Crucial talks aimed at averting a national firefighters' strike have ended without agreement.

The Fire Brigades Union (FBU) warned that unless resumed talks on Thursday bring a breakthrough in the row over pay, next week's strikes will go ahead.

There is a considerable amount of negotiation ... but it has been productive

Andy Gilchrist

More than 100 firefighters, who gathered outside the meeting venue in central London, urged their leaders to continue their demand for a 40% pay rise.

It is the first time the Fire Brigades Union and the employers have met to discuss the pay dispute since September.

Andy Gilchrist, the FBU's general secretary, said on Wednesday: "There is a considerable amount of negotiation, much of it very difficult, to be continued tomorrow but it has been productive."

'Keen for a deal'

The two sides had discussed pay and the FBU had stressed its four key demands, he said.

The FBU is seeking to take an experienced firefighter's pay to �30,000, but the local authority employers have only offered 4%, saying any improved deal will have to be paid for by the government.

Military "Green Goddess" fire engines are primed for action

Union sources insisted that both sides were keen to reach a deal, but while describing the talks as constructive, they argued that there was still a way to go before they resume again at 1000 on Thursday.

The first 48-hour strikes had been due to take place from Tuesday until Thursday, and from next Saturday until the following Monday.

But at the end of last week, the FBU said it was suspending two 48-hour strikes following talks with Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

However, it said other walkouts planned for November and December would still go ahead if their demands for a 40% pay rise were not met.

Outside the meeting, firefighters indicated their growing frustration and anger.

Strike dates

6-14 November 22-30 November 4-12 December 16-24 December All start and end at 0900 GMT

Peter White, a firefighter based in Hackney, east London, said: "We are here today because we are being kept in the dark about the union negotiations.

"Our union came to us and told us we were worth �30,000 and we feel they may be rolling over.

"Historically, the government has had us cheap - now we want �30,000 and no strings."

Pressure on Gilchrist

Mr White said he and his colleagues were concerned they would eventually receive a rise of 16% over three years, just 1% more than their employers have offered.

"We will vote and go on strike if that is put to us," he said. "In my view Andy Gilchrist's leadership would become untenable. If he backs down he should resign."

The strikes will start next week and continue until Christmas unless a deal is brokered.

Ted George, chairman of the UK Fire Employers organisation, said: "The dialogue today was open and constructive, but there is still a long way to go.

"We hope to have an equally constructive day tomorrow."

Any pay rise must be linked to modernisation and guided by the independent review headed by former Low Pay Unit head Sir George Bain, Mr George said.

Agreement would depend on "appropriate government funding", he added.

But the union is continuing to boycott the inquiry, which reports in December on pay and conditions in the fire service.

Mr Gilchrist has dismissed the "discredited review" as a "distraction".

Green Goddess

But employers remain keen to change working practices and shift patterns.

Local authority spokesman John Ransford said: "Our position remains the same - further progress on pay and modernisation must go hand in hand."

In the event of industrial action, the Army - backed by the Royal Navy and RAF - is on standby to provide cover with 827 Green Goddess fire engines and a reported 12,500 troops.

They will be joined by 4,000 part-time firefighters with the Retained Firefighters Union (RFU), who have condemned the FBU's action.

But tube drivers' unions say they will consider striking on the same days, as their members' safety cannot be guaranteed.