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Friday, 6 December, 2002, 18:04 GMT
Will anti-bigotry plans work?
News Online has been inundated with your views on plans by First Minister Jack McConnell to tackle sectarianism in Scotland.

Mr McConnell said it is time for Scotland's secret shame to be put in the past and he has urged MSPs to support moves to change the law.

The proposals include stiffer sentences for crimes motivated by bigotry, naming and shaming of offenders and new guidelines for the police and courts.

Concerns have been raised that the new measures will be unenforceable and that legislation will not change the hearts and minds of the bigots.

We asked: Do you believe the plans will help in the crusade to make Scotland a bigotry-free zone? What else can be done to tackle the spectre of sectarianism?

With such a massive reponse to our first Talking Point on the issue, we decided to open a second page for the discussion and many of your comments are included below. Please note that this Talking Point is now closed.

I recently emigrated from Scotland and one of many reasons driving me to this decision was what I saw as the rotten core of intolerance present in Scotland.

Intolerance not only between the main religions, but by the Lowland Scot for the Gael.

My children attend a Catholic school in Canada with other children from Bulgaria, Poland, USA, Lebanon, Germany and Canada.

My children thankfully have no concept of religious or racial intolerance. Did I make the right decision, of course I did.
Angus Macdonald, Canada

People choose to live amongst their own communities.They feel safer and can identify with each other.

This legislation will not work. Bigotry and sectarianism are common place here in N.Ireland. The children already know who the 'enemy' is from a very young age.

I think as long as bigotry exists here,it will do so in Scotland as well. Im afraid it's too little,too late.
Tony, N.Ireland

If groups of Rangers and Celtic supporters were in pitch battle with each other and a group of very obvious English lads walked past - waving their Cross of St George flags - I wonder if the Scots would stop whacking each other and turn on the English?
John Andrews England

I grew up in Glasgow and have experienced this division between the Catholics and Prosidents and have no doubt the situation needs changing, but at least someone has the courage to stand up and admit there is a problem.

Here in England I experience much more bigitory and have suffered the consequences of it - even to the point of having my house set on fire.

Sometimes I am afraid to open my mouth, but then it's allways the big brave blokes who are the worst bigots, and who get away with it every time. Who is saying there is a problem here?
Eileen, UK

Mr McConnell is on the right track, although it is a long one. Tackling the endemic bigotry of the Old Firm support should be top of the agenda.

It is terrible for true football fans to be tarred with the sectarian brush.

In football, you are completely within your rights to have an immense dislike for your arch rivals, it's part of the game.

Why should it be that the monarch should be able to marry anyone but a Catholic?

Joseph, Scotland
Newcastle/Sunderland,Liverpool/Everton, all have a healthy rivalry, but in Glasgow if you support either side of the Old Firm you are labelled a bigot.

Only when a seven-year-old can go to the game with their family and not have to listen to some moron spewing bile and hatred, will we be taking a step closer to a tolerant Scotland.

These measures should have been taken a long, long time ago.
Dene, Scotland

As a Catholic parent I think it would be an infringement of my civil rights to abolish Catholic education.

I think this could easily be contested if taken to the European courts.

That said I would be willing to sacrifice denominational schools if, and there are quite a few ifs here, the following initiatives and safeguards were taken:

Suitable time was set aside for children whose parents wished them to receive Catholic religious intruction.

The banning of all sectarian organisations and marches in Scotland.

The dis-establishment of the church from the state. It's ludicrous that in the 21st century we have a so called national religion.

The repeal of all anti-Catholic legislation. Why should it be that the monarch should be able to marry anyone but a Catholic?
Joseph, Scotland

Separating children into schools of different faiths is akin to apartheid on a smaller scale. Look how much good it did for South Africa.
Scott, UK

Like Glasgow, Liverpool experienced a great deal of sectarianism in the 19th and early part of this century between Liverpudlians of Southern Irish Catholic and Northern Irish Protestant origins.

Violence and bigotry was fuelled by great poverty, and ignorance. As a schoolkid the girls at our school played games were if you lost that meant you'd marry a Protestant (the horror!). Liverpool had the potential to become another Belfast.

Most of these comments are missing the point that - other than the Rangers/Celtic phenomenon - sectarianism is practically a dead issue in Scotland

Peter Wood, Scotland
However, this is largely a thing of the past now. Despite the fact that there are very many Catholic schools in the city, the fact is that in many parts of Liverpool Catholics form the great majority and the high amount of Catholic- only schools is just a reflection of demographics - not a reflection of bigotry or sectarianism as claimed in some of the letters on this page.

Forty five per cent of the population of Liverpool are Catholic, but we live side by side in peace with our neighbours- it is just not an issue.

I suggest that Scots of all backgrounds and religions finally join the 21st century and leave their foolish posturings behind.

Is it not possible for you to have pride in who you are without having to go out on the streets purely with the purpose to intimidate and provoke people who happen to have different beliefs to you?
Mike Halloran , Liverpool

If McConnell really wanted to end bigotry in Scotland then he should outlaw Celtic and Rangers football clubs.

Wearing a Celtic/Rangers top is an expression of sectarianism in Glasgow.

The religious hatred goes with the colours. You cannot be regarded as a "loyal" follower of either team without unmitigated hatered of the other.
IS, UK

Most of these comments are missing the point that - other than the Rangers/Celtic phenomenon - sectarianism is practically a dead issue in Scotland.

Catholics and Protestants work together, socialise together and, above all, marry one another.

I do not believe that anyone fails to get a job or a promotion by being of the "wrong" religion.

This is all very, very different from Northern Ireland. The problem does not go deeper than the Old Firm - they are the problem.
Peter Wood, Scotland

For people to blame the education system, football clubs, religious organisations on sectarianism is nonsensical.

We enjoy freedom and to set restrictions on the above is a retrograde step.

Educate people as to the facts about other religions/ denominations.

Encourage members of different backgrounds to leave sectarianism behind and put in place mechanisms and institutions which will help this happen.

Force and the banning of expressions/institutions that identify a particular background is not the way forward in a modern society.

I suspect that many of the worst offenders practice no religion and are merely driven by their own personal hatred of the religion of others

John , Scotland
People cannot force others how to think and its extremely arrogant to believe otherwise.

If one feels it impossible to live in a society where people have views which are different and seem rather extreme then educate, do not dictate.
Derek, Northern Ireland

As a Scotsman living in England, I find it truly pathetic that the Scottish Parliament/Executivehave nothing better to do with their time.

Sectarianism is slowly but surely fading away because society is losing interest in it.

Jack McConnell and the rest of his tinpot administration should concentrate on things that matter, instead of flushing more taxpayers' money down the toilet.
Steve Wilson, UK

I really can't believe that these measures are going to sweep away hundreds of years of in-bred hatred.

I think those involved feel this tribal nonsense gives them an identity in an otherwise pointless life.
John, England

Tolerance of each other is the only way forward. I suspect that many of the worst offenders practice no religion and are merely driven by their own personal hatred of the religion of others.
John , Scotland

Born in Scotland, lived there most of my 48 years. I now live in England. It's simple, all children should be educated together.

Why this is not clear to those who could do something about it is beyond me.
Barbara Clark, UK

Children don't learn bigotry at school from the schools. If they did, the school could and should be prosecuted.

The reality is that children learn bigotry from their parents and grandparents.

How do you stop that under law? The answer is of course that you can't. The law is an unsuitable tool to do this.

If you want it to change it's up to each and every one one of us to stand up and say that this kind of behaviour is wrong. No matter who says it for whatever reason there is. If someone is a bigot, call them a bigot, loudly, clearly and publicly. Don't expect politicians to do your dirty work for you. They'll just cock-it up.
Vernon, Hong Kong Ex. UK

I was educated in a Protestant school in Hamilton. We would fight with the Catholics every week like clockwork. I followed the older kids, who had followed the other kids who had..... you get the idea.

Having gone to a Catholic school in Glasgow I can confirm that I was never taught or learned any bigotry from any of my teachers

Mary Anne, Australia
Today at 27 years old I certainly do not go around fighting. Nor am I cruel to others religions or races. If the problem was school segregation then surely I - and my school chums - would be out right now spray painting a Red Hand of Ulster on a garage door?

I made the choice of not being a bigot. Of not being a racist. If you don't like someone around you dispensing hate then call them on it. If you don't take a real stand, don't expect your kids or anyone else to either.
Chris, US, ex-pat Scot

Yet more curtailing of free speech.
Dom, UK

Day one at school, that's where it starts and it snowballs from there.

Get every child into a non-denominational education system and bigotry amongst the masses will certainly decrease.
Tommy, Australia

I admire Jack McConnell for his stance on sectarianism, however I am afraid that it will not work without the big two teams backing him with more serious methods than the have at present.

I have been a victim of this form of abuse since I was a child, but I was fortunate that my parents were a lot more intelligent than the parents of the mindless bigots who attend the old firm games.

This was done at family level, and that is the only way it is going to be beaten.
M.Loftus, Scotland

People preoccupied with Catholic schools causing the problem are avoiding the real issues.

Having gone to a Catholic school in Glasgow I can confirm that I was never taught or learned any bigotry from any of my teachers.

Adults/parents who spout religious hatred are the problem and having only non-denominational won't solve the problem.

There are schools with people of different races and it doesn't seem to have stopped racism.
Mary Anne, Australia

Get rid of Catholic/Protestant schools. In the US religion is not an issue as all kids go to public schools. Also no one cares what religion you are. It is never an issue.
Eleanor , US

Is the answer to everything supposed to be legislation against it?

Many people assert that Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland, but there is no authentic evidence to support this claim

Patricia Scotland
Surely it would be much more to the point to re-educate people and point out how counter productive bigotry is?

I would have thought that the example of the total failure of the Racial Discrimination Act to foster good race relations would have been a big enough lesson to the legislators.

You can't forcibly change a bigot, but if you try and educate one, or better yet, allow the child of a bigot the opportunity to see a wider view, then you might get somewhere.
Susan, UK/USA

We should not be imposing any legislation on anybody if we can possibly avoid it.

This is supposed to be a "Free Country", not the Third Reich.

You can't just go "silencing" people just because you don't like them or what they say; in principle this would be no better than Nazism, or the Taliban regime.

The police have enough trouble dealing with "proper" crime as it is.
Mike, England

The tabloid press in general would never allow sectarianism to go away - their jobs and circulation depend too much upon it.
Andy Mac, Scotland

Many people assert that Catholic schools are the cause of bigotry in Scotland, but there is no authentic evidence to support this claim.

In fact, divisions existed even before the legislation that allows Catholics to have their own schools came into being.

It is worthy of note that these denominational schools are not exclusive, but indeed welcome pupils from other faiths,and of none.

Many Catholic schools have up to 50% placing requests from outwith the Catholic community, simply because people recognise the value of an education that promotes not only tolerance, but love of one's neighbour.

The retention of the right of Catholic parents to send their children to the school of their choice is fundamental to the solution of the bigotry problem in Scotland.
Patricia , Scotland

See also:

06 Dec 02 | Talking Point
05 Dec 02 | Scotland
05 Dec 02 | Scotland
03 Dec 02 | Scotland
16 Oct 02 | Scotland
13 Oct 02 | Scotland
07 Oct 02 | Scotland
Internet links:


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