Should Pope John Paul II be beatified?

If he was able to cure a nun from Parkinson's disease, and he was afflicted with the ailment himself, then why did he not cure himself ?
Miracles are a figment of the imagination - we live in a REAL world where 'miracles' don't happen .

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Seriously, who cares what gongs the catholic church give it's dead honchos? Means absolutely nothing to the real world.

Being as its mumbo Jumbo they can do what they wish. Bit like asking If I wanted to be a Jedi Knight its just a made up title that has no bearing on the real world. bit like the MBE's and other awards that are scattered around each year. For every well deserving nominee theres always a bunch of Old School pals cleaning up.

I do not believe/disbelieve in saints or miracles, but I did like Pope John Paul II and think overall he was a very good Pope.

If a way of recognizing this is to label him a "saint" later and "blessed" now, why not.

After reading the word 'beatified' I assumed he was being flogged or something.

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Sainthood is the blessing and recognition of the people not the Vatican. Why was Mother Theresa not voted for a blessing?? Because she was female possibly.

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Beatification = jobs for the boys, dressed up in mumbo jumbo.

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Surely a Catholics only debate?!

There are somewhat tangible tests to decide whether a person is to be beatified and then canonized. These were set up for a reason. They are not scientific by any means but at least make some appeal to colder logic.

The Vatican has completely jettisoned these standards first in the case of Mother Teresa and now with Pope John Paul 2. These were good humans but to be titled a saint must mean more than just "we liked them so much" This is like a kangaroo trial in reverse. The verdict is a foregone conclusion, merely a matter of time. All someone has to do is claim "he/she cured me through my faith" - and that apparently is enough.

Would the Vatican also canonize me if someone came forward and said so through simple word of mouth?

the process of confirming so called miracles is very dubious to the point of being laughable. I'd like to see the medical evidence myself...

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If you ask me, it's a bit unfair not including George and Ringo.

Brilliant. Just as I'm starting to think all that bible stuff may have been made up the Vatican step in and restore my confidence. I'm now 100% confident there is a god. Lets all just make stuff up and become saints, in fact now I think about it I do remember watching Back to the Future III around the general time this lady was cured, Michael J Fox suffers from Parkinsons, could I possibly be the chosen one?

Just over two weeks since the last HYS rant on religion. Bring on the atheists, bring on the superstitious people who believe that there can be scientific evidence in support of religion. Bring on those equally superstitious who demand scientific proof for the existence of God.

But I would like to hear those who might seek proof of religion in great works of art and music. No scientific proof there. Tut tut. Too narrow a criterion for truth. Bye bye.

Errr... what miracle would that be then? I reckon Kenny Dalglish should be beatified if he can get Liverpool into the top 5 this season. That would be a real miracle.

As nuns I'd assume these ladies probably pray to god on a daily basis. Why haven't they attributed this miracle to him as he seems to be a more likely candidate?

I heard of beautifying, cosmetic surgery & botox to enhance image but this beatification image enhancement I'm not familiar with.

More mumbo jumbo. Let them do what they like with their superstitions. Beatified of not, there will be no difference whatsoever to the real world.

The only miracle is that people support the Catholic church after all that it has done to innocents in the name of God, especially in the 20th Century.

The vatican is just a relic from a medieval age when people believed a lot of rubbish about miracles and even witches !

How silly how inane, how stupid!

Please provide us with intelligent questions, it is in my humble opinion time that organised religion was made illegal in the western world and all treasures/land/property, etc from both church of rome and c of e was given to poor and needy people, that would actually be christianity!

Perhaps next time god could cure one of the millions of Africans suffering from Aids, they seem more deserving and he is after all partly to blame...

Old engineer's light hearted joke, NOT to be taken seriously.

I am an engineer.
The impossible I do at once, miracles take just a little longer.

Awesome, I'm sure I could come up with something equally valid, can I be a Saint too?

"9. At 12:23pm on 14 Jan 2011, Tomjo59 wrote:

What a ridiculous, medieval ritual!
Are there still people, so backward and poorly educated, to whom this nonsense still means something? In the 21st Century ??"

Sadly there are. Millions. Have you consdered why the poorer parts of the world and catholicism are generally one and the same. Skint Euro Zone countries - Ireland / Portugal / Spain (and Greece which has a similar medieval nonsense under a different name.)

Why is this yet another HYS waste of space?

BBC frightened yet again to debate something that they might not like the answers they get?

As for this story - I credit myself with the miraculous cure of a nun with nothing wrong with her, so I am waiting on the phone call......

What's the difference between a Miracle and Magic?

If a woman had "cured" someone of Parkinson's a couple of centuries ago the Roman Catholic Church would have tortured her and burned her at the stake as a witch...but if the "cure" is attributed to a dead Pope - it's a miracle!

Yes.

If Obama got a Nobel peace prize for nothing, why shouldn't others get awards for nothing?

If any Pope should be beatified, it is Pope John Paul II.
It's not the miracle that's important, though a requirement of the Catholic Church for beatification. It's the utter humility of the man; his ability to listen, to do his very best at all times.
e.g. During his inauguration, when the cardinals were to kneel before him to take their vows and kiss his ring, he stood up as the Polish prelate Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński knelt down, stopped him from kissing the ring, and hugged him.
As for the miraculous cure, it seems a little week to me - a nun said to have had Parkinson's Disease. Convincing evidence of a miracle - usually a medical cure with no scientific explanation - is essential in the beatification process, the first step to sainthood. The Rome diocese's website lists dozens of testimonials from individuals claiming cures at the hands of the late Pope, but to qualify as a miracle the recovery must be sudden, complete and permanent - as well as inexplicable by doctors.
Do you agree with his beatification?
As little as I believe in any beatification, I agree that John Paul II was one of the world's greatest popes; so, if the procedure should apply to anyone, it should apply to him.
What is the legacy of John Paul II?
His teachings, reflected in: 14 papal encyclicals and innumerable, but memorable quotations, such as
- “The future starts today, not tomorrow.”
- “As the family goes, so goes the nation and so goes the whole world in which we live.”
What would his beatification mean for the Catholic church?
The closure of the church investigation. Pope Benedict XVI waived the customary five-year waiting period for the procedure to begin. This was without doubt, a response to the popular demand that began ay John Paul's funeral: "Santo Subito!" or "Sainthood Now!".
It would be a popular move, perhaps revitalizing the Catholic Church.

Pope John Paul II was the first Pope I ever had any respect for; he accepted scientific research as fact and put a lot of time and effort into reaching out to people of other faiths and those with none in an attempt to bring some Peace to the world.

He wasn't perfect but he is possibly the greatest Pope of all time and deserves a great deal of praise for the good that he tried to do. I'm not a Catholic so can't really comment on his suitability for beatification but I would certainly say that he should be remembered with a great deal of respect and that throughout his life he gave Catholics a very good example of how they should live their lives.

Oh, please...if I want fairy stories I'll read one of my grand-daughter's books.

At 12:16pm on 14 Jan 2011, paul wrote:
Being as its mumbo Jumbo they can do what they wish. Bit like asking If I wanted to be a Jedi Knight its just a made up title that has no bearing on the real world. bit like the MBE's and other awards that are scattered around each year. For every well deserving nominee theres always a bunch of Old School pals cleaning up.

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Isn't Jedi an accepted 'religion' now ? I thought that campaign a few years ago during the national census to get people to put down Jedi received enough support for this to happen ! Maybe it's time for the Jedi's to act and beatify Princess Leia.
I suppose beatifying the second John Paul makes up for, allegedly, bumping off the first one..

This is not news, this is madness caused by religion. Are people really that stupid to believe?????

Sadly they are, you fools!!!!!

To Answer the question No, or should every anti aircraft gunner of the second world war have that done to them?

With all the other news going on, the BBC have yet again set up a HYS where Catholics and others with a religious or spiritual belief can receive a bashing (although it certainly can demonstrate that many atheists are as unpleasant as some of the religious believers they take the oportunity to trounce).

Well done - not.

1. At 12:11pm on 14 Jan 2011, campaign123 wrote:
If he was able to cure a nun from Parkinson's disease, and he was afflicted with the ailment himself, then why did he not cure himself ?

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Personal gain, believeing it was Gods will for him to suffer, Job type being tested by the disease?

Surely it's up to Catholics who believe in this whether he is a Saint or not? (incidentally, as the Pope is infallable and God's voice on the planet- shouldn't he just have to decide himself?)

How can anyone consider bestowed any type of 'blessing' on the head of a man who is the leader of an organised religion that has perpetrated so much abuse of innocent children and the vulnerable?

Since the end of the Second World War, sexual attacks by catholic priests on children mushroomed. What did the various Popes, including John Paul II, do to root out and defrock paedophile priests?

It would seem the answer is precious little.

The frightening thing about this is it's not just badly/uneducated people that believe in such fairy stories.

What a load of Tosh, Britains rudderless and people are talking fantasy world.

This is absolute nonsense! The Vatican should provide some medical evidence that can be substantiated that this nun had Parkinson's and is now cured.

NO!Don't agree with it.

So, Nestlé funded research says we need to start feeding solids to babies from 4 months.

A catholic nun says she was cured by praying to a dead catholic pope.

What will we hear next? Bankers saying banker's bonuses are for the good of all of us?

Well, I suppose you can fool some of the people some of the time.

I think that the church should remeber it is not existing in Medieaval Europe and if you want to beatify anyone there are many more people who have done many more wonderful things than the late Pope - heavens jobs for the boys

I don't know about miracles but I do think the previous pope seemed a good pontiff and more importantly a good man. (Rare in these times!) Pity they never similarly remember any woman who does good - like mother Theresa - though.

My mum has Parkinson's, and frankly I find this whole thing incredibly offensive. Not only is it a slap in the face of medical science, logic and common sense, it's also quite a nasty thing to claim Parkinson's can be cured, but only if you REALLY REALLY believe in a man in the clouds. I'm sorry if I offend the religious, but this is garbage.

Actually, I'm not sorry if I offend the religious. They offend me every time they fall to their knees.

Am I the only one worried that a cult which can follow an old man voted for by other old men, beleive in seemingly fabricated "miracles", have proven to have been complicit in child abuse an so on have so many followers in the world?

This is all a little sad, really. The idea that mere men in frocks can make 'saints' was debunked so hard, for so long, by Biblical Christians since the end of the Roman Catholic Dark Ages that I am surprised people are not rolling in the streets laughing. What's next? The selling of indulgences?

To give such uncritical reporting to what is to Christians a pagan religious practice, without giving the Biblical balance, and pointing out that such things have been utterly debunked in the past amounts to pope-a-ganda.

What's next, BBC? Having the leader of the Catholic relgion whom virtually no Catholic obeys, so cannot actually be called their leader, as Head of the British State religion?

If independant(NOT church appointed)doctors can conclusively prove that he & he alone cured her, with no help from modern medicine or science & if they can prove that she had parkinsons in the first place, which seems to be under some doubt then why not?

I won't hold my breath.

Being 'popular' doesn't make one a saint ....

Do you agree with his beatification? Or is it too soon for it to happen? What is the legacy of John Paul II?

Man in asylum proclaims he is the son of god.

An increase in the medication surely?,

The only miracle here is that anyone actually believes this superstitious twaddle.

There is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5

Is it time for the monthly Catholic bashing already?

Only two more before Easter.

Depressingly unsurprising. Karol Wojtyła was part of the inexorable drive towards ultra conservatism at the Vatican. He supported Opus Dei and took appalling stances on sexuality issues, causing misery to millions of poor and a retreat for the position of women in the Catholic Church. These things alone (and there is more that one could find wanting in him) prove that this man was no saint, by anyone's definition. The only Pope in the last 100 years worthy of respect as a saintly man, beloved by people of many faiths and none, was Angelo Roncalli (John XXIII) - even Wojtyła's much lauded internationalism was started by Roncalli and much more revolutionary in his day. Ironically, Roncalli's populist and non-autocratic reign was probably largely responsible for the subsequent string of increasingly ultra-conservative Popes. That humble man, I suspect, sent a chill of fear through the minds of Catholic right.

However, the whole notion of sainthood is a nonsense. We are expected to believe that the road of veneration, beatification and sainthood are directed by a god when such appointments are strictly political moves by the Church complete with spin, lobbying and canvassing and an absence of any supernatural agency. Even, so-called miracles, more properly unexplained events, happen more without prayers to a candidate for sainthood than with. In addition, the Church is incapable it seems of recognising saintliness in anyone except members of its own congregation. Such appointments are irrelevant to the rest of the world except in what they tell us about that Church. It can do as it pleases. The rest of us are capable of deciding for ourselves who inspires us and whom we respect.

So either....

A miracle didn't take place and this nun is either totally deluded and / or has an inflated sense of grandeur.

or

A miracle did take place, and the spirit of a dead pope decides that it is better to cure a nun of a disease (she quite probably never had in the first place), than it is to cure people who have contracted HIV because the Vatican told them not to use condoms.

Either result says everything about the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church.

I'll believe it when I see him repeating his miracle in front of a live studio audience - oops, too late. Come to think of it, I wouldn't believe it then...

Oh dear, - the sky fairy believers are at it again with the superstitious nonsense..

Seriously BBC, the con-census amongst rational sane people is that religion is for people who are seriously lacking mental capacity to comprehend the true nature of our universe and the overwhelming supporting evidence to the back up the scientific theories. The sooner our species puts away these childish toys from our infancy as a species and moves on past the middle ages the better for all man/woman kind.

Miraculous "cure" from an undiagnosed illness? Dangerous nonsense. I expect nothing less from the Catholic church.

We (the West) are quick to criticise the likes of Iran (where they enforce the death penalty for balsphemy) but we allow this equally ridiculous nonsense to go on.

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This is possibly the most ridiculous comment I have seen. I do not belive in organised religion, and thus do not consider beatification as something important, but to compare a brutal thocracy handing out the death penalty for blasphemy to the Catholic church making an ex-pope a saint (an act which, let's face it, no-one is going to be stoned to death or hanged for) is quite the most obsurd thing I have ever read. This poster is one of the many on here who will use anything and everything to try and make a political point.

Let them have their fun. It is all a sham for the weak minded religious anyway.

Please tell me this is a joke. Please tell me people don't really believe in miracles in the XXI century! As for merit, that man (John Paul II) was not the harmless fool some other contributors imply, but a retrograde responsible for setting back the progress of humanity by decades.

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15. At 12:29pm on 14 Jan 2011, ruffled_feathers wrote:
Surely a Catholics only debate?!


It certainly wasn't 'a catholics only debate' when we all had to cough up for Joe's visit for the farce of beatifying J H Neuman in Birmingham last year! Mumbojumbo at its best!!!

Should Pope John Paul II be beatified?

Surely, that's for the Supreme Being to decide? LOL

What would be a miracle would be if the Christians gave up Church land, Muslims gave up the Mosques & Jews sold the Synagogues.
By selling that land, they could solve many of the world's sufferings, now wouldn't that be the kind religious thing to do?

No

I think he should be remembered for his defence of the Catholic Church's moral teaching against the use of artificial birth control, including the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV.

This results in countless deaths and millions of AIDS orphans and the exacerbation of Third World poverty and problems such as street children in South America

Also for maintaining the Church's unbroken opposition to homosexual behaviour and same-sex marriage as well as his traditional positions on the roles of women, which included rejecting women priests.

The Vatican's doctors said it wasn't a misdiagnosis of the nun's affliction - funny that - so it must have been a miracle.

There was me thinking it was all complete tosh – right, mass on Sunday it is then...

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15. At 12:29pm on 14 Jan 2011, ruffled_feathers wrote:
Surely a Catholics only debate?


There would be no debate.

It seems strange that we only hear about this miracle now, after he has died.

Surely at the time we should have taken him to the nearest Parkinsons disease research unit and got a few scientist to do some research and find a possible cure?

How very strange...

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I'm not a catholic and therefore have no interest on what they do to Pope John Paul it's entirley up to them but I am amused that most of the posts have come from the atheists. If you want to believe in a non God existence that again is entirely up to you but the drivel you come out with beats any beatitude. 'I get offended each time someone drops to their knees' quote no. 54 their really aren't enjoying life if they can't stand someone humbly praying. What a sad existence that person must have. I couldn't convince an atheist I'm right but conversely an atheist can't convince me I'm wrong. Is it not possible just to agree to disagree or are they so insecure they want safety in numbers to make themselves feel better about a life ridled with unfairness and no hope. Hope I get comes from a redeeming love of a Saviour but as you don't have that it would be interesting to find out where atheists get their hope for the future if they don't believe in a future and a life after this one.

23. At 12:37pm on 14 Jan 2011, Dr Llareggub wrote:
Just over two weeks since the last HYS rant on religion. Bring on the atheists, bring on the superstitious people who believe that there can be scientific evidence in support of religion. Bring on those equally superstitious who demand scientific proof for the existence of God.

But I would like to hear those who might seek proof of religion in great works of art and music. No scientific proof there. Tut tut. Too narrow a criterion for truth. Bye bye.


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There are many artists who have shown mystical belief through art and music and who have stood apart from a controlled religion. Some of them being pagan, some of the old mystery schools traditions.

If you believe or feel the notion that maybe you can look anywhere.

Science and faith were once one school from the time of Babylon and before through the Egyptians and the Greeks. Both interlocked to gain knowledge and so we have the basis for science now. Pythagorus, Da Vinci and others too many to mention all stand out.

The only recent Pope worth beatifying was John Paul 1 for the miracle of attempting to modernise the Papacy and bringing it into the arms of contemporary society. JP11 gets the nod for allowing others to give him direction

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Blessed are the humble.

Honestly, who cares?

Can't the BBC understand that its obsession with religion is utterly pathetic. This is not a religious country. It is certainly not a roman catholic country. The only large communties which ARE religious are ethnic minorities and East Europeans.

The average real Brit just doesn't care.

Drop Thought for the Day, Prayer for the Day, Sunday (the programme, not the day), Sunday worship etc, and stop talking about religion as if it was important.


How about a thread about the Tunisian riots? Something important, for a change.

@ marie who thinks mother teresa was 'good'. Please see christopher hitchens video and book about dear old Agnes. And you presumably a woman as well...shameful.

Has this woman not since fallen ill again? I'm sure I read that recently. Surely that would cause something of a problem with the process?

I didn't hear about the nun, but I think that miracles can be worked in more ways than one. Pope John Paul II was an amazing man, a true Catholic, a role model that moved the religion further into the modern time, and for that reason, I think he ought to be a Saint.

The Catholic Church never ceases to be an endless source of amusement...

@69

I completely disagree with your outrage; it was fair comment.

All organised religions are a joke. It makes me want to cry how so many people will believe in something they have never seen nor seen a scrap of credible evidence demonstrating its existence.

May as well believe in Pixies and Unicorns...

61. At 1:12pm on 14 Jan 2011, andy wrote:

There is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5

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Said a man called Timothy. Or actually, by someone else on behalf of a man called Timothy.

Nothing more than an excercise in non-regulated self-back slapping in "miracle healing" of one of its blinkered followers (i.e. the nun)

The thing that is most depressing is that intelligent people still believe in this make belive storybook nonsense!

Here we go again - more smoke and mirrors from the Vatican's PR Dept. Their strategy - let's not discuss the real issues facing the future of the church. Instead, let's release a distraction; a "feel good" story (to some at least!.

Wow. He 'cured' a nun of Parkinsons.

I suppose that makes up for all the AIDs related deaths in Catholic dominated African nations due to his stance on condoms then?

A 'saint' is nothing more than a self-imposed heirachical title given by the cult/religion - it means nothing in the real world

Not having reviewed the evidence presented to the Holy Father, I could not possibly say.