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| Friday, 6 December, 2002, 11:43 GMT What is the best way to beat bigotry? ![]() Plans to tackle sectarianism in Scotland have been outlined by First Minister Jack McConnell. Mr McConnell said it is time for Scotland's secret shame to be put in the past and he has urged MSPs to support moves to change the law. The proposals include stiffer sentences for crimes motivated by bigotry, naming and shaming of offenders and new guidelines for the police and courts. But concerns have been raised that the new measures will be unenforceable and that legislation will not change the hearts and minds of the bigots. Do you believe the plans will help in the crusade to make Scotland a bigotry-free zone? What else can be done to tackle the spectre of sectarianism? This Talking Point is now closed. Read a selection of your views below. It is very confusing when you put tradition, religon and sectarianism all in the same report to describe the football violence which goes on. The people who identify themselves by which ever religious stance can hardly be described as religious as they probably do not follow any of the doctrine of either Protestant christianity or Roman Catholicism. Their religon is football. As Christians, we find it very unhelpful to confuse all these definitions on your reports as it is blatantly obvious that the perpertrators of hooliganism do not follow the teachings of either church or the example of Jesus Christ. It would be more honest to describe the behaviour as tribal hiding behind traditional labels drawn on some long forgotten lines of historical identifcation. These guys need the gospel of Jesus, they are not the product of it. Perhaps the Scottish Parliament would also do well to remember these distinctions. Seeing as football is one (though not the sole) public face of bigotry, why do the BBC and ITV persist in blanket-coverage of this game? It's not just at weekends, but all week. Even the evening news in Scotland bows down to football.
Douglas, UK Reading the comments so far it is obvious that there is bigotry coming through in them already or why is Catholic schools such an issue,when in the rest of the world it causes no problem? Only in Ireland and Scotland does it seem to be a problem. It says more about Scottish and Irish people than it does about Catholic schools. Are these people showing classic bigotry in their unnatural hatred for Catholic schools? Legislation can at best be symbolic. As a Christian I think that the bigots on both sides cannot possibly have a living active faith in Christ. In today's essentially secular society, "Protestants" and "Catholics" have much more in common with each other than with the majority who have no faith to speak of. It's really tribalism of the worst kind rather than a considered opinion. I'm also a keen football fan who supports a Lanarkshire team. It's ridiculous that I had to endure taunting when at school because I refused to support Rangers. Since the differences between both tribes are no longer theological (how many of these people actually read the Bible?) perhaps separate schooling does tend to perpetuate the antagonism. Then again, the Old Firm do very little to stamp out sectarianism. It could well be argued that their inproportionate income generation requires it. Frankly I don't think Jack McConnell has much idea. I think that Scottish football should have nothing to do with Union Flags or Irish ones. Modern, confident Scots should require neither. As a practising Christian, I very much welcome the efforts made by Mr McConnell and Mr Gorrie to rid our society of this blight. How Christian denominations can hate in the name of the religion that they seek to serve, is an affront to all of those decent people who live in harmony day in and day out.
Parents have the principal responsibility to teach their children about faith, so when the parents are not there, it is up to the teachers to replace them. A practical consideration to think about. I went to a Roman Catholic primary and secondary school and was taught nothing but to love and respect everyone, regardless of their tradition or even none. Don't blame the schools, blame adults or are we not big enough to accept responsibility for our own actions? Having served over 30 years in the police in the west of Scotland, I have experienced the bigotry first hand and deplore the BBCs promulgation of the problems when the Ray Stubbs of this world repeatedly urge armchair fans to even put on their shinpads for the spectacle. All comments like these do is to inflame the situation and encourage the mindless morons who indulge in the anti-social behaviour for which they are given air time. As it's generally agreed that much of the visible sectarianism in scotland revolves around the Old Firm, their matches, and their annual two-horse battle for the top of the league table, perhaps it would be a positive move for the Scottish Executive to more publicly endorse their integration into the Premiership south of the border. If this were to happen, not only would Scottish football no longer be dominated by the high profile clashes of 'Protestant' and 'Catholic', but regular fixtures with a diversity of English teams would serve to diminish the importance of which team belonged to which religion. This certainly shatters the old myths about Scotland being more tolerant than England, and I wonder are there any plans to stop the deep Anglophobic racism in Scotland, or is that just "Scottish Passion", and not bigotry? Blaming it all on catholic schools is a huge over-simplification. Bigotry is deep seated in Scots culture. England has Catholic schools yet absolutely no religious bigotry. This suggests the roots of the problem in Scotland are much deeper and have grown from our culture and history. Ask why the Catholic community felt the need for separate education in the first place. How much bigotry did this minority community face from the majority community? You don't have to search very far back. Mixed schools would certainly help but they are not the only factor. Roman Catholic schools exist as a result of an act of parliament. They were designed to offer education to Catholics at a time when discrimation against Catholic school children (of immigrant Irish families) was common place.
It should be possible to satisfy any parential preference to religious teaching as part the normal school period time.
If it's not Rangers/Celtic then it's Scotland/England. This has little to do with schooling and more to do with plain, old-fashioned bigotry, instilled in kids by ignorant parents from an early age so they can carry on in perpetuity. I was born and raised in England and we had separate Catholic schools without this problem. My wife is a Scot (east coast) and doesn't know why the problem exists, saying it's a predominantly Glaswegian attitude problem. This is joke coming from a member of the Scottish Parliament which this year has set the most disgraceful example of bigotry I have ever witnessed in Britain by banning foxhunting. I thought we had the prize bigots at Westminster but the Scots have managed to equalise. Get your politicians sorted out first. This is a pointless piece of would-be legislation. The police have already said it will make convictions harder to secure and I doubt anyone seriously believes that beating someone up because they are of a different religion is any worse than beating someone up for some other moronic reason. So long as you are an innocent victim you have a right to expect justice and this bill will make that less likely.
Most Celtic fans who sing these outrageous songs aren't bright enough to understand what they are doing wrong and to pretend otherwise should fool no-one. As for the points on banning Catholic schools or Orange marches, are we no longer to respect other peoples rights and traditions? Why not just go all the way and ban freedom of speech? The Scottish Parliament is in danger of becoming an even bigger joke than it is already. I don't think that having specific schools for different religions is an issue. I believe that it is the actions of our seniors i.e. our fathers and grand-fathers, that have brainwashed each wave of new generation and polluted their influential mind. It's human nature to vent anger and tension but unfortunately we all do it in the wrong way. It's in every Scots' nature to be self destructive in every aspect of life. Therefore, we need to educate our youth and seniors that it is okay to have Protestant lodges and Catholic schools but do not have to compete for first place. For example, if bigotry did not exist then we would most likely isolate another inequality amongst the masses and create divisions. The increasing levels of mindless bigotry is of course largely thanks to the institutionalised "apartheid" instigated by separating friends at school age solely because of their parents' religion. It is also, sadly, a measure of the Scots mentality, we seek reasons to separate ourselves from one another, be it religion, football, clans, cities, towns and villages etc. It is time we grew up as a nation and a people and try to understand how the rest of the world must view our petty little squabbles. As well as taking a serious look at the separate schooling issue, I think the authorities should also look at certain pubs and clubs that openly promote events that glorify terrorist organisations. One of the first steps that must be taken is to highlight the fact that bigotry in Scotland does not simply apply to the Catholic and Protestant religions, both of which, it has to be remembered, are forms of Christianity.
Catholic schools in this country are not only for Catholic children. They operate under local authority regulations and are subject to the same tests, standards and curriculum as the (so-called) non-denominational schools. I say so-called, because having attended such a school, my experience (and the experiences of many others I have met) is that in terms of religious practice these schools are akin to the Church of Scotland, demonstrated most often and most clearly in the form of the Lord's Prayer that is used in celebrations. Possibly the direction that should be taken is that of separation of religion from education, as the current situation serves only to highlight the differences between the various religions that are celebrated in contemporary Scotland. Turning to football, there is one thing that absolutely must not be ignored and that is that sectarianism, bigotry and religious prejudice are not limited to sections of the Old Firm support but also extend into other teams within Scotland. It's important to state that denominational schools in themselves do not promote bigotry, in fact, to an extent, their curriculums actively try to prevent it. However, the mere act of separating children of different religions at a young age creates a "them and us" attitude, which is fuel to the fire that is bigotry. It is an indictment on Scottish society that it cannot handle denominational schooling in the way that countries like Australia, Canada and the US can.
This is profoundly illiberal liberalism and bad lawmaking. The moment the government starts trying to legislate against the hearts and minds of the people, no matter how horrible the consequences of sectarianism can be, is a sad day for democracy and freedom of speech. To make this argument is not to justify sectarian views but to warn that the state has no right to censor or punish people for what they think or say While Catholic schooling is divisive, the real public displays of bigotry are found in Orange walks. These marches are inflammatory and I for one don't want their outdated ideology forced down my throat every time they march past my home. Keep all religious teaching out of schools. This, after some time, should help prevent making children feel different from the pals they played with when they were wee. Educate children for life and not superstition. Strange that the working group's proposals - allowing sentence aggravation of existing offences whilst rejecting calls for an offence of incitement to religious hatred - would leave Scottish law in exactly the same position that English law has been in for nearly a year. There is a real case for outlawing sectarian hate speech in the central belt - I hope that the Scottish Parliament will ultimately take a distinctive, Scottish approach to this problem. While I can appreciate the response from some commentators regarding separate schools, I think that Orange walks and similar activities on the other side of the divide, have far more to do with sectarianism in the West of Scotland than any school attended.
Sectarianism is learned in the home from parents and if anything the schools systems help contradict pupils inherited religious bigotry. If sects of the community wish to educate their children with unsubstantiated myths then fine. However, they should have to pay for this privilege themselves and not rely on the provision of tax-payer generated state funding. Separate schools only divide the community and lead to suspicion and intolerance. I would just like to echo what many have already said on the site, merely that the publicly funded schools should not be segregated. This just creates unnecessary divisions. f people want private, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Sikh whatever schools then that's up to them, but public schools should not be where religion is taught, that's what parents and the church are for. Why don't the Old Firm throw out the bigots from their grounds? Why did Rangers bring out an orange strip? They want to cash in on the bigotry as without it they would not get crowds of 60,000. I think the big issue here would be to address the banning of all sectarian marches, then you might actually convince people you are trying to get rid of sectarianism. Jack McConnell should be taking steps to address this side of things as the football fans are only the tip of the iceberg. If he does nothing against the marches then he is not serious in what he's trying to do and is only trying to look as if he is. You can't try to put all the onus on the football clubs. They can help, but how will this actually stop bigotry except on match days? So Jack if you really are trying to stop this, do something about the marches! Surely, this legislation is better than doing nothing at all! Okay, so it's difficult to change people's ingrained attitudes, but at least it will send out the message that the establishment will not tolerate bigotry and sectarianism.
Dave, Scotland Catholic schools are an easy target when it comes to debates on sectarianism. People forget that Catholic schools work in England, Canada and many other countries without any problem. Before the formation of Catholic schools the bigotry problem in the west of Scotland was far greater than it is today. Saying disband Catholic schools is a lazy and ultimately ineffective solution to the problem. It's time for more tolerance of other people's beliefs. Only then can bigotry and sectarianism be stamped out. As an English person who moved to Scotland 10 years ago, I was dumbfounded at the amount of sectarianism that existed here. Naively I thought I was moving to another part of the UK but obviously not. My son, at five years old, was teased relentlessly in his Protestant primary school because he is called Tim, we had no idea that this was another name for a Catholic! It stuns me how this is encouraged by the parents simply in the act of supporting separated schools. Schools are to educate children, not to deal with their religious beliefs, that's what the churches are for. Congratulations to the Scottish Government on grasping the thistle on this one. However, it is only when religious segregation is ended at Scottish schools that this problem will truly be dealt with. I was 18 before I met a Catholic socially and that means I was separated from a third of the Scots population by the schooling policy up here. It would not be tolerated on grounds of race nor nationality so how dare we tolerate it on grounds of religion? Only true religion stops bigotry as it is founded on charity. To stop single religion schools is to stifle the true origin of peace. Peace is a gift from the true God and is not possible in a humanist state.
Graham, Scotland Sorry Mr McConnell, but you are guilty of silly and empty posturing. You cannot claim to be anti-bigotry and yet support sectarian schools. State sponsored segregation of children on the grounds of religion is an abomination which should not be tolerated in any modern society. Education is the key to breaking down sectarian barriers. It must be an integrated education where kids of all beliefs (or none) can grow up together and see that we are all essentially the same. The problems of sectarianism in Scotland and Northern Ireland are fed by ignorance and blind hatred. Bigotry is the one thing that makes me ashamed to be Scottish. There should be zero tolerance of all forms of religious bigotry and racial intolerance. Too many Scots define themselves by being anti-English and anti-Catholic. It is about time Scotland stopped living in the past and found a new way of defining its place in the world and aspirations for the future. Folly with a whiff of totalitarianism. Killing people is wrong, injuring people is wrong, there are adequate laws to deal with this. What these proposals suggest is that the beliefs of the person killing or injuring makes his crime somehow worse. Is the executive saying a thug who only targets a group is worse than a thug who targets everyone "fairly". That subtlety may be lost on victims. People should be locked up for their actions not there beliefs no matter how unpleasant. Denominational schools are the surest protection against sectarianism. They have presided over 100 years of decrease of sectarianism in Scotland. They represent tolerance, diversity, culture, history and faith. Denominational schools exist in many countries around the world and can be seen not to be a cause of sectarianism. The divide between Catholic and Protestant in Scotland dates back to the Reformation and the Calvinist influences (right or wrong) in Scottish politics. Its about time modern Scotland and its new parliament led the way in the UK and separated church and state once and for all. You have to support freedom of expression (flags at Old Firm games being one example) but you also have to implement zero intolerance when that expression turns into any form of harassment or physical abuse. And I agree with a number of other contributors the starting place has to be in the schools. This is a responsible move from the first minister and I'm sure he has the full support of all sane minded people. Are atheists who see religion as a corruption going to be prosecuted? If so we will be back in the Dark Ages and all because of religious intolerance on the part of religious bigots on the Catholic and Protestant sides of the equation. Has no-one nowadays any intelligence to see what is the cause of the problems?
So long as you are an innocent victim you have a right to expect justice and this bill will make that less likely. I happen to be a Protestant, unionist and a Celtic fan. I learnt long ago that people who engage in sectarian behaviour are more ignorant than they are anti someone else's religion. Most Celtic fans who sing these outrageous songs aren't bright enough to understand what they are doing wrong and to pretend otherwise should fool no-one. As for the points on banning Catholic schools or Orange marches, are we no longer to respect other people's rights and traditions? Why not just go all the way and ban freedom of speech? The Scottish Parliament is in danger of becoming an even bigger joke than it is already. I cannot understand why, as soon as the question of religious intolerance and indifference arises, that Catholic schools are diagnosed as the nation's ill. Surely these schools educate our young people with respect to ethical and religious beliefs in much the same way that non-denominational schools used to. Why then are many parents of non-Catholic schools sending their children to be educated in Catholic schools? Such educational institutions exist in many countries throughout the world. They exist across the US so I presume that Catholic schools are responsible for racism too? Nonsense. The problem in Scotland is that people of all denominations fail to respect the beliefs of others. As soon as we begin to educate our children of all denominations and beliefs that tolerance and respect of others are essential then surely only then will we begin to eradicate the problem of bigotry. Couldn't agree more about stopping the Orange Walks and pro-IRA walks - they stand for nothing. Also, stop the segregating at school and see what happens with the generation coming up now. Can someone please give me a reason why we have Catholic-only schools? I honestly don't know why. As long as kids are segregated into different types of religious schools we will have a problem. The sooner church leaders and politicians realise this the better. They should dig their heads out of the sand, face the facts and stop pointing the finger at the Old Firm teams, the problem goes a lot deeper than that excuse. | See also: 05 Dec 02 | Scotland 05 Dec 02 | Scotland 03 Dec 02 | Scotland 16 Oct 02 | Scotland 13 Oct 02 | Scotland 07 Oct 02 | Scotland Internet links: The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites Top Talking Point stories now: Links to more Talking Point stories are at the foot of the page. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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