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EDITIONS
Tuesday, 15 October, 2002, 10:49 GMT 11:49 UK
School exclusions: Should the law be changed?
Education Secretary Estelle Morris is at the centre of a dispute between school authorities and the parents of two boys reinstated to a school despite making death threats against a teacher.

The parents will meet local education authority officials on Friday, where it is hoped they can be persuaded to find another school for the GCSE exam year pupils - a move backed by Ms Morris.

The pair were expelled in June for making abusive calls to teacher Steve Taverner, allegedly telling him he was "going to get stabbed in the back of the head".

The boys' parents went to an independent appeal board, which said the boys should go back to school. However, the Education Secretary intervened, saying they should not be allowed to return.

The incident has turned the spotlight again on the powers schools have to exclude pupils.

What do you think? Are the laws on school exclusions in need of radical change?

This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.


Your reaction

Any act of violence against teachers trying to impose discipline should be frowned upon by the authority. Who wants to be a teacher if teaching means having death threat against you? I believe the parents and their children should be punished as it is the parents who should have instilled moral values. Unfortunately, some of these parents do not want to take responsibility for their chidren's behaviour.
Steve, UK

To whom, precisely, are these appeal boards accountable? They clearly don't account to Ms Morris for their actions. Authority without accountability is matched in nonsense only by delegation without control.
Stephen Nelson, France


The appeal process is necessary

TAA, England
I have presented evidence to many appeals panels (admission and exclusion) in my time. I admire the volunteers who become panel members and sympathise with their often thankless task. In my view, the last government and the present one have both weakened the quality of rigorous challenge and consistent decision making by tinkering with the constitution of appeals panels in the name of "independence". The appeal process is necessary but because of the way members are appointed, almost anything can happen. The law should be tightened up to improve the membership of such panels.
TAA, England

School is a formative experience. What experience is being conveyed to the lads concerned and other pupils? If the lads are ultimately allowed to get away with their misdeeds, which are actually almost unprecedented bad, the message is that thuggery works. We need to reflect that what society accepts as permissible now is the fruit of what was taught about twenty years ago. What will we see in another twenty years time?
David Parsons, England

People should not pass comment on the particular case until they have actually read the judgment of the Appeal Panel. At a more general level, it is a good idea to have an appeal panel. There will be borderline cases where the school have simply got it wrong. If the appeal panel get it badly wrong, the school/LEA can always appeal again to the High Court.
Mike, UK

As far as I'm concerned, permanent exclusion is not an over-reaction in the case of these two boys. Such insubordinate bullying should not be tolerated in any place of work or study.
Craig Laycock, UK


This undermines the authority that the school management have

Dave Tiltman, Wales, UK
I am frankly appalled by the decision to let the children back into school after what they have done. This undermines the authority that the school management have and offers an invitation to any other children to do the same and get away with it.
Dave Tiltman, Wales, UK

David Tiltman has put it perfectly. The boy's mother obviously needs help to make her appreciate the scale of the problem and the rights of others to live in a decent society
Eric Watts, UK

I am used to the parents of 4 and 5 year olds coming into school seeking to excuse bad behaviour exhibited by their children in school, but for it to be still continuing at aged 15 suggests that the parents themselves have no idea about the concept of taking responsibility for ones own behaviour. Shame on them.
Chris, England

Every employee, including teachers, has the right to be safe at work. If the teacher's employer can't find a solution, shouldn't the teachers' unions be doing this? The union could threaten to bring a private prosecution against the boys if they set foot in that school again.
Allie, UK

Maybe we should let the boys be educated in a detention centre. Let them have their education but strip them of every privilege they have. Pupils and staff should feel secure at school not terrorised by disrespectful hooligans.
Lorraine, MK


Estelle Morris is right

Colin, Peru
Teaching is a relationship between student and teacher. It is difficult to see in this case how the relationships would benefit if these students returned given the publicity. The students (and it appears their parents) will now see this as an issue of conflict. If they are re-admitted the staff and management of the school will feel wholly undermined and the students will be seen to have threatened a teacher and won a public battle. Estelle Morris is right, there is nothing to be gained and much to be lost be re-admitting them.
Colin, Peru

As an ex-pupil of Glyn, I must say that in my day this would not have escalated to this stage. Behaviour of pupils outside of the classroom was regulated by prefects, who had the power of detention. Unruly pupils tended to respect prefects more than teachers, partly because there is a natural admiration for people a few years above you at school.
Richard Lovell, UK

Whilst these children and their shameful parents have won, society loses. A teacher and the rest of the school work in fear for the sake of two students ruining it for the others. The problems in the playground then become problems in the street which these people on appeals board don't have to do deal with but the rest of us do.
Alan Knipmeyer, Japan

I was a student at Glyn Technology School for six years, and know the victim and the headmaster very well. Those pathetic children deserved to be expelled, and I feel proud to say that I was educated at this school.
Alex, UK


Teachers suffer enough abuse at school

TT, UK
I think that as soon as public servants cannot feel safe at home after carrying out their duties (correctly or incorrectly), our society has deteriorated into low-grade anarchy. Teachers suffer enough abuse at school, but now the green light has been given to take it to their homes. Next it will be their families who are threatened.
TT, UK

These boys should have been prosecuted by the police. There can be no excuse for such behaviour. Moreover, the protestations of one mother only add to the seriousness of it all.
Jethro, UK

I can't believe the parents want their children back at the school. What kind of parenting is that? Those boys have forfeited all their rights and their parents should know it and teach them at home.
Richard, Panama


If a child so clearly breaches the law then they have to learn that there are consequences

Robert, UK

It is absolutely monstrous that the appeal panel should have overturned the decision of the head and governors in this way. How did they imagine that these pupils would ever be made to respond to any sort of discipline in that school again?
Phil,England

As a teacher, I fully support the teacher and school in this case! How can parents expect their children to be educated successfully when both children and staff are subjected to such vindictive and aggressive acts. How would the parents of these two boys have reacted if a member of staff had threatened them?! As teachers we have no recourse to intimidating behaviour; we are penalised for placing a hand on a child even if that is done in a defensive way. It is about time that young people and their parents realise that they are responsible for their behaviour.
Ali,UK

It seems as if both the appeals panel and the parents have forgotten that with rights there also comes responsibilities. It may be that there is an entitlement to have your child educated at the school you would like (though only in theory as many parents know), but parents and children also have responsibilities too. If a child so clearly breaches the law then they have to learn that there are consequences to such actions, if they learn that they can get away with this then heaven help them in their future.
Robert, UK

Not only should the rules in respect of exclusions be changed, but all the rules concerning the disciplining of students. The removal of corporal punishment for bad behaviour gave a green light to those who wished to act with impunity. In schools as well as in society the lack of an effective deterrent leads to disregard for the rules.
Conor Maguire, South Korea

Exclusion is the only weapon a school has against unruly and disruptive pupils but it fails to work. If you exclude someone who doesn't want to be at school in the first place are you not playing into their hands? It's a double-edged sword. You can't allow the opportunities for the many to be marred by the behavioural issues of the few. Head teachers should be trusted to create a disciplined regime in their own school - not suggesting that corporal punishment is a good idea - but we need to respect the integrity of those who run our schools and educate our children.
Mark, UK


My daughter was delighted when her son was excluded

Carole A Warren, England
My daughter was delighted when her 13-year-old son was excluded from his class for disruptive behaviour. He has been put in a class with a handful of other children where he gets almost one to one teaching by specialist teachers, and he loves it and is doing well. He is now attaining his potential, as he is a bright child who cannot work well in the usual large classes taught by mediocre teachers at his local comprehensive, who cannot sustain the interest of many of their pupils, hence the boredom and consequent bad behaviour in class.
Carole A Warren, England

I am very concerned about the message being sent. By overturning the decisions of the teachers and the school, the appeal committee are telling parents and students alike that the behaviour is acceptable. I blame the appeal committee for not protecting the teachers and other students from what is obviously an evil element.
Vincent Kilcoyne, England

I would have thought these boys should be prosecuted! Teachers must be protected otherwise the education of all the other pupils suffers. No other profession is expected to put up with this sort of thing, why should teachers?
Simon, UK


They might have acted reasonably for all we know

Steve, UK
First, I'd like to hear exactly who comprised the appeals panel and what their reasons were for re-instating the boys in the face of some very disturbing allegations; they might have acted reasonably for all we know. It is curious that neither boy has been prosecuted, which might suggest that there is far more to this story than we've been told.
Steve, UK

My daughter is a bullying survivor; the schools she has attended seem powerless to sort the problem out. I feel that as long as students that exhibit this kind of behaviour are not treated as the criminals that they are, the problem will continue and worsen. Why aren't those students being charged under the telephony act as they would have been if their victim was not a teacher??
Claire, UK

If the head decides to exclude a pupil then no-one should be able to reverse that decision or it undermines his authority. Have the actions of all the do-gooders not ruined things? 25 odd years ago these lads would have got a good caning from the headmaster, learnt their lesson and be back in school a little wiser and this whole incident would have been dealt with quickly, without involving authorities, the media and a lot of wasted time and money.
Colin, England


If this happened in the USA the pupils would be in jail

Colin McCarthy, UK
If this incident had happened in the USA the pupils would be in jail. This is just another example of Britain being soft on punishment and a walk-over state. What would have happened if an over 18-year-old had made those death threats, would that be a criminal case? With increased violence from young people I think that they need to be criminally responsible.
Colin McCarthy, UK

The parents of these boys should be hanging their heads in shame, not forcing the school to take them back.
A. Catley, UK

We can dismiss this as just children fooling around, but the teacher would not have known this was the case.
Simon, UK

I know one of the mothers says she will not accept a deal and that her son has suffered enough disruption to his education, however HE is the cause of the disruption NOT the school. Expelling a pupil is always the last resort for any principal to take and only in exceptional circumstances should this decision be challenged. The mother should allow her boy to be taught elsewhere and therefore stop this disruption to both teachers and her son.
Paula, England


What an advert for private schools!

A S Blyth, Scotland
As someone who has spent nearly all their working life in private education (sometimes feeling a little guilty) I feel vindicated! What an advert for private schools!
A S Blyth, Scotland

The issue of private v. comprehensive has nothing to do with the terrible situation this teacher and school have been placed in. Shame on you AS Blyth - private schools have their own share of behavioural problems. And shame on you for being an advocate of wealth determining what a child's education is.
Grace Pickering, England

That one of their mothers thinks they should be allowed to attend the same school is astounding. I can't imagine she would welcome a teacher back to the school if he/she had sent death threats to her son. In fact if it was a teacher they wouldn't have been able to teach again anywhere, and would have been arrested, I'm sure. It's time better laws were put in place to protect teachers and make pupils responsible for their own actions.
Rachel, UK

These boys have made one teacher very ill and created a climate of fear in their school. Teachers and pupils have a right to work in environment free of fear and threats. Now these boys know that they can threaten staff and students without recrimination, what's to stop them repeating their actions when another teacher reprimands them? Appalling decision by the appeals board.
Deborah, UK

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