Friday 9th January 2009

It is interesting that much the same, seemingly blinkered, viewpoint is held not just in Israel but by Jews around the world. In a number of vox-pops on the news today Jews in this country unanimously parroted the Israeli government line; as, indeed, Muslims repeated Hamas propaganda. Has the tribe become multinational?

Israel has long been very successful in mobilising its diaspora, especially in the US; where its funding of individual members of Congress (and more viciously their opponents if they criticised Israel) has long distorted US policy in the region. It has been so successful, especially in branding opponents as racist, that it has been able to maintain an otherwise untenable position for half a century or more.

We all know how this has affected Palestinians, the region and even the wider world; and has massively contributed to the motivation behind global terrorism. The less frequently asked question, however, is what has this done for the Israelis?. If they had been more flexible earlier would they now be happily living in peace with one of the highest living standards in the world? Would they have been standard-bearers for a better future, living in peace with their neighbours, rather than fast becoming the ultimate pariahs?

despite gas prices fallng for 6 months there have been no price cuts because they say they buy on 12 monthly contracts that were established at the price spike high in july. [so they say]

yet one week of russia cutting gas that is only a fraction of uk supply and we are being groomed to expect more price rises?

the current structure of the energy market has to be the biggest scam ever to be inflicted upon the british people. yet the guardian class do nothing but lie down as doormats for foreign multinationals.


the first winter bills will be coming through the doors in the next week. there is no reason for them to be as high as they are except for profiteering.

the biggest global terrorist is to retire from office in two weeks time......

I'm really surprised that the BBC has not covered Israeli forces targeting the office of Press TV and the Iranian Arab-language satellite channel al-Alam in the Gaza Strip. By all accounts, two people were wounded in the attack.

The journalists working in the building had been given safety assurances that the building would not be targeted. It's coordinates were handed to organizations responsible for the journalist safety, including the UN.

The Press TV team said they received no warnings ahead of the Israeli air strike. Press TV is one of the only news networks providing coverage of the Israeli offensive in Gaza.

Will the BBC report this fact, or are attacks on fellow journalists from Arab country's not considered to be newsworthy?

Thanks.

leftieoddbod (#3) Do you really think anything's going to change in two weeks time given the Grey Cardinals running Obama's campaign? If it does, what's the betting on another Exodus as in the 1880s-90s?

Gavin, Blair won't answer the question because he is part of the problem.
When elected, he refused to deal with them.
Hamas had a 6 month cease fire which Israel broke.
Hamas has accepted a two state solution based on 1967 border.

Blair refuses to accept this or that there IS a notion of proportionality.

In Lebanon, Blair was a failure and won't admit that his actions ferment radicalisation, something he was told would happen if he invaded Iraq.

THE KAFKAESQUE UN MEETS SATAN

"He has just returned from the region and gave his reaction to the failure of the UN ceasefire."

What?? The Israelis are STILL going be shooting at the UN when they're not ethnic cleansing Palestinians?

No wonder the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (like the rest of the world hopefully) is a little narked. She probably really believed all the Human Rights guff not realising that it's really just a tool for busting states which aren't keen on free-market Liberal-Democracy.

Tony Blair looked exasperated when Gavin raised the subject of the letter that Muslim leaders (ones by the way who have been involved in hitherto in countering Islamist extremism) wrote to Gordown Brown on the danger of radicalisation being intensified here by Gaza. Blair immediately said nothing could justify extremism. But that's not what the leaders were saying - they were doing no more than stating what anyone can see is likely to happen - and anyway head of MI5 Jonathan Evans too has warned that Al-Qaeda sympathisers here may exploit the Gaza issue.

#6 Irish_Mark, I think you're pretty much bang on there. Interesting to see how many people have swallowed the Israeli line of: "Hamas broke the ceasefire".

A QUARTET IN A PINT PRAT.

The sum total of what Blair had to say - as ever - was: "Trust me I'm Tony". He had nothing to declare while declaring nothing; with his usual obfuscation. Gavin's low key skewering was masterful.

I notice Blair has developed a centre-forehead stigmatum in the form of a 'W'. Assuming this is not from meditating on Tommy Walls, and - out of kindness - rejecting the obvious W-word, might it be from his intense association with W Bush and his W-ar?
A sort of double W-hammy?

How appropriate that this wannabe messiah should be so marked. There IS a god, whatever the buses say.

How can anyone seriously talk about Gaza and The West Bank be unified? First they've got Israel in between them, and second, Israel keeps eating into The West Bank with settlements, and blockading (if not bombing/shelling) Gaza and describing the latter's legitimate attempts to arm and defend itself as 'terrorism' and arms 'smuggling'!

I just want to praise Gavin Esler in his interviewing of Tony Blair tonight. I thought he got it just right - not pressing him too hard, not interrupting, shouting, etc, but also not pandering to him, but quietly and determinedly asking him important questions. I have just one disappointed complaint:

All the questions 'speak with Hamas?' 'all sticks not carrots', was clearly leading to the fundamental question behind all of this: what is the point of Hamas giving up armed resistance when the last few years (Abbas, Quartet, Road Map, Envoy Blair) have shown that Israel - with its greedy expropriation of yet more of the 22% of Palestine left for a 'state', and the International community/Quartet proving that when it comes to it, they are a facade, with no interest at all in holding Israel to its commitments - even when those trangressions spell the death for the 'peace process' (sic) and the very 2 state solution they all apparently long for. If Abbas, and the 'negotiators' are systematically humiliated, and the Palestinian people shown such contempt by the rest of us, why on earth would Hamas want to get rid of their weapons?! I'm afraid Tony, the buck stops with us (the West). As long as we are prepared to look away while Israel kills the last possibility of an independent Palestinian state, then Hamas is right to think that it is about 1 state (just not the ethnocratic racist state currently there).

Don't ask Hamas to commit to a 2-state solution, when you, the Quartet continue to show a pathetic lack of commitment to it.

This Gavin, is where your questioning should have led you, I wonder why you shied away....

RACIST POT REMARKS ON KETTLE'S HUE.

What is that Blair like? He says that 'the life of a UK citizen is so fulfilled, that he has no excuse in reacting to provocation abroad with criminal acts!'

So what was that Iraq war all about Tony? I can only assume the rule only applies to British Muslims - never to Anglico-Catholic changeling, crusader Prime Ministers.

RIGHT ON JADED JEAN (#11)

I had been wondering the same thing. I was reminded of the 'Vance Owen Plan' of Bosnian enclaves with a crazy corridor. But then, I recently looked at the original (I think) partition map of Palestine, with its weird twin crossover points and got a touch of deja vu. It's surreal.

No point asking Tony Blair about carrots and sticks. He doesn't know what a carrot is. I am convinced he has been bought by the groups that
1. At 6:37pm on 09 Jan 2009, mercerdavids wrote about.
It seems to have become the spokesman for the U.S and Israel with a complete lack of morality and humanity repeatedly parroting untruths that Israeli spokesmen (like Ragev who seems to get far more coverage than he deserves btw) constantly spout. Does Mr Blair think the U.N and the aid workers are liars.
How about the 90 odd U.N Resolutions that Isreal has ignored, the illegal settlements, or the occupation of territory that was NOT mandated to them or the bombing of Lebanon or the wanton killing of UN personnel (including Hook a British national) in Lebanon and Gaza or killing of the British peace activist Hyndall or British TV camerman, James Miller
Israel broke the ceasefire agreement by choking Gaza (it was a condition of the Ceasefire ) and continuing to shell and continue missile attacks.How much blood do Israel and by association Mr Blair and the U,S government want?

https://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9736369.htm - Does Israel pay for these or are they free?

11. At 11:27pm on 09 Jan 2009, JadedJean
Just to illustrate your point about Palestinian territory take a look at this map

https://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Palestinian territory has shrunk to little disconnected islands in an Israeli sea - making a 2 state solution impossible.

Does Tony Blair not know any of this?

We are expected to accept all Israel's lies (just like the lies about WMD in Iraq)

Radicalisation is caused by percieved and real injustices. If you are expelled from your home, your children maimed and burned and your future destroyed and then told you have to accept it you would be angry and want to hurt your enemy and his friends who helped. The solution surely is to acknowledge these injustices and correct them. Isn't that what Tony Blair should be doing if he is representing our values otherwise he is implying that he represents a morally bankrupt nation that thinks like him.

My gawd that Blair faced liar is back in the media again, I thought I'd seen the last of that poodle. Has he had a face lift; he looks younger somehow!
Now that the Z'ds have been targeting Nato workers and a few handfuls [ or should I say truck loads] of innocent children, will the war crimes gang persue the scum involved; or will the 'human shield' of 'Anti-Semitism' protect the perpetrators?
I rarely agree with Red-Ken, but it really is like a mini Holocaust, from the perspective of the Gazan's who spend their days hiding under their kitchen tables waiting to be cleansed.

Has any one noticed that Mark Regev [sp] has upon his forehead a completely smooth section centrally between his eyebrows amidst the usual frown marks? It reminds me of the area opened for Lobsang Rampa's Third Eye. Is he a former Buddist? I'm not sure if that is a problem, because Buddists are good people aren't they!

It seems to me things in Gaza are going about as I expected they would. Timing could hardly have been better. Bush is leaving, Obama isn't in yet, Christmas is over, Hamas refused to renew the cease fire they violated anyway, and the rockets gave Israel the perfect excuse to take decisive action. This is the first real test for Hamas in foreign policy and they are failing miserably at it. They've picked a fight to the finish with someone much bigger and stronger than they are. They've vowed to fight Israel to the last drop of Palestinian blood. As things now stand, they may soon get their wish.

16. At 00:29am on 10 Jan 2009, M_Rock
Of course not see this link

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

An average of $3 billion of the good old U.S taxpayers money per year goes towards Israel's Killing machines - not counting other aid. The Congress and Senate are infiltrated by special interest groups like the AIPAC and some high office Congressmen and Senators hold joint Israel/U.S nationality. The Congress and Senate don't sit on Jewish holidays.

I agree with much of the sentiments expressed here. As a Jew I am appalled and ashamed at the brutal aggression and militarism of the Israeli government and the propaganda that has manufactured consent amongst the Israeli population in support of this unjust, disproprortionate and irrational war.

But it should also be remembered that Hamas is fundamentally against peace. To quote from their charter:

Peace initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Israel's greatest mistake was its failure to pursue a meaningful peace dialogue with the Fatah movement under Abbas. This is what gave rise to Hamas. But we cannot excuse racist, intolerant and repressive tendencies of a regime simply because they are democratically elected (so was Hitler) or because they are victims of Israeli military barbarism.

The only hope is regime change in both Israel and the Gaza strip. If only, if only Israel could produce a leader with the courage and strength of character exhibited by Mahmoud Abbas. The real tragedy is that this man, as a result of misguided Israeli policy, is now being derided by his own people and with that goes the thin hopes of a return to the peace process.

wayneji (#15 and #17) "I am convinced he has been bought by the groups that
1. At 6:37pm on 09 Jan 2009, mercerdavids wrote about."

Bought by or economically threatened by? The latter is what happened the last time sanctions like this were aired. Iraq, like Afghanstan are also USA forward bases in support of Israel against the CIS and SCO (which Iran hopes to join).

I suspect it's as much this considering the disproportionate role which the vested interested play in both the USA and UK economies (see the demographics of NYC and recent events). This really does need to be taken far more seriously, as I suspect they may legally have politicians over a barrel. Ironically, people are afraid to speak out in defence of social justice for fear of being accused of 'hate crimes' whilst some very cynical, but effective, tools of psychological warfare are at work in pursuit of hegemony. One should not be misled by the fact that there are heretics (genuine or not) as these just give the appearance of democratic dissent.

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justinrobin (#21) You leave out crucial premises. The Palestinians are quite right to believe that the UN and other mediators are unjust given all the UN Resolutions against Israel, the progressive shrinking of Palestinian territory, the obvious dissembling from Israel with the collusion of the USA/UK/EU. How can anyone blame them? What else can the Palestinians resort to other than Jihad? It's time for UN to turn to Chapter VII perhaps with China and Russia forming the core of a coalition - a) Israel needs to be disarmed (no references to 'smuggling' weapons from the USA by chartered ships one notes), and b) the land needs to be re-partitioned equitably if there is to be any hope of a two-state solution. It isn't going to happen though is it?

Incidentally, Hitler was democratically elected to reverse a similar set of socio-economic problems (including anarcho-capitalism/Trotskyism) which again threatens the West today. High profile fraud cases like Madoff and the collapse of Lehmans cleverly serve to increase fears that Jewish interests are disproportinately influential in the USA/UK economies - i.e. upset us and we *might* withdraw from (i.e cripple) your economies and take up of 'Right of Return'.

INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE?

Speaks for itself.

gaza high casualties

don't civilians normally run away from war zones. But in this case the borders are closed so where could they run to?


Tony

was tony wearing one of those nice suits he got when they closed shops to the public for him to get the best bargains?

tony thinks the only block to peace is hamas accepting israel. but is not the evidence the block is also the israeli political class will never define palestine borders because it will bring it into conflict with the settler terrorists?

given tony is a patron of a charity that has apartheid policies why does he think he is a credible mediator?

Media War

the more important campaign by foreign states is to make the uk the battleground for other people's wars. For a few million a year in 'fundraising' the uk political class seems to have been bought off?

bookhimdano (#23, #26) Good posts.

MarcusAureliusII (#19) As remarked earlier, surely they're martyring themselves, what else can they do?

Are Abass (who notably did his controversial, but enlightening PhD in Moscow under (Jewish) Yevgeny Primakov) and Mubarak playing a high human cost diplomatic game to secure hegemonic advantage for Iran?

Excellent edition tonight - appreciated.

Justicenlove @ [12]: with you (and especially on the interview which was indeed admirable) but suggest that in practice Hamas is looking to an interim 3-state solution and JJ @ [12] and others in the same spirit are quite right. I suspect a new found enthusiasm from the West to at least enter into secret discussion with Hamas is predicated on that realisation and that the the agenda is really to buttress a corrupt and ineffective Paklestinian authority against the threat from Hamas. Always dangerous to read too much into body-language but recall how the PA rep spluttered when Jeremy suggested that Hamas had taken the moral high ground amongst Palestinians a couple of nights ago.

Markonee 1 @ [18]: I remember within a few days of Tony Blair's first coming into office a portrait artist writing The Times (I think) to say he had a 'dead eye' (he does and moreover as many have remarked the two together are capable of swivelling independently in different directions) and that in this portrait artist's experience that could only bode trouble. But as for Lobsang Rampa he was a plumber from Cornwall or something and the whole thing a fraud. There's no 'third eye' in Buddhist iconography though there is something about a hole in the head in the siddhis of Naropa I never really got into, content as I am with the ones that come naturally.

AN ORTHOGONAL DIMENSION?

rinpoche1 (#28) "..recall how the PA rep spluttered when Jeremy suggested that Hamas had taken the moral high ground.."

You're right. But one has to remember that most of the spokespersons for Hamas and the PA are men, and that masculinised males tend to be rather weaker verbally (see Black males elsewhere, it shows up in all the test data). This does not mean that they don't have a good case, just that they're in dire need of better representation perhaps? It's the opposite for Israeli males. As I have said repeatedly, I think I think there's an understated, and important, group mean brain-gender difference in this conflict.

How dare the Brits whose government committed one of the worst mass murder atrocities in history, the firebombing of Dresden where hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed in one night accuse the Israelis who are also responding to their civilians being targets of random enemy rocket attacks? By any measure, Israel's government and military have been remarkably restrained given the circumstances. Bravo Israel. We in America support you in your struggle to destroy terror against you just as American Revolutionaries struggled to destroy the British tyrant despot King George III and his mercenary Hessian and Redcoat armies in our country over two centuries ago. I'm glad to pay my taxes because it helps Israel's cause to find justice in an anti-semitic and anti American world. The rest is just noise.

TU QUOQUE

MarcusAureliusII (#30) Was that tirade ironic? I hope so.

Something like 24 Israeli citizens (not all Jews) have died as a consequence of Hamas rockets/mortars over the past 8 years (3 during this conflict). How many Isrealis have died in road accidents over the past 8 years?

As to Dresden, yes, it was appalling, today it might even have been classed a war crime. The point to grasp is that Israel IS doing whatit is today, and today, there are war crimes as the UN has pointed out.

ISRAELI ROAD ACCIDENTS STATISTICS

Irony on:
I'm surprised Israel isn't trying to blame a proportion of their hit and run road accidents on Hamas, although given Gaza's airport was 'closed' by Israel, I guess any dastardly plan which Hamas terrorists might have had to rent a couple of hire cars and blend in with other reckless indigenous drivers of Israel is a bit of a non-starter?
irony off

Israelis do seem to manifest a rather extreme response to stress as I've remarked upon elsewhere - it may be something to do with CYP21 and the HPA.

Media War -

The first casualty of war is the truth !

I don't envy the BBC's job in trying not to be a mouth piece of any sides propaganda in this conflict.

TEST QUESTION 2 - SOCIOLOGY (#33)

You are wandering in the desert and you encounter Amalekites. do you (1) ignore them (2) go on your way rejoicing (3) strike down Amalek; put him under the ban with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, baby and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. Blot out the memory of Amalek.

(Time allowed - eternal)

MILITANTS

Do the Hamas militants whom the rest of the Gaza population are being warned to stay clear of wear special, luminous, 'I'm a Hamas militant' announcing uniforms? Otherwise, presumably the IDF can assert anything they like when they shoot and blow up people.

JadedJean

So Dresden was not a war crime because there was no international law making it one during WWII. Mass murder of civilians in war then was legal. And how many died in the rocket attacks on Britain compared to the number who died in Dresden. The correct answer is a tiny fraction. And how many war crimes did Britain commit all over the world for centuries in its military empire which subjugated, enslaved, stole from, and murdered its subjects if they did not submit to its capricious self serving whims? The answer is that numbers don't go up that high. Many other European powers share the same guilt. Europeans do not therefore have any right to criticize Israel. Their own sordid history is far far worse.

#34

Hi Barrie

I never did sociology at school , I did computer science instead.But I'll have a go.

Simple, I judge a person by his or her actions , not by his ancestors actions , I live in 21st century Britain, not N.Korea.

What's the first rule of History "Don't judge historical events by today moral standards".

What's my grade ?

Late submission to #37 post

So my point being , unless I knew the biblical history I am not in a position to make such a judgement on the historical question posed.
Therefore I can only use my moral judgement on recent events.
As morals are always evolving like us humans are.

YOU'VE GOT ME ALL WRONG (#37)

Hi Steve. Isn't the problem with religious tenets that they get set in stone in the past, then jealously guarded down through time? That's why I quoted 'The Book'. So far as I know, the Jews are unique in the strength of their believed special status and in their absolute claim to a chunk of the Earth. And Yahweh seems to condone some pretty ferocious actions.

I wasn't setting a test, I was using metaphor to bounce off a purported (and denied) mathematical question on your link, about killing Arabs. My hypothetical question suggested that that those who put great store by ancient writings in a book, might be influenced in the present day - such is the strength of dogma.

As I posted before; I reckon this will not be solved by human agency, thus the only just solution is a rise in sea level (act of God?) to make us turn to more pressing needs and priorities. Climate change might be the saving of mankind. Consider: if the Holy Land was all flooded at an early stage in the coming inundation, Jews and Arabs would have equal status on earth (real-estatus) and up in Heaven Solomon would nudge a prophet and say: "I told you so!"

As to grades: we all get a Z.

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INSECURITY COUNCIL (#40)

What with vetos and the tiny political mind, JJ, my money is still on the next 'Flood'.

I must check the Holy Land elevation and get down to Ladbrokes.

I like your idea, but only Tolkien could make it come out with good on top.

JadedJean, any attempt by China or Russia or anyone else to do as you say would bring about a worldwide nuclear war and an end to human life on earth. Israel likely has the world's third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons. If it feels its existance gravely threatened, it has many ways to cause universal suicide for all of us. And that's without American help. Fortunately neither China nor Russia have any direct interest in the conflict and have far different preoccupations to absorb their attention. Back to the drawing board. It bothers you to see them winning for once, doesn't it. Not me.

Barrie (#41) "What with vetos and the tiny political mind".

Yes, in the real world, you're quite right, especially given the first part - having said that, it would make for a better world.

MarcusAureliusII (#42) Not if the Security Council mandated it.

PSYCHOPATHIC OR JUST A BIT EXTREMIST?

MarcusAureliusII (#42) Take a lesson from the exchange with 13thMan about not trafficking in the intensional - it reduces one to dramatic, indeterminate and inscrutable fabrication which is no basis for anything. What the world's witnessing Israel doing in Gaza isn't fighting/winning, it's just cowardly bullying if not committing war crimes against civilians, large numbers of whom are women and children.

Israel has form here and here and here...and here

JadedJean, you just don't get it. By the Israelis launching nuclear weapons at any number of targets, nuclear reactors including their own), vast oil fields, or numerous other targets, they'd trigger an ecological catastrophe nobody would recover from. A single nuclear weapon fired at Moscow would trigger a full scale thermonuclear exchange between the US and Russia. The UN Security Council isn't going to mandate anything. It can't even broker a cease fire in Gaza or end the Arab genocide in Sudan. Anyway, if someone tried, you know who would veto it for sure. Ta da! Yes, America, land of the free and home of the Atlanta Braves.

MarcusAureliusII You need to read what is written more carefully before responding.

If the UNSC mandated a Chapter VII intervention extending to military intervention, there wouldn't have been a veto.

As to Israel, what delivery vehicles does Israel have? Do you really think all the guarded remarks (and more) about nuclear weapons from Israel have been anything more than bluff/deterernce? Israel is currently making its potential citizens (i.e. those which support her abroad) despised all over the world. That is probably exactly what Hamas, and its advisors are contriving.

JadedJean

"Israel is currently making its potential citizens (i.e. those which support her abroad) despised all over the world."

If you are referring to the United States of America, it was despised especially by Europe long before Israel was created, in fact ever since it dared to defy European colonial empire and the rule of European monarchy. Just think of the world today as the revenge the progeny of past generations of victims of Europe have wreaked on the progeny of those who oppressed them. What are you going to do about it? More useless ranting in the streets? More vitriolic speeches and postings on the internet? Europeans are never at a loss for words. When they can't go out and steal from other nations through their empires, that's all they have left. Why not think of the former European colonial empires as the ultimate illegal settlements. Then put Israel's in perspective. It's a minor misdemeanor compared to a class A felony. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

There's been some concern in the press about the use of White Phosphorous. The M825 WP (WP for white phosphorous on felt rags) whilst ballistically an Increased Conventional Munition (ICMs aka cluster munition) is airbursted allegedly just to lay down obscuring smoke. Some of the other munitions are HE, but who knows what's mixed with what? Presumably observers in Gaza would know if true ICMs were being used, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody has reported that.

MarcusAureliusII (#47) "If you are referring to the United States of America".

I wasn't, and that would have been clear to almost everyone reading this blog apart from yourself. Your other remarks are just silly. I suggest you look a little more closelyy at a) the USA's changing demographics (see the ETS report a year last February, and the figures here at #5, b) how these changes have been brought about and c) who ultimately hopes to benefit from these changes in hegemony.

I remind you that the specified population was originally (East) European.

JJ

I suggest that you look at the polls where support for Israel and its policies in the US remains overwhelming. While Europeans are blinded by their hatred for Jews and preoccupation with access to Arab oil, Americans are not supplicants, nor do they share Europe's prejudices. We'll see if Obama's policies live up to his rhetoric concerning Israel during the campaign but if it does, American support for Israel will not waver. American policy and attitudes do not depend on demographics, it remains based on core values and unwavering principles. This is something an unprincipled civilization that bases its judgments on ethnicity like most of Europe will find impossible to understand.

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JJ, do you actually know anything about America or do you just spout off your delusions and prejudice?

If being moronic is a necessary trait to fall into the trap that led to the financial ruin we all are confronted with now, I suggest you look to the Bank of England and all of Europe's financial institutions. They seem to be every bit as dumb by your criteria and I guarantee you they aren't all Jewish.

BTW, the most politically powerful proponents of the sub prime mortgages which allowed poor people to buy homes they couldn't possibly pay for were President Clinton, Senator Dodd, and Representative Franks, I think all good ole Christian boys. (not quite sure about Franks.)

MarcusAureliusII (#52) I go by the data and I suggest you and others should too. As to the recent financial crisis, I suggest you look into who lobbied for repeal of Glass-Steagall and what the rational was behind the CRA and its ammendments. As I've been through all this at length before, I'll leave you to do your homework in the NN archive or elsewhere.

In the UK, it's been painfully obvious for some time now who the fundraisers/paymasters/puppeteers of New Labour have been since it ditched Clause IV, stopped being Old Labour 'Stalinists', and embraced the Socialialist International (essentially Trotskyite/Anarcho-Capitalist).

You are rather too fond of constructing and peddling fantasies to be taken at all seriously given the critical mass of facts. It is no longer controversial whether what I say is what's been (legally) going on, the question now is just whether it's venal, unethical and basically, undemocratic.

I think it is.

Anyone remotely interested in the context of the previous post might like to look at the transcripts of the Treasury Committee's evidence sessions into The Banking Crisis, paying particular attention to some of the unusually less than urbane remarks made by committee members on the credibiliy which they give to 'the market' as an explanation of, if not justiciation for, the venal practices which have come to all but define the last few decades.

THE ISRAELI "LANGUAGE LAUNDROMAT"

An American's perspective.

Elsewhere (around Q597), Mr Mudie of the Treasury Committee discusses "Language Laundry" in the context of the Banking Crisis (just over half way down). Does everyone spot the Kafkaesque similarity to which he refers and that which has been coming out of Israel recently?

Finally, the Chinese press on Jordan's stance. Time for Chapter VII.

WAYNEJI (17)

The picture at your link:

https://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg

paints 'a thousand words'. Clearly it is accurate in broad terms, but can it be verified in detail? If so, it stands in its own right as proof of intent. A panel showing the boundaries as in 2009 would be conducive.

Can anyone offer unimpeachable provenance of this map?

barrie (56) I'm pretty sure some of the major media providers have provided such time-line maps over recent years. The UN maps are also worth a look.

As one of our Liberal-Democrat MEPs said on BBC News today, one of the problems Hamas has in recognising Israel is that the latter will not define its borders. This is particularly difficult of course when it's so busy turning its Arab neighbours into inhabitants of 'Israeli-Swiss Cheese' via settlements when it's not making psychological (and sometimes even physical) mincemeat out of them,

It's also all but impossible to talk rationally to a people which puts such great store by indeterminacies of intensional language whilst eschewing, is not attacking extensionality - yet some won't accept that this really happens, despite the evidence.

I believe that's chutzpah at work.

Len (Gavin Esler)

I hope that the interview with Tony Blair, if there is a URL for the video of it....

~Dennis Junior~

Hence 'Kafkaesque' Barrie. Reason has nothing to do with any of this, although many are all too easily led to believe otherwise. They are sending a clear message through their behaviour that the only thing that they understand is brute force. The classic predator.

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JJ
I was immediately aware of the implications of the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act when it happened and have arranged my own personal finances to take maximum advantage of it. How anyone could say they didn't see a depression coming is beyond me. What I didn't know about was the CDSs. This multiplied the effect a dozen fold. This has been one of America's finest exports. How telling that European bankers and financial whizzes were as clueless as their American counterparts. But it hardly matters. The Canadians sensed something was very wrong and avoided the trap. But in the end, they will get swept up into the consequential whirlwind along with everyone else. A few hundred thousand waiting on the sidelines now has the potential to become millions in just a few years after the stock markets crash and then recover. Are you prepared or are you one of those with 20-20 hindsight but no foresight like most people?

UTTERLY DEPRESSING (#57)

Thanks JJ. The UN 2007 map SHOWING CHECKPOINTS reminds one that in The 'Holy Land', there is only Israel and CONQUERED Palestine; the latter variously occupied, blockaded, and a mixture of both. I suppose this puts the occupants in a similar position to Germans and Japanese after WWII but with no attempt to re-habilitate.

The inexorable shrinkage of the Palestinian bits, plus a swathe of peremptorily dismissed UN Resolutions, seems to me far more 'disproportionate' when enacted by a tiny minority of world population, than the Gaza bombing.

As Wayneji says above: Does Tony know?
I think he might. He looks like a man consumed by guilt, having lucratively sold his soul.

From BBC's website

"'Impressive gains'

As Israel's cabinet met in Jerusalem to consider its next move, Prime Minister Olmert said: "This is a time to translate our achievements into the goals we have set."

He praised the military's "impressive gains " in Gaza, adding: "Israel is nearing the goals which it set itself, but more patience, determination and effort is still demanded."

Referring to last week's UN Security Council call for an immediate ceasefire, Mr Olmert said "nobody should be allowed to decide for us if we are allowed to strike". Both Hamas and Israel have rejected the UN resolution. "

Congratulations to all Israelis. Rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza have been reduced to only 20 on Sunday according to BBC. Let's see if we can get that down to zero.

IMPRESSIVE GAINS (#63)

That couplet captures the spirit of the age perfectly. As we 'advance', worldwide destruction of every kind is the lasting legacy of man's activity.
Social maturity of the individual declines inexorably - inbuilt auto-damnation.

"Impressive gains." Weep world.

Will "The 16 charges of corruption, money-laundering and racketeering stem from a controversial $5bn 1999 arms deal." for Zuma in South Africa affect pressure on Zimbabwe and Mugabe? Perhaps we could be updated this coming week by an analyst as whilst intractable Middle East problems dominate our thoughts you would think progress could be made on Zimbabwe.

MarcusAureliusII (#61) "Are you prepared or are you one of those with 20-20 hindsight but no foresight like most people?"

Whilst I and others saw this coming and tried to warn about the drivers long ago (cf. the hyperbolic discounting function, changes in USA and European population mean cognitive ability and 'tilt') as one or two occassional contributors here and elsewhere would be able to confirm, that's sadly immaterial given that the insidiously entropic drivers have not only been increasing in force for years, but are inextricably intrinsic to 'liberal-democracy' where rational explication of what is slowly but surely destructive is censured/censored by political correctness as handmaiden to free-market anarchism (see link to Treasury Committee for some ineffectual lamenting).

Barrie (#62) "He looks like a man consumed by guilt, having lucratively sold his soul."

The 'Cash for Honours' debacle provided an ever so brief glimpse into all of that, as did this, although I made it closer to 10% of the Lords (where many other appointees carry little legislative weight). This was pretty good for a group which comprises just half a percent of the UK population. I've commented before that the British Chinese also comprises half a percent of the population, come top in our schools, and yet are invisible in the Lords.

Something is at odds with chance here, as well as 'equalities' (a subterfuge). Science should look into instances where odds are violated should it not?

Might Blair have been over an economic barrel as well as lured by celbritism?

JJ

"...but are inextricably intrinsic to 'liberal-democracy'..."

So you favor a despotic form of government where the self appointed ruling elite decide everything for the masses, the uneducated untermenchen. Spoken like a true European, the kind I've come to find under the thin skin, the veneer of all of them. That is why the tyrannical EU is so popular, especially on the continent.

MarcusAureliusII (#67) Throughout your posts, you do not appear to make a distinction between analysis of what is the case from what one would like to be the case, ie fact from value. What I said in my post above (and elsewhere) is descriptive havinglooked at Total Fertility Rates as well as changes in mean cognirtive ability and sub-scale tilt in the spatial-verbal dimension. I'm not sure that Democratic-Centralist regimes (e.g th PRC) ARE in fact despotic (any more than Presidential ones are). Old Labour was effectively from this mold, and clearly reformist. It is largely Liberal-Democratic propaganda which depicts these regimes as 'despotic' (cf. Hayek), which is exactly what one might expect of those who wish to spread free-market anarcho-capitalist de-regulation as anachism makes it easier to profit. The question one has to ask in the end is whether the latter is, according to the available demographic trend data, a) biologically fit and b) whether it has a long term future. On the basis of the available data, I think the answer is that it is not. This accounts, I think, for the resistance shown by those countries which on the reeiving end of its expansion.

I am quite happy to be shown data which refutes what I have drawn attention to in qute a long series of posts both here and elsewhere over the years, but I suspect you won't find any. This does not mean that I think that the alternatives are perfect. They are, however, demonstrably more biologically fit, and therefore more viable in the long-term, despite what some might assert.

I think you (and others) should look at the data to which I refer and let those condition what you believe rather than trust wishful thinking and emotions, unless you are in favour of Western dysgenesis and all that will come with it.

PEOPLE IN GLASSHOUSES . . .

Despot: A ruler with absolute power.
A person who wields power oppressively; a tyrant.

(Oddly: 'George Despot', said to have been instrumental in establishing the Republican party - can this be true?)

It would seem that Dubya qualifies as a tyrant, Marcus. And considering he has screwed a fair bit of the world in just 4 years, it would appear JJ has a point.

JJ, Oh what jibberish. Your posting looks like someone cut up a dictionary, threw the shreds into the air and posted whatever order they came down in.

We know that laissez-fair capitalism leads to speculative bubbles, stock market crashes, and depressions with severe deflation and massive unemployment. We find the business cycle allowed to run this way even though it is most efficient to be unacceptable because of the impact it has to the social fabric of society. That was the lesson of the 1920s and 1930s. But as Santyana said, those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them. Capitalism ran relatively well in the US for about 40 or 50 years with relatively minor undulations when regulations put in place during the 30s prevented this from happening again. Yes they impeded the maximization of profits, that is what it was intended to do because of the inevitable consequences of the process without them. Greenspan: "There is something about markets I don't understand." This was his testimony before Congress a few weeks ago. What that is, is in the search for profits, people in control of money will try anything and everything whether it is legal or illegal even if it is very risky. When something that is legal but risky appears to work for awhile, there well be a flood of immitators which leads to the bubble market that ultimately collapses the scheme. It doesn't just make it possible for it to collapse, it makes it inevitable. Only the details change from one time to the next.

The problem with getting rid of capitalism is that there is no known alternate system which works to produce wealth in any measure comparable to what the population as a whole wants. Wealth in other systems therefore becomes solely owned by an elite which seeks dictatorial power to preserve its privilege. This was a major failing of socialism and feudalism. Capitalism and democracy unlike other systems does not assume the best motives and intentions in people, it assumes the worst. When successful, it channels greed productively but thwarts it from assuming absolute power by structuring itself in a way that pits greedy powerful people against each other. Each individual or group acts as a check and balance against the others in the protection of its own self interests. This is the genius of the American political and economic system and why it has worked so well for so long. Only when the restraints were removed was it doomed. It will be rebuilt along the lines prior to the systematic removal of regulations and it will work very well again. It will take some pain and doing to get it back to where it was but it will happen. New opportunities will create much new wealth as the greed to make profits by exploiting them finds the energy that will take the risk.

MATURITY IN STATE OR INDIVIDUAL IS INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO TOTAL WANTS

Marcus (#70) " . . there is no known alternate system which works to produce wealth in any measure comparable to what the population as a whole wants."

Surely any immature society bent on meeting juvenile 'wants' is doomed to go on the fiddle to get more and bigger? I suggest an alternative system NOT based on meeting WANT but based on pursuing WORTH, is an alternative we should strive to 'know'.

Until the world realises that the underlying force in money-misuse, war, human exploitation and general nihilism (perhaps encapsulated in the term 'unkindness' addressed in a recent book) no alternate system will succeed for long. Sustainability depends on an adult mentality - which must be present in a critical mass of individuals. CHILDREN never play nicely for long, and it ends in tears.

"THE GENIUS OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SYSTEM"

This is anarcho-capitalism or Trotskyism in case you haven't worked that out yet, and it was exported to the USA in 1928 shortly before the crash and Great Depression. Today it's been peddled/made-over as Neo-Conservatism.

"The problem with getting rid of capitalism is that there is no known alternate system which works to produce wealth in any measure comparable to what the population as a whole wants."

I suggest you look into how much of that population controls how much wealth.

As I say, you construct fairy tales and talk yourself into believing them despite the abundance of refuting evidence for each of the propositions you assert. This is classic, and it's why this mess has come about.

If you don't understand what's writtten, spend a little time following it up (Obama's recent speech on the future is a good place to start, then the older Feb 2007 ETS material) rather than dashing off yet another asinine post to vainly defend your ego. The USA is going down the drain because of what it's allowed to happen in recent decades. The fact that you choose to live in a la-la land of your own contruction rather than look at the economic and demographic data produced by experts in the USA is testament to how deluded you are.

I know you're not going to like that, but you need to take this criticism seriously.

JJ, looked at the British Pound versus the US dollar lately? Who is going down the drain faster? Now keep an eye on Euroland. Their turn is coming sure as you're born. What does Leon Trotsky's view of Marxism or "scientific socialism" have to do with Laissez-Faire capitalism? What a bunch of bull.

barriesingleton...things are "worth" what people are willing to pay for them because of how much or little they "want" them. That is what a market is and all it is. As for misuse, that is in the eye of the beholder. Usually people who carry that torch want to tax every cent anyone and everyone earns and redistribute it because only THEY are smart enough to know the proper use for society's wealth. This is why socialism is always tyranny and why it always goes bankrupt. Read any good five year plans lately? How about some old reruns on Soviet agricultural output for 1932 to 1937. Surely somewhere they are in someone's archives. Putin wants to bring the USSR back to life but if he can't there are still paradigms like North Korea and Cuba. How nice to still have perfect examples of what true abject failure is about.

MarcusAureliusII (#73) "What does Leon Trotsky's view of Marxism or "scientific socialism" have to do with Laissez-Faire capitalism?"

Look into the history of Neo-Conservativism. The attack on the state (privatisation/grass roots democracy) on both sides of the Atlantic has been anarchistic. US-Jewish Marxists have invariably been Trotskyites (look into the policies of Thatcher and Reagan - their evil empire was Stalinist). Just look at the regimes which have been in the sights of the PNAC.

You are clearly more influenced by words than political action. It's actions which define movements, not names - Trotskyites are renowned for their entryism and makeovers. Anarcho-Capitalism of either the Chicago or Austrian school is essentially Trotskyite, i.e anti-statist. De-regulators are anarchists.

MarcusAureliusII (#73) This article and this one should get you started, but Irwin Stelzer's anthology on Neo-Conservativism is worth a look for the nature/quality of the refutations in the context of what I've briefly said. He's interesting here too.

Take it on board:- From the way you write it's clear that you don't understand entryist politics. The surest way to destroy capitalism was to de-regulate the markets.

JJ, Reagan and Thatcher were Trotskyites? Sorry, your signal is breaking up. I'm not equipped with radio equipment powerful enough to reach your planet. Orbit is too far away. Roger Wilko Over and Out.

MarcusAureliusII (#76) "JJ, Reagan and Thatcher were Trotskyites? Sorry, your signal is breaking up. I'm not equipped with radio equipment powerful enough to reach your planet."

Yes. It doesn't matter what people think or call themselves, what matters is their polcies, ie. what they DO.

You appear to think that the USA and UK are dictatorships led by despots. Thatcher/Major, Blair and Brown, Reagan, Bush and Obama are heads of parties. They are essentially front men/women. What one has to look at is who pulls their strings, i.e who they serve and who writes their speeches, drafts their policies, manages their staff etc. The essential policy of Reagan and Thatcher was de-regulation, i.e. the erosion of Big Government, i.e. erosion of the state. This is classic Trotsykite anarchism. Its nemesis is Democratic-Centralism (the PRC in the end-game), i.e Planned, or Command Economies. This is why USA foreign policy targetted the USSR, N Korea, Iraq, Iran, Syria and 'Islamo-Fascism' as these are statist, they resist/threaten anarcho-capitalism. In the meantime, you should have noted that the 'means of production' in the USA and UK (including the Civil Service) has been progressively broken up/sold off/privatised to create the last 3 decades of economic 'miracle'. It's now run out of family silver to flog off and its collapsing i on itslef.

You need to learn a lot about grown up geo and domestic politics and who benefits from 'the free-market'.

"You appear to think that the USA and UK are dictatorships led by despots."

No, just the UK and the rest of Europe, not the USA JJ. If it were, people like Obama would not have stood a chance of getting elected. A queen like Hillary Clinton would have been coronated.

MarcusAureliusII (#78) Look at the composition of hios campaign team and the projections for USA demographics up to 2050.

As to the economic mess which has hit the UK, that's because a) the USA exported much of it's 'securitized' toxic debt and b) the UK stupidly bought into the bubble-blowing Chicago/Austrian school economics which championed deregulation and venal but legal 'corruption' and spin.

A MATTER OF TIME

All the talk in the UN and international community counts for nothing unless it results in physical intervention in the region to disarm Israel as the latter will use the former as a green light to continue with its aggressive agenda. Not only did the UNSC failure to immediately go for a Chapter VII resolution/intervention make the UN appear ineffectual in the world's eyes, it will give Israel even more confidence to consider unilateral 'pre-emptive' military action against Iran. If that happens, all hell will let loose given the covert alliances.

I hope that analysis is wrong.

DIVIDED BY A SINGLE LANGUAGE (#66)

I yield Marcus. Despite you name, you are truly a man of your time.

JJ

"MarcusAureliusII (#78) Look at the composition of hios campaign team and the projections for USA demographics up to 2050."

Ahem, ahem,...excuse me but 2050 is 41 years away. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? As I said previously, your arguments look as though someone cut up a dictionary, threw the pieces in the air, and wrote down whatever happened to fall out of the sky. If you are implying that Obama won because of his ethnicity, that would just plain wrong. While race surely played a role on both sides, Obama would not have won without strong support from white Americans who for the time being still constitute the majority of Americans and majority of voters. (BTW, unlike many other countries, maybe most or all others, being American has nothing to do with ethnicity. America will still be the same even when the demographic distribution changes as it is expected to.)

"As to the economic mess which has hit the UK, that's because a) the USA exported much of it's 'securitized' toxic debt..."

And not just the UK but much of Europe. Also the ripple effect or rather tsunami will be felt all over the world, even in places that did not invest one cent in it. It's the best economic weapon the US could ever have devised and it was not even intended. A direct hit right on target. When the smoke and dust finally clears, don't be at all surprised if the USA is on top of the heap again. A lot of "experts" (who were wrong in the past so take it for what it's worth) are betting on that.

"All the talk in the UN and international community counts for nothing"

Agreed, a lot of useless and very expensive hot air. There is no such thing as "the international community" anyway. That's a myth created by the inheritors of Wendell Wilkie's One Worlders who also created the League of Nations from the Woodrow Wilson school of sellout and the disUnited Nations. Ban Ke Moon can go stuff a sock for all I care. I think most Americans agree. If it actually mattered, most I think would want out like I do.

"it will give Israel even more confidence to consider unilateral 'pre-emptive' military action against Iran. If that happens, all hell will let loose..."

What will cause Israel to take unilateral pre-emptive action against Iran will be the perception of Iran being on the verge of being able to build a nuclear weapon. If that happens, Israel will be forced to act or face destruction. And all hell will break loose considering that in all likelihood, Israel's action will be one or multiple nuclear strikes. If that happens, no one in the world will remain unaffected. In fact it could mean an end to all human life on earth. That is why Iran must be stopped before it is too late. Given that the "international community" merely talks about sanctions that will be ineffective anyway, it seems at the moment nobody cares. BTW, as a major nuclear power, Israel cannot be disarmed by outside force. Nor would the only nation even possibly capable of it, the US want to. The US supports Israel unequivocally and will likely remain at or close to that position. I think this is one reason why so many in Europe hate America. Seeing this hatred reassures me that the US is doing at least something right.

MarcusAureliusII (#82) "As I said previously, your arguments look as though someone cut up a dictionary, threw the pieces in the air, and wrote down whatever happened to fall out of the sky."

Translation: "I don't understand what you have written".

So be it. See Barrie's response.

#46 JJ

"MarcusAureliusII You need to read what is written more carefully before responding"

Who needs to read what is written? That goes beyong your usual pomposity; it is appalling arrogance.

Like many who talk nonsense you change direction to avoid admitting "I'm wrong, I'm talking nonsense". Sounds a bit like shape shifting to me.

13thMan (#84) You put too much store by intensions. I've said that before. You still have not grasped why. I suggest you find out. It may be worth your while.