 2?! We lost to chelsea once out of 3 semi finals and we pretty much had to score the winner in that game too! We lost to a decent Benfica with half the portugese national team in it having just lost sissoko to a kick in the face and already having won the trophy the year before and getting to the final the following year (ho rubbish LFC are). We lost to fc basel in 2002 - 6 years agounder Houllier!! And we failed to qualify under Houllier hence we sacked him. Simple when you think....

The draw like every year is a guarantee that the English, Spanish and Italian teams can just progress.

I don't understand the seedings at all? How can 4 english clubs be seen to be the 4 of the best 8 clubs? There should be a limit of 2 seeds per pot.


-------------------------------------------------

, its done on uefa co efficients, which is judged on how well you have done in europe over the last 3 seasons. all four clubs have generally done very well in reaching the latter stages, hence the high co efficient, hence the high seeding.

its the same thinking thats allowed dark horses like athletico madrid to be 4th seeds and get into liverpools group

Liverpool never seem to make it very easy for themselves but I think it's interesting to note that despite not playing well this campaign, they've still won 3 and drawn once in 4 games.

A mark of a good side is one that can still win games when playing badly, something Liverpool haven't done for a while and United have got off to a fine art.

I know including friendlies are pointless but they've played 27 matches in total this year and have lost just two. Barnsley (ahem!) in the cup and the Chelsea in the Champions League semi.

The record is two defeats in 30 matches stretching back to the 8th of December which can hardly be considered poor.

jcooper02 0 you sniffing something???

Liverpool are by far the most succesful english team in europe.. the third most in europe and the most succesful in the past four years also..
05 - Win
06 - last 16 knockout
07 - finals
08 - semi final

Im sorry but it cant get better than that. To
say chelsea outclassed pool last year is utter rubbish.. we battered them at home and a freak own goal was teh final difference (no pun intended chelsea fans)..
average benefica?? yea the benefica that knocked united out from the group stages and europe compelety and united dudnt even do enough to go to the uefa cup//
to pick out some bad performances over the years is daft and childish.. and frankly pretty silly

in europe liverpool are a seriuosly seriuosly tough team and in the top 5 teams you wouldnt want to draw

The only safe bet as far as my team is conerned, that being Celtic, is that we are a safe bet to be an outside bet!!!

Every year the draw is made and we fret about where our dream away point will come from. Aalborg is our "promised land" this year.

That said I couldn't care less about not getting any away points as long as we qualify but to do that we pretty much have to win all 3 games at home and one time or another that just isn't going to happen.

Last 16 would be a victory for us. We are a global brand, in support if not in quality, but financially we are a minnow.

That's why I won't be taking a victory over Aalborg for granted!!

I reckon we might just sneak through with a little help from Manchester United.

MrBlueBurns

So you are another Chelsea fan who cannot and will not justify the award. Exactly my point.

Glad you decided to take the cop-out moral high ground route and promote that as it was "clever people" who decided who won. That just makes it nice and convenient doesn't it? No need to have an opinion of your own.

What I suggest in your position is that you stop posting on discussions as you are not adding any value given that you don't have an opinion.

Or do you want to attempt to explain why Grand Master Phlegm is the best defender?

G_U_F

Tuumble

The record is two defeats in 30 matches stretching back to the 8th of December which can hardly be considered poor.
----------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool in all competitions are not poor. However, how many of those matches were draw's?

Turning draw's into wins is almost as important as winning when playing badly.

I can't remember the last time a fan was proud to list final and senmi final appearances as worthwhile statics.

I mean come on if you don't win it then its not a success is it. Liverpool have come to rely on this competition to justify 'success' in recent seasons.

That facts remain that for a team that is rated only 4th in their domestic league to be given a top 8 seeding in Europe does not make sense.

Part of European football for me is watching the underdogs take on the big clubs. The Big clubs biggest problem is motivating themselves to win against a team who collectively earn less than their goalkeeper.

Liverpool have shown in the past they can take on Barcelona, Inter and Chelsea and beat them. This is because they have been the underdogs in all of those ties. However at the times of playing these teams they are only in with a shout of one trophy where as the big teams are fighting on at least two fronts.

So before Liverpool and their fans get carried away and start to tell us all about their illustrious history with the competition they should remember that if it were not for the money that UEFA make from allowing 4 english 4 spanish 4 Italian clubs places in the competition Liverpool would have been in it to win it in the first place.

goalie_up_front

And if you are going take an attitude of such pig-ignorance when someone gives you a fact that you don't like, then I would suggest that perhaps a CBeebies forum might be more up your street.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that people who clearly know more about the game have come to a conclusion. You see, I will concede a conclusion has been reached by people more informed than myself. Will you?

The player awards seem to have caused more discussion than the draw itself :-)

Do you think any of the players will cherish these awards? Hard to imagine really. I'm sure Cech, Terry and Lampard would swap their individual awards in a heartbeat for CL winners medals.

Certainly the 4 English teams should progress from their groups, that's the whole point of seeding after all. It would be good to see Celtic make it too. Then the real competition can start after Christmas, 2 leg knock out football. Bring it on :-)

, its done on uefa co efficients, which is judged on how well you have done in europe over the last 3 seasons. all four clubs have generally done very well in reaching the latter stages, hence the high co efficient, hence the high seeding.

its the same thinking thats allowed dark horses like athletico madrid to be 4th seeds and get into liverpools group

------------------------------------------------------

I understand the co efficients system used by UEFA and FIFA, the point i was trying to make was i don't understand why a system is used.

The Only reason is money!

I can guarantee you that if the next 5 FA cup finals had teams of the same level as Portsmouth and Cardiff, the FA would make changes to team selection rules or seedings will be introduced.

Taking the FA cup as an example a team from the top 4 (apart from last season) has won the cup in the last few years.

Why not let 'nature' take its course rather than installing 'man made' systems such as co efficients.

If a team suddenly gels and wins the league say for example Sunderland and do this unbeaten and by 20pts over the top, then by Uefa system they will be rated below the teams they beat to the title.

I know this sounds far fetched but it is not impossible especially when you take into consideration foreign investment (look at chelsea).

Awards should of been

GK - Cech

Def - Rio

Mid - Ronaldo (because he is a midfielder)

Str - Messi

All the teams will qualify Liverpool will prob qualify at the last game of group stage due to the good teams in the group

If people in England would take off their anti-Chelsea bias spectacles they would see what the rest of Europe sees:
Cech - Best Goalkeeper
Terry - Best Defender
Lampard - Best Midfielder.
Just because you hate Chelsea, doesn't mean they don't deserve their awards.
Get over it!

Well said Dario. Ferdinand wouldn't get in Chelsea's reserve team.

Terry was magnificent and had Van der Sar going the wrong way and only that slip cost Chelsea the title they fully deserved.

Lampard was great too and why the prats keep booing him I just do not know.

Come on you Blues

As a Liverpool supporter I am apprehensive about the group we're in.

And anyone can see that Liverpool aren't playing well at the moment.

One of our main match winners has been sold, he may not have the grace of Torres but Crouch could be relied on to score vital goals in scrappy games.

Also we have no balance in the system Benitez is trying to play. Gerrard and Keane seem to be competing for the same slot in behind Torres and we have no width.

Some ex-Man City loanee doesn't exactly inspire me into believing this will be easily fixed. Too many of Liverpool's signings over the last few years have been mediocre at best.

There are a few positive signs in the academy though, and it would be nice if a few of those were given a chance, particularly if they're wingers or forwards.

I'll reserve judgement on Keane for a while yet. He's still finding his feet in a new system with new players. However we don't have the luxury of letting him spend 2 seasons getting used to Rafa's tactics. Some of the best forwards clubs have ever signed have taken that long to bed in. But Liverpool don't have sufficient quality in reserve to allow a 20 million quid striker that much time.

In the end I expect Liverpool will make the last 4, but it'll be another disappointing season in the Premiership.

For some reason we keep signing mediocre players for huge fees, when other, better players are being bought by rivals that hope to break into the top 4.

I look at some of the signings Villa, Spurs and a few others have made and wonder why Liverpool didn't consider these players instead of the dross we end up getting.

Write Liverpool off at your peril there record in the champions league is second to none, especially under Benitez. I do feel that Arsenal have drawn the hardest group. Porto won it a few years ago, Fenerbache matched Chelsea for most of the both legs last year and i seem to remember Kiev causing United problems a few years back and are a team capable of beating anyone on their day. This said i think all English teams will qualify but i don't expect the English dominance of the past few years to be the same again. Madrid look good, Juventus as well and i think Inter will be there or thereabouts.

As for those awards the other day Lampard and Terry the best defender and midfielder respectively. I thought that Fabregas was streets ahead of Lampard and the fact that either Ferdinand or Vidic didnt get defender rather farcical, united's defence record last year speaks for itself though.

JT and Lamps shoudlnt have won awards i think that terry was the weakest of the defenders nominated and i think lampard wasnt the best i think fabregas, scholes and gerrard deserved it more

I understand the co efficients system used by UEFA and FIFA, the point i was trying to make was i don't understand why a system is used.

The Only reason is money!

---------------------------------

Well, money and the desire to avoid drawing 4 giants together in the same group.

At 3:06pm on 29 Aug 2008, jcooper02 wrote:

liverpools results in recent years speak for themselves? ha!

what, losing to besiktas? scraping a win past toulouse and standard liege? finally being outplayed and outclassed by chelsea? losing to an average benfica? being beaten in group stages by fc basel?
failing to even quualify for two years?

if your history eludes you for a moment - trust, all of the above are true.

-------------------------------------------

"Losing to Besiktas?" True, away, but we recorded a record Champions League victory at home.

"Scraping a win past Toulouse?" 1-0 away (in 40 degree heat) and 4-0 at home doesn't sound like a scrape to me.

"Outplayed and outclassed by Chelsea?" They beat us in extra-time, and only due to Riise's own goal taking it there.

"Losing to an average Benfica?" As was pointed out, this was a Benfica that had completely eliminated The Famous Man United from Europe that season. So hardly average (unless United are less than average?).

"Being beaten by Basle?" Under Houllier. Two seasons before Benitez arrived. Hardly relevant.

And "Failing to even quualify for two years?"
Basle eliminated us from the CL in 2002/3. We didn't qualify for 2003/4. We WON it in 2004/5, so I guess we must have qualified for it somewhere down the line. But we only failed to play in it for one year (unless you were going back to before 2001?!!)

As your history has eluded you for a moment - trust me, all of the above are true.

MrBlueBurns


here, fishy, fishy, fishy....

G_U_F

I Think People Should Stop Talking about past seasons for Liverpool Yes they have a good history in the champions league. better than chelseas man u's and arsenals.

But this is a new season and anything could happen, i'm a liverpool supporter and i would honestly really like to see another all Premier league final ( I didn't Say English Because there really aren't many english players in the 4 teams; Open to debate)

But I can Easly see all 4 teams progressing, and all at least getting to the last 16

My bets would be on chelsea to win it because of all there new signings payed by of course Mr Abramovic, and a Team like Inter Milan finishing 2nd.


All in all i think Arsenal will have a great start to it but stumble towards the end due to fitnes and a small squad
Man U to get knocked out by Inter
Liverpool Well Maybe they'll resign Riise and he'll score another own goal!

And Chelski to win well because of money!

I dont see Chelsea group as an easy one.Roma and Bordoux are tough oppositions and although I think Chelsea will qualify to knockout stage,it wont be without troubles.I agree that Liverpool will have the toughest job and for me it wont be a surprise if they fail,taking into considration the way they're playing right now.As for Arsenal and Man.Utd. the job will be a lot easier but this is CL and every team will have to work hard if they are to avoid complications.

Am I the only one to think Terry and Lampard were ever considered good because of one fact: Makalele! He made them do half their work...Terry is overated as a result...and Lamps can't fit into the national side as he has to DEFEND. Now he is gone so we'll see if Essien can take over that role or leave them exposed.
So no; should not have been awarded!

I see the English teams going through but to say Liverpool are in a tough group is a bit far fetched

For starters PSV are a shadow of their glorious past which was the Hiddink era which was so close to making the Istanbul final. They only got 7 points from their group last season, 6 of those 7 points came from CSKA Moscow who finished dead last in their group. Last couple seasons Liverpool met PSV 4 times, 3 wins 1 draw 0 conceded and the quality has not improved at PSV if you have time to follow other leagues without guess work

Marseille. Sold Nasri and Cisse, bought in Ben Arfa. Benitez knows Marseille by now and shouldn't fear them. Marseille recently in the league conceded 4 goals in one match to a mid table club. I fail to see the quality in Marseille to trouble Liverpool and Atletico. The loss last season will be a reminder going into the match this season not to take them lightly, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger as they say

Atletico is a different kettle of fish. They have good players but not the hardest Spanish team. Rafa will know Atletico's style and how to break them down. Last season Bolton managed to not only beat Atletico, but keep them scoreless over 180 minutes. Liverpool have been to much harder tests and come out fine e.g. Barcelona Nou Camp and Inter at san Siro infront of over 80,000 fans

Liverpool may not have played well in the first 4 games but that could be down to the situation in midfield. No Mascherano, no Babel and no Lucas due to the Olympics. To add to that Gerrard picked up a groin injury and had to play injured for 3.5 games. Obviously when the midfield gets back together then Liverpool's performance will improve

Keep hoping that it's a permanent form slump and that Liverpool will go out but you're more delusional than the people who though Lampard was best midfielder last season

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I reckon all four Premier League teams will progress to the knockout round, without serious trouble although I'm not sure Liverpool will top their group. As for Celtic, Manchester United and Villarreal are frankly better than them so I can't really see them progressing although if they manage to hold Villarreal to a draw at the El Madrigal they might just scrape 2nd.

Firstly i dont get why my previous comment was referred to the moderators as there was nothin wrong wiv it to my knowledge...

I'll put it simply then to stop it happenin agen...

John Terry didnt deserve the best defender award, rio or vidic or carvalho would have been more suitable options...

Frank lampard was an unjust choice aswell with gerrard, scholes or messi being more appropriate options...


And all 4 english clubs will progress into the next round so stop worrying. :)

Top level domestic football is now a joke. The EPL and Champions League have between them decimated any sense of competition or theatre that once existed in the "elite game".
The Premiership is exactly four teams and the Champions League roughly 16.
It's time to end this sham and introduce a europe-wide salary cap on top division sides.

Liverpool are #3 in the UEFA rankings for a reason. Being Liverpool we wont make it easy for ourselves in the group stage. PSV and Marseilles are nothing special, if we turn up we will win. Tricky tie with Atletico who have some pretty good players, we will have to be on good form to beat them.

But once we hit the knockout, sky's the limit.
Roll on Rome!

YNWA

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Having Chelsea players dominate the Players' Awards sure is bedazzling. I mean, Manchester United, the European Champions, the team that defeated Chelsea, only got Ronaldo as their winner?! Rubbish! If they only gave the awards as "consolation" for Terry and Frank, then expect the next Players' award next year to be packed by this season's runners-up. And by the way, Ronaldo is a MIDFIELDER right? So how was he able to win the best FORWARD trophy, he was given that award to make way for Lampard's "consolation"? Phooey!

As for the group stages, i can't see any reason as to why Chelsea, Manchester United, and Arsenal (i have my own biases too you know?) would not qualify for the next round. Liverpool on the other hand seems to be in a wee bit of danger in their own group.

Come on you Gooners!

Man united will make it through and chelsea will cruise through. People are doubting way way too much. They will get a couple of draws but in the end win the group.
Now Liverpool have no chance it all depends on Gerrard if he is fit they should go through but as keane-torres doesn't work they are a hopeless case.

The final line-up for knockout stages:

Chelsea
Roma
Arsenal
Man Utd
Villareal
Fenerbahce
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Zenit St Petersburg
Inter Milan
Bayern Munich
Werder Bremen
Athletico Madrid
PSV Eindhoven
Lyon

I can only assume some of the people reading this blog are speaking out of their allegiances rather than looking at the facts.

Firstly I support a team from the lower leagues (real football, bad pies, hot bovril) so i'm not going into this with any prejudice. My first reaction on looking at the draw was that United would be the most stretched to progress. For starters all-British ties are nightmares. Like Derby matches the formbook often goes out of the window, and when you are the form side in the whole continent you would rather be involved in more predictable matches than the Celtic ones. Secondly they have Villareal who are far superior to Athletico who Liverpool drew. Finally the Danish sides just aren't as bad as people make out. United should qualify, and will most likely finish top of their group, but it could be by the odd point between three sides.

Moving on the easiest draw has to belong to Arsenal. Fenerbace is a bad draw IN TURKEY - but they will get massacred at the Emirates. So even if you call it all square between those two Arsenal just have to get an overall points victory over Porto and Kiev to qualify. They'll flatten Kiev so that will be six points to nil - and they'll take out Porto four points to one. Overall that's thirteen points even if they LOSE in Turkey. That's a table topping score.

Chelsea. They have tough looking draw but is it really? Roma are a good Italian side but they are not European standard these days. Like many Italian sides they just can't match the English clubs. United showed the way and Chelsea will follow taking at least four points from the two games. I think they will take six points from the other two opponents and win the group with a match to spare.

Lastly Liverpool. Bad start to the season? In terms of the football yes - in terms of the results? Four matches played. Three won. Perfect record in the Premiership. I wouldn't mind my team playing that badly! The point is they are playing as bad as they can and its not effecting the end result. If they up that performance by 15-20% they will cruise through their group. Most importantly Athletico rely on two players who were average in the Premiership so no matter how hard you think those games will be the goatee'd one will find a way to take a minimum of four points. PSV and Marseille? They are sleeping giants in the same way as Notts Forest - in other words not just sleeping but in a deep coma (up the Foxes!). Liverpool have already showed they can flatten both in recent years and the gulf between the Premiership and the resy of Europe is growing not diminishing. It wouldn't surprise me if Torres went nuts against these two sides trying to score "double bubble" goals for Liverpool AND A. Madrid. Trying to get both his teams through. Bottom line they'll get through, but probably will need the final match to secure first place in the group.

So its another four way go for the Premier League. Although having just seen Zenit take out United in the Super Cup - maybe Celtic and Villareal will start to think they can pull off the biggest shock of them all!

A-T

I just noticed how, some of you Liverpool fans, have become so proud of your club's record in the CL over the past years. Sure, you may have been in its semis and finals for the past 4 years, but you haven't won anything for being in those positions consistently. So what's to brag about it? "Hey, we're Liverpool, and we've been consistently kicked out of the semis and finals."? I'm an Arsenal fan, and i know that the closest shot that we got was 06's final at France against Barcelona which we barely won with 10 men if it wasn't for Juliano and Samuel's goals (thanks a lot guys). And moving away from the topic for a short bit, we have been consistently part of EPL's top 4. Now what does that show? Practically the same results as yours, consistent runners-up. Point is, like it or not, those semis and finals appearances of the past years are irrelevant to your title challenge this season.

@62
Ronaldo is not a right midfilder. He is a forward, just like robinho. Can play on both wings n thru the middle.

Not a midfielder by any strech of the imagination.

@63
Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder. Just cos Arsenal are crap in Europe no need to get all jealous of Liverpool.

Nobody in their right mind thinks PSV will qualify at the expense of Liverpool.

Maybe you can win a European Final one day, good luck with that. Dont hate because we have 5 Champs leagues and 3 UEFA Cups.

10 points over 6 games is usually what is required to progress from these groups and I can see all four English clubs comfortably achieving that.

Chelsea should qualify comfortably as group winners, I can only really see them dropping points away in Rome and maybe Bordeaux IF they play badly. They should easily achieve 13-16 points overall.

Liverpool have a much tighter group, but on paper they are the best team out the four. Anfield is a formidable place to go on a European night and their home record should take them through. Expect them to make hard work of it though by dropping some points on their travels. I believe they'll pick up 11-14 points.

Manchester United have a couple of tough ties against Villarreal, and Celtic are never easy up in Glasgow. But, with the quality in that squad, they should certainly progress. I think they'll cruise through with 12-16 points.

There seems to be a lot of uncertainty floating around about Arsenal's credentials this year, but I think a lot of that is misplaced. Their style of Football suits European competition where the game is less physical and they receive greater protection from referees. I think the toughest test for them will come if they draw British opposition in the latter stages. A couple of tough away ties in Turkey and Portugal might jangle a few nerves, but they'll achieve around 11-16 points and make the knock-out rounds for sure.

I wouldn't bet against Celtic either and their fabulous home record. I think it will be tight between them and Villarreal for that second spot behind United. They'll need to pick up a couple of points on the road if they're to stand any chance though.
It'll be touch and go as I see them getting somewhere between 8 and 13 points.

if i was a centre back and our keeper was busy enough to win the best keeper award, i would not be able to hold my head up never mind accept an award. just what is goin on with this constant promotion of john terry.

"Now we come to Liverpool - the great enigmas of the Champions League"

McNumty! Just couldn't put down those spitting lemons, could you? :-)

Quoting this for greater effect:

10. At 3:04pm on 29 Aug 2008, southwestlondon wrote:
Regarding the player awards, what is the point of having them at all if they should just be given to players from whoever wins the tournament, as you seem to be suggesting? So if Terry's penalty had gone in they would deserve the awards but it didn't so they don't and it's "farcical"? That doesn't make sense, as success or failure on that one kick doesn't retrospectively alter their performances in the competition when considering their relative contributions.

As I understand it the player's awards were voted for by the coaches of the clubs who made up the last 16 of the tournament. I don't understand how or why they could be biased; maybe they just understand the concept of player awards a bit better than journalists and English football fans who have an aversion to Terry and Lampard due to the fact that they support one of Chelsea's rivals.
--------------------------------

Another iffy article. I can see why BBC made these kind of articles in blog formats. Since it finally shows that these articles are no more 'enlightened' or professional than the amatuer bloggers.

Safe if dull predictions Phil. "The Number One seeds will go through." Shock horror! Which team from Pot 1 do you fancy might slip up?


It seems pretty obvious that the four English clubs will go through, but if anyone is going to slip up it would be Chelsea. They still seem to be in shock from losing the CL final last season.

Who knows what will happen with Celtic. Their SPL form was uninspiring to say the least last season, till the final 12-game run in that took them to the title. Their start this year shows little improvement. Still, domestic form seems to go out the window in the CL, but every single game in the group is a minefield for them. Despite Man U getting two of the dodgiest penalties ever given the last time the teams met in the CL, Celtic won the tie overall to progress from the group before them. This time, Man U will be playing as English and European Champions. Any Celtic team who cannot raise their game in that situation do not deserve to wear the jerseys.

Liverpool enigmatic? Not really. What Phil and Liverpool fans fail to recognise is the flawed model that is the CL.

When you qualify as a 3rd or 4th place team and scrape through the group stages, you frequently find yourself at the knockout stage, yet again, not competing for the League. So while the big teams (Man Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca etc) are fighting tooth and nail for their domestic titles, with every game a big game and fatigue and injuries starting to mount, the likes of Liverpool rest players wholesale and don't have anything like the same pressure on.

This, and only this, is why Liverpool have done well at the business end of the CL in recent years. If they start competing for the PL in earnest you will see a different story.

Ignore it if you like but this is a REAL factor in the CL.

@ words of wisdom

Not really

Liverpool are successful because they have a manager who understands the tactical side of the game and understands the European game

You could also point out that Manchester United and Chelsea spend upwards of 32 million on players and have excellent squad depth yet can't do well in Europe

Not as case of Liverpool who don't have as much quality or depth as United/Chelsea. I mean look at how they scored 2 goals at the Nou Camp with Craig Bellamy and Riise of all people, while Manchester United played the worst kind of antifooball - a performance which would have made Bolton Wanderers style seem normal

John Terry and Lampard were worthy of their awards, the awards are chosen by coaches who made it to last 16 who are not so biased towards ManU unlike a few people here and maybe even the author of this article.

@72 You have a point. I've always felt it was a misake in expanding the CL. Of course the reasons were money which I find always disgusting.

A true Champion's League should only have League Champions competing.

i understand your point of liverpool not playing well and only barely qualifying ( where have we seen that before) but over the last 5 seasons liverpool have been brillant in europe and this is the reason they were seeded 1 in the draw as their co-efficent rates them the top side in europe over this period, keep writing us off as i include the english sides in this we are the team every one wants to avoide, lucky liverpool ask chelsea twice, milan, inter, juve, barca, aresnal does any other team in the last 5 years have that resume of beaten foes.

11. At 3:06pm on 29 Aug 2008, jcooper02 wrote:

liverpools results in recent years speak for themselves? ha!

what, losing to besiktas? scraping a win past toulouse and standard liege? finally being outplayed and outclassed by chelsea? losing to an average benfica? being beaten in group stages by fc basel?
failing to even quualify for two years?

if your history eludes you for a moment - trust, all of the above are true.

oh and i honestly believe psv and athletico will go through in your group. hahahahaha

---

Dear oh dear oh dear.

What? Beating Toulouse 4-0 on aggregate? Beating Besiktas 8-0? Losing b y one fluke own goal to Chelsea? Losing to the same Benfica team that knocked Utd out and reached the semi final with the best team they'd had in years?

Do you not understand the concept of RECENT years? In RECENT years the list of teams we've beaten include:

Inter Milan
Barcelona
Chelsea
AC Milan
Chelsea (again)
Bayer Leverkusen
Juventus
FC Porto
Arsenal
PSV Eindhoven

It's a who's who of European Football.

Also, i'd like to point out that the last time Liverpool SAILED through the group stages, we went out in the last 16 stage to Benfica. I'd rather we struggled, it seems.

I hope that puts an end to your ridiculous post.

yo gunner 35

who is the 16th team.

anyway: 4 english teams 4 spanish 3 italians (no fiorentina) 2 german 2 portugese and 1 french.

after that everything depends on the draw.

real, barca, 4 english teams, inter and bayern munich will top there groups.

Re 72

Don't think Liverpool can compete for the league title. They have the players but not the coach. Something is lacking, seriously lacking at Liverpool.

With no-one in charge who can sort it out, I think rafa for the sack before the start of next season

Liverpools place as 4th team is under threat, don't see ability to overtake Aresneal.

Liverpool fans won't address the point. You only look good in Europe BECAUSE you are NOT competing for the PL and can rest players and concentrate on one competition.

It's a HUGE factor and you shouldn't even be in the competition.
Win the League and you'll have some status. Otherwise just take a reality check.

The leagueb stage of the Euro-League-Cup should be abolished and replaced with knock out. It's all too tedious.

Given the amount of money Chel$ea have spent, they must be the favourites to win. Also very tedious.

Anyone remember Kenny Burns and Larry Lloyd and the magic of the Forest wins?

These petty points between "supporters" of the Big Four are also very tedious. They are living in a fantasy world where they dispense advice and where they slag off other teams - eg saying Liverpool are not challenging in the $ky premier league. Also they want their teams to buy more players to "strengthen the squad" and so make the $ky premier league even less competitive.

Refreshing to see Man Utd outplayed by Zenit though.

United should take 6 off Aalborg, 4 off Celtic and between 2 and 3 points against Villareal.

At 13 or 13 points, I do see them progressing. In fact I see all the teams progressing as Phil says. At this stage, the English teams should be expecting to make the knock-out stages, anything else would be a bad blow.

I think Arsenal will progress easily, Liverpool will make hard work of it, but progress and Chelsea and United will probably top their respective groups.

Hopefully, the smaller teams will win and make the competition more interesting.

It's really boring that some teams have far more money and buy success.

"United should take 6 off Aalborg, 4 off Celtic and between 2 and 3 points against Villareal."


2.5 goals??


PS Dynamo are shocking, Drogs (Drogheda United) should've beaten them, missed an open goal that would've seen them through.

points even

as a united fan i think we should progress from our group, but it wont be as easy as some people make out. no disrespect to aalborg but we should be looking to get 6pts from them and then i would expect our home form to be good enough to beat celtic and villareal but away villareal will be a tough prospect, they are a technically gifted side with some top class players so i would settle for a point from spain and likewise a point from celtic would be a great result with their formidable home record and probably the best atmosphere in europe which acts as a big lift to get that extra 10% from players not as gifted as celtics opponents. the group reminds me off the group stage 2 years ago with celtic, benfica and another danish team-fc copenhagen in it. like that group the danes could prove tricky opponents on their own ground and united should, narrowly, win the group. the main battle will be between celtic and villareal to see who goes through with united.

our group is probably the 2nd most difficult with the group containing real madrid, juve and zenit being the most difficult. and zenit will be no push overs and i actually think they will win that group with juventus going through in 2nd place, real are not as much a force in europe as they used to be and i can see them slipping to sloppy away defeats as they have in recent years.

arsenals opponents are beatable in their group and arsenals home form will see them through but they face long trips to kiev and fenerbache and porto is a tough game so they will drop pts on the way.

liverpools group is winnable for them but if they start off this group stage the same as they did last season they wont be as lucky this time round, they must win their home games and pick up a few pts on the road to win the group, and they should do.

chelsea quite literally, hand picked their group and with the exeption of roma, got the easiest ties possible from pots 3 and 4. they should win that group at a canter with the players at their disposal, but roma will push them close.

with regard to the awards given out during the draw, at the end of the day they are scant consolation for the chelsea players who won them, but you do tend to feel terry was given his award out of sorrow for his penalty disaster. rio and vidic were quite simply better, take for instance keeping the attacking might of barcelona quiet for 180 minutes, whilst terry contended with the likes of colin kazim richards, who still scored against chelsea-and cech was fully deserving of his award as he was the best keeper, but i belive chelsea conceded 8 goals in the competition where united conceded less(6i think), so if cech won the best goal keeper award, then chelseas defenders would have 2 have been worse than uniteds, this is even without taking into account united had a harder group and then faced french champions lyon, roma and barcelona while chelsea faced fenerbache and olimpiakos untill there 1st real test came against liverpool. lampard was also undeserving of his award, he isnt even in the top2 midfielders at chelsea. scholes, fabregas, essien, maybe even gerrard would all have been far more worthy winners. ronaldo was the deserved winner of his awards but i feel sorry for messi who would have won it without doubt had it not been for ronaldos astonishing season.

Dario Argento wrote:

If people in England would take off their anti-Chelsea bias spectacles they would see what the rest of Europe sees:
Cech - Best Goalkeeper
Terry - Best Defender
Lampard - Best Midfielder.
Just because you hate Chelsea, doesn't mean they don't deserve their awards.
Get over it
--------------------------------------------------
But they dont!!
how can cry baby Terry win an award when he LOST chelsea the final??
Lampard i can perahps understand, although if ronaldo had correctly been classified as a midfielder Lampard wouldn't have won, no question
and that would leave Messi as the best striker
But Terry is a definate no.
He is one of the most overrated players in england

With regard to the Draw, Chelsea will advance no question,
Man Utd will probably go through provided they dont mess up away like they did last time we played Villareal and Celtic
Celtic i can alos see going through, with 6 points almost garunteed at home, then 3 points away to aaB shouldn't be too difficult
if they can keep the defecite to United down they could easily go through, on goal difference if they need it
Arsenal should be able to beat kiev without too much trouble, but with Fenebache they could stumble, but their home form should carry through
Liverpool i can see stumbling
If Marseille and PSV can get their act together at home, and Athletico live up to the hype surrounding them before the games start, Liverpool could face difficulty. They need to be at their best to advance, and based on the season so far i doubt they will be

The Big Four from England should do well in the CL. Home wins at Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, Anfield Road and at the Emirates Stadium with at least some draws in their away encounters should be enough for the "fab four" to make it to the next stage.

Liverpool experienced some difficulties against the less experienced but hugely talented Standard Liege. In the good old days this Belgian side used to be formidable with the likes of internationals Nico Claesen, Alex Czernyatinski, Vandersmissen, Marc Wilmots and Michel Preud'homme in their ranks. The current set has some exceptional home talent as well as guys from North and South America, Africa and Europe who play positive and imaginative football.

If Liverpool get going they could be dangerous for their rivals in the EPL and CL. Reyna, Kuyt, Torres and Gerrard are world class. The team without doubt will peak at the right time.



Dr. Cajetan Coelho

Some good points in this thread, blog, forum....

now for my two cents, pence:

i do not like the format of the CL competition, the sooner it is put back to the old European Cup format the better. CL: you can have 3 bad games and still qualify for the next round. European cup: you have to do the business for 180mins +.

Failing that i'd like to see them scrap the seeded pots etc. Who gives a poo poo if all 4 english clubs are drawn in the same group. Money money, protect the so called best teams to ensure viewing figures etc for the latter rounds.

Whilst i'm harping on i'd also like to see none of this 2nd 3rd 4th place business being entered into the CL. Being a MUFC fan (not supporter) i realise they would not even have qualified back in 98/99, so be it.

Champion: person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place; anything that takes first place in competition.

blah blah.

Finally, yes Liverpool do have a better track record than MUFC in the last 5 years. And John Terry should not have won the award. Raaaaaaaa!!!!

But they dont!!
how can cry baby Terry win an award when he LOST chelsea the final??
Lampard i can perahps understand, although if ronaldo had correctly been classified as a midfielder Lampard wouldn't have won, no question
and that would leave Messi as the best striker
But Terry is a definate no.
He is one of the most overrated players in england

--------------------------------------------------------

why i missed that i do not know. completely agree Ronaldo should have won the award not Lampard. Since when has Ronaldo been a forward/striker. Ooh he scores goals he must be a striker.

okay then better change the record books for the mighty steve bruce when he banged in about 20+ goals in one season for MUFC as a defender.....or was it striker, lol. Think it was 90/91.

Ronaldo is generally United's farthest forward player. He doesn't track back, you could count the amount of tackles he put in last year on one finger - and you may not even have to use your whole finger. He spends a lot of time in the penalty area, take for example his headed goals in the Chelsea and Roma games when he was positioned as a striker would be. He is a striker.

I wouldn't argue with Rooney being classified as a midfielder though.

Your link to the "mysterious" FC Cluj isn't correct. FC "U" Cluj lost to CFR Cluj in the last game of the season and was relegated.
The Romanian club that plays in the Champions League is CFR Cluj. Last season they won the national cup and the league in Romania and took the champions’ title out of Bucharest after almost 20 years.
They even have an English website by now: https://www.cfrcluj1907.ro

Can somebody please explain to me how the co-efficient works?

Celtic have managed to get into the last 16 for the past 2 years. Rangers got to the UEFA cup final and Scotland are currently in FIFA's top 20 countries.

And yet the co-efficient for Celtic is below Panathanaikos and Bordeaux. How do UEFA expect teams to be able to compete when no matter how well they do, the books are cooked to ensure that only the richest teams keep getting through.

With regards to the player awards, how on earth did Terry and Lampard win?

Terry missed loads of champs lg games, bottled it at the crucial moment and then cried like a big Jessie! Methinks a sympathy vote.

Lampard didn't deserve to win either. He is the most over-rated midfielder in England. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Gerrard and Scholes. Fair enough he pops up in the box and scores a lot of goals but I have never seen him dominate the midfield. He's like David Platt. Great scoring record but actually give him the ball outside of the box and he doesn't know what to do other than shoot.

Great pass for Bent to score on sunday!