Friday, 28 November, 2008

I realise that the arrest of an MP isn't the top headline at the moment, but at any other time it ought to be.

I am conscious that I, like most other people, don't have all the facts. But I thought there was a principle that MPs are privileged from arrest in all but the most serious of situations?

Party politics shouldn't come into this. An MP, especially an opposition MP, is there to find information and hold the Government to account. What is the Speaker doing about it? It is his function to uphold the rights of MPs.

Unless some exceptionally good reason comes out, somebody needs holding to account for this. The police and other law and order agencies, who generlaly do such a good job, need to remember that they are subject to the laws and general principles which govern this country just like everyone else. As you can probably tell, I feel very strongly about this.

Well, I hope that something is done to bring those who have harrassed and victimised Damien Green to account - as far as I can see, the man has simple done the job he is paid to do in a supposed democracy.

CCTV everywhere, millions of innocent people on DNA databases, the impending biometric identity card scheme, the database of all of our phone calls and internet useage... now they want to arrest MPs for making covered up Government figures which ARE in the public interest into the public domain. Worse, they use anti-terror officers to execute this! How utterly sinister it all is.

This has all gone too far. The former East Germany and the USSR had nothing on this lot.

For the sake of every man, woman and child in Britain, the media have to get to the bottom of what on earth is going on. This Government terrifies the hell out of me.

The problem with the police approach to the Damian Green affair is not that politicians should be above the law. The duty of the police is to investigate any breaches of law wherever their investigations take them, The problem is that of sensitivity to their actions. Even questioning anyone of substance, let alone arresting them, causes substantial damage to their reputation. If this is leaked to the media this may, in the case of politicians, cause unintended (or not) consequences. Such investigations should therefore be made in private, indeed in strict confidence, if political motives are not to be ascribed to the police involved.

Mind you, the Tories did not protest as loudly when such investigations followed Tony Blair for the best part of a year!

WHAT'S BEING ATTACKED?

Damian Green saga: I'm not sure what the fuss is. As I understand it, the head of the Civil Service instructed the police to investigate an Official Secrets Act offence, namely the unauthorised passing of official information to an unauthorised recipient. The police had to arrest Damian Green in order to be able to search his property for the material, i.e to recover it and limit its further disclosure. Civil Servants sign the OSA and there is clearly a line between leaking official information in the public interest and doing one's job responsibly, which includes not disclosing official information unless one is authorised to do so.

Prima facie this appears to yet another attack on UK statism (like so many of the recent not fit for purpose data leaks etc). It fits a pattern of undermining the Civil Service i.e state, as part of the balkanization of Britain in pursuit of the EU Lisbon Treaty (Regional Assemblies/Development NUTS/Agencies)agenda.

Why else do we keep hearing about all of these problems with the running of the state?

What surprises me is the total lack of any sign of abhorrence by any Government Minister about this latest attack on the sovereignty of Parliament.

They are very quick to deny any prior knowledge but do not seem to acknowledge the implications of what appears to have happened in terms of freedom of speech.

Methinks they do not protest enough!By their inactivity they give the impression that they do not really care about this at all.

Please do not let Government spokes person get off the hook tonight.

Their silence sends out a strong message to public servants who believe they have a public duty higher than to just serve the Government of the day.

No amount of whistleblowers charters will undo this affront to freedom of speech and it will only serve to increase the escalating democratic deficit at the heart of public administration in the UK today.

On Damian Green's arrest I wonder Jacqui Smith seemed to be surprisingly calm. If the police are seen to be trying to intimidate the politicians there will be hell to pay.

What happened to the ship supposed to have brought them? That will explain a lot if it came from Pakistan or the Horn of Africa.

I wonder if they did not train in the latter as to move numbers of terrorists through Pakisitan from the Tribal areas and then by ship would be very worrying.

On the web site have you though about showing how many logins a poster has. It would help show those people trying to multiple post to create the impression of a crowd of devoted advocates of the Crackpot Tendency.

Sky News, the pm and ministers knew nothing of the Green arrest. right, and I believe everything they say and write.

When did it all go Pete Tong ?

why is the bbc buying woolworths? How much of the supply chain for merchandise should a state backed organisation own?

Were did worldwide find 100million? Down the back of the sofa?

A follow-up to #4 given that Steve Moxon was interviewed by the BBC in the context of the 'whistleblower' legislation brought in by New Labour, this morning at about 8:50am, the ex president of ACPO referred to the OSA (which Moxton dismisses as an anachronism). But are people like Moxon just unwitting agents in a long term government British Balkanization strategy? I'm not sure we're all seeing the full picture with respect to all this apparent state inefficiency (or is it better described as reorganisation, destructuring, PFI/PPP by New Labour?). Is it not reasonable to see what's been happening in recent times as Britain being stealthily broken up into units of about 6 million (like London, NE, SE, NW etc, Scotland, Sweden, Norway, Finland) to become EU states with a superordinate federal government as in the USA?

Brown would moan about it, he'd have to, wouldn't he?

NEO-LIBERAL LOGIC

PFI does look more than a bit like Mussolini's corportivism.

Memo to the Bored.


Mag 2 Grid get Rid.

Got an E-Mail from the Terminator/Moderator
today first one ever informing me they have deleted a post of mine. The post I posted over 6 months ago, why now?

Well to enter into their spirit of things I would like to delete/modify another post of mine posted over 6 months ago.


Delete- The most dangerous thing known to man is an officer with a map.

Insert- The Most Dangerous Thing known 2 Man is a P.M./politician with a map he/she has no Idea how to read/understand, with a BLOODY Compass, Moral, Financial, or otherwise which he/she has not the faintest idea on how to use/read either.

Magnetic, Grid or TRUE North?

gordon (white witch of nahnia) browns nulabour have gone down south to the frozen waste, trouble is they are dragging us with them, what a bummer. THE TRUE COST IS ? my calculator has blown up

Does anyone know when I am due for my nulabour frontal la bottom a, ass mr green knows they are closing in fast. cant remember what happened to Winston Smith, I dont think it was very nice.

How could a senior MP possibly be arrested under anti-terrorism laws and his offices and house searched without anyone in the govt knowing. It is beyond comprehension, and I suspect that Gordon Brown is using some sneaky language to get around revealing the fact- it will no doubt come out at some point in the future.

Or even Corporatism ;-[

what are the police doing meddling in politics? They ballsed up the cash for questions affair so Mr Plod....butt out

JJ # 11

My term " Corporate Nazi " just about sums up what you are getting at in terms that the ordinary man in the street can easily comprehend.

Who cares about this arrest? He will be heavily compensated if the police arrested him unlawfully, or if the media defame or slander him.

What is more urgent is knowing whether UK grown citizens were involved in the terrible slaughter of innocent people in Mumbai. And, why the SAS were not brought in at the beginning to help the Indians deal with it? We know the SAS are the best in the world in these situations, and with their technology, they would have quickly found out how many murderous fanatics were in these hotels, and exactly where there were. Did Indisn bureaucracy keep the SAS out? And how come the Israeli SS got there and participated in the failed action at the Jewish centre?

The UK police story is does not deserve the media acerage it is getting. Well and good if an investigative reporter unlocks a Government plot to silence an opponent. But as it stands, many UK citizens face this kind of police attention every day, sometimes warranted and sometimes maybe not. We will now learn the name of the Conservative Home Affairs man, through this coverage, otherwise I never heard of him.

According to TAC (Treatment Action Campaign) the stocks of condoms in
South Africa may run out in the third
week of December due to a delay in
awarding a national condom tender.

This is quite serious in that during the
holiday period migrant workers return
home .......

The Damian Green story is also deeply disturbing. Tony Benn was on C4 News
tonight suggesting that the only similar
case he could recall was 70 years ago -
in 1938 when Duncan Sandys MP was
threatened with prosecution after he
tabled a Parliamentary Question but as then cleared by the Commons Privileges Committee - in a landmark judgement.

Heads may very well roll over this attack on Parliament by the police? We will also soon
discover, too, whether the flummery of the door being slammed in the face of Black
Rod at the Opening of Parliament really
is just empty symbolism or constitutional
reality. Jacqui Smith should be quaking in
her shoes - and get ready for The Tower?

Tonight's focus must however be on India.

NickThornsby (#14) The police tend not to tip suspects (or their friends) off that they are going to arrest them, especially if they want to get their hands on evidence. MPs don't have immunity from prosecution for criminal offences either.

The Metropolitan Police, as civil servants were doing as the head of the Home Officetheir ultimate boss instructed surely? Remember the Paxman interview with then Home Secretary Michael Howard over whether he threatened Derek Lewis the Head of The Prison Service (then in the Home Office)?

The police are not yet politicized (although after the Cash for Honours debacle and other high profile cases one wonders), and it's still Civil Servants who run the country, or at least ... it used to be before they started leaking all over the place

NickThornsby (#14) The police tend not to tip suspects (or their friends) off that they are going to arrest them, especially if they want to get their hands on evidence. MPs don't have immunity from prosecution for criminal offences either.

The Metropolitan Police, as civil servants were doing as the head of the Home Officetheir ultimate boss instructed surely? Remember the Paxman interview with then Home Secretary Michael Howard over whether he threatened Derek Lewis the Head of The Prison Service (then in the Home Office)? That was about Civil Servant's independence from political control.

The police are not yet politicized (although after the Cash for Honours debacle and other high profile cases one wonders), and it's still Civil Servants who run the country, or at least ... it used to be before they started leaking all over the place

brossen99 (#17) Yes, I was thinking of you when writing/submitting that one.

I used to have a lot of respect for the British Civil Service - before PFI. Its 'code' was real and integrity counted.

"Indian Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh" - an elementary mistake. States have chief ministers, not the union gorvernment. He's the CM of Maharashtra, of which Mumbai is the state capital.

PA make it clear here:
https://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5i-00XQf0kPHpL5U-oGEDexO0xHpA

JJ #22

I suspect that the main problem with civil servants and politicians is that they are angling for a future job in the " Private Sector " if made redundant or loose their marginal seat at the next election. Look what happened with Stephen Ladyman, probably the most incompetent transport minister we have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Now he works as a consultant with a company likely to financially benefit from the introduction of Corporate Nazi toll roads. The Corporate Nazis are desperate for a yes vote in the Manchester congestion charge referendum, and it would appear that they will do anything to achieve a result in their favor. Their latest 230k advert was removed from TV for being biased by Ofcom this week.

jaywalking (#23) But is he Indian?

SupremeChancellor [#1]
Please be very careful what YOU say. They may come for you next, although with a name like that, you might well be immune to any prosecution!
I must say, I can't help this feeling of doom! In a week of the Taser announcement, then arrests of a junior home office official and political party leafleter's. Today it's Damien Green's arrest, It seems the police state is tightening it's grip. This poses the question, why are the police instructed to use anti - terror laws to suit the purpose of state control. Under who's instructions has the law been twisted to dispose of civil liberty and replace it with intimidating tactics to silence anyone who dare oppose the government. Isn't this a misrepresentation of laws intended to combat ' terrorism' Doom isn't even explanatory, pernicious dictatorship is far more descriptive

shrinkingviole (#26) "This poses the question, why are the police instructed to use anti - terror laws to suit the purpose of state control. Under who's instructions has the law been twisted to dispose of civil liberty and replace it with intimidating tactics to silence anyone who dare oppose the government."

Good question. One answer might be that the 'war on terror' idea is a substitute for what used to be the Cold War. Today, governments don't have an easily identifiable bete noir, so have opted for a nebulous 'terrorism'. Stalin did this too, branding Trotskyites allies of 'social fascists' (social-democrats). Ironically, it's all designed to keep keep folk at home from getting too 'Bolshy'. It's a Neocon idea, but many neocons fled the USSR (as Trotskyites).

I am usually more interested in what happens and how it gets reported, but a few things shared here have resonated..

4. At 6:47pm on 28 Nov 2008, JadedJean :
I'm not sure what the fuss is.

Could make a nifty inscription.

7. At 6:58pm on 28 Nov 2008, thegangofone :
On the web site have you thought about showing how many logins a poster has. It would help show those people trying to multiple post to create the impression of a crowd of devoted advocates of the Crackpot Tendency.

Though I am aware of claims that there are 'teams' now in place to seed key blogs with (mis)information, I suspect 'they' may be wise to this. Also my estimate of posters on this blog, regular, infrequent and new, would suggest this is hardly worth the effort. Might be interesting mind, I concede.

Just getting nervous these days of more and ways of tracking information and people.

But anything that assists those who are 'right', and 'know' it, deal with those who are 'wrong' (or are crackpots) may have an attraction.

Me, I tend to rely on the power of arguments, or not, along with such as the use of pejoratives, to get a feel for who is making sense, and in a persuasive, civilised manner.

Now, let's see how much more Newsnight has dealt with what does seem a major national issue of some interest to many still.

The rights and wrongs may yet still have to come, but usually that happens through reporting and discussion.

The subsequent posts in this blog series would suggest a low interest editorially, for some reason, and I am sure President-elect Obama may be prevailed upon to join PM Gordon 'I think I may speak for the world even if a lot that happens here was done without my knowledge....' Brown with some further insights as to the whole X Factor situation.

Michael Crick seems oblivious to irony. A report based on (NuLabour or Police?) leaks used to justify a conclusion that by Friday evening it looked more likely than it had on thursday that Damian Green's arrest in a leak inquiry would embarrass the Tory party without any explanation of why that conclusion !!!! if you know something then say it. If all you had was the Labour daily spin line 'let's wait and see-there may be more to this..' (spun from Woolas on Today in the AM to the labour yes man from the select committee in your Newsnight report) then it really didn't justify your comment. If you had a leak from the inquiry surely you could see that that the hypocrisy of such a leak was the story (and -given the likely source of any leak- no danger to you from the boys in blue) unless you doubted the leak and thought it more likely spin? What a poor piece of journalism from a reporter that I previously respected.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

My Personal Views -

Political Witch Hunts

Misconduct in public office, was one of the charges brought against Daniel James the Iranian Spy, I do not think Mr Green receiving political embarrassing leaks from the Home Office is comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

This whole issue goes to the core of our democracy, if MP's are denied the information by the executive and it is now set to criminalize MP's for using leaks to fulfil their parliamentary duties, to hold the executive to account , then what type of democracy will we be left with ?

The Government (the executive) saying “It's nothing to do with them.” is sinister, as they are the complainant by proxy in this case.

Mr Straws smirk, before he got it under control, was telling (in the Mrs Smith “No knowledge” interview).

No wonder Labour did not want to fight David Davis in a by-election.

The quicker we have a general election the better !

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

HANDBAGS AND COMPUTERS

Tell A LOT about the owner. Might there be an element of opportunism here, with an ulterior motive?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

2 of your comments banned Barrie whats going on??
Be carefull big brother have your NO, NU Education and the Gulag await.

I now know what princess tony meant
Re education education education

Is it my turn next for the testical crocodile clips? oooh cant wait turn it up 2 eleven
oh heaven

JadedJean, No. 20.

I didn't suggest that they did, or should, tip him off. I merely said it is surely incredibly unlikely that this should happen without someone in the govt knowing.

IT'S ALL IN THE WRIST (#35)

I think Herr Flick's Gruppenfuhrer might have popped-in to the Blogstapo control room. All I said was . . .

29. At 09:08am on 29 Nov 2008, cherie4glitterball:

Is it just me, or, speaking of irony is there more than a certain amount in so many comments on a thread about freedom of speech/public having a right to know/censorship of information being referred/in a holding queue?

Ah, well. Hazel 'what 'we' need is a Blogstapo to ensure only stuff the public needs to hear' Blears would approve, I'm sure.

Kudos archivemeisters for unearthing the July 1985 Dear Leader 'that was then; this is different... it's now me in power' clip. Interesting that the knowing grin was already well established then.

My Personal Views, Rephrased -

Damian Green

It's concerning isn't it !

CONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY

"...Michael Howard said the arrest must have been sanctioned by the government.
//
"Are we to believe that nobody in the Home Office was told that the junior civil servant had been arrested..."

BBC NEWS Fri 28th November

Is there a Constitutional Lawyer on the blog? I'm not absolutely sure of my ground here (and some of it is tongue in cheek), but governance seems to be getting worse and worse. One might have expected an ex Home Secretary and lawyer to have twigged that as the police comprise a large part of the Home Office (an agency of the Executive Branch of the government), the Home Office most certainly did know, as they enforced the law i.e. had Green arresed!

MPs currently in office spend much of their time (along with MPs from other parties) making laws. Separation of powers means that the Executive's (and Judiciary's) job (including the police) is to enforce laws on the statute books which MPs have put there.

NickThornsby (#36)

My point was that too many people think that 'knowing' is what matters.

There's room for all sorts of confusion here, and no doubt some (opposition MPs) are just exploiting that? Clegg was the worst I thought.

Goodafternoon

Think the IT people might be sulking after a telling off last night. Someone forgot to post the what's on review blog until it had been and gone.

JunkkMale I see Amanda Patell in Daily Mail did a piece on "I know I speak on behalf of the world..."

The awareness movement has now reached the strangest places.

Do you think the Blogdogs save up all the "this has been referred to the moderators".

Sometime between Christmas and New Year we will get a Newsnight's Naughtiest Comments blog.

Then will we get to know what Barrie really said.

PUBLIC INTEREST

If every Tom Dick and Harriet in the Public Sector decided to provide the media with what they thought was 'in the public interest' we would very quickly have no viable Public Sector, we'd just have anarchism, we'd be left with the free-market..........

Damian Green

Who made the complaint to the police in the first place ?

Arrest of Damien Green

What is it about democracy and personal liberty that UK is so proud of? How many more stances NuLabour is going to pull before the nation finally throws them out?!

KingCelticLion (#42) They have a job to do. Sometimes they will get it wrong. I suspect most of the time they get it right.

It would be good if they moderated so that the NN blogs don't turn into something along the lines of Facebook or a chatline.

OSA (1989)

Interesting fact: "Clive Ponting, whose successful Public Interest defence (to a prosecution under the 1911 Act) led to that clause being removed in the 1989 revision".

Steve-London (#44) The Cabinet Office allegedly.

#46

Perhaps they have a sense of humour as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2008/11/monday_24_november_2008.html

This was more or less a 'sketch' on HIGNFY. the pound shop was substituted for £10 M&S.

The punchline was if you want to know how to work out vat- watch Newsnight.

Good to see Channel 4 News doesn't read these blogs. As of Wednesday they were still having studio discussions about a 2.5% reduction in High Street prices.

The Damien Green story as the above posts have shown is very complex. The reality is the media are still getting something as simple as a vat reduction wrong. Is there any hope?

Celtic Lion

KingCelticLion (#49) It's the lack of empathy which makes these types incorrigible. ICD-10 doesn't recognise it as distinctly as DSM-IV does, so it isn't as high profile this side of the pond. It has its roots in the first couple of years, the period called separation-individuation.

Humour has nothing to do with it. We have something along the lines of a Liberal-Democratic pandemic which is going to end in tears.

THE LINK TO END ALL LINKS (#51)

Thanks for the link in your post JJ it is so broadly applicable to blog-posters that I reckon blog-posting ITSELF should be listed as an INCONTROVERTIBLE PREDICTOR of Narcissism.

I shall wear my label with pride and hope we can all benefit from a sense of belonging!

As for poor J Gordon Brown - WHAT A PERFECT FIT!

Barrie (#52) Indeed, we are all narcissisitic (to a degree), but a degree of it is healthy. A degree of self-confidence is just healthy self-esteem. Without it we'd be lost in anxiety or depression. NPD is pathological narcissism - it's extreme and it's very obviously way beyond normal. Such people wreck lives, and don't care. Whilst we all like to be appreciated, that isn't narcissism. Narcissists are close to psychopaths in their constellation of behaviours, and fortunately they are as rare in the normal population. The PDs make up a lot of the clinical population just as anti-social PD does the criminal population.

For what it's worth, prima facie, most bloggers here seem pretty normal to me.

I don't know about Gordon Brown, but politicians and senior Civil Servants in general tend to be rather urbane. It didn't surprise me that Reagan and Schwarzenegger made the transition from actor to Governor easily, and whilst I take your point about similarities between Blair and Obama, I think one also has to look very closely at their advisors/puppeteers these days.

#46

Ouch Jaded!

It would be good if they moderated so that the NN blogs don't turn into something along the lines of Facebook or a chatline.

#52 and 53

Perhaps narcissism is on the rise in the young.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/nov/29/family-under-the-microscope-oliver-james

And I do see it on this blog, along with arrogance and OCD

HUH! I'M A BETTER NARCISSIST THAN ANY WOMAN. (#54)

I am a great fan of Oliver James and got direct help from him for a desperate friend.
JJ's Link at #51 is a ten course meal. Fascinating.

KingCelticLion (#50) "The Damien Green story as the above posts have shown is very complex. The reality is the media are still getting something as simple as a vat reduction wrong. Is there any hope?"

Glad to see you have cottoned on (serious face). We can't educate (enough) people to wise up to the fact that we have been breeding a downturn for ages. Hence some of my remarks.

ETS tried to do the same and found that people were not listening. We have at least one poster here who asserts that I am an evil dooer (I was recently enouraged to invade Poland, in a car no less, I didn't even get a tank!. I'm not quite sure why either, I thought they were invading us!). In fact I am just, as you said, one of the 'insecure' people. It's the differential fertility, low TFR and rising crime and dysgenesis that does it!

ecolizzy (#54) "Perhaps narcissism is on the rise in the young."

As to the 'ouch'...It has to be said, but it is (I sincerely believe) meant well. There's a theory that NPD is on the rise (especially in the USA), but I don't know of any good data which corroborates this, probably because NPD only got into DSM-III in the early 80s and it only covers the OVERT type not the shy (COVERT) type! Totally without empirical corroboration I am inclined to agree with you though. NPD has two critical periods - one is around the 'terrible twos' (it starts earlier) and the other is adolescence. We are failing both critical periods through our 'liberal' equalities' legislation. I think tere is lots of evidence to substantiate what you believe, and I fear it is political. Allegedly. Richard Herrnstein thoubt it a 'Liberal' conspiracy (and he was Jewish, a very good behaviour scientist, but I believe a dark Korean horse (Chung) was behind much that he did).

I sense that may be because females are more narcissistic than males genetically. Put a little girl behind a barrier and she howls for salvation, do the same with a litlle boy and he'll attack the barrier (whilst howling).. yet we've been pushing sex equality and female education and workplace equality far too far and way beyond the empirical evidence (see archived posts). When people deny reality to keep their jobs, they should not have those jobs in my view.

But this is not the current way of the world,

Fermale narcissism is reinforced in Liberal-Democracies for commercial gain - generally, at most females' long term expense, alas.

It's often just about selling products and services to (not always pathological/clinical) narcissists. The price is a low TFR, and even more insidiously, differntial fertilty. Who does this benefit? To answer that, which groups strictly censure such behaviour? Then ask which groups are at war? Then ask, which groups have above replacement level TFRs?

We've made a mess of a lot in recent times through being' caring', and I fear we will continue to do so unless more people wake up to how it is destroying them. CL recently retorted that I am a one trick pony (I'd been rather critical of his egocentricism, it can be appealing to some). The reality is that it's the job of science to identify what may be the most important independent variables in multiple regression of discriminant analysis equations. These are used by government departments to manage school (and other) performance (see much earlier posts for coverage of the models), and my concern is that if the USA's ETS see their Newsroom, just as our NAA/QCA is ignored, as have others who have been warning about the likelihood of a 'credit crunch' since the mid 90s, what can one do?

Tere are posters here who refer to this as pseudo-science. It isn't. It is excellent science. I can assure you of that. When one of the men who helped identify the structure of DNA is hounded out of his job for stating what is the consensus view in the area which researches the subject, be concerned, be very concerned.

In my view, it's those who post untruths who should be moderated, publicly castigated - not those who accurately represent what the peer reviewed scientific community says.

#56 JadedJean

Thanks for making me smile!

You and barrie (wid a big bad teasher) and kingcelticlion and brossen99 and probably stevelondon - you have made me feel for ages that you are one person with serious psychological problems!

Yes you are! You are. You know you are...

HERITABILITY

Barrie (#55) OJ is a celebrity. His media title changes with the newsworthy issue.

Quine once said words to the affect that a great divide seperated those who wanted to be right from those who wanted to appear right.

I quote:

'I have had neither the aptitude nor the temperament for debate, public or private, when confronted with motives recognizably other than the pursuit of truth. If in discussing with a student I sensed that he was animated rather by some ideological preconception, or by a wish to have been right for the sake of high marks or self-esteem, I make short work of the dialogue. A vast gulf, insufficiently remarked, separates those who are primarily concerned to have been right from those who are primarily concerned to be right. The latter, I like to think, will inherit the earth.'

W.V.O Quine
The Time of My Life (1985).

He, along with Skinner, was one of my heroes. Herrnstein didn't do to badly either (Rachin's got a bit close to the line).

thegangofone (#58) Thank you for sharing that with us.

You clearly know something which many of us don't.

Much appreciated.

46. At 1:50pm on 29 Nov 2008, JadedJean

It would be good if they moderated so that the NN blogs don't turn into something along the lines of Facebook or a chatline.

Hmn, yes. But is there not the danger of a sort of 'all can comment, but some are more commentworthy than others' kind of thing?

So then, 'good' for whom? And while I have found the progress of the subsequent debate interesting, and the links valuable, it might be possible that under a more pedantic regime such posts (inc. this one) would be deemed O/T to the original 'news' content of the piece and get 'moderated'.

The 'rules' would also be interesting to see in advance. But I am sure Hazel Blears would be interested in helping out.

I tend to err more on the notion that if one can't see for oneself, one doesn't really know, and hence anything could be true. Well, most of the time.

And how many times of late have we encountered the notion that things can go wrong (true), quickly followed by the claim that it's best and fairer not to ask questions of those who may be in error (not so keen if preventing repeats is thought helpful)?

I like to think of the cocked eyebrow in a blog more as an ongoing process of helping make things 'better'. But then, who am I to say what 'better' might be?

all my comments relate to other comments but i prefer not to identify each as i am not intending to enter into dialogue or conflict merely to express my own views on the world as a reflection of other views out there. i hope that is not deemed inappropriate, offensive or unhelpful. i see a blog as being available to all people to express themselves within a legal framework. i don't think i have broken the law even if a touch of sarcasm may have crept in, for which my apologies for stooping so low

what happened to winston smith? he was brainwashed and then spent the rest of his days drinking in the chestnut tree cafe - ring any bells with boozed up britain?

does it really help to keep talking about nazis? surely what is going on in europe is far more subtle and sophisticated and will not entail gas chambers. i say let the nazis rest, or rather remain restless, in their graves, and find new ways to describe new situations

nebulous terrorism? what was nebulous about the london or mumbai bombings? - if you had lost a leg or worse would you call that nebulous? the terrorists themselves give us a blow by blow account of what and why they are doing it, nothing could be clearer

in a persuasive, civilised manner - in a multicultural/multilogic paradigm this phrase ceases to mean what you hope

that a trait is more or less prevalent in a sex is not the point, the point is that traits are continuums or distributions and to divide into two absolute domains of traits penalises people at the extremes of the distributions. liberal equalities are therefore a prerequisite of any notion of freedom, especially freedom from biological determinism based on averages

capitalism taps in to an innate drive to go out and gather juicy roots, usually, as a sociable activity. TFR has nothing to do with shopping and everything to do with social policies in a patriarchal, social darwinist culture

one of the men who helped identify the structure of DNA - hah, hah, hah, Rosalyn Franklin had the real IP!

peer reviewed scientific community = political group think and constructed reality, not truth

i'm very glad to see debate about the operation of blogs. the non-transparent, or at least non-standardised, moderation process has long concerned me

to be valuable, blog moderation has to have strict rules about which words and phrases are disallowed and then we can all see what the current conceptual guidelines are based on

AND YET NOT LOOK TOO GOOD NOR TALK TOO WISE

First - a big THANK YOU NEWSNIGHT for letting these treads run, and go where they will. I see this as a small step for mankind.
If you ever return to cutting edge (not 'edgy') broadcasting, you could start here.

Following from that - (#58) If we 4/5 posters (that you list) are ONE we should be writing a book on multiple personality!

Finally (for now - I still have no life) denying reality to keep one's job (# 57) is 'living within the lie' as Havel nailed it. The lie is now so multi-faceted and all-embracing, it IS our culture. We need a 'way back'.

JJ - you have gone so far as to indicate the need for 'controlled procreation' - do you dare spell that out? Who would be in charge of policy, me or you?

SPECIAL RELATIVITY

"I like to think of the cocked eyebrow in a blog more as an ongoing process of helping make things 'better'. But then, who am I to say what 'better' might be?"

Junkkmale 10/10 MERIT STAR


'I have had neither the aptitude nor the temperament for debate, public or private, when confronted with motives recognizably other than the pursuit of truth. If in discussing with a student I sensed that he was animated rather by some ideological preconception, or by a wish to have been right for the sake of high marks or self-esteem, I make short work of the dialogue. A vast gulf, insufficiently remarked, separates those who are primarily concerned to have been right from those who are primarily concerned to be right. The latter, I like to think, will inherit the earth.'

W.V.O Quine SEE ME!

#58

How dare you sit as judge and jury over me, I don't have to prove anything to you.

As I see it, this is just one of the problems with the twin enemies of Liberty and Freedom of Expression, communism and fascist ideology (the same thing, just with a different hat on), you are bullied and smeared into accepting their ideologies.

I will carry on exercising my rights as written in Magna Carta, I am a freeman with the rights to Liberty and Freedom of Expression, even if you don't like it.




BTW SteveLondon has a dash between it Steve-London

#58

So what if they had psychological problems? Don't you know people with mental illness generally have more active neural activity and a higher IQ? And plus, imitating Andrew Neil doesn't make you sound funny or clever!

NEBULOUS

doctormisswest (#62) Adam Curtis series, The Power of Nightmares did a rather good job of presenting the politics of 'nebulous terrorism'.

This wasn't too bad either.

Much of your post (e.g. "a multicultural/multilogic paradigm") was a little too 'post-modern' for me to follow.

Policies are made on the basis of statistics and much of our language and thinking is (it may surprise some to learn) inherently probabilistic/actuarial. 'Apples are crunchy', 'men are taller than women', 'dogs and cats fight'.

Give it some some thought, ditch the neo-liberal relativism. You know it doesn't make sense.

On the Damian Green affair is Gordon Brown now open to prosecution over leaked treasury papers in the 90's?

#65 SteveLondon

Nobody is bullying you. Its cyberspace.

I caught your comment the other day about thinking about joining the BNP. Your choice, your values.

Is that consistent with democracy and the Magna Carta? I think not.

But enough of the goose steppers and their false pseudo-science that nobody accepts in the main stream.

It all makes me feel ... a little .. well.... like smiling!

Its a smiley day isn't it.

By the way if the goose stepper(s) do/does decide to invade Poland I would wrap up and take a thermos as its very cold.

You will probably need to explain to them (in Polish) that they have been invaded and you are now in control.

Enjoy!

#65

When did I ever say I was thinking of joining the BNP ?

That's a Slur !

#69

When did I ever say I was thinking of joining the BNP ?

That's a Slur !

IN LAY TERMS (#62) (I didn't understand it all)

I am under the impression that a spread of expression of human DNA is inevitable, but that our animal self is NATURALLY most tolerant of the 'centre band' of that expression. I would regard this as conducive to viable pairings, hence sustainable.

Modern man seems to be set on a course to espouse all that goes against the above.
This is surely counter-intuitive - even perverse?

We have seen various examples of violent reaction to 'otherness' ONCE CONSTRAINTS ARE ABSENT even in the most 'sophisticated' locations.

I have long concluded that one's culture should maintain Nature's diktats, so far as is humanely possible, while ameliorating the hurts of being off-centre. Sooner or later, Nature re-asserts her rules anyway, and the farther off-centre we are, the greater the shock must be.

TELLING MORE THAN WE CAN KNOW

"the terrorists themselves give us a blow by blow account of what and why they are doing it, nothing could be clearer".

Reasons aren't causes, and just because someone gives an account of why they did something it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true, or that what they say is all there is to it.

Here's one of our ex-cabinet ministers on the issue. I cite this not to endorse the position expressed, but simply to make the point that politics itself is nebulous and that people and groups can and frequently are duped/used. Perpetrators' own accounts are not all that matters.

I had always understood the constitutional position to be that the individual policeman acts on his own as an agent of law - and his actions must stand up in court.

That is what I wrote down in lecture notes on 25th October 1973 when Professor James Cornford (Gordon Brown's PhD
supervisor) gave his 3pm lecture that
day on 'problems of public order esp police') ..... but I might have picked
the jist up wrong, guv?! tho I think
not ....

I also understood that elected MPs cannot be obstructed in the execution of their duties .... that is why the door is slammed ceremoniously in the face of Black Rod at the Opening of Parliament when he comes to deliver the Royal Summons to The Other Place [NB Lord Levy was a member of The Lords not The Commons when he faced arrest during an earlier enquiry ............]

In the case of a Scottish MP running to a Division Lobby some years back and who knocked down a passer-by after a Scotch
Whisky Association reception, then nudged a policeman while trying to get up to go and vote, my view has always been that it was the policeman who was constitutionally in the wrong to arrest the MP at that point -
though perhaps he too was "confused".
and assault charges were thrown out
as I recall when the MP was fined ......

neilrobertson (#75) You might find this helpful (although it's 8 years old) in conjunction with the Wiipedia link earlier on Parliamentary Privilege. It makes the point that when Ponting was prosecuted in the 80s (under the 1911 OSA) for passing classified documents relating to the sinking of the cruiser Belgrano, the receipient, Tam Dalyell MP, was not prosecuted. Whilst the OSA is not relevant to the current case, some of the other issues are.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Jacquie Smith did a very professional job handling Andrew Marr's aggressive questioning, I thought.

ON GOOSE STEPPERS AND XMAS

An important kultural question!

Do the families of the far right gather around the TV to boo Indiana Jones?

Do they understand "The Producers" - a film by another Jew Mel Brooks?

He likes laughing at the far right.

Me too.


Thanks for making me smile! It makes me feel ... a little ... well ... like your pseudo-science is a tad flawed - as the scientific world acknowledges.

When do you take over?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#74 Jaded_jean

So thats a yes you are invading Poland?

Anent post #76 from JadedJean: Thanks for that. Of course Ponting was acquitted. At the time I remember a lot of people in the civil service argued that their primary duty
was to Parliament not to any particular Government of the day - and supplying
an MP (in that case Tam Dalyell) with
the information on the Belgrano was
in the public interest. The jury agreed.

These days too there is a Public Interest Declaration Act (brought in by Labour). I don't know whether it is pertinent in the
case under consideration and it is often
pretty ineffective in practice (as I learned
to my cost when I blew the whistle on a
'non-existent' UK DfID project run by The
British Council in Gaza ..... no enquiry was ever carried out which I thought a scandal).

The Public Interest Declaration Act also failed to protect Howard Horsley from
being hounded as a whistleblower. In
his case - also involving UK DfID and a
loss of £18 million in Ghana - there was
eventually a Westminster Hall debate
initiated by his MP Austin Mitchell and
I attach a link to that bit of Hansard:

https://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo050720/halltext/50720h04.htm

In that case the Royal Prerogative came in to play to defend the actions of the civil servants ............ ironic in that Charles 1
was also condemned in Westminster Hall
as was our own hero William Wallace!!!!

Jackie Smith's refusal to apologise was a disgrace however on today's Andrew Marr show, Jaded Jean ..... I hope she swings!
She did concede she knew quite a lot too.

SO ARE THEY ALL - HONORABLE MEN (#82)

Interesting to see Lord Goldsmith's name pop up.

Jacqui Smith has a truculent manner that bothers me. I like high officers to be above truculence, pomposity and hubris. I still suspect there is another layer of this, yet to emerge.

neilrobertson (#82) Remember the Paxman-Howard exchange over Lewis! This time Smith is being criticised for not interfering.

As I've said before, I suspect what we're witnessing is just part of a longer term battle between neo-liberal free-market politicians and our 'Stalinist' Civil Service (which tries to keep the nation together). The free-marketeers want to weaken the latter (the EU project). All the 'open, and transparent government', Human Rights etc we have seen under New Labour isn't all it seems I reckon. It's systematic de-regulation - 'freedom' - which is good for business. But is anti-statism good for the country?

It's a bit odd whe the people running the country are, ideologically, internationalists, people which Stalin and the Comintern originally classed as 'Social Fascists'. It wasn't just Hitler who regarded them as pernicious enemies of the people.

I thought the Welfare State was a rather good idea. The Civil Service/Public Sector has been under attack by initiatives like PFI/PPP for years. Too many people are seduced by nice sounding words such as 'freedom'.

JJ 78 fair Comment. However nulabour spinners would have put her through her paces for the last 2 weeks. That in my humble opinion is why it looked so well rehearsed. she should be on the stage, the first stage out.

All the sensationalisation about the terrorist thing is all about diverting public attention away from what's happening with the real threat to our freedom, the Corporate Nazi agenda.

Once again Brown is talking about pushing ahead with " reform " whilst at the same time the Unions and anti-poverty groups are questioning the introduction of " welfare reform " in the current economic climate.

With reference to #62, with cold snaps like we have at present their is no need for gas chambers, just keep the disabled and unemployed on such a low income that a significant proportion can freeze to death in winter. " Work For Your Dole " is a virtual forced labour camp anyway, not that much different from the slave labour camps of the Third Reich.

I OBSERVE BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND. (#84)

JJ, this is a serious request for an outline of how you see the whole EU agenda. I am at a loss as to why Britain has 'rolled over' to the 'New European Century' when, surely, this makes most of our wannabe-powerful politicians small fish in a big pool? Are they even dumber than I thought???

When politicians sell out to BIG BUSINESS and then leave office for big private money, I can see the logic; but that doesn't work with the EU - does it?

Is the EU Smersh or Spectre? Who's the evil genius at the back of the plan to Balkanise Britain? Lay it out with no mnemonics, specialist terminology, or the like, just a clear picture of what is in your head - there is nothing in mine . . .

And may I repeat the request for how you envisage a 'steer' on differential breeding?
Put that in a separate post as the Blogdog will probably have it for breakfast.

'neilrobertson (#82) Remember the Paxman-Howard exchange over Lewis! This time Smith is being criticised for not interfering.'
writed JadedJean.

Smith initiated the leak enquiry. She knew that one of her civil servants was arrested.
She declined to comment on whether she had signed bugging orders .....................

She also kept referring to other cases - clearly Labour is still smarting over the interview under caution of some of the
people involved in the Levy case?

Note too that both Boris Johnson and Cameron appear to have been told in advance that an arrest was imminent?
And the Cabinet Secretary was told ...

So it does seem a little strange that at
no point did someone alert Ministers??

I think this needs a proper investigation - the constitutional implications do matter.

ARTICLE II - A TROJAN HORSE

barrie (#87) Well, I've outlined this before in many posts, but in essence, successive governments form Thatcher on, have been eroding the power of the state in favour of market forces. What they mean by 'freedom' is freedom from state regulation, 'big government'. The way to do that is to pass laws which limit the power of the state or Puiblic Sector. That's what I see the EU doing too. It does it across Europe and the price one pays is statehood. It's a clever way of reducing the powers of governments (which is what capitalism is all about). As this has been going on for some time in the UK (and elsewhere) and as those who are members of the main parties are all essentially free-market Liberal-Democrats, I'm not sure that any of them would notice any further loss of power. They can't do much as it is - that's what all the legislation has ensured. They are probably in it largely for narcissistic supply, like actors are? It's others who profit from their all too human failings.

Is this Balkanisation of Britain good or bad? I'm not sure. Maybe we do need smaller adminstrative regions (London, SE, NW etc) but all I've seen in recent times is anarchism, i.e breaking up of the Civil Service. PFI/PPP is everywhere, it's even happening to schools through Building Schools for the Future BSF and as one of the links further back pointed out, the cost-effectiveness and efficiency of this 'solution' is controversial.

For too long, I couldn't make much sense of why successive governments from Thatcher on all seemed to be doing the same thing, i.e weakening the Civil Servce and Public Sector. This is my best shot at explaining why they all appear to be behaving like Trots. The free market hates the state. But democracy from below is not what it seems.

On the eugenics issue, as it's proscribed by Article II of the EU Human Rights charter in the Lisbon Treaty at the moment I don't see how what I have said can be legally effected (as it is, in part, in China). I hadn't realised until now that Steve Jones had come out so strongly on the dangers here, but I'm glad he did. I suspect many people who onstruct tthis legislation mean well, but I fear there are others who know exactly what's being done and they care little about people, just making money out of them as naive (childlike) consumers. Caveat emptor means very little when one doesn't have much awareness but it can be great for business. Stack rubbish high and sell it cheap to the free and yet undiscriminating...

How's that?

Some still won't see/have it.

FREEDOM IS A BREAKFAST CERIAL

Very appreciative JJ - thanks.

"I've outlined this before" - yes but always in JJ-speak. Sincere thanks for restraint.

I understand America has/had its scheming Neocons who want world domination - has the EU got a similar bunch? If not whence volition and direction for the EU project? (It has a sci-fi alien doppelganger quality - i.e. UK politicians duplicated and controlled.)

I suppose if 'all the world's a stage', the amount of that stage a narcissistic politician feels they have access to MIGHT get them to be a smaller fish - but . . .

I don't think I have ever heard one of our BBC attack dogs ask a minister why they have settled for being a cipher in a proscribed-banana state, when they could have blagged it as a power-to-be-reckoned-with for a bit longer.

Incidentally, I always felt the 'spectre' of FEDERALISM made no sense. Was it all part of the con? Like the spectre of Terror under the Terrace? I could never see what was wrong with a United States of Europe, with far less interference in small but precious idiosyncracies.

In passing (I might be repeating) I bought a thin paper, fine print, draft EU constitution and tried to read it. Now that WAS surreal! But I registered (after a while) that the word 'power(s)' had been changed to 'competence(s)' and my rat-sensor registered 'smelly'. Once again 'fool or knave' reared its head - as so often. Any concerned person of moderate ability would have rumbled the switch. The next logical step is to ask: THEN WHY DO IT? What accrues makes no sense. Anyway - when 'no' equals 'yes' in voting, why bother with changing 'power' to 'competence'. The whole crazy business is 1984 crossed with Alice in Wonderland and The Prisoner.
Perhaps they are past narcissism and into full blown madness? I say that without humour.

I hope the above is not too dumb. The whole thing seems surreal to me. I am most definitely a number and freedom is a breakfast cereal.

OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY

Follow-up. It isn't hard to see how it will be the big players like Tesco, Sainsbury, WalMart and other big retailers who will be able (like high profile Russian 'oligarchs') to comply with the EU 'regulations'. It will drive small business out. We've seen how when Paxman visited farms. On the one hand we are told Liberal-Social-Democracy is all about freedom and equality, but as we've seen over the past year, what it really comes down to is a financial elite making a lot of money out of the rest who are far too naive and trusting.

The way the Russian 'Oligarchs' did it show this at its ugliest.

When regulators (or the police) are branded 'nazis', one should be concerned.

# 91 Spot on JJ

Its a feature of the Corporate Nazi plan to force all small businesses to close unless they are the holders of a corporate franchise. The latest episode in a nearby small town is parking changes and restrictions which will reduce the available spaces on the main shopping street by 40%. Its all been pushed though on the strength of improving disabled access to pavements ( wider for scooters ), a new bus stop even though there is already one quite nearby. The local Corporate Nazi leaning politicians passed it despite many many objections and letters in the local paper from traders and customers alike.

Unfortunately the trade unions can be just as bad, promoting " politically correct " new legislation which make life almost impossible for small employers.

UK 'closer' to adopting the euro


BBC Report


It's becoming clearer and clearer to me why Mr Brown is going for bust !

78. At 5:43pm on 30 Nov 2008, JadedJean

Jacquie Smith did a very professional job handling Andrew Marr's aggressive questioning, I thought.

Meanwhile, some others might have felt the questioning was not as aggressive at it might be, and Ms. Smith came across as anything but the 'clear' that was billed with each 'statement' being preceded with "let me/us be clear...".

IMHO. But thanks for sharing. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

I have heard this government referred to as one 'Of All Talents' (GOATS). If her stuttering, defensive/belligerent performance was anything to go by I'd be hard pressed to feel comfort to be under the care of what more seemed a Rabbit Frozen in Headlights.

However, she did manage to make clear the origins of some accusations of 'Nanny State' as part of the GOAT herd when on more comfortable grounds of banning everything in sight.

EUROPEAN (TROT) OR BRIT (STALINIST)?

"Former Labour minister Denis MacShane told the BBC's Today programme that Mr Martin should apologise to MPs for allowing police to search Mr Green's office.
//
"The police, the agents of the state, do not storm in there and start breaking in, going into offices and taking away files that all our constituents think will be treated confidentially."
//
"However, constitutional expert Vernon Bogdanor of Oxford University said the row was a "storm in a teacup".

"The important principle is that MPs - apart from when they're speaking in the chamber and dealing with constituents' correspondence - are as subject to the same laws as the rest of us," he added."

BBC NEWS 1st Dec 2008

Given that permission was granted, is it not the case that here, Mr MacShane (nee Matyjaszek) is being economical with the truth, or is it that he is just a mite confused? Either way, it's a tad worrying when he an ex Minister of State for Europe (like Jim Murphy) behaves in such a way, it's enough to make one wonder to what extent one can take politcians at face value.

Having seen Murphy before the European Scrutiny Committee this year, neither appear to be 'Stalinists', which is a mite worrying if that's just another term for statists these days.

This is all a bit disconcerting is it not?

JunkMale (#94) "I'd be hard pressed to feel comfort to be under the care of what more seemed a Rabbit Frozen in Headlights."

As I keep trying to 'share', what if their job is not to be Stalinist (to regulate and direct as in a Democratic Centralist government), but on the contrary, to prevent government from getting in the way of market forces? Such a 'nightwatchman' (democracy from below) model is de rigueur in Liberal-Democracies, but its implications are rarely taken on board by commentators.

As I keep saying, I fear there are some quite radical 'hands-off' people in this government.

it's enough to make one wonder to what extent one can take politicians at face value.

Can't speak for others, but on this, we cannot be anything but at one.

And it will be interesting to see if Newsnight will today be able to rouse itself to get a tad more interested in this story than it has to date, and with more than a carefully selected crew of commentators to ensure heat if not illumination.

Politicians and 'news' 'reviewers' such as Kevin 'I'm not saying anything, nudge nudge, wink-wink, but Aunty likes it when I say things she can't.. er shouldn't' Maguire, the ever charming if often selective Ms. Chakrabarti, or their choice of fulminating Col. Blimp types are seldom helpful.

Ta for including Mr. Macshane's earlier name incarnation. Is there relevance to this I have missed?

RADICAL HANDS-OFF POLITICIANS (#96)

JJ - I have never been much good at holding abstract concepts in my head and manoeuvring them in 3D to find a 'fit'.

If I synthesise your view of governance with my view of de-mock-crass-y, I end up with a parliament of individuals who, since entering politics (for a variety of reasons) have been 'turned' to service of the New European Century. Have I got that anywhere near right? Do you reckon they KNOW or are they being manipulated by the 'group mind'? Would that work?

At first glance, my title (echoing your post) is a complex non-sequitur. Are such mentalities 'described in the literature'? Not easy (for me) to see them as narcissistic.
Having written that, I am reminded that Westminster 'chooses its own' before offering them to the voters in the exercise of demockcrassy. After all - in marriage, the level of matching of underlying psychology is startling.

Your thesis becomes more tenable.

Mr Barroso Euro Comments

"I know that the majority in Britain are still opposed, but there is a period of consideration under way and the people who matter in Britain are currently thinking about it," he said.

99. At 11:36am on 01 Dec 2008, Steve-London

We all matter, I'm sure.

I just suspect that some perhaps matter more than others:)

Looking forward to what may be deemed worthy of sharing and 'interpreting' in the public interest tonight.

And guessing this comment and a not unrelated ongoing matter in Westminster might again rate third or fourth minor para billing in favour of something 'sparkly'.

But you never know.