Presenter: Vincent Duggleby

Guests: Helen Brown, Colin Taylor

TRANSMISSION 19th NOV 2001 1500 - 1530 RADIO 4

ANNOUNCER : It's two minutes past three and time for MONEY BOX LIVE with Vincent Duggleby

DUGGLEBY: Good afternoon. The aim of this Money Box Live is to address the problems faced by older people whose income has fallen sharply over the past few years. It's the flip side of lower interest rates and lower annuities. Great for borrowers, but despite pious statements from building societies, those who've seen their income from savings cut in half have been largely ignored. Budgeting is made even harder by the continuing rise in unavoidable bills for council tax, gas and electricity and insurance premiums, and the government plans for a pension credit to help those with modest savings don't start until 2003.

The dilemma for many retired people is that their asset rich and cash poor, the main asset being a house they may have lived in for 20 or 30 years. Some trade down or move into sheltered accommodation releasing funds for investment. Others are determined to stay put not least because property has been the best investment they've ever made and they want to leave something to their children. The market has long recognised the need for schemes to unlock this capital which are variously described as equity release, lifetime mortgages and home income plans.

The idea is simple enough - you borrow against the value of your home and when it's sold the debt is paid off. Unfortunately the system fell into disrepute in the late 80s when some pensioners found the debts soared out of control and they were stuck in poorly performing funds. Since then great efforts have been made to minimise the risk but it's not something you should consider without professional advice, and that's what we'll be offering in the next half hour to anyone who wants to know whether it's feasible to get extra income from their home, how much it costs? Whether it effects state benefits or tax liability and what are the legal safeguards? 08700 100 444 is the number to call and with me in the studio: Helen Brown who runs her own financial services company specialising in the field from Birmingham, and Colin Taylor, managing director of Key Retirement Solutions from Derby.

And our first caller is Reece in Taunton. Are you there Reece?

REECE: Oh hello

DUGGLEBY: ` Hello

REECE: Yes I didn't realise I was on. Yes.

DUGGLEBY: You are

REECE: I'm a pensioner. I'm 68 years old and I own my own house. I've got no mortgage and no debts.

DUGGLEBY: No family?

REECE: Three sons

DUGGLEBY: Three sons

REECE: Two have just completed university - got their degrees and one is still at university. At the moment I'm just sort of ambling along on my pension but I've got no cash that I can get at and really I don't want to go into a loan situation because obviously I'd have to repay - say I took out a banking loan I suppose I'd have to repay over a period of time and I don't think my pension would stand it. So I was considering equity release.

DUGGLEBY: Right, well I think that's enough information to go on. So who'd like to start off? Helen, I think this sounds as though Reece might be a candidate for this sort of scheme?

BROWN: Yes indeed. If we're looking at cash release at aged 68 then you could release Reece somewhere in the region of about 23 - 25% of the value of your property.

DUGGLEBY: And that would come in what form - literally just a cash sum?

BROWN: That would be a cash lump sum which would then be paid directly to Reece for him to invest as he so wishes. The other option worth considering is a reversion plan - a reversion plan is where for want of a better word you surrender a portion of the interest that you own in your property Reece.

REECE: Yes.

BROWN: Generally from 50% to 100% - the benefit of the reversion plans for some is that they can release a higher level of cash than the cash release plans.

DUGGLEBY: Now stop - I'll stop you there because let's try and distinguish these two things and perhaps Colin can help. Plan one you take out some cash but you retain the ownership of the house. It's the loan that is the liability. But in case two, you actually relinquish the house - is that right?

TAYLOR: Yeah. The first particular scheme is a mortgage scheme where the interest is rolled up over the years so you take out a fixed rate mortgage - you don't pay any repayments on that mortgage until you either leave the property or on your death. And the interest is rolled up all the way through Reece and it depends if on that particular type of scheme it's quite a good scheme, but it depends whether you want to leave an inheritance and with that type of plan you really can't say how much you're going to leave for your three sons.

REECE: No right.

TAYLOR: The reversion plan - sorry Reece?

REECE: Sorry to interrupt but I have talked to them about this and they're quite happy with that because they're obviously going to get (bad line)

DUGGLEBY: Okay well yes I'm sorry the line seems to have gone but I think you caught the gist of it - they're quite happy that their father should indeed go into some sort of arrangement.

TAYLOR: So it just depends really then he wants to leave a proportion of inheritance and if wants from the outset to do that - my recommendation would be to look at the reversion type plan because he can actually release 30% of his property, as low as 30%, and he could actually take a lump sum on that property and then he's got 70% ownership left to leave for his three sons in the future.

DUGGLEBY: But Helen can you help us with some of the names - the companies that are involved, can you just run through the sort of people who offer these plans cos they're strange to many people.

BROWN: Yes, if you're looking at cash release plans, Norwich Union, Northern Rock and MPI are the recent entrants. Scottish Widows have entered the marketplace with a cash release plan. If you're looking at reversion plans then you're looking at companies such as Julian Hodge Bank otherwise known as - or previously known as Carlisle Life. You're also looking at GE Capital. Other companies worth considering are G - sorry GE Life, I've mentioned that - Home and Capital Trust Limited, and indeed Key Retirement.

DUGGLEBY: Now Colin, there is an organisation called the Safe Home Income Plan and that's a trade organisation. Are all these companies members of that scheme?

TAYLOR: All the companies except Scottish Widows are members of Safe Home Income Plan - that's the only company which Helen's mentioned which isn't and they set down minimum standards where they actually say that the client has to be protected in the state - that when they die there can be no

DUGGLEBY: No overriding debt which is going to - put them - make them bankrupt or anything?

TAYLOR: Yeah, and if they wish to move they have the right to move as well.

DUGGLEBY: So they set - they set some standards which all members have to abide by?

TAYLOR: Yeah. I think the only one for a cash reversion that Helen missed was Bridgewaters - Bridgewaters Property Trust.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, we'd better move on I think. We've spent quite a long time on that broad principle and hopefully we've cleared up some of the basics of how these plans work so we'll move on to Pat in Swindon - Pat?

PAT: Hello

DUGGLEBY: Your question?

PAT: I have an equity release mortgage. I want to know why the loan still remains 8.2%?

DUGGLEBY: When did you take it out?

PAT: Approximately a year ago

DUGGLEBY: Who with?

PAT: With Northern Rock

DUGGLEBY: Right

PAT: Who you could actually raise a fifth of the value of your house is you were over 60.

DUGGLEBY: Right, and you've got a fixed rate with them did you?

PAT: Yeah

DUGGLEBY: Or a variable rate?

PAT: 8.2 - they didn't do variable rates.

DUGGLEBY: Okay can you - can you comment on that perhaps Colin?

TAYLOR: Yeah I mean all the schemes have to be fixed rate because it's part of the guarantee that your rates will never go up. It's pretty hard to actually work out a rate between you know do you live 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years? So the societies actually work out a rate at the time looking at market forces. Obviously the interest rates have come down over the last year quite - quite considerably and now the Northern Rock product is standing at approximately 7.55% or 7.59% I think it is and they've also brought out a capped rate which again is 1.99% over base. So they have reacted but at that particular time it was 8.2

DUGGLEBY: Yeah, so essentially Pat it's a snapshot of the position at the time - unfortunately, and Helen perhaps you'd comment on this - it's doesn't work like a normal mortgage where you can sort of lock in a fixed rate for three years and then come back for more. They won't buy that argument when you're 60 or 70?

BROWN: No indeed. Pat, may I ask you your age?

PAT: I'm 64

BROWN: 64. And presumably

PAT: I plan to live till I'm 94.

TAYLOR: Well done

BROWN: There's your answer really Pat because you're looking really at 30 years possibility of having the use of those funds at a fixed for life rate. I would suggest that on a mainstream mortgage you'd be lucky to get a long term fixed rate in excess of 10 years, so the lenders basically when looking at equity release plans are taking a certain risk in establishing how long you're going to live and what interest rate they can offer you which is guaranteed for life - it is not a variable rate so at least you know that in 30 years time exactly how much will have to paid back to the provider which is

PAT: Well I have actually been paying off about 3.2% to keep it down to 5% - to keep ahead of the rate at which the property is sort of improving in value.

DUGGELBY: I'm not quite sure I follow that

PAT: Well it's 8.2% so I've been paying 3.2% back to them

DUGGLEBY: Oh I see you're actually paying the interest - in other words you're not rolling up the interest?

PAT: No not so much and I don't intend to always stay here anyway cos it's a huge house.

DUGGLEBY: Okay right. Well just a brief comment on that - is that possible then that you can have a sort of - you don't have to roll the interest up, you can have a sort of mixed - mixed mortgage which some parts paid off and the other bits rolled off that you don't want to pay off at the time?

BROWN: Well with Norwich Union they don't like cash - actually paying cash back so are you actually paying capital back to Norwich Union direct?

PAT: I'm in - not Norwich Union

DUGGLEBY: Northern Rock

BROWN: Northern Rock, I do apologise.

PAT: Yes, every three months I send a certain amount just to try and keep it down to 5% per year and they haven't complained about it - they've taken the money!

TAYLOR: Very good that's a first

DUGGLEBY: Well yes my guests are looking somewhat nonplussed by that information Pat. They've filed it away and I think they'll go away afterwards and find out what sort of scheme it is and whether they might offer it to other clients. Thanks for the call. David in Warrington, you're next? Hello David, are you there?

DAVID: Yes I am

DUGGLEBY: Right, your question.

DAVID: Right, I've heard the first two people on the programme and that's answered a lot of my questions but there's one that I considered - as I say I'm sort of early retired

DUGGLEBY: Age?

DAVID: 61. And I was looking at the possibility of remortgaging and then just paying interest only - remortgaging the house and then just paying interest and then investing or spending part of the money that's come from that?

DUGGLEBY: Getting - in other words - getting a more favourable rate. Yeah

DAVID: Well I've got no mortgage - the house is paid off but as I say

DUGGLEBY: But you can - you can - I think it's right to say that you can, if you just go for a straight remortgage with none of these guarantees or fixed rates for life and anything, then you would expect to pay less. Now what's wrong with that or maybe that is right?

DAVID: No that's what the question to yourself - do you think that would be good especially when the interest rates are so low at the moment?

DUGGLEBY: Yeah Colin's just going to answer that

TAYLOR: And I'm going to ask a question first David - are you still working?

DAVID: No I'm not.

TAYLOR: Do you have income coming in from pension?

DAVID: No I've not.

TAYLOR: Okay

DAVID: Well I haven't - sorry that's another question - I've not claimed my Equitable Life pension yet.

TAYLOR: At the moment you've got no income coming in at all?

DAVID: Not really other than the wife

TAYLOR: Okay, so the question you've got to ask yourself is this - if you take out an interest only mortgage which means that you're going to have to pay back interest even though at a low rate at the moment, and maybe you can fix that for 2, 3, 5 years - but at some stage you're going to have to pay that interest back every month and it may go up in the future. Can you actually afford to pay interest back at the moment?

DAVID: Obviously if you're remortgaging you get sort of three quarters of the value of a house, and you put that on one side. I know the interest rates are not high that will subside some of the mortgage repayments

TAYLOR: Okay - this is what happened back in the 80s though and really we - I would not recommend that you actually take out a loan to actually then invest to actually pay the interest on it - I think that's very dangerous and it could come to a time when you actually couldn't afford to pay that interest for whatever reason, so I wouldn't certainly recommend it - Helen?

BROWN: Hello David. David, with regards to the interest only retirement mortgages which indeed you would qualify for - they start at the age of 55 onwards and are ideal for people who wish to raise a mortgage - generally �25,000 is the minimum. Now as Colin has already said obviously the main concern is the ability to service that mortgage. I understand exactly what you're trying to say - and interest rates as low as 3.9% it's worth considering but you need to take advice before making that decision.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, thanks for that call David and we'll move on quickly to Clare in London.

CLARE: Hello

DUGGLEBY: Hello Clare

CLARE: What is the effect if any of taking out one of these retirement mortgages on inheritance tax? My flat's increased up to about �200,000 in value over this last 5 years and I've got to think very seriously about heading towards paying IHT?

DUGGLEBY: Well you don't pay it Helen - it's your heirs who actually pay it, so I wouldn't like to suggest that you use the inheritance tax dog to sort of wag the tail. You're not currently in inheritance tax land - it's �240,000 for starters?

CLARE: Yes I've investment as well you see so

DUGGLEBY: Sure, but I get your point. What you're saying is if you reduce the value of the house within your estate you will save inheritance tax?

CLARE: Well would it

DUGGLEBY: Well yeah obviously it would because if you don't - if you only leave half the value of the house then you clearly wouldn't be in the inheritance tax bracket

CLARE: Right

DUGGLEBY: The key question, which I want to put to Colin, is - is does this make sense? Does - do the sums add up? Whereas - or you're deliberately reducing the value of in quotes 'an asset'?

TAYLOR: Well it depends again really on inheritance tax - it depends very much on the circumstances of the person, if they're a higher rate tax payer, if depending on the age - Clare what age did you say you were?

CLARE: 68

TAYLOR: 68 - you're getting to an age where you actually - it could make sense but you'd have to - I believe you'd have to be over 70 to actually make sense of it, because if you think about it - if you take away from your property value, then at the end of the day you're going to leave less for your inheritance. Unless you get over a certain figure and at the moment its �242,000 - so unless you get over that figure it makes no sense whatsoever at the moment, so at the moment I wouldn't do anything.

CLARE: Once your property's heading to �2 - 200,000 and plus and you've got savings as well then it's the question of where does the balance come? And if it definitely reduces inheritance tax in two years time when I'm 70 if the property is that much more valuable.

DUGGLEBY: But hang on a minute Clare, if you're worried about inheritance tax, this is presumably because you've got children or people who are going to inherit this money right?

CLARE: I have three sons, one of whom has been able to acquire a property

DUGGLEBY: Right, well in that case you know frankly I think you're slightly barking up the wrong tree because this is inheritance tax planning and I'm not sure that a home income plan or that sort of thing is about number sort of 27 on the list of possibilities - as Colin said maybe in 2 or 3 years time. But you will need to go along and get yourself to a tax advisor to work out possibilities - trading down the house, giving part of it to your children - all sorts of things could be considered to minimise your inheritance tax, but I don't think at this stage that income plans, home income plans is one of them. Not at the moment - okay? And we'll move on to Victoria in Stevenage?

VICTORIA: Oh hello. I want to know whether if I took out the equity on my house, and subsequently after all that was agreed I was able to sell off part of my garden for development, would that sum be included in the percentage which the equity people took at the end when I died?

DUGGLEBY: Dangerous waters there I think Helen?

VICTORIA: Well that's what I thought it might be

BROWN: Yes, hello Victoria. Yes, definitely dangerous waters. Why consider equity release when in actual fact you could be coming into quite a nice lump sum from the sale of your garden to the developer?

VICTORIA: Could I just answer that? - because it's not likely to happen for about another 5 years although I've had a developer interested for - for various reasons.

DUGGLEBY: Well the simple answer is simply get your solicitor to draw up a deed which - in which you retain the ownership in two parts - the bit of the garden you're going to sell is one - is one bit and your house is the other bit. Having done that then I'm sure Helen would be delighted to deal with the bit - the garden will have nothing to do with it then. It'll just be the property less the bit you've kept and you keep the ownership of the land.

VICTORIA: So you can get - you can divide your property by law?

DUGGLEBY: You can do what you like with your own property. I mean there's - once you get in the hands of an insurance company though Helen, of course then it would be difficult. I mean this idea of sort of the insurance company saying well oh yeah you can have a bit of your garden - I mean

BROWN: Yes, indeed. Anything that you do to the house which is significant either to the house itself or its immediate garden area the equity release provider would need to know. And that includes even if you're thinking about improving the property.

VICTORIA: Well that - that is my idea, that if I took out an equity release I could improve the property which I can't do at the moment because I don't have the capital.

DUGGLEBY: Yes I mean this is - this is - Colin this is a legitimate reason I mean people want to maintain their property in good order perhaps - put an extra bathroom on or something like that. Very legitimate reason for raising the money but how do the insurance companies view this as it were if you like to use a phrase 'messing around with their - their asset'?

TAYLOR: Oh no I mean an investment company's over the moon if you want to improve the property they've either mortgaged against or you've sold part of. And probably 30% of the equity people that take equity release out do it for home improvement - to either put central heating in, bathroom in, or just generally put double glazing in or actually sprucing the house up so it - it - this is probably the biggest single reason that people actually do it.

DUGGLEBY: But Helen surely this is just putting money in the pockets of the insurance company?

BROWN Indeed, if you're looking at a reversion scheme where you may have surrendered 100% of your interest in the property, do you really want to spend money on improving the property for the use of the insurance company or for the benefit of the provider? - so you've got think very carefully. If you're looking at a cash release plan where you want to carry out improvements then talk to the company before to establish what part of the property is always going to be taken into consideration in respect of the improvement, but be very careful about reversion plans and then carrying out the money that you've released to improve.

TAYLOR: I think there's two things to look at there: - the reversion plan, absolutely right, you are actually benefiting the company at the end of the day, but the reason people actually take out these plans is cos they want to live in their home, and this is their home so they actually want to make their home better to live in - they want the style they want to live in, they want the comfort.

DUGGLEBY: So there's a three part plan for you Victoria. First of all separate off the garden, get your solicitors to do that if you like, then consider what money you might raise from the house, go to an advisor that specialises in the field, see whether it's feasible and if it is feasible then make sure that whatever you do that you understand fully what's yours and what will ultimately belong to the insurance company. And we'll move to Stephen in Southport.

STEPHEN: Good afternoon

DUGGLEBY: Good afternoon.

STEPHEN: My question really involves my wife who is in a nursing home aged 71. I myself am aged 73 and am looking into the question of increasing my income, but a little bit apprehensive in regard to the fact that the DSS obviously is involved in - in watching over my house.

DUGGLEBY: Yes, they have an interest of course in case you presumably go into care for some reason?

STEPHEN: Yes if - I - well I am continuing to live in the house, but obviously don't wish to - to overstep the mark in - in - if it is possible to do this but not to overstep the mark and - invoke their wrath as it were.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, well I get your point. I mean it's important Helen here to distinguish between what the generation of the extra income may do to your benefits?

BROWN: Indeed Stephen. If you're looking for income from any of these plans - well there's two factors here because your wife is in a nursing home - is the property in joint names?

STEPHEN: It is

BROWN: It is. In that particular case then you probably need to take some legal advice, but if you did decide to take - go down the road of equity release and draw an income, then indeed the best thing to do is have a chat to social services and the benefits agency to see the affect of that income against benefit in respect of both your wife's nursing home fees as well as your own income. Do you receive income support at the moment Stephen?

STEPHEN: No, my wife does but I do not.

BROWN: Right. So I think what you first of all need to do is whether to look at the property - should it continue to be in joint names or in your name only? And

STEPHEN: It's rather difficult to change

DUGGLEBY: Yeah cos Alzheimer's means you can't change it

STEPHEN: Alzheimer's - she is

DUGGLEBY: She's incapable

STEPHEN: She's not capable of understanding anything

DUGGLEBY: That's right -no you can't do that - no. So, it looks to me as though you'd have to go to a solicitor I think first of all - and anyway you would be required to go to a solicitor of course to do these plans. Colin, I don't want to go into detail here but are your - are people like yourselves capable of taking on the - you know providing the sort of advice here as to whether it's possible to go ahead - I mean saving people like Stephen time and worry?

TAYLOR: I think in Stephen's case we would take specialist advice ourselves actually before we actually go back and recommend. We take all the details which we need to do and then we'd seek a specialist

DUGGLEBY: So you'd be able to say really essentially yes you can go ahead or no sorry it won't work. So before we get into details, I think that's what you need Stephen. You need - go to a solicitor, go to a financial advisor and say is it feasible, because if it isn't I don't want to waste my time. If they then say yes it is, then you can proceed to do some enquiries about what your particular needs are. Okay, thanks for the call and Eileen in Belfast your question now?

EILEEN: Hello - hello my friend is 62 - nearly 62 and she has contacted several companies with a view to releasing equity in her home which she owns.

DUGGLEBY: That's in Belfast is it?

EILEEN: The main stumbling block seems to be that they don't deal with anyone in Northern Ireland.

DUGGLEBY: Right or wrong Colin?

TAYLOR: Right at the moment. There is no equity release provided that I know of at the moment actually dealing in Northern Ireland, although I'm told that there are product providers looking at it at this moment in time and we hope that in the near future we will be able to do equity release in Northern Ireland.

DUGGLEBY: What don't they like Belfast property?

TAYLOR: I can't answer that question. I'm not a product provider.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, so there you are Eileen. Nothing at the moment - watch this space I think is the message there, and I think if on Money Box we hear who it is then we'll undoubtedly tell you unless you keep listening we shall be the first to tell you when one of the providers decides that Northern Ireland is a reasonable business proposition which it isn't apparently at the moment. And Rosemary in Bournemouth, you've got a call now?

ROSEMARY: Yes I have - hello?

DUGGLEBY: Yes we're here.

ROSEMARY: My parents sold 50% of the freehold in their house about 11 years ago to a company dealing with equity release. The house

DUGGLEBY: What was that - what was it? - who was it do you know?

ROSEMARY: It was a company called Home For Life.

DUGGLEBY: Right

ROSEMARY: The house was valued at the time by a local agent at �144,000 and they accepted that valuation. Now I've just discovered that once the expenses were paid they received less than �24,000. My question is was this amount they received for 50% of the property the going rate for that type of deal?

DUGGLEBY: Yes, quite a long time ago. Can either of you cast - can you cast your mind back to the circumstances at the time Helen?

BROWN: Rosemary, how old were your parents at the time?

ROSEMARY: They were both in their 70s

BROWN: Both in their 70s. This is I think a reversion plan - a 50% reversion plan.

ROSEMARY: Yes they simple sold the freehold I guess

BROWN: That's right. Basically, when a reversion company works out or calculates how much they're going to give for a percentage or a share in the property, they will actually work out mortality - by three mortality tables how long people are going to live. Now I can't obviously speak for this particular company but the amount of monies that would have been passed on to your parents taking into consideration the fact that although they've sold 50%, they can actually remain living in 100% of that property for the whole of that period. So it is very much around the mortality tables so they all vary I must admit with regards to the percentages but

DUGGLEBY: Can you forecast exactly at the time - I mean if somebody said to you what happens if I die at 80 - can you people actually say what the proceeds would be?

TAYLOR: Yeah, I mean both on the mortgage and on reversion you can on a reversion obviously it's easy because let's take the example you own �100,000 house, you sell 50% of it, when you die at 80 you've still got 50% of your property so if the house is now �200,000 your estate is �100,000, cos you own 50%. On a mortgage, each mortgage provider actually shows a table which shows you over a length of up to 30 years normally or what you'd actually owe if you died at 80 years of age and you took it out at 70.

DUGGLEBY: But would - would the terms have been less favourable 10 years ago than they are now?

TAYLOR: Well the problem is I don't know this particular company, do you Helen?

BROWN: No I don't. I mean I looked at some examples - today a single lady aged 73 with a property of �100,000 on a 100% reversion would expect to receive about �47/48,000, so that gives you an idea of how things have moved on.

DUGGLEBY: Okay, we can take one more call I think. Thanks for that one Rosemary. Dorothy in Looe if you could make it quick please?

DOROTHY: Yes, I took out 3 years ago a Bosam - Bank of Scotland Shared Appreciation Mortgage, which gave me 25% of the value of my house which was then �63,000. And you'd no interest to pay but you pay back the sum plus 75% of the appreciation on death or sale. There was also told at the time we could after a year or so there would be the probability of taking out more, another 25%. When I asked about that twice - twice I've asked about it, they hadn't the funds for it - they would like to, but they can't. If I want to get it from another firm I have to first to pay back this which is an immense amount

DUGGLEBY: Right, I must cut you off there Dorothy - we're running out of time. Helen, can you give an answer, why no more loans?

BROWN: The scheme originally was brought out on the basis that they wouldn't consider further advances although the Bank of Scotland have back tracked slightly since. In your particular case Dorothy, you can actually pay off the Bank of Scotland scheme, dependent obviously on the value of your property now and consider a new equity release plan, but you do need to take professional advice before taking that step. But further advances at the moment - Bank of Scotland, no.

DUGGLEBY: Okay. Thank you very much indeed Helen Brown from Helen Brown Financial Services, and Colin Taylor, thanks to you from Key Retirement Solutions. We've run out of time as I say but don't forget we have an information line you can call if you need to know more about anything we've been talking about on the programme. That number is 0800 044 044 And alternatively, if you have access to the Internet, our website is at bbc.co.uk/moneybox. Don't forget to join Paul Lewis for that programme indeed - MONEY BOX at noon on Saturday, and I'll be back same time next Monday afternoon to take more of your calls on MONEY BOX LIVE.

BACK ANNO: That was Vincent Duggleby and the producer was Jennifer Clarke.