Monday 9 November 2009

Blimey, Heathrow must have been chocker with all these folk coming back to get ordinary.

What might be needed, pronto, is a new runway.

And now all those planning hassle precedents have been eased...

Maybe what's needed are ration cards, except for those who are exempt, of course?

IS LIMITED ED REALLY HARRY ENFIELD?

Watching Ed Miliband being expert in such diverse disciplines, while still looking like 'Bandy from the Remedial 4th', it just doesn't feel like governance of any credible, viable form. Oh - it isn't.

An interesting take on the over population argument here, with fodder for days and days .....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6507782/Europeans-too-selfish-to-have-children-says-Chief-Rabbi.html

"Michael Crick will have the latest on the jobs race and whether David Miliband is still in the frame."

Remind Crick to tell us precisely how this jobs race came about and how David Miliband, the unelected FM of the unelected government of an unelected PM, came exactly to be in the frame for an unelected job.

PRAGMATISM IS SO IMPOSSIBLE!

Modern life uses a lot of energy. Modern life uses a lot of raw material.
The latter we CAN recycle. The former we can divert, use and send on its way.

The constant moon drives the tides. We are an island surrounded by tides. Tides, left to themselves, dissipate their energy as ocean-warming, thence via atmosphere to space. Were we serious about energy, tidal power would be a priority.

Countries with sunlit desert are applying solar; those with hot rocks - geothermal - need I go on? Neither has a residue problem.

'Follow the money' is now an anthem in this country. Therefore, while listening to the very un-persuasive Limited Ed, think: VESTED INTERESTS.
These Westminster charlatans have no interest in long term anything, nor in subtle answers to the energy question. They are fixing and fiddling while the future looks set to burn.

For evil to flourish it is only required that Limited Ed and his ilk go un-challenged. Sit back and watch 'unchallenge' - AT ITS BBC FINEST.

Weep pragmatists.

SO THE MEANING IN LIFE SEEMS TO BE - ER - MORE LIFE? (Sachs #3 link)

Has he 'done' logic? How is that 'meaning'? Looks more like a definition of 'meaningless' to me.

The height of meaningfulness, planetary things being as they are, would be for the human race to commit total suicide. Let him argue his way out of that (without invoking anything he can't define or prove.)

THAT IS A CHALLENGE MY LORD SACHS. NAME YOUR FORUM.

Not another NN with the climate change maker uppers, pin the tail on the donkey solution guessers and players to the gallery.

Again from the No10 website. The government don't deny they had all the solutions to climate change in 2001.(from 2006)

https://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ecodome/

It's just they didn't come from a politician so didn't want the public to know. Both the BBC and Government are wasting resources trying to find answers to challenges they already have the solutions for.

Celtic Lion

Ps Here's a hint to cut down on emissions. Stop sending aircraft and other military transport halfway round the world to blow other countries up.

Here is somethings else based on my figures in 2001 and confirmed by the re-insurer Munich Re in 2007 extreme weather events, changing climate etc cost just over $1 trillion every year.

Can you guess what global military and armaments spending is per year?

https://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending

What is the biggest and best way to reduce climate change energy and resource use, and it isn't employing mobile phone charger-turner-offer-inspection-squads?

#3
Brightyangthing
Another bright link from you. One day I might answer the Chief Rabbi's speech point by point but it looks to me like some of the elements of his thinking could easily lead to justification of dictatorship.
mim

milliband meets mr bean? i see NN is giving it the serious treatment.

making facts on the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-a-I3GxQFQ&feature=sub

#100 from previous page
Brightyangthing
I couldn't possibly take the whole world to court but am talking of a few individuals who have I met personally and a few other ones currently in charge of this or that organisation who, despite my repeat protests either engage in direct maltreatment of myself or who condone, or even actively support the maltreatment. As I keep saying, there are limits to everything. I don't quite understand why you should want to keep away from my calls to justice as I don't think we have ever met or you would have any reason to be consistently nasty to me.
The whole thing may or may not end in the Law Courts in Parliament Square but the Judges are already aware of what is going on and one way or another the perpatrators or the persistent condoners of the perpatrators will be punished. I have absolutely no doubt about it.One case I have referred to the Police and Justice is going to be heard in December, for example.
I hope I've expressed myself clearly enough. If not, you're welcome to ask me further questions although I couldn't give you all the precise details of what is being done to me but I can confirm that more and more people realise and accept my claims as true rather than thinking I ought to be put in a loony bin again. As a reminder, I won my case at the Tribunal which I had called for myself after which I was released on the same day.
mim

Now didn't I hear JG brown say if no agreement at Copenhagen then there was no plan B.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8313672.stm

Thought I did.

Since then we have been told there will be no agreement at Copenhagen. So why is NN wasting time discussing a plan our PM says doesn't exist.

Anyone remember the film Armageddon. There is the scene where at NASA they are discussing all the barm pot crazy schemes to avoid it. Billie Bob Thorton says can we have someone who has drunk a little less coffee.

Well I'm sure Justin's kitchen will be the place to make it by the jug full.

Celtic Lion

PS I've got a plan.

SPLIT ENDS

#4
'.... the unelected FM of the unelected government of an unelected PM'

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but ever since I have been able to vote, I have never been asked to vote directly for a Prime Minister or any other Cabinet Minister.

Mim
#8 & 11

You've faced some battles and more to come. I hope they progress well for you.

I have been studying faiths, particularly christian denominations over the past few years in an attempt to understand what makes those with a strong belief in a greater being, and what it means to them. I have begun to comment on the CR's text. It raises so many questions.

#12; well, you see, if we jabber/watch people jabber about climate change/global warming and make complete non sequiturs about nuclear power, forgetting all about all the other things we could do - for instance, try a low growth, low return, but balanced economy - then it takes our minds off the scandal that is Simon Cowell.

Ed and Dave/Jedward to run Europe, us included; "My little popstars", crows Louis Walsh/Phony Tony; "I'll tell you what...." grins Simon/Mandy.

any news of that other wall .. in palestine .. and that ongoing seige ?

Can we get a little deeper here on Nuclear new build please. There is a national scandal here - and I ain't seeing it being exposed.

Bradwell 'approved', Dungeness rejected - farcical; identical characteristics. Just another flawed consultants report driving that decision.

There is no way we'll have a new nuclear plant on-line till 2020 even 2025; carbon capture doesn't work. Hence to keep the lights on the big coalers will just keep going. CO2 targets blown. All the players, even EDF, will hold off till after the election and until a CO2 price is attractive enough. So no actual start to a project for say 2-4 years; and thats from EDF who are 'nuclear ready'. GDF Suez, SSE, and Scottish Power (Iberdrola) are only just dipping a toe in. So FACT it will only be 4 units at Sizewell and Hinkley in a 2020 timeframe - NOT 10 sites with near 20 units! that number of sites is farcical and is back of a fag packet macro policy.

But whats really farical is the cost model! its £100 billion to clean the legacy fleet and I reckon that'll end up £150-£200. Have you seen Sellafield! And there isn't some magic cost reduction in the new Areva design for example to reduce decommisioning costs in the new fleet. Then there's waste - the Finns and French have been funding from energy revenue for years their deep waste designs - where is that £50 billion going to come from? And finally who really has done a true carbon lifecycle cost for a nuclear facility? cause those numbers stink.

Sorry for the rant - but come on people; this is macro policy, failing on the detail, completely flawed. A tax burden and a 'cancer' burden for a millenia. UK nuclear is a dead duck - with a bottle necked supply chain, shrinking UK nuclear workforce, and flawed economic model.

Change GDP as the main economic indicator: include issions, biodiversity, water, child mortality etc

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT LIMITED ED MILIBAND.

We have recently had rammed down our gagged throats: "Advisors advise - MINISTERS DECIDE". Oh help - Limited Ed is going to take long term decisions. Ed said, tonight (in a heavily carbonated kitchen) "I am an optimist by nature and I think it is do-able." He really IS limited!
The belief in success, a decade or two hence, COMING FROM A PROUD OPTIMIST has a sort of Titanic ring to it. 'The unsinkable Ed Optimist'. Shouldn't he realise this?
(When I started in business, I had to pledge my house to the bank. Let's see if Ed will pledge his pension against his nuclear plan succeeding.)
That Limited Ed should fail to understand optimism IS NOT AN ASSET WHEN 'MINISTERS DECIDE' shows how limited his intellect is. Surly there is some brewery, somewhere, planning a 'do' that he could fail to organise? I do not want him organising Britain's future - my kids are here.

My favourites of the evening were Jeremy's interview with Richard Watson on Malik Nadal Hassan's possible ties with extremists - very interesting indeed.

Also loved Jeremy's interview on the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. Pity the old clip of Jeremy at the fall of the Berlin Wall 20 years ago with Charles Wheeler wasn't re-run :o(
Superb stuff :o)

AND ANOTHER THING

Ed is still wallowing in the Blair fetish for glottal stops. While being interviewed by Paxo, he uttered the following:

WO'I'VE DONE TODAY

WO'IS THE CHANCE FOR BRITAIN

THA'IS THE CHALLENGE

PAR'OF THE LOW CARBON TRANSITION

HE'S NO'AVAILABLE FOR THE JOB

Now wo' does that tell you about the maturity of the man? (Miliband D is still dropping them in, but less than at the height of Blair's influence.)

I read that he went through Comprehensive. But surely Oxford was not in thrall to the Blair miasma, thereafter - was it?

I don't want an impressionable Limited Ed nuking Britain - do you?

#17 Macro policy fails

So NN do a piece on nuclear power. This will do from todays 'other' news Douunray will cost £2.7 billion to decomission.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8346190.stm

Seems NN didn't seem fit to introduce their own figures into the debate.

Celtic Lion

#18 Presentsense

"Change GDP as the main economic indicator: include issions, biodiversity, water, child mortality etc "

The Government have a report of which I was part of from 2002, recommending this.

What you are saying is part of the sustainable development criteria related to better quality of life issues. If I can find the criteria in the Government sites I'll post it later.

My own recommendations go further and that of others. Drop economic indicator all together. Once we are free of artificial imposed constraints then we can start effectively dealing with the real challenges of the planet.

Celtic Lion

WHO MOVES THE 'GREAT BRITAIN' PIECE ON THE GLOBOPOLY BOARD? (#13)

You raise a fundamental point BYT - one that seems to pass unnoticed.
When these internally elevated nobodies, wearing Emporeal Clothes of Office, bestowed by a PM similarly elevated, play Globopoly with our homeland, a massive abuse of power is enacted. When they connived at Blair's infamous sell-out, the abuse became obscene.

When Britain went bust, there should have been a collapse of bread and circusses, that prop up the charade, but virtual money has staved off the reality - till when?

Having just watched an episode of "The Thick of It"on sky plus, I thought I had stumbled upon an early sequel when I realised that I was watching Newsnight. Please do not waste my time with programmes from anyone's kitchen. The interview was poor and latterly onesided with the one expert sidelined by Mr Ethical Man, and once again prominence given to a whining greenie who seems to want to hand over everyone's taxes to China on an unproven hypothesis.If you are really serious that this schoolboy masquerading as a government minister is fit ( or Miliband major) to become PM, then I'm afraid Dave Cameron will walk it in May/June. By the way, Ethical Man should have at least tidied his house since it looked a right mess to me. I realise that Newsnight prides itself on being quirky, this however was amateurish and lacked journalistic rigour.

#13
Brightyangthing
I can't say I'm looking forward to facing the battles to come but certainly am ready for them even if I'd 'lost' one tonight having slept through Newsnight but then again as it looked like it had been manipulagted by the undesirable elements of this society, maybe it wasn't such a bad thing although I would have liked to have seen Jeremy presenting it. Ah, well, I'll just have to watch him on the iplayer tomorrow morning if it is available for the viewer to see. I shall make sure not to have a snooze just before Newsnight tomorrow night, however.
mim

#18 Present sense

The man from DEFRA told me last month the site has been rearraged and searching is confused. No stuff Sherlock. These are the 1999 indicators they ahve been updated.

https://www.sustainable-development.gov.uk/sustainable/quality99/

These are DEFRA but not Treasury. Though we have Government ie civil service. We also have elected Government. But even DEFRA and Treasury can't agree on some coherrant policy. Once you add Ministers and there own agendas the whole lot breaks down into some eh - MESS.

I've done work for both DEFRA and the Cabinet Office, when I see how it comes out of the mouth of ministers, I despair and think why bother.

Celtic Lion

So JG Brown said their was no plan B (see #12 above)

But Miliband says the civil service has looked at all the scenarios. Oh more than one scenario must indicate more than one plan in response. Someone isn't telling the truth. Or perhaps more than one.

I've just been at a conference with senior civil servants. The civil service have not looked at all the scenarios. The CS can't even agree between themselves which sceanrios to look at, never mind look at all of them.

Celtic Lion

....and I found THAT clip of Jeremy with the Late Charles Wheeler at the Berlin Wall 20 years ago (skip to 2:15 of the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiuCiGSNah4

and the infamous "this is pure Monty Python" line!

"The never-ending saga of 'combating climate change'."

This huff and puff about the changing of the climate won't ever amount to anything, except, perhaps, a colossal waste of my money and further destruction of democracy. If you were prone to flippancy, you could say all this bluster is simply tilting at windmills, so to speak...or talk of a 'low carbon economy' is nothing more than blowing in the wind...or calling for a global deal to tackling global warming is nothing but hot air, etc.

I noticed the camera crew, in Justin's kitchen, required a bit of extra ceiling lighting. I guess, in the real world, those 'planet-saving' 'eco' bulbs just don't cut it, but...shh...let's not mention it. Also, I wouldn't have thought having, effectively, two studios in operation, spinning the electricity meters even faster, would be conducive to reducing one's carbon footprint, but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Mr. Rowlatt can claim the extra electricity usage on expenses.

I wonder in the name of precisely what purpose the BBC and some of the Newsnight team were indulging the photography boy yesterday.
What, may I ask, is he after? A pat on his back or a kick up his ...?

This note is more specifically for the attention of Jeremy Paxman and Verity Murphy but also for whoever might be interested in reading it.
Having slept through Newsnight in my armchair and therefore missing it, I have now watched it on the BBC iPlayer and have the following remarks to make:
1. I've just glanced at a few moments of the first few reports not being keen on red kettles and discussions on climactic changes with heavy undertones.
2. It was good to hear that Tony Blair is considered unsuitable for the post of the EU Presidency and that it is now unlikely that Pete Mandelson will ever become the Foreign Minister of this country with David Milliband vying for the position of the leader of the Labour Party (rather than a post within the EU) who do not seem likely to win the next General Election anyway.
3. It looks like the PM of the UK is cracking up which might expose him directly and personally to the functioning of the psychiatry world at first hand and which may turn out to be a good lesson to him and his cronies.
4. It was interesting to hear what Richard Watson had to say about the murderous psychiatrist Hasan having links with the Al-Qaeda. It certainly looks like more scruitiny is needed both in America and in this country of who is allowed to be closely involved within the respective security forces.
5. The last discussion on the blue sofas was in my view very good whereby most of the participants did talk about the importance of forwarding the cause of open and free democracy. It was aptly pointed out to the importance of the role that Ronald Regan had played in abolition of the Soviet Union, etc, but I found Jeremy's remark on the strength of the human spirit as opposed to attempts of keeping it caged in indefinitely as the most astute. It is a shame, though, that nobody mentioned the significance of the Polish spirit and that of the other liberating dissident forces, like that demonstrated by the Velvet Revolution in the now non-existent Czechoslovakia, in helping to bring about the fall of the Soviet empire and consequentially the dismantling of the Berlin Wall.
Long live freedom and respect of basic human rights!
mim

According to the Polish website onet.pl the Home Office are seeking to have immediate access to all the e-mails sent by the citizens of the UK. Whatever the rights or wrongs of this 'enterprise' the problem is it is all turning against the ministers currently in charge of the above mentioned institution, to be revealed hopefully in the not too distant future.
I think I'll take this opportunity, not altogether unrelated to the above, to mention a question posed by a backbench Labour MP to the PM two weeks ago about a national treasure constituted by some kind of mysterious channel connected to waterworks. Would you believe, dear reader, that he was referring to a female crutch? No? Hopefully the mystery surrounding the whole issue will hopefully also be revealed in the not too distant future. Are the Brits so surpressed sexually that they need to get turned on by the aforementioned crutch?
No wonder, Jeremy Paxman in his book 'The English' said something to the effect that it is a wonder how the said English manage to produce any children at all. Well worth the read, I would say. But I understand at the same time that his book is actually already an item of the English school curriculum so there is still some hope for the youth of this country to grow up as healthy in body and soul individuals.
From what I gather by following international news, quite a few other countries have already cottoned on to what is goiong on and what is at stake here probably both laughing their heads off at the Brits and at the same time giving 'invisible' support to the owner of the crutch.

BS # 24
...FOLLOW YOU IF YOU'LL FOLLOW ME.....
Unfortunately (or not according to viewpoint) that is the way of DE MOCK CRASS Y (v good!). Perhaps it is a failing of the GBP, perhaps exacerbated by the politicians and the media, to understand the nature of DE MOCK CRASS Y (v good!) and use it advantageously.

Local elections – YOUR representative – your council, your voice in your area. You have a fair chance of communicating directly with your chosen representatives. (party LESS important)

General Elections – your representative (party MORE important) in national government. Spending less time in constituency, advised by those left at home (local representatives) on local issues back home. HELPING to decide broadly in national government decision. BUT often ‘Under the Whip’ having to ‘Toe the PARTY line’ which may well go against their gut feeling or the mandate of their constituents.
We do NOT elect specific ministers, or the thousands of civil servants who gather, assess, digest, regurgitate and present the information that ministers then present in the commons, in white papers, in newspapers and on tv.

We all know how long it takes to get legislation or changes in policy though the process. I simply cannot imagine how stifled ANY progress or change would be if we found a way to allow every citizen to have their individual voice heard and counted on every individual issue.

In my work life I am engaged largely in expectation management for the members/customers of clubs and small businesses -It’s harder (but NOT impossible) to apply to large corporations and government.
• THIS is what it can (and should do) and what you have a right to expect
• THIS is what it cannot DO! and what you may LIKE but cannot EXPECT
• This is how to make it work to your advantage.

Much of current dissatisfaction is, in my view, largely down to the cult of the 'self' rather than a view of compromise for the greater good.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

NN - Monday 9/11
...FINISH WHAT YOU STARTED...

1. WHY OH WHY OH WHY were we in Justin Rowlatts (or anyone else's) house/street/kitchen? I missed the point, if there actually was one other than sheer gimmickry.

And then........... he leaves the front door wide open! Doh!

Surely the OB cost more (£ and carbon) than a studio based link/discussion or somewhere more relevant, like Dounray for example

2. It has been mentioned already but the de-commissioning of Dounray was also a news item today. The cost is astronomic, again in both £ and the long term residues that as yet appear to have no clear
Knowing that beautiful part of the country, I can say that from a distance along the coast, Dounray is no more a blot on the landscape than any other visible large industrial plant. And no more so than a wind or wave farm, electricity pylons or even church spires – all additions made my made in ages past. Alternatives need to be discussed outwith the aesthetic views that we all in time get used to. Take time sometime when walking or driving to critically analyse the landscape/horizon you see. MOST of it was man made – even forests.

With nuclear, the real danger is the Iceberg nature of the problem. What lies beneath. Technology and knowledge IS improving but we still lose sight of how the end game will play out. At least the word’s de-commissioning is being talked about but in many industries (oil exploration, cars, even household domestics) it is still a very poor second cousin to production and profit.

Exit Strategy is a Buzz word, but it still is more a case of sparkle over substance. On route from my area to the North Caithness coast you will pass the Moray firth and Invergordon, another area of outstanding natural beauty where whales and dolphins can be seen, but now a waste ground for disused drilling platforms, semi subs and topsides.

3. Mention was made of the Babcock (US) takeover of DSRL. In global terms, it is again more a case of ‘getting the job done (and done right) is more important than who does it.’ The workforce will be largely British I assume.

#12 TOO MUCH COFFEE

So there was a discussion on the solution to climate change. This thing abpout atmospheric concentrations of one gas. Carbon cycle remember that from 1st year at secondary school. Has asbortion and assimilation. Production /respiration of ecological communities. Lots of ecology, chemistry, geo physics etc.

So what did they discuss. Protocols, locking all the lawyers in a room, legally binding agreements. Do any of them really know what they are doing?

#28 RT (Celtic Lion)
‘....So JG Brown said there was no plan B (see #12 above)

But Miliband says the civil service has looked at all the scenarios. Oh more than one scenario must indicate more than one plan in response. Someone isn't telling the truth. Or perhaps more than one.

I've just been at a conference with senior civil servants. The civil service have not looked at all the scenarios. The CS can't even agree between themselves which sceanrios to look at, never mind look at all of them.’

In fairness, the ‘no Plan B’ comment should surely be seen as a linguistic/terminology choice designed to add gravitas to the situation and focus minds on the difficult decisions ahead rather than a statement of fact. Of course there are alternatives being considered, but in an attempt to sway opinion, grand claims and counter claims and sweeping choices are starkly illustrated.

Mim
I am reading ‘The English’ (very slowly) at present. I ‘borrowed’ it from a recent visit to my FiL’s near Leeds on discovering he had hardback AND paperback copies. It IS a good read. I have’The Political Animal’ on my birthday wish list. Goodness, I am beginning to sound like a Groupie!!! I haven’t finished Dawkins ‘God Delusion’ yet. Have you read that?

My husband left home (nr Aberdeen) at 05:30 to drive to Yorkshire to take his father to a hospital appointment today. He has to be back here by 1:00 pm tomorrow for a meeting with someone flying on from Houston. Not sure if he will return tonight( probably NOT) or first thing tomorrow.

I shall read your other posts later, but you remind me of a dear friend who often calls or arrives at my home in both her darkest and highest moments. We talk long into the night on deep philosophical, religious and social issues.

Have a good day.

I am on a damage limitation exercise over an issue that blew up in my work environment late last week. It is taking me away from the ‘pro-active to do’ list, which stresses me. If I can pull ‘peace’ from this stand off, Mr Obama may have to relinquish his Nobel Prize! And I worry about the journey and stress for my OH and FiL. Not too much coffee today!

LEADING BY EXAMPLE (#34)

Well put BYT! But I am sure you registered - particularly from the mouth (oh, such a mouth on her!) of Maggie - a trumpeting of the British credo: "WE ARE IN EUROPE FOR WHAT WE CAN GET OUT OF IT". And nothing has changed. And no wonder. This is the adversarial nature of our law, our politics and even 'gender stuff'.

There is a fundamental sickness in Britain. The national Anthem should be: 'If there's a Wrong Way to do it - NOBODY DOES IT LIKE US'.

Honour and integrity demand that one should join a group with the intention of CONTRIBUTING to its greater success. How are the over-mighty fallen!

If Camilla Batman-Ghelidjh had set up Kids Company for what she could get out of it . . . (How ironic I should use that illustration, when UK governance is in the hands of desperate, damaged children.)

#39
Brightyangthing
Before I answer your questions, I'd like to add another thing that Jeremy portrays so well in his book 'The English' which is the real problem that true intellectuals face in this country. There simply does not seem to be a place for them here, never mind respect. And with us being women what chance do we stand in the world run largely by the shallow and sexually inadequate 'controllers' of this country? Zilch! Luckily for me at least there is Jeremy and there is Alain de Botton both of whom I have had the privilege to meet though alas not for any time long enough to really appreciate their intelligence and humanity at close range. I still live in hope, however.
I have read all of Jeremy's books apart from the one he wrote with Robert Harris 'A Higher Form of Killing' and have started Richard Dawkins' 'God's Delusion' but put it aside after realising he was keen on continuing with the research of the lady's crutch that I mention at #33.
I do feel privileged, Brightyangthing, to be compared to a dear friend of yours. You may have made my day, in fact.
mim
P.S. Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Hope everything goes well for him.
Interesting what you say about Obama's Nobel Prize.

the ethical jedi mind tricks or false beliefs

1. uk, a country with its back broken with debt, is a rich country.
2. carbon trading is a solution [rather than a ponzi scheme that transfers wealth from poor to rich and enslaves every human being]
3. nuclear will get no public subsidy

Professor Graciela Chichilnisky architect of carbon trading is still banging the drum for wealth transfer from poor to rich.

https://blogs.ft.com/energy-source/2009/11/09/chichilnisky-on-how-to-solve-carbon-leakage-with-carbon-trading/

why will carbon trading fail and become a disaster? it was made in 2005 in the heat of the false belief of market fundamentalism that 'the markets are the best arranger' and finder of solutions. So they monetized carbon or if you like your existence. In the same way as market fundamentalism delivered the collapse of the financial markets and exposed them as a too big to fail ponzi scheme so will the carbon market deliver nothing but profits for a few.

the govt cannot give up its belief in market fundamentalism. it has no plan b.

https://blogs.ft.com/energy-source/2009/11/09/chichilnisky-on-how-to-solve-carbon-leakage-with-carbon-trading/

#2 barriesingleton

"Watching Ed Miliband being expert in such diverse disciplines, while still looking like 'Bandy from the Remedial 4th', it just doesn't feel like governance of any credible, viable form. Oh - it isn't."

Who cares what he looks like? I suppose your pal Jaded_Jean might have and probably Newfazer as the National Socialists prefer image and pompous ceremony as Hitler concocted at Nuremburg.

But whilst I am no Labour fan they are a democratic party and I would rather see dull accountants who deliver than impressive looking but amoral tyrants.

BLACK OR WHITE............. (other colours ARE available......)

'....and I would rather see dull accountants who deliver than impressive looking but amoral tyrants'

GOD help us all if those are the only choices open to us.

#12&37 Rogerthomas

"So what did they discuss. Protocols, locking all the lawyers in a room, legally binding agreements. Do any of them really know what they are doing?"

You seem to be always chirping on about the failures of others to understand but never look in the mirror.

Given the entire world, leaders and people, are looking at what may or may not happen at Copenhagen it is not really surprising that Newsnight sought to cover it and see whether it would just be words or something that may deliver results.

So you wanted 5-10 minutes on chemistry (#12)? I doubt many of the other viewers would.

Perhaps there are hundreds of top scientists who yearn to see Roger Thomas on Newsnight and who are too timid to put their names forward?

Perhaps though they have contributed their advice to the process and are happy to press for results.

You mentioned you have a plan but held back.

Gosh so you have a plan (#12) that you think could help the world but you are being coy about releasing it! Maybe thats what they will all talk about at Copenhagen?

You mentioned the other day that you thought that with the Klu Klux Klan what you see is what you get and that Marcus Garvey had respect for them.

Unrelated facts except that they say something about you and many don't see anything in the KKK to respect.

In the Guardian:

'The world is much closer to running out of oil than official estimates admit, according to a whistleblower at the International Energy Agency who claims it has been deliberately underplaying a looming shortage for fear of triggering panic buying.

The senior official claims the US has played an influential role in encouraging the watchdog to underplay the rate of decline from existing oil fields while overplaying the chances of finding new reserves.'

So obviously this raises concern about the 2020 carbon shortfall and slacking governments who have not been coordinating a successful flight from carbon.

Newsnight does it also raise concerns about another sector that could destabilise the global economy - namely the oil companies and those nations that produce the oil but have not yet diversified sufficiently should there be a dramatic switch away from oil?

#5 barriesingleton

"These Westminster charlatans have no interest in long term anything, nor in subtle answers to the energy question. They are fixing and fiddling while the future looks set to burn.

For evil to flourish it is only required that Limited Ed and his ilk go un-challenged. Sit back and watch 'unchallenge' - AT ITS BBC FINEST."



Given you have often said that you had done a "bit of R&D" and therefore felt you were in a position to suggest that the scientists could have it wrong on climate change thats a bit trite on the burning future.

As for "evil to flourish" lets go back to your pal Jaded_Jean whom you admire on the genetics front. That is the source of flawed science for the National Socialist notions on race "realism", eugenics and so on proposed by that poster. That is, or was, a poster who believed Hitler did many good things.

I am no Labour fan but the Milibands lost Jewish relatives in Poland to the Holocaust that those like Jaded_jean would say it was "made up to put people off statism" and those like Newfazer, whom I believe is Nick Griffin, who say the Holocaust was "overstated".

A better motto today might be "for evil to flourish let the BNP prosper".

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Whatever happened about the swine flu epidemic?

I am actually not unhappy it was taken seriously but am I right to assume that if people were going to start dying in large numbers it would have begun by now?

Will an all clear siren go off?

If I am allowed as a citizen to know about Gordon Browns eyesight (one eye lost to rugby and the other in poor shape) as it is pertinent why are we not allowed to have it confirmed how Nick Griffin of the BNP lost his eye and how well he sees with the other?

The allegation is that he lost it to a shotgun cartridge left in a fire - the kind of thing that could happen to anybody.

Perhaps Newfazer has a view?

Go1 #50

Yes indeed I do have a view, and a very good one thank you - out of both eyes. It is hardly consistent with the caring human character you claim to be that you delight in someone else's misfortune quite so frequently and with quite so much relish.

You are off topic again.

#48

I don't know WHAT I’ve done to be so cruelly censured. Can only assume fallen foul of some doubtful copyright issue or fear thereof. OH, just had an email. It’s copying verbatim my own personally identified work that is an issue . doh!

OK. Edited. Let's try again.......

Mim #41 (and others)
... ON RHYMES AND REASONS...
I tend to agree about the dearth of interesting intellectuals, especially those who manage to combine a certain humanity and well, common sense into the fray. Alain de Botton doesn’t get the airtime I think he deserves. But perhaps for the best. Can be somewhat self serving.

My issue with Dawkins..... rather complex, but largely because he focuses his venom on people who I consider mostly harmless fence sitters, namely agnostics. Have you read John Humphries (a dirty word perhaps in these circles!) ‘answer’ to him – ‘In God we Doubt!’?

An aside....
In my experience (and I do watch both and sadly keep score) is that UC is far harder for the average bod than MM. I CAN score as high as 35+ on MM, including I have on occasion managed high teens on UC (one question one point regardless of starter or not.) Don’t you feel SOoooooo good when you get a specialist question right that the contestant gets wrong! Simple pleasures.

Did anyone see ‘Starter for 10’ last night. I once chatted to Bamber Gascoigne whilst waiting to cross the road at Lancaster Place/Strand opposite Somerset House. Twas many years ago!
BLAKE
I was dipping into a recently purchased anthology of Blake last night and this morning. It is dated 1920, was introduced by WB Yeats and I purchased it among others on a recent idyllic morning browsing old books shops in Edinburgh (Youngest son is now at Uni there).
I recently wrote the following about my love of books. Not just reading. For as long as I can remember.
“I cherish the physical form of a book (any book almost) almost as much as the words or images contained. Most delightful are old, worn, treasured tomes, with all their ensuing sensory experiences.

Covers of hard tooled leather or grained fabric backed card for fingertips to trace. Perhaps loved too much, bearing evidence of past hands and homes; inscriptions or plates inserted inside covers, scribbles in the margins illustrating the reader’s involvement. Edges gold leafed, pages gossamer thin, torn or lost, yellowing or folded down.

Evocative smells held within, scents of dusty, musty library shelves or second hand shops where they languished. Long lost treasures flutter from within forgotten pages like some gilded sliver of a long lost love.

Words, lyrical or logical can tumble full of meaning or confusingly obtuse before my eyes and be rolled around inside my mouth and my head.

No computer held file, magazine or newspaper can be put down and picked up again, hours, days, weeks or years later, and evoke the same rush of familiar emotions. “
Anyway I re-read ‘London’ since we had recently studied it in CW class. And on the next page, found ‘The Poison Tree’.
It says what I was trying to say about forgiveness and perhaps the nature of the human spirit as was mentioned on NN last night, so much more ... poetically? You should be able to find them both online easily.

I may post more on poetry and prose, rhythm and reason another time. And may also share my school prizing giving speech on the ascent to the top of the tree. Later perhaps

I CAN NEVER RESIST A TELLING PUN

Yesterday, magic Obama, boomed to the 'Berliners' "people forge their own destiny". I could not help pondering the high price some forgers pay for good 'equipment'. Obama's 'equipment of elevation' cost an obscene amount of Dollars, as he forged his identity of demi-god, saviour.

Magic Obama certainly forged HIS destiny, but with so much to pay back, will it work out quite as he expected? Might that be what has slowed him down of late?

#53 Barrie

Forge their own destiny or cast iron/iron cast guarantee.

But which one's better.

Fight!

#49... RING O RING O ROSES....
Perhaps that is because a good number of people with early symptoms have heeded warnings to isolate themselves - NOT to make themselves any better, to reduce the risks of those at greater risk of serious complications (I have two friends currently in hospital in that sector)
OR
because immunisation HAS already cut the spread in recent weeks

Perhaps you'd like your flippant remarks to be relayed to the families of the 154+ people who have died in the UK, during the midler ususally flu free months of the year - so far.

The sooner I get my jab the better. Thursday I hope.

Wonderful stuff, Brightyangthing!
I"ll write back later when I come back to the attic as I'm now sitting on a bench in Putney High Street relaxing after a severe attack of pain around my bowels for which I've taken some Paracetamol. I'm not sure whether I've 'earned' these attacks but there you are, they hit me like nobody's business. I know how to cope with them, however.

Berlin Wall

I visited east Germany 6 months after the wall was broken , the place was in a sorry state compared to the west, it was like entering a time warp and going back 30-40 years. Maybe the fear of being spied on, being denounced and being sent for re-education or worse, the endless propaganda, the restriction of information helped cover up its total economic failure for many years.
What I took away from the visit was that the economic disenfranchisement of peoples labour is not only morally wrong, but wrong in practice too, the state does not always know best and should never be entrusted with the total wealth of a peoples.
This I conclude is why our forbearer's demanded that the executive must seek consent from Parliament for it's financing, rather than it being a god given right to tax people. Problem is something seems to have gone wrong in recent times.

I wish the eastern nations well in their restoration of their democracies and freedoms , guard them well.

#56 Mim
Perhaps a little TOO much information there (grin)- but get home safely and well, however far home is, but if passing please give my regards to 'The Boathouse' I think the riverside pub I frequented once in a while - I spent a few years trying to take in as many thamesside pubs (diet soda's only!) as possible.

Are you SURE you are NOT my friend Jane?

S-London #57
in the early 90's we had an au pair from the east. Mid 20's trained labtehnician. MOST interesting times with her, walking the scottish hills discussing east german politics (her English was very good by the time she left us after 9 months) and how people like her hesitated to leave until they were certain their return could be effected and their families would not suffer.

#52 & #55
Brightyangthing
I'm now at home feeling better.
I think I shall leave talking about the forgiveness issue lying aside for the time being. I have expressed my views already, things have been put in motion so don't see the reason of banging about it day and night. People can see for themselves anyway what's going on.
Yes, it does seem a shame that Alain is not more on the telly but then again perhaps he wouldn't be all that keen to sit on the panel of Newsnight Review talking about Michael Jackson or some horror movie that he would have had to watch for the programme. I can't really see him sitting in the studio blabbering what quite often amounts to silly exchanged with the other panelists with 'expectants' behind their backs, if you know what I mean. I think he prefers to write himself or to carry on with making films with the Seneca company and getting involved in running the School of Life. These are only suppositions, of course. I haven't spoken to him about things like that.

I thought Richard Dawkins' big issue is not with the agnostics but with the creationists. In terms of the scale of belief or lack of belief that he talks about in his book it seems to me that I am much more radical than he is and would be prepared to argue the case of definite non-existence of any god but nobody would listen to me anyway and I'm not keen on shattering people's faiths if they gain comfort from them as long as they do not start preaching to/at me, etc. My loss of faith does not mean I'm less considerate towards others and life than any other streetwalker passing me by whether they wear religious clothes or not. I didn't know John Humphries wrote a response to Dawkins but will certainly try and find it and have a look at it.
It doesn't look at all that I'm as clever as you are. I hardly ever get the answers right and am rather slow at finding the correct answer. I am quick, however, at making associations between ideas and what people are trying to convey in their conversations or appearances on the telly, for example. We simply differ in the type of intellect each of us has and also due to the circumstances in which I was brought up. I have come to accept that I can't shine with dislplays of knowledge but do feel confident about the strengths that I do have, especially in communication whether when twirling or dittying or otherwise.
You do write beautifully about your love of books, Brightyangthing!

mim

Broghtyangthing
A few more points:
I am not Jane and never will be. I am Madam Mim.
I don't believe in empirical mechanistic Pavlovian experiments. It ain't possible to achieve any results whatsoever in terms of how such activities as twirling or dittying, etc., are done. Pure rubbish, I would say, wasting all this money for nothing!
I am now going to try and get some sleep. If I gave you my telephone number, would you ring me to wake me up so that I don't miss Newsnight again? I would be happy to accept a silent call at the latest a quarter past ten.
mim

Mim #59 & 60
Glad you are home and well.

I can’t call you I’m afraid as I have to go out to a meeting soon (in the town of Stonehaven – birthplace of Lord Reith, founder of the BBC) and may not be back in time. Also, I am very wary of exchange of personal information in such a public place. And you really have NO idea who I really am, so to protect both of us, I would hope you can either set an alarm or know someone who knows you who can call you. Either that or we may both find ourselves on iplayer in the early hours. Hope you understand.

I know you are not my Jane, but so many similarities come through.
I totally agree about how incongruous it would be to have someone like AdB on NNR. It is making me giggle just thinking about it. Because a) I am a philistine in the arts, b) I find many of the guests a little too full of themselves and c) sadly I seldom find it easy listening to the female presenters’ voices.

Re Dawkins. Young are right of course in his main objection, but as I have read – so far only three chapters, it strikes me that he is very tough on faith supporting agnostics. I read slowly because I make copious notes on his text. I don’t know if I am saying this right, but I always KNEW he abhors creationists, but the other recipients of his venom have come as a surprise.

You are like my Jane in the nature and quickness of your intellect. She is very very sharp. Puts me in my place and I see each person’s skills and talents as unique, not to be judged one against the other. When working properly, microcosms of society should contain all of the elements they require to operate cohesively, effectively and fairly.

I was once very angry art a televised debate (can’t recall who chaired it – it may have been JP) a few years back when a female medical student railed at Tony Blair in support of having her university fees paid because she would be SO important in the world. ‘One day’, she said, ‘I may save the life of a bin man having a heart attack’. I SHOUTED at the tv, wanting someone to ask her just how long she would last without the rubbish bins of her luxury home being emptied. I was incandescent with rage.

This is a very small part of the address from a recent school prize giving that i addressed. I am vaguely uncomfortable with such events though applaud all success due to personal effort.

“I am sure too, that we can all recognise the contribution to school life of, not only those who have gained the ‘top of the tree’ but all of those in supporting roles. In the canopy of a rain forest, the tallest strongest trees make it through into the sunlight from the dense murky depths. But they could not be where they are without the contribution made from fertile soil to grow in, a strong trunk to support them, branches to provide structure and water that gives life. Even, dare we consider it, rotting vegetation hundreds of feet below that provide essential nourishment for the tree’s growth. And so the cycle of interdependence continues........”

Now honey, I must run (or drive) to a meeting I think is going to be rather difficult. My Husband will be enjoying fish and chips from the original Harry Ramsdens. Lucky him. Not so lucky that he will have to leave Yorkshire before dawn tomorrow.

# 61 Brightyangthing

Just a point of ecological accuracy from you post above

"But they could not be where they are without the contribution made from fertile soil to grow in...."

Rainforest soils are not fertile they are extremely poor, try a Google on:
rainforest soil quality

This is an extremely important point which relates to effective planetary management and includes resolving the challenges of managing climate change.

The nutrients are held in the biomass of the plant and animal communities, not in the soil. One reason is the high temperatures cause rapid breakdown of soil humus.

It is more complex than that, but a general blog is not the place to discuss ecological principles.

Another reason a TRF has so much diversity and why it can survive with only high diversity of species is to maintain nutrient cycling within the living biomass.

Start taking the species out, the system becomes unstable and collapses. The next thing is we have large imbalances in climate systems. Things that were not discussed in Justin's kitchen as the answer to the problem from the government is to 'lock lawyers in a room' to get a 'legally binding agreement'.

Rainforest soils are extremely poor quality, far from fertile.

Celtic Lion

FERTILE IS AS FERTILE DOES? (#62)

What definition of fertile are you using Celtic? Might one not say that if a multitude of trees grow, to great height and age, ergo: the soil is fertile? Are you from the Society of Pedants, by any chance, or the Pedants' Society? (:o)

Tee Hee Hee Celtic Lion #62

Thank you for the correction. (doff's cap)
I am humbled. (wink)

I shall write my lines "I must check my facts before making public speeches. x 1000. Anyone got a spare black felt tip???????????????


I do fear for the future of our education system.
Two department heads asked if they may use the analogy.
One was English
The other was Geography. Her speciality was Geology. She was the inspiration for my 21 year old son studying geology.

I was, I hope you realise, making a generalisation.

I DO enjoy your posts. What part (N,S,E, W) of the country are you?

Just now watched Mr. Rowlatt's kitchen cabinet meeting.

If this is the calibre of political heft and serious journalism surrounding this huge, complex, vital issue that we may expect... oh.

I do indeed now expect that President 'only if it's going to look good' O will swing by to bestow blessings on a bit of a thing... and no one present, observing or hoping to be adequately informed will end up having the slightest clue who has committed to what and whether it will make a blind bit of difference - save to boost business and first class seat uptake, convention hotel and 5 star restaurant bookings, and a few folks' golf handicaps. These things always seem to happen, a lot, in nice places.

Meanwhile populations will grow, economies will need to expand, forests will be felled, green fields will turn first brown and then get concreted over, affordably, runways will be added, nukes will get commissioned... and a BBC 'science' moppet will point at the business end of a Tesla as others will Copenhagen and declaim 'Look... it's not emitting, and meeting all sorts of lovely bonus-driving, fine-avoiding, lobby-pleasing targets'. So long as such things make sense environmentally and practically in complement with other socio-economic parameters, fine. If not, its just a silly game, with the only winners being those on the pitch and a few in the sponsors' and media boxes, with the rest paying.

D'ACCORD (#65)

#63 Barrie

No it is not pedantic it is very important. Large areas of rainforest are being cut down for farming eg raising beef, soya, biofuels etc.

Complex ecosystems that have evolved over more than 100 million years, which are essential to the fabric of the whole ecological life support system of the planet are being lost.

The farm land from the clearings only remains fertile for a couple of years. eg until all the nutrients have been lost from the burning of the forest.

Related to Copenhagen and emission reduction the public is being mislead by Governments, media and the market system regarding carbon trading. Talk of planting trees in a monoculture system as carbon storage etc. All being brought in through the lack of understanding of how the planet really works by the public.

By taking a sloppy approach to the understanding of ecology, we devalue the complex beauty of nature. The diversity of the TRF is in part a response to the poor and low fertility of the soils.

The soils are poor which is why the rainforest is complex.

Celtic Lion

#64 Brightyoungthing

But now you have the opportunity of making other public speeches.

You will be able to address an audience and say despite the poor and infertile soils, the result of the rainforest is beauty and complexity.

How the plant and animal communities in one interwoven response make the most of their reliance and interconnectedness with each other. How despite the poor soil the tallest tree will grow.

It is not the resources we have or the amount we consumer but what we, together as a community do with them that defines what we can achieve.

etc etc

From soils you could go into rainfall and transpiration from leaves. Up to 80% of rainfall is created by the forest. Rainforests did not grow where the rain fell. They made the rain to enable them to grow and produce the best conditions for all of the rainforest community to thrive and achieve their best potential. etc etc

https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0906.htm

Rainforest ecology could add a whole new dimension to philosophy and speech making. It is something Dawkins does not understand. In the Selfish Gene he showed his ignorance of ecology and the interconnected cycles that support all life.

North of most contributors to this blog but south of you. When I stand on the hills that surround the town and look north on the horizon is Lochnagar. Then the land drops to Braemar and Balmoral.

Right on the very edge of the Highlands. I need only to walk one mile, cross one road and the track starts climbing the first foothill of the Grampians.

Celtic Lion

Cheers Celtic #68
BUT....

'...But now you have the opportunity of making other public speeches.'

What do you know that I don't.........


'....the poor and infertile soils, the result of the rainforest is beauty and complexity.'

Absolutely! So too the Grampian mountains and streams (torrents!), the norfolk reed beds, cornish tors, limestone pavements of north yorkshire and so on and so on ad infinitum.

I recall (still have) a picture of a blue whale bearing the legend 'He roams the seas in freedom, with no enemy save man!'

So strange how we (mankind) are both purveyors and destroyers of such natural beauty. In order to what - stuff our faces with another MaccyD?

So, R U Angus??

FERTILE IS AS FERTILE DOES - SECOND GO (#63)

My dictionary (Collins) seems to define 'fertile' as 'where stuff grows'. That is why I asked the question - you remember the one - the one you didn't answer. Hence my title line.

PS - The pedantry point was humorous and oblique. Were you a true pedant, you would see richly afforested areas as 'fertile' methinks. Or maybe you will be contacting Mr Collins?

All down to too much time on my hands really!

#69 Brightyoungthing

Blairgowrie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3K4j9ZuSEI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Tb2r5ec6E

or

Der der der der der dun dern Angus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBXHZNSUtyg

#70 Barrie

PEDANTIC PEDOLOGY

--However some people take pride in being pedants, notably among them Oliver Kamm, a columnist for The Times who observed, "What used to be standard English is now often regarded as finicky. My pedantry is an insistence on reasonable accuracy".--

From Wikipedia Pedant

BYT specifically used the words 'fertile soil'. Which is to what I addressed my reply.

Now soil is part of the ecosystem. A rainforest ecosystem is the most productive on the planet. In terms of CO2 fixation, assimilation into biomass.

It has a high productivity.

But the soil, part of the system, has a low fertility, it terms of nutrient retention etc. The productivity of the rainforest is high because the community is adapted to low soil fertility.

The ecosystem could be considered highly productive or perhaps even 'refer to the whole system as fertile'. But in specifically addressing the soil componant. This has low fertility. As shown by trying to grow other crops in the soil. Yields will decrease until failure of the crop results.

Fertile is as fertile does, applies to a whole TRF system, but not to the isolated componant of the soil alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_%28soil%29

I YIELD CELTIC. (#72)

Beaten by the 'soil' - as aren't we all.

#73 Barrie

Well we all seem to end up there one way or another. All flesh is grass, dust to dust or whatever.

Celtic Lion

BS/Celtic

Thank goodness you boys have stopped fighting.

I took my correction manfully and shall undertake to be much more careful in future, especially when impressionable young minds are my audience.

But seriously, If I wanted to remove the contradiction/incorrect terminology and making the brief and now outdated text more accurate, could I do so by removing the word ‘rain’. Does the analogy work in a ‘forest’? I had always vaguely understood that the constant build up and rotting down cycle of vegetable and animal remains provided a vital life source through the release of chemical nutrients (I am NO Scientist believe me!) and therefore a certain ‘fertility’ would follow.

The alternative would be to replace the word ‘fertile’. With???

I guess I was also trying to convey the cyclical nature of the environment.

Celtic

I guessed Kirriemuir or Blairgowrie. I claim my prize.

I can look out of my front window, due west to Strathfinella hill, the Howe of the Mearns (Sunset Song) due south and at the end of my glen walk can see Clachnaben.

If you are an avid newshound and were in Scotland on 7 Jan this year, I reside in the village with NO pub!’

#75 Brightyoungthing

RAINforest tends to refer to tropical rain forest. Tropical implies high temperatures. The high temperature means decomposition is at the same rate as deposition, so no build up of humus in the soil.

Forest on it's own gives an impression of forest other than tropical, temperate, boreal, seasonal etc.

Here with the lower temperatures soil fertility is increased by the increase of humus. Deposition exceeding decomposition. For fertile soil, this is mostly synonymous with a type called Brown Earths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_earth

These are associated with deciduous temperate woodland/forest. The type which covered lowland UK since the last ice age. Once cleared of trees this gives the highly fertile soil associated with UK agriculture.

As latitude or altitude is increased such as Scotland the deciduous gives way to evergreen coniferous. Boreal to Taiga forest. The soils are more acidic and less fertile, one reason being lower temperatures preventing full decomposition of organic matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga

This is most evident in peat soils. These are an example of storage ecosystems. Deposition of plant matter exceeds decomposition leading to the build up of thick reserves. Also the acidic nature prevents breakdown of organic matter, hence bronze age bodies and artifacts found preserved in peat.

So the answer to your question is when you just use the term forest, if you are referring to 'temperate deciduous forest'. Then the associated soil will be the 'fertile brown earth' type.

Celtic Lion

#76 Celtic

Ah yes, Pete Bog! I remember him well.

I see the distinction clearly now. Cheers. Seemples when you know how! I just needed to keep it local.

So, can I raise the Peat debate since you mentioned the word.
Like many old houses hereabouts we have peat cutting rights on the Cairn'o'Mount, although no-one to my knowledge takes any advantage.

But, in gardening there is a huge ethical
/ecological debate about peat vs alternatives.

Your clear view, if there is one clearer than peaty water in a mountain burn (Mmmmmm) would be interesting.

#77 Brightyangthing

CAIRN O MOUNT -GREAT WORKING EXPERIENCES OF MY LIFE

A couple of year ago I worked on the Laurencekirk sewage works over winter. We always had to watch C'O'M. It was a few miles north with fields in between. It used to white out, the blizzard would move towards us. As it got near someone would shout the warning just before the horizontally driven snow and buffeting winds hit us.

The warning was to give us time to hold on or get off the scaffolding. It was below freezing all the time but in the afternoon when the sun disappeared behind the hills the temp used to suddenly plummet, in seconds you could feel the cold getting a grip, especially if the wind got up with the icy blast from the Cairngorms to the north.

What an adventure!

Cairn O'Mount oh I've been up there in winter at night, the fog has settled thick so not even the end of the bonnet of the car could be seen. Really frightening, not just a question of driving into a ditch but off the side of a mountain. I notice in Wiki they describe the road as 'adventurous'.

Peat? Well that's an issue with so many variables. You'd have to contact me to discuss that one to get any perspective on an environmental impact assessment.

Celtic Lion

#78 Celtic

So close......

Most frequently the snow hits us from the west so I spot it first as it rolls down from the top of strathfinella hill (much favoured by jet fighter pilots, using my chimney pot to line up the summit!)

At every opportunity if travelling north or west I choose the cairn road. Except of course when closed as it has been recently due to flooding. All this rain. Laurencekirk was flooded. It is usually the third scottish road to be closed due to snow, after the Corgarff to Tomintoul, and Glenshee.

Reminds me, last night as I drove back into village from A90 I almost had very fresh venison for a late dinner - straight from the bonnet! Fortunately I saw the yellow flash of eyes on the edge of the road and caution saved us all.

I had to rescue my husband from the ditch on the way up to the top a few years ago when he got a call to the highlands late one winter's night. Have also viewed two aurora's and also 2 nacreous clouds from the viewpoint. I call it a spectacular road.

Lucky lucky lucky me.

'...Peat? Well that's an issue with so many variables. You'd have to contact me to discuss that one to get any perspective on an environmental impact assessment.'

How would one do that Celtic.

Do you have a personal blog/website. Or is there somewhere where a topic specific blog/thread can be started?

#79 Glenshee

Had a health and safety course in Banchory a couple of years ago, winter had set in and had been snowing for a few weeks. The options were A90 then over Cairn O'Mount, not an option! A90 to Stonehaven etc then west across country, the long way. Or A 93 via Glenshee, in the hope the snow ploughs had been working.

Left at 5.30am. The road risers rapidly to the Highlands from here. So soon in the mountains. Just a gentle freezing fog.

Once in the hills the road follows the pass, the mountain's steep slopes on my left on the route to Braemar. Heartland FM the only radio station with all the info for farmers in the area.

Snow had rolled down the sides leaving snow boulders in the road ranging in size from footballs to small cars. I was ahead of the snow plough.

The heavy snow on the landscape and the dusting on the road rendered everything featureless. All there was was the tunnel into the fog from the headlights and the grey luminescence outside of that. The snow boulders appeared out of the mist like asteroids in a video game. To be dodged and driven around. Without sliding off the road into a luminous unknown.

Together with the buzz of, though unlikely statistically, of another large boulder of snow crashing down and knocking the car off the road.

When I got to the destination I was twitching till morning break after 3 hours of full on concentration.

One of life's great driving experiences. But also part of the pleasure of living here. Even a early morning drive can be an on the edge adventure, memories to treasure. So different from the sanitised, risk assessed, transport situations elsewhere.

Celtic Lion

#81
Nice poetic piece. Reminds me of driving back to NW London from Henley/Oxford area in my brothers car one week after passing my test. First through a snow covered cresta run type rural location then along the M40/A40 in the worst freezing fog white out I have ever experienced before or since.

Bit like first parachute jump. Discover the true colour, texture and nature of adrenalin!

'.... sanitised, risk assessed, transport situations elsewhere.'

Like the A90 around Laurencekirk. Spend billions on a fast north south link between edinburgh and Aberdeen (When we moved here L'kirk high street was the main road!) then pepper it with 50mph limits - not to save fuel but to protect bad drivers (ooh, rather non pc there!) from acciednts.

Coffee break over. Time to earn a crust and keep two teenage students in beer money!

#82 BYT

Have to say though the junction with the A90 from L'Kirk 'High Stret' wanting to turn south, in the dark, in the snow is a life affirming experience.