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MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter: Vincent Duggleby

Guests: John Whiting, Jane Moore

TRANSMISSION 10th SEPT 2001 1500 - 1530 RADIO 4

ANNOUNCER : It's two minutes past three and time for MONEY BOX LIVE with Vincent Duggleby:

DUGGLEBY: Good afternoon. This MONEY BOX LIVE is about filling in your tax return. You've probably stuffed it into a draw when it arrived last April with the best of intentions of course but now the first deadline is coming up for those who want to be sure that the Inland Revenue will do the calculations and work out the tax bill - doesn't guarantee they'll get it right, but at least you'll avoid the risk of unnecessary penalties and interest.

The number to ring is 08700 100 444 and we can talk about all aspects of tax including pension contributions, income from property, business expenses, self employment including the impact of IR35, capital gains and even inheritance tax. Remember, you could be liable if you've sold windfall shares or loan notes issued in a building society or insurance company flotation or takeover which you might not think was taxable. The key to completing your self assessment return is having the right information to hand from PAYE slips, bank statements, dividend counterfoils and so on. I find it helpful to have last year's return to hand and if there is an apparent inconsistency then put a note under the additional information.

The Chartered Institute of Taxation has highlighted the spiralling complexity of the tax system in a recent survey they found that 4 out of 5 MPs didn't do their own self assessment returns for the main reason they're too complicated. Maybe they should speak to Money Box Live and hear from the President of the Institute John Whiting from Price Waterhouse Coopers who's one of my guests this afternoon. He's joined by Jane Moore, advice manager with the charity Tax Aid. The number to call 08700 100 444. John, in London you're first:

JOHN: Hello

DUGGLEBY: Hello

JOHN: My name is John Churney. I own a house jointly with my wife and we understand it's worth well more than �500,000. We've got two daughters. The house is in joint names - my wife and myself and I wanted to avoid paying unnecessary tax. Could you give me any ideas?

DUGGLEBY: Well the first thing is you're - you're living with your wife in this house?

JOHN: In this house yeah

DUGGLEBY: Right, so John it's a owner occupied house - no problem at the moment?

JOHN: No

WHITING: No, and no problem on capital gains in that sense if of course they were to sell it - it's their house. And indeed if

JOHN: What you mean if we were sell it now we wouldn't have to pay any capital gains on it?

WHITING: Correct it is your own house. Everybody - every couple or every single person is allowed one house, one property capital gains tax free, so you can forget about capital gains tax in that sense.

DUGGLEBY: And that would be beneficial if for example you decided to trade down if I might use that word - you could say buy a house for �300,000 John and then you'd have �200,000 which you could give away?

WHITING: Which you could give away as cash which you could use for a well earned round the world cruise or anything else. I mean it is of course possible that one thing you're beginning to think about is inheritance tax.

JOHN: That's right

WHITING: Because of course the amount you're talking about would get you into the inheritance tax bracket which starts at �242,000 and clearly as many people find Vincent you know the house is the big problem when it comes to inheritance tax because you need to live in it - unless you are talking about trading down - you're left with the prospect of leaving this potentially to your wife - that's fine, no inheritance tax. If she then dies passes it to the children it immediately kicks in. Now there are schemes around where for example you own it under a particular joint tenancy arrangement. You severe the joint tenancy, you each give your half to the children. There are prospects like that, but it is quite a complex arrangement.

DUGGLEBY: Yeah if you want to go down that route John you have to go to a solicitor and an accountant and they have to sit down and they won't be cheap. I mean they will do a scheme but Jane my experience of some of these schemes is that they're very problematical. They may look okay now but not so good down the line especially if things go wrong you know?

MOORE: I think that's right particularly because it's important for people to understand what it is they're getting into and sometimes the schemes are so complex that people aren't really on top of what it is and fall into a trap over that.

DUGGLEBY: I mean in the end I would say John is surely you shouldn't really do anything while both partners are living because clearly they're enjoying living in the house and until one of them dies then there is an issue.

WHITING: Yes I mean I think a lot of it is let's not forget live and the fact that the main thing is to enjoy live and probably I'm sure you don't want to leave more to the tax man than you necessarily have to - but let's not completely contort lifestyle and of course what you can't do for example is say I'm giving it to the children and but I will continue to live in it - unless you're going to start paying full rentals for it that's not effective for inheritance tax.

DUGGLEBY: So the best advice is probably wait until - you know wait until one of you dies and then let the problem be picked up by the next one who may well then want to move to a smaller house at which stage you're then into the business of inheritance tax planning which is gifts, living 7 years and so on and so forth, but really that's quite a long way down the line, but I think the message is now don't worry John. No capital gains tax problem at the moment - okay. And we'll take Judith now in Coventry:

JUDITH Hello

DUGGLEBY: Your call

JUDITH: Hello, my name's Judith and I've got a query about how much tax I owe in this - whether I need to be applying for this current tax self assessment. I've got a small pension and I do some work for a couple of universities that I get paid on at source. However I've done a bit of contract work recently and that wasn't taxed - the earnings to that weren't taxed. That started in April of this year and is not likely to go on much past October.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, so I take it from that you're - the first bit of employment you referred to was tax - had tax deducted from it?

JUDITH: Yes

DUGGLEBY: You don't fill in a return at the moment?

JUDITH: No

DUGGLEBY: but your pension and earnings which are PAYE - and you've now got this additional source of income but only from April. Okay, Jane?

MOORE: Okay - could I if you don't mind Judith ask how old you are? - are you over 60?

JUDITH: No I'm 55

MOORE: You're 55. Okay. Even though you're doing just a bit of freelance work the first thing I'd say is that it does really represent a business for tax purposes. And you will need to tell the Inland Revenue that you've started that because new rules came in that tell you you have to register if you start a new business or you can risk a penalty.

JUDITH: Right, I did write to where my pension - which is my main income in tax and tell them

DUGGLEBY: No no - it's got nothing to do with that at all. Forget that - it's nothing to do with the pension payer at all

WHITING: No

MOORE If she has told her tax office though I don't think she'll be liable for penalty

DUGGLEBY: Did you tell your tax office or the pension provider?

JUDITH: No the tax office I'm sorry

DUGGLEBY: Okay you told the tax office - yeah right. You've notified them

MOORE: Well if you've notified them you probably don't need to do anything else for the moment because the money is of course in this current tax year which ends on the 5th April next year. And you actually have for income tax - you have up until 6th October 2002 to tell the tax office. So you've done that bit already - you're well ahead. They should send you a tax return after the 5th April next year which you will need to fill in and the best thing that you can do for the moment is just hang on to all the records from the freelance work you've done, not just the income, but also the expenses - anything that you've earned - you've paid travel whatever to do that work because of course you can claim that.

DUGGLEBY: The tedious thing John though is once you've established yourself in the system as it were - Judith will get this blooming great form, most of which of course is not relevant. The only bit's going to be relevant is this one small section on self employment?

WHITING: Well yes although of course she is going to have to put on it her pension, her other bit of employment, this bit of self employment

DUGGLEBY: How much tax she's got to pay

WHITING: It's all got to go down. So I'm afraid she is into the full record keeping - it is getting this extra self employment as you said - you know as Jane said she has started a little business. She does need to tell the Revenue and of course I mean she's done it, but she needs to notify them for the purposes of national insurance as well because they need to know that. And there's been quite a campaign to get people to tell the Revenue when they start up a little business for national insurance purposes because she may well be liable to a few pounds worth of that as well.

DUGGLEBY: That's the reason we asked you if you're over 60 because if you're over 60 - cos if you're over 60 it wouldn't matter, you don't have to pay.

JUDITH: I had an assessment with regard - because I've been employed since leaving school and I'm you know some of these the PAYEs that I'm getting they're taking income tax and national insurance from that anyway.

DUGGLEBY: Indeed they are. They would do that but the difficulty with self assessment form is that it has to sort of start from scratch. It has to look at all your income even if it's had tax deducted.

WHITING: The national insurance you can end up paying two lots indeed two types but there should be relief for one against the other. It does take some sorting out.

MOORE: Well in actual fact if it's only �3,000 Judith shouldn't have to pay national insurance on her self employed income, but she does need to tell the Revenue and get that sorted out rather than just assume that there's nothing to pay.

DUGGLEBY: And one final point John - when you're starting a business it looks as though Judith started in April so in actual fact she's got quite a neat arrangement where she can be taxed on the tax year?

WHITING: Well exactly which is much easier in her circumstances so she declares a year ending in March although if it's just a temporary thing the issue doesn't arise.

DUGGLEBY: So remember when you actually put - fill that form in your year end should be the 31st March and your earnings up to that date Judith - you work on the tax year

JUDITH: So I save as much as I can in the way of receipts and everything else for now?

DUGGLEBY: Yeah expense receipts - any outlays you've paid for the business you know.

WHITING: Treat yourself to a little concertina file to keep everything in - claim the cost of that as well.

DUGGLEBY: Yeah I mean you can go and buy yourself a computer if you - you know if that's what you want because they're fully tax deductable aren't they - I think?

MOORE: Yes 100% yes

DUGGLEBY: Right, move on to Elizabeth now in Burton on Trent.

ELIZABETH: Hello

DUGGLEBY: Hello

ELIZABETH: We are about to rent a house that has until recently been looking - been housing elderly relatives and I understand that we will then no longer just be able to pay as you earn and will have to fill in a tax return

DUGGLEBY Sorry who's renting what - I'm not quite clear?

ELIZABETH: My husband and I

DUGGLEBY: You own this house?

ELIZABETH: Yes

DUGGLEBY: And you've been renting it to elderly relatives?

ELIZABETH: No no - they've been living it in rent free until now but we are about to, having done it up we are about to rent it out.

DUGGLEBY: Right so you're entering the property renting out business. Okay, John some guidance from square one?

WHITING: Well yes your basic supposition Elizabeth is correct. You will be into filling in tax returns because of course you are going to start getting rental income for the sake or arguments let's say �1000 a month. The Inland Revenue can't deduct any tax from that so what you're going to have to do is in effect treat it like a business - keep the record of that �1000 a month or whatever it is, keep a record of the expenditure and at the end of your year you're going to have to fill in a tax return and do a little profit and loss account. The income �12,000 a year or whatever it comes to less all the costs of running it �5,000... well yes let's dream shall we and there's a profit on which you will have to pay tax.

DUGGLEBY: Are you planning to furnish it?

ELIZABETH: No it's going to be unfurnished

DUGGLEBY: Right because that then doesn't enter into the business of wear and tear then?

WHITING: Probably not

ELIZABETH: Except for carpets

DUGGLEBY: Oh carpets yeah - that would be a small amount - Jane?

MOORE: It's - you might be able to get the cost of replacing them but you wouldn't get a wear and tear allowance like you would for a furnished property.

DUGGLEBY: One small point. You said you'd done the property up?

ELIZABETH: Yes we've spent a lot on it

DUGGLEBY: That's the tricky bit - when you do a property up before you rent it John you don't get the allowance for doing it up?

WHITING: Well I think what we're talking about there probably doing up - I mean it may well in a sense rank as capital expenditure if it has really been improved

DUGGLEBY: But you can't off set it against rental income?

WHITING: No I mean what we're off setting is the running costs and the repairs and I know what you mean if Elizabeth had started to let it out and then had to redecorate let's say.

ELIZABETH: It couldn't have been let out in that condition

DUGGLEBY: This is for the benefit of other people. I mean if we for example say - am I correct in saying that if you let it out it's got a rotten bathroom but you let it out for a year and then you say to the tenants in there right I'm now going to put a new bathroom in that's allowable but if you put it in before they moved in it isn't - is that right?

WHITING: Yeah

MOORE: The answer is some is some isn't. If you're actually improving the bathroom the improvement expenditure is capital - to the extent it's just repairs replacement I'm afraid it's revenue, so just shows how easy it is to

WHITING: It's a grey area

MOORE: It is a grey area

WHITING: Don't let us put you off Elizabeth - it's worthwhile but for heavens sake you really are into the record keeping, you are into the as we said to the previous caller into letting the Revenue know that you're starting this by 6th October after the year end

DUGGLEBY: And you have presumably got your own - your own home have you?

ELIZABETH: Yes

DUGGLEBY: So this is an investment property and I'm afraid again you've got the capital gains tax clock ticking but I don't think we'll get into that because it's going to get very much more complicated.

WHITING: And that's a long way down the line

ELIZABETH: I noticed you mentioning about the golden age of 60 - I will be - my husband is already 60 and I will be 60 at the end of this year - does that make any difference?

MOORE: Well that was for national insurance for the last caller so I don't think that's going to make too much

ELIZABETH: Not relevant?

MOORE: I just wanted to mention one point quickly if I may which is that if it's jointly owned by you and your husband the income will be taxed 50/50 between the pair of you and if one of you maybe is a higher rate tax payer and the other not I don't know - it makes sense to think about that and see whether the person with the smaller amount of income or perhaps no income should take all the rental profit.

DUGGLEBY: And in a sense we did raise this question of - of tax - it is just conceivable that some people might be providing services John for which they could then be paid?

WHITING: Yes I mean we are going from just letting into running something far more tantamount to a hotel or whatever

DUGGLEBY: Exactly so that in that instance you would be having some - those would be classified as earnings?

WHITING: Indeed yeah

DUGGLEBY: Right, and now we have Maureen in Stockbridge:

MAUREEN: Right, we let a largish property and we want to sell it to reinvest in smaller properties because the demand for smaller properties is greater. Can we roll over the capital gains tax in anyway?

DUGGLEBY: Again this is not your main residence is it?

MAUREEN: No

DUGGLEBY: No - you're just having property - letting it out and it's as we've described to the last person you're receiving rental income and so on?

MAUREEN: That's right yes

DUGGLEBY: Right, capital gains John - any avoidance?

WHITING: Well I'm afraid this is - the short answer is no. I mean... and we'll come to it - but the basic answer is if you have sold a property it's not like selling your own house where you're outside the capital gains net, this does generate a taxable capital gain and I'm afraid if you then simply go and buy another one the tax man says well thank you very much and probably charges you stamp duty as well. The one exception to this is if we are into furnished holiday lettings. Now I don't know if that's what you have is it Maureen?

MAUREEN: Sadly not

WHITING: No okay. No chance - because there it is possible to roll on the gain that you've made into the new property.

DUGGLEBY: So reading that story last week Jane about the people who appeared to be trading in these amazing beach huts - you know 50 or 60,000 - I mean obviously I suppose you could conceivably have a holiday letting in a beach hut - if you're doing that I suppose you could actually avoid capital gains tax if you bought a more expensive beach hut.

MOORE: I have to say I hadn't considered that particular planning before - but I guess you're right.

WHITING: But you do of course even then have to reinvest (talking over ) I mean I know it doesn't apply to Maureen but it's worth just mentioning if for the sake of argument she was selling property for �100,000 buying one at �80,000 - the tax man regards that �20,000 as don't reinvest taxable profit - capital gain

DUGGLEBY Yeah yeah - so no luck there Maureen. The only way you can - the only way which you can avoid paying tax on an investment property in those sorts of circumstances again we won't go into too many details is if at some stage it becomes your main residence - then that is possible to ameliorate a bit of it isn't it John?

WHITING: Possibly to ameliorate a bit of it or of course I mean frankly we're into you know sort of general capital gains mitigation and that depends on other sorts of reinvestment

DUGGLEBY: But the good news again Maureen - have you got a partner or a husband or anything?

MAUREEN: Yes I have

DUGGLEBY: Yes. Well in that case remember that even if you do sell it you've got quite a decent slug of relief - �7200 - I mean you've got �15,000 between the two or you or a little bit under which does - for two people

MOORE: �7,500

DUGGLEBY: Yes but for two people - for the husband and wife it's 15 - so joint ownership you can alleviate �15,000 - but if you make a property gain of more than that the taxman will take a bite and Miles, what can we do for you in Cirencester?

MILES: Hello. I'm ringing on behalf of my parents actually who had a business that they sold some time ago in about l987 and rolled the capital gain over into a bed and breakfast that they live in so they're left not owning their - their own home with their business owning the - essentially owning their home and doing bed and breakfast there. They now want to sell up and are incurring a very large corporate - corporation tax liability - because the value of the property has gone up tremendously over the last 15 years.

DUGGLEBY: So John was just saying is it - is it held by a company?

MILES: Yes the property's owned by a company.

DUGGLEBY: John?

WHITING: Yes I mean I suspect the short answer this is - there will be a tax bill here somewhere. Can I just check Miles - your parents how old are they?

MILES: They're 61

DUGGLEBY: They're retiring - is this retirement relief?

WHITING: Well there will be - there's some potential for retirement relief here which is actually you can go when you're over 50 but there will be some possibility of selling the business or of course selling the company, a trading company of which they are main shareholders which they are, so there are some possibilities for some limited capital relief there. But we've just to be careful as to what's going on.

DUGGLEBY: What about the bit that isn't being used as a business?

WHITING: Yes it's to what's going on. The - is the company about to sell the property from what you said Miles?

MILES: Their main interest is basically to get the money out and to - and essentially to retire.

WHITING: It maybe better to contemplate selling the company and retiring that way simply because that gives them a certain amount of retirement relief. That's assuming that what we've got is a trading business which I think is probably what we have.

DUGGLEBY: That would of course mean that they'd have to leave their home which would be part and parcel of the deal - you'd have to sell the business and quit the home?

WHITING: Yes, if the company owns the

DUGGLEBY: I think it would get immensely complicated if you were trying to stay in the home and then sell the business.

MILES: No they're envisaging moving out and - and selling the property at the moment.

DUGGLEBY: It looks Jane - the route to this is the company - this is the company route?

MOORE: I think so, because I don't think you'd get full retirement relief anyway would you because some of the assets would be part business, part non business which restricts the relief you get

WHITING: There would be a little apportionment there.

MOORE: I almost wonder why it was set up quite like this in the first place? - it might be worth asking their accountant if they have one, what they had in mind.

MILES: I think they wondered the same

DUGGLEBY: I think you'll have to - you'll have to- we can't go into this anymore detail but it sounds to me as though you have to get rid of the business. They'll have to then apportion whatever personal use they've had out of it which will be deducted and then you'll end up with a bill. But quite how much it'll be relative to

WHITING: Retirement relief is - will help and unfortunately that is a relief that is being phased out and it's one to sort of - it'll be gone in a couple of years time.

DUGGLEBY: Alright Miles, thanks for the call. Roy in Maidenhead what can we do for you?

ROY: Hello - a few years ago I bought into a company - a company called Eagle Trust which went into liquidation. Spent about �700 on shares and the actual value when they folded and they made a pay out of virtually a penny a share which was just under �40. This was in 96. The point is I don't have full records going back all the way - I've got the last dividend certificate or like the final payment. Can I claim - is there anyway that I can get the records and claim this from the capital gain which is likely to accrue this tax year?

DUGGLEBY: Yeah there is - there is a list isn't there Jane which shows negligible value shares?

MOORE: Yes the Revenue do publish a list of shares that have become of negligible value, but if they've actually folded and paid out one penny a share that documentation would prove that they'd become worthless. As to how much - it's not actually a capital gain of course Roy

DUGGLEBY: It's a capital loss

MOORE: Capital loss that you have there. You can claim it and the thing to do is try and claim it now because you'll have six years after the end of the tax year when it happened to do that. You say you spent �700?

ROY: I think it was about �700 initially yes

DUGGLEBY: Well you - you'll need to show the acquisition cost of the shares and when you acquired them.

ROY: Well this is the problem - it's finding that original record.

DUGGLEBY: You mean you only know that you - that's roughly what you spent?

ROY: I remember paying it cos I did it when the building society set up a share dealing service and it's the only one I ever made through that source.

DUGGLEBY: Alright well we've established - we've established the fact that you've got the loss. There's no doubt about that. You've got the date when the disposal took place which was obviously the date when the liquidator paid the money so that's the final disposal. The Revenue will accept that because clearly it's fact. But the difficulty John is the bit at the beginning. I mean if you just put down on the return �700 - l992 and with a note saying I think that's what I paid. It's there or thereabouts?

WHITING: It is very difficult - I mean it's easy to be you know wise up to the event and say well of course you know everybody should keep copies of their purchase notes

DUGGLEBY: Back to l982?

WHITING: Well unfortunately if you've still got the asset I mean that's the reason for keeping it. But let's live in the real world - people just don't.

DUGGLEBY: Well we move house - things get lost?

WHITING: Those things disappear. The best bet is clearly I mean if this was a quoted company there are records going back - if Roy knows that he bought it in l982 or whatever it was then he would be able to see what roughly the price was in l982 and therefore just - �700 seems like a reasonable estimate. Be honest on the form and say this is an estimate. I can - you know I know I bought it in l982.

DUGGLEBY: Say when you bought it and the price you believed you paid for it and then more or less just hope that they will accept it

WHITING: We are in self assessment and one hopes that you know you've got a little bit of evidence of the �40 that you did get as Jane has said that at least gives us some - some proof

DUGGLEBY: I mean technically the registrar should hold the date. I mean whether they've still the records or not - I mean technically registrars do have a record of when the shares were registered in your name and then I suppose you can track it down to the day and look in a paper and find out what the price was.

WHITING: There's the bigger problem here that I mean Roy's amount is relatively modest but I'm sure the capital loss would be useful but of course the Revenue do not traditionally agree losses so it's only until you get this when presumably Roy wants to set the loss against a gain he's made.

DUGGLEBY: Try it Roy. Put down the facts. Say you don't know the precise date. I mean just simply say it was in - you know say what month or year it was and then put down the amount you believe and then claim the loss.

ROY: This has been about the only year that I think it would - I would have actually had a capital gain through the Thames Water business and the rest of the

DUGGLEBY: You have to get the special -you have to get the additional pages in order to do it. And most people of course don't have to bother because they make gains of less than �7200 which means they don't have to fill in the form, but if you want to claim the loss of however small an amount unfortunately you do have to fill in the form. So get it, fill it in as best you can and hope for the best. Okay now then Annette in Colchester?

ANNETTE: Hi, I'm a self employed artist craftsperson and I want to know if I can include as expenses short courses I might go on but which don't give me a qualification and whether I can add travelling costs and recently I've been on an art holiday where I painted, so can I include that or

DUGGLEBY: Oh yes lots of ideas here - right Jane what can?

MOORE: Are you sure this is one question we're talking?

DUGGLEBY: We started off on courses but I mean there are fairly - there are - the Revenue do recognise qualifications and they do recognise costs to better yourself, but what do they accept, what don't they?

MOORE: You are actually in business as an artist already are you Annette?

ANNETTE: Yes

MOORE: That's fine. Well anything that you pay out in order to update your knowledge for which is relevant to your profession generally you can claim a tax deduction for - that's the basic rule. So the courses are specifically for your - your work are they?

ANNETTE: Yes yes. Because they're enjoyable and - once I did phone the helpline and they said well anyone could go on a course like that so therefore it wouldn't count.

DUGGLEBY: John this business - the taxman definitely says enjoyable tick this box if yes!

WHITING: Well we all enjoy our work don't we? - but Annette's painted a wonderful picture of a tax problem. And I think the fact that - I mean it's true Vincent - we could all go on this and probably enjoy it but the fact it Annette would be able to argue she is going on this in the course of her business, for her business, wholly and exclusively for her business so that is the argument she could claim the course costs. The holiday a bit iffy but I mean if you can show you went on it for the business, you got some results out of the business fine.

DUGGLEBY; The fact you stayed at a nice hotel is not relevant actually

WHITING: No - the travel expenses - I mean you would say I presume you are based at home?

ANNETTE: Yes

WHITING: In which case you know all your work is done from home. Therefore the travelling expenses are all in the course of your business.

MOORE: Yes I mean I would say -just coming back to the holiday briefly - that just indicates the problem when you have part personal part private, part business expenses - the thing to do: claim it if you want to. Make sure you put on your tax return what you're doing.

DUGGLEBY: Okay?

ANNETTE: Okay thank you

DUGGLEBY: I want to take a couple more quick calls - Jean first in Ormskirk?

JEAN: Oh good afternoon. My question is to do with two bonds which we cashed in this year. Now the three boxes to put the relevant information in -we're supposed to put the information for the two bonds in each of these three boxes. The tax officer told us we can only put one figure down. Now one bond ran for four years and one bond ran for five years. So

DUGGLEBY: Okay, this is profit on a bond - taxable profit on a bond okay? Well let's try and get the generality of this John without going into too much specifics?

WHITING: Well I mean if it comes to the crunch the short answer is to put the composite figure down as best you can and explain it in the white space what you're doing, because I mean that would operate as a general principle if people - going away for a minute from Jean's exact point - if anybody's in any doubt and struggling to fit it in the best thing is to put it in as best you can and explain it in a white space.

DUGGLEBY: So use - use the white space to add what's called the additional information Jean. Okay?

JEAN: But the other part of the problem is that the chargeable events certificate that we've received, one of the companies gives us a tax figure and the other company hasn't. Now we have been trying for some while to extract a tax figure from the second company.

DUGGLEBY: Give up. I think you've tried but John I mean?

WHITING: You can only go so far and again it's - don't hold things up. Don't put yourself into a problem just because somebody hasn't given you the information. The best thing is to as we've said fill in the information best you can, explain and get it in.

DUGGLEBY: And a final quick comment Lynne from Portsmouth - I know you've been hanging on because you wanted to make a very quick point?

LYNNE: It is a very quick point just to say I've listened to your programme and everybody - we just don't know about this tax thing and self assessment. Take everything down to the tax office, talk to them. I did it. I took 4 carrier bags full down. And they did everything for me.

DUGGLEBY: Great. What can you follow that with John?

WHITING: I wholly applaud your initiative Lynne - jolly well done and could you give the address of your tax office at the end of this programme to all listeners please.

DUGGLEBY: John Whiting, thank you very much indeed from PriceWaterhouse and Jane Moore as well from Tax Aid. We've got transcripts of the programmes on our website on bbc.co.uk/moneybox and there's our helpline on 08700 100 400 Don't forget to join Paul Lewis for MONEY BOX on Saturday at noon. I'll be back same time next Monday afternoon to take more of your calls on MONEY BOX LIVE

BACK ANNO: That was Vincent Duggleby and the producer was Georgina Davies.