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Friday, 12 July, 2002, 09:52 GMT 10:52 UK
Is it too complicated to save?
Savers are discouraged from putting away enough money for their retirement because the finance industry is so difficult to comprehend, says a new report.

The review, led by former Lloyds of London chief Ron Sandler, claims that consumers have to turn to financial advisers to simplify the detail and choice of pensions and other products.

Relying on financial advisers to translate allows companies to collect charges and make commission and affects competition between providers.

The report calls for transparency with a range of easy-to-understand savings products which the public can buy directly.

Virgin Money say the straightforward products will be unpopular with the industry because high charges and complex products permit them to make more money.

Do you find pensions rules and conditions offputting? Have you got a pension? Is bypassing financial advisers be good for the consumer and the industry? How clear are you on your own pension and savings?


This Talking Point has now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.

Where is the motivation and indeed the confidence for me to save money in a pension when the Government is perfectly happy to step in and raid my hard earned piggy bank?
Steve Trumm, Britain

Saving - that is a joke! Living in Buckinghamshire and taking home �240 per week as a posty. How can one save in such an expensive area as this with more than a quarter of my wages going on rent? I know there are benefits available, but, even then, HOW CAN one save?
Mr Davidson, UK


Keep it all in a safe place

Victor D., Amsterdam, the Netherlands
The only person I trust with my money is myself, so I do save, cash, and keep it all in a safe place. And no, it isn't under the mattress. This way it may not accrue, but it certainly won't disappear either because of some scheme or charges or whatever.
Victor D., Amsterdam, the Netherlands

It makes not the slightest difference how easy or complicated it is to save when the majority of people who wish to do so cannot because of the level of direct or indirect taxation levied by this government.
Ralph Snape, England

Yes the savings industry could be made simpler, but I'm afraid it isn't that complex in the first place. Nothing that a bit of effort on the part of the potential saver couldn't overcome. The internet is absolutely stuffed with excellent personal finance sites and discussion boards, the only excuse these days for ignorance of what is available and what things mean is sheer laziness. If you don't have the internet there are plenty of books and magazines.
Steve, Scotland


Stop blaming others

J.M. (SAM), Malaysia
From personal experience in the UK, I can tell you, not all financial advisers are crooks. If you think the job's easy or glamorous, then try it. You may get a rude awakening. The simple 'secret' behind most major purchases (like an income for 20 or 30 years) is to make adequate funding. When people decide to contribute more time and money for a 2 week holiday in the sun than 20 years of retirement, then this is obviously not good enough. Stop blaming others. Make the decision to accept responsibility and plan properly. No excuses!
J.M. (SAM), Malaysia

Anyone with a mortgage, credit card debts or almost any form of loan should not be saving until they have paid these off. The interest payments saved by clearing debts far exceeds the return on any investment.
Simon, UK

People have lost faith in financial advisors who seem to be too intent on lining their own pockets rather than providing a good, suitable service
Bruce, England

A friend recently had his pension moved to a 'better performing' fund. When he looked into it after a year to see how it was doing he was shocked to find that 40% had been taken by the IFA and agency as fees from his fund for moving his investments. Even the most insane rate on a credit card is only 29.9% None of this was disclosed to him in plain English before he agreed, there is no way any right minded person would agree to giving up 40% of their fund for a simple move.
JJP, UK

Why aren't people saving more? Might I suggest that base rates at 4%, a booming house market, underperforming and poor value managed funds, slumping stock market prices, the pensions and endowments mis-selling scandal plus a government policy of taxing dividends on pension funds and using taxpayers' money to prop up those who haven't bothered to save for their retirement could conceivably have something to do with it?
Marc, UK


Most people genuinely don't know the rules of pensions and savings schemes and how they operate.

Jennifer, Netherlands
As a former pension administrator and now an accountant, I understand fully the way pension schemes work and the way most saving schemes work, but only because I was paid to learn and not because there was any clear information out there. I still find it amazing that most people genuinely don't know the rules of pensions and savings schemes and how they operate. But the biggest problem in my opinion is the fact that pensions are still so unportable - I put money into company schemes in various jobs in the UK and will never see a penny of them since I didn't work at the companies for anything longer than 2 years. And now I live in another country, I am stuck because I'm not allowed to make any pension contributions in the UK and I certainly won't retire in the Netherlands or live here long enough to produce a fund worth transferring to the UK. So I'm stuck either way and will lose out in thirty years time because I'm not allowed to do what I should be which is making contributions at the best time of my life to do it.
Jennifer, Netherlands, UK expat

As an IFA, I can tell you all that the reason pensions are complicated is that successive "pension reviews" bring in new legislation which do not replace the older legislation. You are therefore left with many different types of pension all having different rules. It is this intricate web of pension types that makes pensions complicated.
Richard N, MSFA, UK

It's not complicated! All the information needed to make an informed choice is freely available if you can be bothered to find it and read it! Inevitably, there will be a few people who genuinely lack the intellectual capacity to grasp and comprehend the information. Most people, however, are just too lazy!
John, England

Saving is difficult because it's a matter of discipline. You have to forgo an immediate reward for a greater reward later. However, if one truly has the discipline and means to save it is not that difficult. Start with a cash ISA - what could be easier. If you choose one that provides interest monthly, you'll get the monthly positive feedback of interest earned simply because you chose not to save it! Take responsibility for your own life... hoping that the government will take care of you later is a true delusion.
Paul, UK

My saving is really simple - a Credit Union scheme run by my employer. The money can be accessed at any time, there is no minimum or maximum time you need to save for all you must do is save a minimum of �2 per week to keep your account live. Loans are available at less than 10% per annum on any amount. To top it all last year it paid a dividend of over 5% and it's never paid below 3% and no commission is paid so all that's invested is paid back to the members.
Dave, UK

As dear old Woody Allen said, "A stockbroker's someone you pay to lose all your money".
K Taylor, UK


Better to use the money to buy things, then sell them at a real profit.

Arri London, EU / US
It's not too complicated to save. It is too difficult to save. Interest rates for my small savings are well below my real rate of inflation. Then the government taxes money that has already been taxed so that I end up with even less. Interest often isn't compounded more than once a year, so growth isn't possible. Other investments take more money than I can safely spare. However, if I want to borrow money, the interest charged is an order of magnitude more than I get on my savings. It's no wonder people don't save... it's nearly impossible to actually profit from putting small sums away. Better to use the money to buy things, then sell them at a real profit.
Arri London, EU/US

I have worked in an accounting environment all my career and I find today's savings options too vast and complicated to understand - so I pity the non- finance minded person trying to unravel them! The low savings interest rates and state of the stock market does nothing to inspire those of us rapidly approaching retirement age. Our "options" are diminishing - along with the value of our "investments"
Linda Brittain, UK

A whole new industry has evolved over the last ten years or so. It's called 'Confusion Marketing'. You've only got to look at mobile phone contracts, mortgages, savings plans and so on, to see what I mean. Complicated forms and contracts are being generated to make it more and more difficult to work out who gives a good deal and who doesn't. It's a deliberate attempt by a lot of companies to cause confusion in the hope that they can snare the not so well informed population. Even trying to work out who gives the best deal for your electric and gas takes a masters degree. I'm an electronics engineer and have a reasonable grasp of maths and physics, but I am a fish out of water when it comes to PEP's, TESSA's, ISA's, etc. They just leave me cold. They could be simple and understandable, but then, if they were, people would see they weren't as good as we are told, and would probably not bother with them.
Sam, UK


The issue of pensions is needlessly complex and puts people off.

David Ball, Belgium
My UK personal pensions are only just holding their own so I count myself lucky. I am also very lucky in that my pensions advisor is a friend. He has now retired and, now I have to pay for advice, I am finding out how well he looked after me. The issue of pensions is needlessly complex and puts people off. The Government is largely responsible for the chaos. If you want independent advice you have to pay for it or trust that the person 'giving' it is not just looking at the commission when recommending a pension product.
David Ball, Belgium

I have to say I have only a limited understanding of the savings industry. But then, as I graduated from university 3 years ago with large debts for my trouble, so far I have nothing at all spare to save!
Shell, UK

What savings? Millions of people in this country, like me are trying to make the ends meet. Let's not forget the people who not out of their own fault, do not have this luxury even to talk about savings and pensions.
Orhan Tsolak, UK

Coming from northern Serbia, I cannot understand how people in the west cannot save money. The way we do it here (with the little we have) is to put it under our mattresses (our banks are not functioning properly). This way, I was able to buy a pig and feed my family. Please stop your bickering in the west.
Jasan Prase, Yugoslavia


I save by reducing my debts

Stephen Hulse, UK
I do not have a pension. This may shock people but I save by reducing my debts (i.e. Mortgage). It is MAD to have any form of saving while you have even the cheapest debts. You are leaving control of your life in other people's hands.
Stephen Hulse, UK

Systems are only systems; it's people and their characters, morals and choices that reflect what the financial industry is today. Which of them really cares for the millions of old people unable to work for a living? Which of them campaign for Third World countries ridden with debt at the hands of western commerce? It is we westerners who charge these financiers with the expectation that they provide us with a large pot of money for us when we retire.
Peter Barraclough, UK

The lesson is clear. Don't trust anyone else with your money. Plan your long-term savings as a series of renewable shorter term ones. This way you remain in control. Long-term pension companies might go bust before it's your time to collect. It's not 100% impossible.
Tony Landen, UK


Read the business pages, buy a book on the subject

DVA, UK
It is a matter of taking the time and putting in the effort and not making excuses. Look for success and not failure. We live in a society where people feel that they should be spoon-fed. Time, effort, research, reading etc. It is important to read the business pages, buy a book on the subject, ask people about their particular industry. If my colleagues spent one hundredth of the time exploring finance as they do watching, reading and talking about football then they would have a good level of sophistication concerning finance. Prioritise your time and perhaps click on the BBC business section instead of the BBC sports section for a change!
DVA, UK

The finance houses put pressure on us and tell us we should be saving but make it as difficult to understand as possible. All so they can fleece us. I go into major sleep mode as soon as I hear the slightest financial jargon. It bores me to death. I know many, many people though who spend all their time constantly watching the stock market, phoning their brokers and studying their accounts. Those people have missed the point of existence. Life's too short for that.
B Thompson, UK

Saving on a low income is incredibly depressing. I'm breaking myself to save �100 each month - a sum that will translate into a pension allowance akin to living off benefits...
Anon, UK


Saving is a mug's game

Brian, UK
The savings industry is not too complicated - what puts me off it that the government taxes my income and income from savings, then taxes me again when I spend anything I've saved. The derisory interest rates on offer make saving simply not worth the effort. Meanwhile the same government hands out loads of money to those who have never bothered to save. Government tax policy means that saving is a mug's game. Blow the lot now and trust that tax income raised from the stupid rich (savers) will pay benefits when you need them.
Brian, UK

There will always be someone ripping someone else off. That's life. The more complicated a system, the easier it will be for this to happen. I say make the financial services far simpler so that people can feel more confident in the decision they take and only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong. It takes the heat out of things.
Dieter, UK

Nobody is going to save in the 'I want it and I want it now' society we live in. It is one of the basic contradictions of capitalism that to create demand we have to spend. When demand goes up there are fewer unemployed and everyone feels better off and we are less likely to save. If we do save, then demand goes down and unemployment goes up and we feel worse off and more vulnerable. So at a time when unemployment is relatively low, such as now, we are more likely not to save. You can't have it both ways.
Andy, UK

You have two simple choices: save your money in a piggy bank or give it away to the savings industry and its army of advisers. I realised this too late. I should have hung onto it!
John, UK

Saving is as simple as you want it to be. I think the complaints are coming only from people who do not want to save and use this as just another reason.
Vishal Rao, UK

Despite all the recent mis-selling scandals, I've never yet seen a poor financial adviser. That's enough evidence for me not to trust them! I'll make my own decisions, rightly or wrongly, and I'll live with the consequences.
Peter Connolly, England


I'm dreading the day when I'll have to think about pensions

Simon Grey, Southampton, UK
I'm 19 and I'm currently saving to help me through my university course. I put all my savings into an instant cash ISA which is quite straightforward. But my parents are bogged down with form after form and having regular meetings with a financial adviser. I'm dreading the day when I'll have to think about pensions!
Simon Grey, Southampton, UK

People have no faith because there is no guarantee of even getting your money back at all, let alone make a profit! I (stupidly) started paying as much as I could into a money purchase pension. It would have made more sense to put the cash under the mattress and risk it being stolen. Considering fund managers are so highly paid and so incapable, I suggest replacing them with monkeys who will make more money and be happy to be paid in bananas.
Rob Smith, UK

My wife and I certainly agree. I am a self-employed businessman, my wife is a senior teacher yet we both struggle to understand our position with regard to our mortgage and savings. Rather like the legal profession, deliberately complex jargon prevents the ordinary man on the street from making any kind of objective judgement about what's on offer. If someone offered a range of no fuss see-through financial products, the rest would be forced to follow.
Howard, UK

My girlfriend and I have been through the minefield of savings accounts and we ended up walking away and using our jar at home, or just leaving the money in our bank accounts!
Vaderman, London, UK


Culture is more important to saving than marketing

Ian Dunn, UK
Too complex to save? Well in the States there are some very simple saving schemes - pity the saving ratio is STILL the lowest in the western world. Culture is more important to saving than the marketing of the products.
Ian Dunn, UK

Most people are clearly unaware of how money purchase pensions work, especially the link between interest rates and annuity calculations, which means that pensions are reduced at a time when the economy is apparently in good shape. My biggest concern, however, is the amount of money that is creamed off by advisers and fund managers, who pay themselves vast sums of money to underperform the market. My advice would always be to use your ISA allowance as a tax efficient vehicle that not only allows you to save a reasonable sum of money but also gives you control over that money when you retire, rather than be forced down the annuity route.
Alan P, UK

The problem is that Gordon Brown now takes so much money off us workers there is nothing left to save!
Derrick Stansfield, UK


The only safe option is under the mattress

Simon, UK
We are continuously told by ministers that we have to save more. I try hard to do this but the pensions and endowment scandal and the lack of effective action in the latter have destroyed my faith in putting money away. The only safe option is under the mattress. My motto is spend now and wait for the government to pay back the taxes it has taken when the time comes - after all you may as well enjoy it while you have it. Why contribute to some fund manager's Porsche?
Simon, UK

In my opinion, bypassing financial advisers is a good thing - since when is someone that makes their living from commission "independent"?
Douglas, UK

See also:

09 Jul 02 | Business
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