Friday 22 May 2009

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"Everyone fears a suicide!"
That's very kind of Naddy to be thinking of the public in this time of job loss and family breakup...
Or did she mean the thieving, hand in the till, hypocritical, untrustworthy, [typical] MP. who's been caught embellishing his/her lifestyle at the cost of thepublic?
Good riddance to bad rubbish in my oppinion. Form a suicide squad and fall on your pencils. 'Life of Brian' stylee. Any left standing will be innocent..
don't vote for 'None of the above', [R. Pryor is dead!]
Vote for me and the 'Mandate Party';o)

government is a lot worse when the clergy run it. they might not only have the same materialist vices but also insist upon and punish those subjects they deem not virtuous enough?

maybe ask him how he feels about the next head of his church being a confessed adulterer? or why the millionaire current head of the church [who can choose to pay tax or not] gets millions in subsidy merely for owning land? shouldn't tax money be for the poor and needy? not millionaire landowners?

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Proportional representation, of course.........a first requirement...NOW! And no, I'm NOT a Lib-Dem.......

I'd like to see more independents...I enjoyed Martin Bell's performances, and the independent doctor, ? Dr.Taylor.......These people have serious and good quality moral concerns, and are not likely to go off the good practice rails...

AGAINST fewer MP's....The local Constituency format maintains important personal links with people and with issues that keeps Parliament alive and relevant.....unlike European PR systems.....I would not want to lose/ dilute that. So a Proportional Representation system, but applied to local proprotionate voting totals......

Pay should be adequate,periodically reviewed independently, and take into account the individual MP's reasonable , not penny pinching, work/ life requirements of travel, rest, work fork facilities, private life...But not the daft extravanganzas or devious profiteering we are currently seeing.

And yes, independent oversight. I would like to see Elizabeth Filkin recalled to take the lead on this...I thought her removal was a pretty shameful expression of the selfserving interests of some of today's expense abusers....She was impressive whilst she was around..... And no, I do not know her....

And I can't see why some of the worst current culprits could not be made to stand down for by elections NOW....in equally balanced party numbers..... It would give us as voters a chance to spout current fury flying around, so when we get to the proper elections in 2009, we can focus on the bigger national perspectives of civil rights, economy, housing, education, foreign policy, and no longer be blinded by just focussing individuals, their egos, strengths or shortcomings....as we are doing now. Lance the boil!....
Eurogoblin

Fewer MPs? Yes.
Better pay?Definitely not. MPs have shown contempt for the public that pays their salaries and allowances, and they must not be allowed to benefit as a result of their appalling behaviour.
Proportional representation? Yes, then maybe we'd get more government by consensus. And to those who say that the governement would be less powerful - Good!
More scrutiny? Yes, obviously, in the light of what they've been getting up to when they weren't scrutinized.
More independents? Yes. The existing party system, particularly the whipping system, is very bad for the country.

Considering that most MPs are involved in the really nice activities that Newsnight reported on in Kosovo a few weeks ago but now should not be memtioned I find it difficult to regard MPs generously taking money off our hands worthy of serious consideration.

It appears the BBC would not like me to express an opinion of the appropriate punishment for nice British MPs though they have often suggested such a fate for presumably also nice foreign leaders. Even about that nice Mr Hitler whom it would certainly be against BBC guidelines to accuse of ever doing anything improper.

Public Relations: The art of making the inherently unpleasant appear more pleasant.

Fewer MP's (and lords) and councellors too, 30% fewer.. i seriously do not think it would be noticed.

MP's pay is a tricky one, either you pay them nothing at all or you have to pay them a wage in line with their responsibility. A chief exec of a local authority often gets paid 2 or three times the prime ministers salary.. lets not even talk about spiv bankers!! From the outside being an MP looks like an awful job, everybody hates you and you dont get paid a huge ammount (may as well screw the expenses then!!). This view will not be popular but i think we should have fewer MPs but they should be paid more with an element of performance related pay involved, to an extent that it does attract those with real talent to join up and run the country as oppose to the delusional do -gooders, power junkies and egoists we have now.

Nobody complains about a talented chief exec who brings a good work ethic and profitability to a company being well paid for his success but an MP..Dont ask me how performance related pay for MP's would work but its an idea at least.

Here is another unpopular idea I support - partial state funding for major political movements. People hate this idea but it would stop them being bought out by external non democratic influence such as the unions or high finance.


Proportional representation I support also it would simply make it fairer, encourage more hung parliaments and the required constructive debate that comes from that rather than the childish barracking and party wipping we see running the country now on masogonic party lines.


More independant candidates would also help, I think you would get more of them comming forward if MPs were paid more and being an MP was seen to have an honuorable position in society.


Secure bespoke accomodation for MPs who live outside of london should be built close to westminster to stop all this second home expenses nonsence. Watching the home secretary of the worlds 5th largest economy going home to doss down in her sisters back bedroom for a few extra quid is ...well a bit demeaning to the country really, the security arrangements for that must cost a fortune and be risky. I assume there are special branch officers permanently assigned to her and the neighbours in the street are regularly vetted to make sure one house is not being turned into a bomb or something..its just bizarre!!

Finaly we should have a president, elected mid parliamentary term. Keep royalty as a state figurehead I like the tradition associated with it but we need afigure to get behind outside of party politics and who has been appointed by the nation.


Will that do for starters?

Dont know why i bother nobody ever pays attension to elephants in the room as everybody knows.

Jericoa

Here's what I reckon: Spin doctors of all three parties have advised their masters that something must be done after the bailing out of the Private Financial Sector with Public cash and no legal control by HMG over the obscene bonuses in the bailed out Financial Services whilst taxpayers' jobs, savings and pensions etc are nose-diving, as it's not good politics at all with imminent European elections and a General Election just a year off. The hand-wringing and expenses issues amount to subterfuge to make politicians look better than they are at a time when we've seen them to be powerless, by their own design. They are scared of statism - e.g. the BNP.

They are all good at the art of 'expectation management'. That's politics.

Come on NN! The last - but for how much longer - serious news analysis programme on the TV MUST surely maintain a secular stance?

In 2009 do we really ask a church representative for moral guidance?

Religion, and all its icons and foundations are historically responsible for more deaths, crimes and dishonourable atrocities than any collective other than the Human Race itself .... and NN asks for its opinion!

Rent-a-soundbites, DJs and Episcopalians ....... Doh!

You have a regular MPs Panel that is not afraid to talk solely on Party lines....

Why not a regular GB Public Panel?

There are surely enough volunteers out here!

#10 expectation management = politics

That is really a depressing thought.

Is 10 weeks enough time ?

With recent polls saying that the British Electorate demand an early General Election , 54% for, 38% against and 8% don't knows (ITN Populous Poll), when should it be held ?

I think 7 weeks is long enough for the political parties to discover which of their candidates are a election liability and which are not. That would leave 3 weeks for electioneering purposes before the big day at the end of July or the start of August.

I would also like to suggest that for the maximum possible turnout the election day should be on a Sunday and given that time of year the weather should be most favourable too.

The quicker Mr Brown can make his intentions known the better it will be for people planning their holidays and such, example do they apply for a postal vote so they can vote a week or two early ? before they go away.

I realize the political parties will say they want more time , but really they are of secondary consideration in this matter as the peoples voice needs to be heard to take some of the steam out of this issue.

Let's start to draw a line under this crisis , we will hear what the parties are offering in regard to reform when the electioneering starts and they start to issue their manifestos.

Then it will be up to the Great British Public to decide , can you get more democratic than that ?

Maybe then we can refocus on the other pressing issues of the day , that if we are not lucky will hit us all like a ton of bricks and just as quick.

Of course we don't want a McCarthyite witch-hunt ...... but given that the tax-payer has cleaned the moat and the duck-pond .................

Just an idea for a bit of Bank Holiday fun!

Nadine Dorries talks a lot of hot air, she was on Victoria Derbyshires programme this morning on BBC 5live and was floundering from start to finish, ranting on about MP's being suicidal, when we all know it is because they were CAUGHT, pure and simple. Her own party are just as guilty only with the Labour majority being greater they have more dodgy claims but on a pro rata basis they are both the same. Once she was questioned by listeners, she disappeared...obviously told by senior Tory figures to stop digging...

Direct elections for executive President, an elected second chamber of 100, senate style, an elected - via proportional representation- first chamber of 400, reflecting the already devolved powers to Scotland, Wales and N Ireland, open candidate primaries, more real power devolved to localities, towns, cities, mayors and councils.

No increase in salary - £60K+ is a very well remunerated post; stay at hotels in London for the 120+ days they'll be there, perhaps putting the Olympic site to good use.

Conservative and LibDems seem to be picking up the vibe, but Labour still in denial; the long dark night of ineffectual Opposition beckons.

We must rid our political systems once and for all of notions such as that recently expressed by ex-Speaker Martin, viz. that he wished to "hand over" the Glasgow North East costituency to his son, who is already an MSP; we must expunge all thoughts of representative democracy in this country being some kind of gravy train nepotism.

We need a clean slate and a General Election in the autumn of this year.

What is to be done? Well, dead easy (the basics at least). it was all worked out in Philadelphia in 1787:

(Small proviso: the monarch remains our symbolic head of state to keep the tourists coming and something for middle england to coo over)

but nevertheless...

Separate legislature and executive
Directly elected Prime Minister/President
ANY member of the executive unable to sit in the legislature
SERIOUS power given to MPs, an elected Lords, all MPs selected by primaries
Elections for Legislature by Transferable Vote elections (like London mayoral election) and/or PR system.
Stronger local govt with less quangos (a British federal local government with real powers).
Less MPs (say 350 - 400 in House of Commons and another 250 in the Lords)
Committees with real teeth and power of subpoena and sanction (to refer directly to a higher court - Law Lords or Supreme Court) and power to appoint ex-officio non MPs to advise
Grand juries
Fixed term elections

in short, there's a pretty decent off-the-peg answer (with some improvements, additions and amendments no doubt for these islands and some 222 years of testing and piloting for this country to eventually enter the modern age) to be found here: https://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

and of course a Bill gf Rights

the US system isn't perfect but, boy, is it better than the pathetic Victorian psuedo medieval mess we have over here. The final indictment of our "ancient way" of doing things was exposed by the grotesque farce of the Lumley Affair. We aren't a real democracy, we're a joke democracy, not worthy of the name really. The mother of Parliament (to perpetuate the misquotation) is exposed by an entertainer and a newspaper editor as impotent, rotten and utterly unfit for purpose.

Now, a little speech:

"Ahem... We are at a crossroads in our political history. By accident and blundering for sure, but we are where we are. Despite the spin, squalor and banalities of our politics we still have decent, honest, and, yes, 'honorable' men and women in public life with whom, once the stables have been cleansed, we can join, and move forward. For those who have the courage and the influence and the determination it is an exciting time. True, we face difficult weeks, months and years ahead as we strive to revive our economic and social strength. But, once the blood-letting is over, let's all dust ourselves down, and, working together, survivors and citizens, with open eyes, we can build a new politics. A politics that is without the old dusty flummeries of yore, but, instead, one that is decent and durable, one that faces the future squarely and bravely, one that honours the past at the same time as leaving it behind, one that lets in the light and, most important of all, one that gives back to us, the British citizen, something very simple and very precious: sovereignty."

BROWN IS NOT LOOKING APPROPRIATELY ROGERED

Might he have done a mental McCavity? If he were conscious of the whole terrible mess, and his part in it, he would be wrecked. Well - that is to say, any normal person would be wrecked.

What is/isn't going on in the Brown head? AND WHERE MIGHT IT LEAD!

barrie (#18) "What is/isn't going on in the Brown head?"

Excusing your obscene mentalism...Implementing the advice of his new ever more cunning advisor(s), it would seem.

"AND WHERE MIGHT IT LEAD!"

I can't wait, whatever it is!

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

What a dreadful bunch of apologists you managed to assemble tonight to debate what to do about the crooks in Westminster ..... Have you people
forgotted that 'bools in the mooth' Malcolm Rifkind was kicked out of
Scotland for his arrogance in trying to rule this country with no democratic mandate WHATSOEVER? - yet Newsnight London still turns
to the MP for Kensington for his thoughts on democracy? Outrageous!

As for Peter Hain: who had to resign over electoral and accounting irregularities in his Deputy Leadership campaign? A busted flush !!

You also turn to the Bishop of Rochester who would not of course be
able to sit in The House of Lords if he were Scottish or a Catholic?

And then we get 'the Newsnight panel' - and that appallingly elitist
Matthew 'I was Tony Blair's advisor' Taylor arguing against elections?

Dreadful, dreadful stuff Newsnight!

FOUR RASPBERRIES IN A ROW? (#20 21 22 23)

And the one that JJ has blown me (#19) makes five! I think the Blogdog and I deserve to have our tummies tickled.

So, Nadine Dorris, or what's-her-name as she should be known, has complained about the relentless coverage of 'expenses' claims. Am I supposed to care what - hang on, what's her name, again? - thinks? Frankly, I think each MP's outrageous claims quite rightly require the Daily Telegraph's level of coverage and if a few MPs squirm, all the better. Long may it continue.

I walked past a defunct "Woolies" today and noticed someone had pushed a government 'flu' leaflet through one of the letterboxes. Could this be, simply, an unfortunate mistake or an example of government incompetence? Discuss...in not more than one-hundred words.

Some of this year's 'Cannes' films have been accused of misogyny and so what if they are? They are just films. You can take them or leave them, but you won't spontaneously become a misogynyst because of them. Believe it or not, we are not the product of film, we are the product of our education and upbringing.

I love Kirsty's pronunciation of "Gainsbourg".

THE MATTHEW TAYLOR PHENOMENON (#24)

I have never found Mr Taylor very impressive - he doesn't seem to add anything; just looks earnest. Further, since his Tony has emerged as a fully accredited fruit-cake, and pulled eye-watering feats of deviousness and stupidity in his reign, how can any of his advisors (a) show their faces and (b) get jobs requiring competence? It just HAS to be part of the whole malaise, of which fiddled money is just a small part, does it not?

Earlier, we had yet more Kenneth Clarke on Any Questions. What is the underlying rationale of calling on a purveyor of products bringing sickness and death to the masses, to comment on purloiners of cash FROM said masses? Is the idea to show, obliquely, just what contempt we are held in by the political classes?

We're devoting all of Newsnight tonight to considering how far the British political system can and should change as a result of the upheavals of the past two weeks.



No matter how you change the political system it will never work.

This is because some overall conceptualisation of where mankind and this planet as a whole is going has never been addressed in the popular mass conscience.

If you do not know where you are going you will never get there. No matter how you decide how to get there.

These are some quotes from Jericoa, from the thread on Paul Mason's that Hawkeye Pierce recommended. For anyone new to Eschatology and thermodynamics I second Hawkeye's opinion, this is a good primer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2009/05/welcome_to_shizuishan_city.html

"It is not easy but I just feel humanity is not asking the right questions and therefore will not get the right answers to move on from where we are at the moment."

"Where is the vision in the world for us to move onto something else, it is surely time to be at least thinking about it!"


We do not have any leaders political or otherwise. Leadership implies the knowledge of a destination and the route and method to get there.

Increasing high levels of economic growth, is not a destination. It is a mantra chanted over and over again by all of them. A chant that few ask the question, why?

Look at the infinity and eternity of our existence. Look at the night sky. Look at the beauty and complexity of our planet. Look at life and the potential for our evolution into the future.

When a politician stands in front of you and offers high levels of economic growth. Do not be afraid, say, "is that all you can offer, clear off".

There are alternative and better realities. Do not allow the political class to convince you there is only one. The one they are stuck in and do not have the vision to see out of.

Our destiny is infinite and eternal, do not be bought off by the promise of 'economic growth' when compared to the totality of existence you can have in your hand.

When the doors of perception are cleansed, man will see things as they truly are, infinite. William Blake


Celtic Lion

I hope David Grossman will at some point extract from the Inland Revenue a definitive explanation of page 31 para beginning "Which is the 'main residence'?" in their 2004/5 advice pamphlet for MPs and Ministers. On
which clause of the Finance Bill was this advice based? Who authorised
publication of this advisory leaflet? Oh and who was Chancellor of The Exchequer in 2004? I am sure that Hazel Blears wants some answers too!

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8060352.stm

SPIN CYCLE

Strugglingtostaycalm (#26) "So, Nadine Dorris, or what's-her-name as she should be known, has complained about the relentless coverage of 'expenses' claims. Am I supposed to care what - hang on, what's her name, again?"

Have a closer look at what she says here ('What Stephan said and Martin Bell knew', and adjacent posts from her) and my posts to the blog the blog yesterday and before on subterfuge ;-).

I can't wait for a Tory Government/election for all those who blog on this site will have nothing to say, as all our troubles will be over as Cameron sweeps into power smirking and promising all over his face.
If I was a public servant in the public sector I would be very afraid.
I am not repeating my blog made some 6 months ago but just to remind you of a few.
The privatisation of schools and hospitals as they are all put into Trusts.(This Tory Govt. is doing this anyway) The end of national pay scales-you negotiate your own worth. The end of Final salary pensions you may recall what I call the "equality of misery" theory-if we can't have it the neither can you debate.
Anyway I heard it all the last few weeks, getting boring as well as bullying. Soon the Euro election will put my party and Brown in a turmoil again so the debate will move on until the election which, despite all your wishes, will be at the bitter end of next June.

The politicians know they have at least another 12 months to plan for some of their "early retirements". Then we might get back a Labour Party that looks after the rest of us rather than the City and Bankers.

Billbradbury (#31) "I can't wait for a Tory Government/election for all those who blog on this site will have nothing to say"

Please explain/expand.

THE MORAL COMPASS

Looking under the social networking rocks can buzz one's compass.

THE MORAL COMPASS II: ANARCHISM 101

"London - The British government said Friday it had given 10 million pounds (15.8 million dollars) in immediate aid to Pakistan to help refugees fleeing the fighting in the Swat Valley. The release of the aid, announced earlier by Prime Minister Gordon Brown, was confirmed Friday by International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander.

It is in addition to 12 million pounds given for the same purpose since last November."

The UK electorate is whipped up into outrage over 12 million pounds ACA for MPs being spent on things which they don't approve of, but 22 million pounds of taxpayers' money spent on Pakistan's problems since last November, not a problem....

The Earth Times Friday 22nd May 2009

Meanwhile.....catch/save Nadine's cached blog whilst you can....

"According to the Telegraph online, David Cameron has slapped me down? Excuse me? Err, no he hasnbt. What a corker.

The Daily Telegraph has rang Central office and asked them to ask me to remove my blog and not to mention the contents of my blog on air, which I think, is very different." Nadine Dories - Friday 22nd May

#34JJ

Strange how we picked up on the Norris story yesterday morning before it appeared as the opener for the Friday NN.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/05/thursday_21_may_2009.html

Are they actually reading our comments or did we just get the 'Oh eer' right.

Celtic Lion

#34 JJ

Sorry JJ the Norris Blog seems to have been shut down in it's entirety, can't get in using any of our links or via search engines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/05/thursday_21_may_2009.html

Do you think those that only read it will be 'shut down'?

Oh eer

Celtic lion

Got It JJ

I knew this suicide story had 'broke' before. This is from April

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1175249/Love-cheat-MPs-suicide-watch-expense-claims-threaten-expose-affairs.html

The suicide bit of Norris' blog was in fact old news that had been reported then forgotten.

When I read the post yesterday I skimmed over that bit, it was old news for me.

It was the rest of the post which made me go 'Oh eer'. There appears to be media management going on. The reports appear to be it was the suicide bit of the the Norris post that has got it pulled.

I think it was the other bit. Why take such action now over a month old news story? Unless you don't want the other bit given coverage.

Celtic Lion

SURELY IT WAS TRANSPARENTLY OBVIOUS (OR IS DYSGENESIS THAT BAD)?

KingCelticLion (#35-#37) It doesn't really matter how the story broke, what matters is that MPs' ACA is authorised in lieu of a higher salary and isn't much in the grand scheme of things - so the entire 'expenses' story should really be seen as just another example of spin/distriction/theatrics/subterfuge.

For my purposes, the relevent part of what she said was:

"During an interview on the R4 Today programme (and about a dozen times since) I said the following - ish:

"No Prime Minister has ever had the political courage to award MPs an
appropriate level of pay commensurate with their experience, qualifications and position; as recommended by the SSRB, year after year.
Prior to my intake in 2005, MPs were sat down by the establishment and told that the ACA was an allowance, not an expense, it was the MP's property, in lieu of pay; and the job of the fees office was to help them claim it."

Whatever opinion you may have about that, and I have my own, you cannot
ignore the fact that this was the system put into place, because no Prime
Minister ever, including my heroine, has had the political courage to address the issue. Everyone in the political and media world knew it.
At a drinks party the other evening, I had a conversation with Stephan
Shakespeare the owner of YouGov. I put to him that MPs prior to my intake had been told for many years that the ACA was in lieu of pay.
"Yes, we have all known that" said Stephan. "Everyone knows that, the question is how do you move forward, what will be put in its place?"
When Stephan said "we all" what he meant of course, was the political and
media establishment.

The BBC knew it. Every single journalist knew it. The interviewer on the Today programme this morning, who interviewed me, knew it; and Martin Bell probably knew it because he was given the same rule book as everyone else, when he became an MP 12 years ago. He was also, allegedly, the best friend of the Labour party as detailed in Alastair Campbell's diaries. The system was a disgrace, an appalling disgrace; but it was the system and everyone knew it.

If MPs prior to 2005 were sat down and told "this is your pot of money with your name on it, and our job is to make sure you have it as it's really part of your salary," what difference does it make what it was spent on? They had been told it was their money - their salary. It was the wrong way to do things; but it was how it was done, and been done for a long, long time - MPs knew no different."

Earlier, there was that bit about the Barclay brothers. Others have leapt on this today.

Earlier in the week, it all looked a bit too contrived to me, so I posted a satirical sketch but it was blogdogged. I'm sure it must have occurred to many. Just remember, it isn't the who, it's the what that matters.

As ever, it's healthy to be anti-narcissistic ;-)

I apologise for incorrectly spelling "misogynist" and apologise for the grammatical mistakes.

I've lashed myself as penance.

Strugglingtostaycalm (#39) Jolly good thing too. The director was, I hope you noted, German,... and he refused to explain himself to boot!

This venal behaviour is all about bullying, nepotism, power and money, nothing more.

What I'd like to know is this.....what the mp's have done is theft from the people...it's fraud....WHY ARE THEY ALLOWED TO GET AWAY WITH IT?????

If this was any other company they would be prosecuted and jailed without question.

WE ARE THE PEOPLE.....WE ARE IN EFFECT THEIR EMPLOYERS. So why is nothing being done????

These MP's have stolen from their employers in theory and from the people who are struggling to cope with every day life. If it had been a person on benefit caught for stealing from the state they'd be prosecuted. If this had been an office worker claiming for something they hadn't had they would be sacked and prosecuted. If this had been a shoplifter stealing from a shop they'd be prosecuted.....WHY ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT???? They have been caught with their fingers in the till.

It makes me very angry that for us normal folk we have to pay our own mortgages, buy our own food, fund our own transport to work...all from what pay we are given. Why are MP's any different especially when they earn, and let's be blunt here, a stupid amount of money.

When the recession hit the bank managers and executives were forced out by the goverment and blamed for the crisis this country is in.....in retrospec with the billions of pounds these MP's have stolen from the country I'd say they have more than contributed themselves to this countries dire financial problems.

The monies should be claimed back like any other institution would and the guilty persons should be charged with theft simple as.

Thank you to the whistle blower who bought this to the attention of the people they are stealing from.

A PAIR OF CHOICE CHOICES

I just saw a split-screen of the Archbishop and the arch Griffin.

When it comes to ill-founded tenets and irratonal behaviour, you can't get a Kenneth Clarke fag-paper between them.

THE WILLIAMS SETAMU AXIS OF CUCKOO

"This is not a moment for voting in favour of any political party whose core ideology is about sowing division in our communities and hostility on grounds of race, creed or colour," Williams and Setamu said.

Does the joint utterance about 'sowing division' by the leaders of a minority religious sect, tell Britain anything about a problem buried deep at the heart of its culture?

If God is in any way served by expensive fancy dress, such as these two wear (paid for by 'church money') he is a very odd god. Further, the Mote and Beam parable must surely preclude this comedy duo from comment on the misuse of funds by MPs?

The Anglican Church - in common with, but not in unity with - the Roman Catholic Church (and a few other bits) form the one true church, by virtue of 'ownership' of Jesus Christ - 'Son of God'. This DIVIDES them from the Jewish and Muslim faiths, although all three have a vague consensus regarding One God. They are further so DIVIDED from Buddhists, Confucians, Shinto, Jain, Taoist, Hindu and a host of other spiritual tenets.
DIVISION is implicit in sect-based faith. Ecumenism is lip-service, and unification, scheduled somewhere after Armageddon and the last Trump.

Is this REALLY enlightened civilisation? Small wonder we cannot manage competent governance. We are hog-tied by belief in over-dressed Tooth Fairies, with all that is implied regarding our maturity as a nation.

#43 Barrie

Amen

Celtic Lion

DELMONTE DAVE HE SAY: "PICK YOUR OWN"

But then the Tory assessment office will stamp AAA, only on those who can be 'turned' to the Tory Side.

How is that any different, in the final analysis Dave, to your scouts spotting acolytes, and then the Tory Machine forcing them on the electorate?

There is so much glaringly obvious fool-and-knave in this scam, I am beginning to wonder what they teach at Eton.

Sorry Dave - its another no-no. Let's you and your party-leader chums just go away, and WE will vote dedicated independents into Parliament, untainted by dogma, whip or shame. Thus we will SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

THE NATIONAL SYCHRONIZED FOOT-SHOOTING CONTEST?

barrie (#42) have a look at the last entry here. It's already government policy.

Then what Stalinist Arthur Scargill's party is for and against.

Finally - denial - the sine qua non for winning first prize?

OO wants A fight eh

FanDance Auntie eh

Wakey waKey Auntie eh

Get Them Off then eh Dearest Auntie

Bank Oliday Auntie Off TIT Pub befour thy All close CHEERS BBC

Following Alan Johnson s article about electoral reform, I think this should be thoroughly explored - but NOT as a party political issue, but as a cross party, parliamentary issue.

What I would like to see is:

1. Some system of proportional representation - possibly the AV Plus system.
2. A Canadian style petition system where an MP can be forced to defend his or her seat on a suitable amount of signatures from the local electorate.
3. A smaller house of commons - possibly as small as 450 to 500 MPs (though some argue for just 400)
4. A revised, far more powerful committee system where MPs like yourself can have a stronger voice on key issues that fall within your specialism (science and medicine in your case)
5. A wholly elected Second Chamber based on full blown PR.

I have written to my local MP, Phyllis Starkey to express my support for Alan Johnson and to ask her to consider his proposals and the others I have listed above.

If we want electoral reform in this country, the only way I can see it happening is to force our local MPs into taking the issue seriously.

I would strongly suggest you all write to your MPs listing what reforms YOU would like to see and asking for their opinion. If nothing else, we can then expose the die-hards who are stuck in the 18th century.

THOSE RECKLESS NORTH KOREANS EH? WHAT ARE THEY LIKE?

If there were a prize for the most reckless nuclear regime in recent years, America would win by a Dubya Mile. Clearly: "We don't do humility."

ALL TOGETHER NOW!

It appears, from their reaction, that the Wesminster cabal knew it was overdue reform - but no one said anything. Odd that . . .

"I would strongly suggest you all write to your MPs"

My MP, being typical of his breed, treats my views with judicious contempt. (This might have something to do with my standing against him in the last election.) e.g. I have spent my life in science but he still feels able to ignore my input in that area. So I will continue to try to awaken the local electorate to the undemocratic business of voting for a rosette, carried by a human rosette-stand who, on return to Westminster, is neutralised in terms of constituency needs.

barrie (#52) Are they all just whipping up some interest in politics because of imminent elections and low turnouts?

IT'S WORSE THAN THAT JJ (53)

One of the big name columnists called the current frenzy 'Inverse Diana Effect' (or something similar). I think he got it spot on.

We are so emotionally 'out of condition' that each time a suitable event impinges, we start waving and drowning. Thank God the monarchy is 'stable'.

Shiny Boy Dave is frantic to get his election in before the madness subsides. Meanwhile he trumpets global warming, swine flu and the broccoli shortage as CLEAR indication that we need a snap election.
As for his 'all comers welcome but some more welcome than others' sounds familiar to me.

Now that the New Labour think-cellar have computed a small advantage in going for electoral reform (last flirted with by Kinocchio) it is suddenly NL policy - in the interest of better democracy. (Hollow laugh.)

Enforced enlightenment, it seems, changes behaviour but not underlying deviousness. Gunpowder anyone?

NEPOTISM AND JOBS ON THE SIDE

Panorama was unusually good tonight - enough to make one wonder whether Saddam Hussein's 'family connections' were so outrageous. Peter Hain's justification of nepotism in terms of enhanced loyalty surely has to be a classic?

barrie (#54) ..and the broccoli shortage" ROFL

This all serves one pernicious purpose which we have long been suffering from:- anarchism. We appear to essentially have a one-party system, and it's a hands-off one-party system.

Do we have a problem?

WE CERTAINLY DO STANLEY! (#57)

Science like religion is a man-made construct. It has an ineffable God: The Big Bang, saints: Newton, Einstein Hubble et al. It has Holy Scripture (the peer reviewed paper) that goes on being right, long after it is shot full of holes. And it has senior believers - 'bishops' (the IPCC - say) who should know better, and the greater mass of folk who do not understand its 'Latin'. Then there is Susan. (:o)

Yes Houston - we have a problem. (Indeed, that shuttle brought down by a 'wobbly camera' during re-entry, proves the point.)

Subtle
Connivance
Influences
Every
Notionally
Conscientious
Enquiry

CAMERON: POWER TO (DISEMPOWER) THE PEOPLE

He's at it again. How can texting people on progress of Bills help? One has to effectively have the skills/ability of a lawyer to even follow a Bill as it goes through parliament, i.e pretty high verbal intelligence, following is not contributing - this is pseudo-consultancy. More generally, devolving to the people is just cynical a way of speading power in such a way that it disempowers the state, i.e promotes anarcho-anarchism, i.e deregulation. Cameron's appeal is an appeal to not_very_bright_people's vanity.

NEW DAVE - NEW STANCE - SAME LIE

Spot on JJ. Anyone who has ever woken from a bad dream, with relief - only to find the waking was dreamed and they are still asleep, might recognise Shiny Boy Dave's manoeuvre. Dave lives within the democratic lie. Having been found out - to a degree - he moves flamboyantly to a different part of the lie, proclaiming 'transparency'. Of course - it never occurs to the Proles that something transparent CANNOT BE INSPECTED! We need ILLUMINATION of the dark crevices where political pathogens lurk, if needy, unscrupulous have-to-bes are to be eliminated from governance.


THE PIGS THAT DIDN'T BARK

The Westminster wallow comprises ALL parties. The instant cognizance of its shortcomings, by so many MPs, smacks of PRIOR KNOWLEDGE. All but the new and the stupid, in that Palace of Complicities KNEW exactly what was going on. NOT ONE was prepared to sacrifice their cosy sinecure to the greater good of this country. This would be a valid line of questioning by Newsnight. Even lovely Vince stands indicted in these terms.

The advantage to ordinary people that has accrued from recent revelations, must not be hijacked by the Machiavellian forces of party politics. This is OUR REVOLT; they must settle for just being revolting.

SPOIL PARTY GAMES

(erratum (#59) devolving to the people is just a cynical way of so thinly speading power that it disempowers the state, i.e further promotes anarcho-capitalism, i.e deregulation. Cameron's appeal is an appeal to not_very_bright_people's vanity and can only make what has gone before even worse.

#60 barriesingleton

"The advantage to ordinary people that has accrued from recent revelations, must not be hijacked by the Machiavellian forces of party politics. This is OUR REVOLT"

Actually most of the people who are outraged by the expenses scandal are democrats - not far right BNP voters. They don't want a lot to do with you or your poetry.

I didn't realise until the weekend that Griffin and Hitler share an unusual characteristic - they, allegedly, shot themselves in the head.

Hitler did it as the Russians were just down the street, Griffin shot himself in the head and lost his eye, allegedly, with a shotgun cartridge.

A very inspiring characteristic in a leader.

So the BNP rise to dizzy heights of power and in a few years after Europe is ravaged by war, they lose and as the troops approach the Griffin bunker they hear:


Bang ... "Damn, missed"
Bang ... "Damn, missed"
Bang ... "Damn, missed" etc

#56 Jaded_Jean

"We appear to essentially have a one-party system, and it's a hands-off one-party system."

Meanwhile the BNP and the far right Hitler lovers who are against democracy would have a hands on one-party system that emulated Hitler.

You should tell people of your race "realism", Holocaust Agnosticism, eugenics and a planned economy.

I was disappointed that Cameron did not seize the chance to consider electoral reform.

But then if I was being cynical thats good for the Lib Dems who I vote for.

There is an appetite for change and ensuring that the kind of smug complacency that disengages voters (Brown on U-Tube trying to kill the expenses storm at birth) isn't possible. As it is the pendulum keeps swinging backwards and forwards ever more violently. Positive ideas can't surface as people get elected for what they are not - NOT Labour this time, NOT Tory last time.

But that isn't good for the country and creates the conditions where MPs think they are untouchable and a cut above the mob and worth those little extras that expenses bring.

Genuine reform in a system where we have a constitutional monarchy means that we expect the institution that is failing to reform itself.

To me sanity is a republic similar to the US where there are elected houses and checks and balances. I hate their voting system but a defined constitution seems eminently sensible.

One of the reasons why that would be difficult here is that the monarchy binds the union together.

Scotland has a referendum in 2010, and if the want away who is to say that the Welsh won't follow. Northern Ireland would not be put under any pressure but they would reflect.

Rather than have a dubious expenses system and then be shocked and horrified that it exists why not think through the prospects and try to avoid crises? Bank regulation is a good idea - it would have been better before the crash.

#60 Barrie

WHICH DAVE?

David Van Day ex of pop group Dollar and Celebrity Jungle cohabitant of Ester is potentially to stand against the above mentioned Nadine Dorris, don't understand the significance. Perhaps political analysts here will explain.

As for Ester. Well if I check by my comments some way back I have already had a Rant at her. Appearing on Question Time she lectured that us, (yes Barrie that all inclusive "I know I speak for everyone")

OH MY GOD she has just appeared on TV as I write this in an advert for ambulance chasers.

Well Ester who had just flown to Australia and back to sit in a jungle (hotel car park) lectured me to do more on climate change. Then extolled the virtues of her bloody Toyota Prius. The car that has a full life cycle analysis that does more harm to the environment than a V8 Land Rover Discovery.

Anyway all is not lost if we have a GOTCH'ALL (Government of the celebs having a luvvie laugh) then I am going to apply for the job as Chief Scientific Advisor.

Hold on you say. Weren't you one of the scientists who set up the new generation of UK climate models. Didn't you produce the only accurate model of the outcome of FMD in March 2001. Didn't Al Gore quote your work on climate change, weren't you responsible for the foundation of the agenda for the 2005G8. Didn't you run R&D projects for the MOD at the age of 19.

So where is your credibility to advise a GOTCH'ALL?

Ha Ha when I was showing young bands in the north west how to organise gigs, some unknown band from manchester called Simply Red wanted me to be their technical and tour manager. I even advise Greenpeace how to stage live concerts before they took over the co-promotion of Glastonbury Music Festival in 1990. See I am qualified.

Now we can get rid of that dreadful, The Only Way is Up by D-REAM we have our new anthem. BNP take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXX-iA-UQIQ

Barrie, see what you have started.

Celtic Lion

Where is McBride? Do the media know and won't say? Do Labour know and won't say? Does Gordon Know and won't say?

The House of Commons committee doesn't know where McBride is so they can't ask questions about the email smear campaign.

Is Alan Johnson working on his speech and if Brown has to resign how does he handle having said that Brown "was better than him".

Lets hope not.

Though as ever Brown is not the hideous BNP that pollute this page.

thegangofone (#64) "Meanwhile the BNP and the far right Hitler lovers who are against democracy would have a hands on one-party system that emulated Hitler."

Just remember, the right wing believes in minimal government, so the extreme right wing are anarchists. Hitler was a left wing politican - a national socialist like Stalin.

Those who want to encourage more right-wing policies (e.g. economic deregulation aka the anarchistic free-market) preach freedom from the state. Such parties are keen to decentralise power (cf. Cameron, Blair). Why? Might it be that this curbs big business?

Through the Conservatives, New Labour, or Liberal-Democrats, the UK/EU, like the Internet, will become become more fragmented, more Balkanized, i.e. more uncontrollable/anarchistic, rendering consumers/users easy to prey upon by business which grows and consolidates like Topsy. You will note that it is left-wing regimes which try to control their ISPs and markets/populations, in order to protect their people from predators.

This is the way to think about Hitler in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. It's also how to think about N Korea and Iran today. You have to see past the propaganda the West feeds one every day. These countries were (and still are) fighting off subversives.

Was Scargill a right wing politician?

Think where the birth dearth currently is in Europe. Is it amongst the brighter people, or is it amongst the less brighter people (hint 1/3 female graduates remain childless)? What will more low-skilled immigration increase the numbers of? Who will that democide benefit?

Have you (like many others) been had? Or you are trying to con others? Would you know the difference? Will you ever listen to those who try to educate you?

'Rooks have a remarkable aptitude for using tools, scientists have found.

Tests on captive birds revealed that they could craft and employ tools to solve a number of different problems. '

Meanwhile the BNP have to choose a photo for their campaign backdrop.

The Latter Day Haw Haws choose a Spitfire - Hitler would have revolved in his grave, or perhaps hell.

So could an indigenous rook rise to the top of the party?

Have the Holocaust "Agnostics" of the BNP put together a team yet to go to the Djemjanjuk trial?

Djemjanjuk may be innocent or guilty.

But if there was no crime then there is no criminal.

If there was no Holocaust there were no Holocaust guards.

Will his comrades desert him?

Nobody will go to defend him as they know the truth full well and the far right will shift attention to some new lie.

There is a piece in the Independent:

'Father Patrick Desbois is a man desperately racing with death. By his own calculations he has six, perhaps seven years at the outside in which to complete his work: a task, which until the reaper renders it impossible some time in the not-too-distant future, is at once unimaginably chilling in nature and nightmarishly ambitious in scale. For the 53-year-old French priest, with an easy laugh and shining eyes, has made it his holy mission to recall for the world the slaughter enacted by the Nazi mobile death squads, the feared Einsatzgruppen, which roamed and murdered Jews and Gypsies with impunity in the remote villages of the former Soviet Union between 1941 and 1944.'

Worth a piece on Newsnight? You have read the far right posters on this page claim there was no Holocaust.

If anyone is interested in seeing Mr Cameron's full speech today , here it is, unedited.

I hope when we see a manifesto there will be something about a constituency being able to recall their MP , maybe along the lines of this.

An interesting piece in the Observer by Nick Cohen:

'They do not think its strategy of dressing thugs in suits is working and nor do I. Not the least of the BNP's problems is that Nick Griffin was caught on camera at a meeting with the former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke explaining how he would seek to con the public by using warm words - freedom, security, identity, democracy.

"Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we've got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcasting media, the British people might change their mind and say, 'Yes, every last one must go.' But if you offer that as your sole aim to start with, you're gonna get absolutely nowhere. So, instead of talking about racial purity, we talk about identity." '

The BNP trying to influence the media? But where? Are they effective?

Nah!

Second try, the last one broke the url , maybe too long ?
With the help of tinyurl this time here's my second try.

If anyone is interested in seeing Mr Cameron's full speech today , here it is, unedited.

I hope when we see a manifesto there will be something about a constituency being able to recall their MP , maybe along the lines of this.

thegangofone (#72) Try to look at this rationally. The Task Force, or Special Force Groups A to D comprised relatively small units of between 1000 (Group A) to 500 men (Group D) led by PhDs. Sometimes they are described as 'mobile killing units'. This was during a war remember, and they all had to get from A to B (i.e. from Germany, Eastwards) i.e they were soldiers who had to a) move and b) kill. This is what happens in wars. If they were stationary they wouldn't have gone anywhere. If they hadn't killed anyone, it would hardly have been much of a war.

It also happened in Korea, in Vietnam, and in Iraq. Did you see the ships and planes. Mobile killing units. Tanks too. Did anyone describe US Special Forces or UK SAS/Commandos as 'mobile killing units'? Why not? Secondly, bear in mind that just because one is Jewish doesn't mean that one can't be considered an enemy (hard to imagine I know, but still, try OK?). The Germans were fighting against Jewish-Bolshevism and their financiers plus the COMINTERN (That's Communist Internaional, a 'conspiracy' to take over the world you know.....) They, like the Japanese (and other Axis Powers) considered these COMINTERN folk (very Jewish - see names) a great threat.

Another perspetive, when 'Bomber Harris' had his RAF bomb Dresden (and other German cities - no doubt for their own good?), and when the USAF bombed Tokyo etc (or in a later war, Hanoi etc) 'to set them free', were they in 'mobile killing units'? Millions of Germans were killed by the liberating allies (and they continued to die after the war too, just like people in Iraq). Was any of that a war crime? Why isn't the USA or Israel signed up to the ICC today? Odd isn't it?

Perhaps you need to think about this, and political spin/propaganda? Perhaps you do? Perhaos you also need to look into why there are 14m Jews in the world today when there were about 15m in the 1930s. Why so many today if 6m were lost in the 1940s? Did they get found? Like other Europeans, they have a below replacement level fertility rate (overall). So how do you explain these (Jewish supplied) numbers? Might there have been a bit of jiggery-pokery to get you all worked up about the evils of statism which is bad for business? All those regulations and all can be bad for predatory lending perhaps?

Do the North Koreans eat babies and pull the wings off ducks for entertainment?

Glayde Whitney on David Duke. Just for a bit of balance.

Sadly, what Glayde Whitney had to say about Duke is statistically true.

Sadly, most people don't get to study much statistics, if at all, and if and when they do, they don't find it very easy to talk in probabilistic terms. Ask any Key Stage maths teacher. So large numbers of people think and talk all sorts of nonsense simply because they can't grasp even the basics of Probability Theory :-(

One might have expected mor of Newsnight viewers/readers/bloggers. No disrespect to the many who do understand.

DELUDED PEOPLE

Finally, an African's perspective just to complete the picture.

It appears I can only leave comments on programmes up to the 22 May, poetry on the credit crunch or the Cannes Film Festival.

Is it just me or is this a general censorship?

Celtic Lion