THIS TRANSCRIPT IS ISSUED ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS TAKEN FROM A LIVE PROGRAMME AS IT WAS BROADCAST. THE NATURE OF LIVE BROADCASTING MEANS THAT NEITHER THE BBC NOR THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE PROGRAMME CAN GUARANTEE THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION PRINTED HERE.

Tape Transcript by JANE TEMPLE

MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter: Paul Lewis

Guests: Carmel Walker Sally West Gary Vaux

TRANSMISSION 22nd OCT 2001 1500 - 1530 RADIO 4

ANNOUNCER : And now it's time for MONEY BOX LIVE with Paul Lewis:

LEWIS: Hello, from today some disabled people will face losing their social security benefits if they refuse to attend an interview about getting back to work. It's all part of the government's strategy of work for those who can, welfare for those who can't - but is it going too far? Pensions, benefits and social security payments cost us all a 100 billion pounds a year, but there are still more than a million people who don't get what they need or are entitled to. They could get more money each week to boost their income but don't claim it. Perhaps it's all just too complicated, too difficult or too confusing, so today we hope to spread a little understanding and answer your questions on benefits for children, families, disabled people, pensioners, and for those out of work. What can you claim? And what can you do if things go wrong? Money Box Live - call us now on 08700 100 444 And with me today to answer your questions are Gary Vaux, who's head of money advice with Hertfordshire County Council, Carmel Walker, Welfare Rights Adviser with Enfield Social Services, and Sally West, income policy office with Age Concern. And the first question is from Michael in Darlington. Michael, your question?

MICHAEL: Good afternoon. As a regular Radio 4 listener I keep hearing government ministers saying that only new claimants will be asked to attend for these interviews. I've just been given a week ago another IB50 to fill in, and I filled one in 2 years ago.

LEWIS And that's a form about your condition?

MICHAEL: That's correct.

LEWIS: Okay, well let me ask Gary Vaux first - I mean Gary, before we come on to Michael's particular point about his own case, just tell us about these new rules and who they affect?

VAUX: Right, the new rules will only apply to people who claim from today onwards, so in that sense what Michael's been hearing is absolutely right. However, the - there's always been tests for people on incapacity benefit - and other long term benefits. So I think there's been a bit of confusion between in fact the old tests and the new ones which come into effect today.

LEWIS: Because it is a myth isn't it that people who get these benefits then get them for life and no-one ever checks - and my experience is people are checked up on quite frequently?

VAUX: Absolutely. If you're on incapacity benefit for example, you could be checked up every 6 months for example to see if you're still unfit for work, so I think that's really what Michael's going through. The new tests apply really just to new claimants and in only certain parts of the country. It will spread to the rest of the country - bit like bad weather, but at the moment it is just in the Job Centre, what's called the Job Centre Plus Pilot areas.

LEWIS: And how many of those are there? How many people does it cover?

VAUX: There are 50 Job Centre Plus Pilot areas spread across the country - some in London, some around the North East, around the West Country - all across the country.

LEWIS: And how do we know if we're in one?

VAUX: Well there's a list of post codes with about 150 on them so I don't think that'll be much use. What there is, the local benefit agency will have started sending out letters with Job Centre Plus across the top instead of Benefits Agency.

LEWIS: Okay, Michael if you're still there - let me just ask you, have you got a particular question or complaint about the way you're being treated?

MICHAEL: Well the particular question was are the government telling the truth or have I got the wrong end of the story?

LEWIS: Well they're sort of telling the truth about the new rules, but I think we all agree the old rules are probably not much different so - okay, well thanks very much for your call and good luck with the IB50. Let's talk to Elizabeth now in Leighton Buzzard. What's your question Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH: I wonder how the government thinks it can run a system where all claimants are called for interview, when in my experience it does such a shamefully poor job with much less numerous interviews. I had an interview in November '99 after just 3 months of incapacity benefit and they turned me down. I appealed and it took 15 months for my tribunal appeal to be heard in which - at which point you know I'd gone 15 months without incapacity benefit. I won my appeal. But you know if

LEWIS: So are you saying that the medical people who examined you didn't know what they were doing or got it wrong?

ELIZABETH: Yes. The man was - well apart from the fact he was impatient and he was rude, he had no knowledge of head injuries whatsoever.

LEWIS: Carmel Walker is this a typical story that comes to you?

WALKER: Yes it is. The medical practitioners who carry out medical examinations have to be registered medical practitioners but they don't have to have a specialism in the condition presented by the person attending, so you have cases where especially for instance for people with mental health problems, you may get a practitioner who knows nothing about mental health problems. I do empathise with Elizabeth because obviously a lot of medical practitioners have no - do not have a broad knowledge of the conditions presented.

LEWIS: And Gary Vaux, who actually carries these out? - is it your own doctor?

VAUX: No, they say that your own doctor would be too biased in your favour, so they use an independent company. It's independent in the sense that it's paid for by the benefits agency, and this

LEWIS: So they're not biased towards the benefits agency?

VAUX: Oh of course not, of course not. And this company do supply doctors - they're called EMPs - or examining medical practitioners. Many of them are semi retired and I think some of them maybe should take the semi out of their job title.

LEWIS: And who actually organises it - are they benefits agency employees?

VAUX; No but they're companies on contract to the benefits agency and they produce the reports which the benefits agency use to make their decisions. They don't technically make the decisions themselves but the benefit agency usually do follow whatever recommendation these semi independent doctors make.

LEWIS: So Elizabeth, I don't know if that answers your question - it simply confirms the experience you've had I think?

ELIZABETH: Yes I mean I would like to add that I went for an industrial injury interview and that person did know something about head injuries and was as nice as the other person was like unpleasant, so I've had two very, very different experiences.

LEWIS: From two

ELIZABETH: Maybe I was just lucky the second time.

LEWIS: From two slightly different services too I think, maybe there's something in that. Well thank you for your call Elizabeth. I hope - I hope we've answered your question satisfactorily. And now the other side of course with disability is people who look after them. Julie from Hemel Hempstead I think you're in that position?

JULIE: Yes hello

LEWIS: What's your question?

JULIE: Yes I'm looking after my mother who is 88 years of age and disabled and about a year ago I applied for invalid carers allowance, and low and behold we got a letter right out of the blue about a month ago stating that they will be deducting �42 a week from my mother who is on income support, and on top of it all she's expected to pay back what they consider is an overpayment. She's been recovering from major surgery and is waiting now for a knee replacement, and I feel that my mother should not be penalised. If I had known by applying for invalid carers allowance that it's going to interfere with my mother's benefit I would never have applied and it's only �11 a week anyway, so we're talking about a very miniscule payment.

LEWIS: Let me ask Sally West if this sounds right - does this sound correct interpretation of the law to you?

WEST: It can happen. Julie if your mother, with her income support was getting something called the severe disability premium which is an extra amount - so it's about �42 paid on top of the general sort of pensioner rate for income support, that's only paid to people who live alone and don't have a carer receiving invalid care allowance, so unfortunately if someone applies for invalid care allowance then they lose that premium. Now as you say it's a big problem particularly if you weren't aware of it. Now you say you're only about �11 better off?

JULIE: Yes yeah - I'm just getting �11 a week

WEST: Is that because you get income support?

JULIE: No no I don't get any benefits whatsoever. I just get a little pension here of �25 a week - so they told me they would take that into consideration and that's why I get something as low as that, but when I went to the Age Concern and the lawyer and the CAB they're all so totally confused, so in the end I had to write to my local MP. I just feel that you know they're constantly renaming and re-branding all the pensions here, so we're all confused and we do have a tribunal coming up so maybe you know something might come out of that.

LEWIS: From what you say Julie, it sounds as if you yourself are aged 60 or over?

JULIE : Pardon?

LEWIS: Are you aged more than 60?

JULIE: Yes yes I'm 63

LEWIS: So this raises another question Sally. This is the overlap - we've had other questions about that between invalid care allowance and the pensions?

WEST; Yes I mean what sometimes happens - people in your situation is that your mother would lose the sort of �42 but you'd get more or less the same from invalid care allowance, so between the two or you you're in the same position, but there are some cases like you are where the rules, the law means that you actually between you worse off, so in your situation it is probably better for you not to be receiving invalid care allowance (talking over)

JULIE: But the thing is I would - I asked them to cancel my ICA and they would not and the very words that he said, he turned around and he said no that's not on - he said for you to cancel your ICA so your mother can continue he said definitely not.

LEWIS: Gary Vaux - hang on a second Julie. Gary Vaux is that right? - can you not give up a benefit?

VAUX: Of course you can. I mean each benefit has got it's own rules and so if you tell them that you no longer meet the rules for that benefit they're obliged to take the benefit off you, so if you said for example I'm no longer caring for 35 hours a week which is one of the rules for invalid care allowance, then they'd be obliged

LEWIS: But of course that may not be true, it's a difficult thing isn't it? But I mean the position Julie's in is that she can't give it up according to the benefits agency office. What can she do in this particular case?

VAUX: It is a difficult position because if she is providing that amount of care then obviously she wouldn't be able to say what I've just said, but I think she would have a choice because she's not leaving herself any worse off. You can have situations where if you're deliberately not claiming your benefit in order to get something else they can still treat you as if you've got that benefit. But that doesn't sound like that's the situation here, so I would say she should go back to the benefits agency and just say I want to give up my invalid care allowance. And probably the best way would be just to send the order book back.

LEWIS: And if it doesn't work contact her MP, make a complaint of that sort?

VAUX: Certainly and certainly contact her local CAB or Age Concern or local authority welfare rights unit.

LEWIS: Okay, thanks for that call Julie and let's move on to Pat who has a similar problem with her invalid care allowance. Pat, from Bexhill hello?

PAT Hello

LEWIS: Your question?

PAT: Yes it is quite similar really but my real question was why when we turn 60 which I do in February, why do we lose the benefit - the ICA goes completely and whatever little pittance of state pension I'll be entitled to cos I've never paid - I've never worked full time, I've always paid on my husband's stamp or whatever it is. And they say that they will maybe make my state pension up to what I would lose between the �40 a week ICA and whatever I might get state benefit. But the caring won't stop will it? I shall still be doing my 35 hours plus plus plus for my mother who I - I also have my mother living with me.

LEWIS: Absolutely. Let me talk to Carmel Walker. Carmel, this is a problem isn't it? - once you reach 60 you can't get both care - carers allowance and the retirement pension?

WALKER: Well at the moment it's because of the state retirement age so obviously at 60 women do begin to get state retirement pension and there is an overlap between invalid care allowance and state retirement pension.

LEWIS: That means you can't get them both at the same time - or not on top of each other?

WALKER: Not on top of each other no unfortunately, but as Pat says she's still continuing the caring. Hopefully, I mean obviously Sally can expand on this, it's supposed to be extended to 65 plus from possibly the end of next year but

PAT: I'll stop getting it by then won't I?

LEWIS: Okay Sally what is happening because this has been a source of a lot of complaints hasn't it?

WEST: Yes there are some changes, but I don't think it's going to help people in Pat's situation unfortunately. Currently you can make your first claim for invalid care allowance up to the age of 65, but as you know as people unfortunately find out, they overlap, so you can't get them both. What the government is - is planning to do is to take away that upper age limit, but at the moment they're not intending to change the overlapping benefit rules. So although there will be some older carers who'll be helped in the future, there will still be these rules which we hear from people in similar situation Pat all the time - carers think it's very unfair, and I think it is the rules and it's one to write to your MP about and try and get Parliament to change the rules on this one.

LEWIS: So it is just one of those things that the rules provide for and unfair as we all agree it is Pat there's nothing we can do anyway to change the law so I'm sorry about that, but let's move on to Gerald who's calling us from Orpington - Gerald?

GERALD: Yes my question is regarding a widow's inheritance rights to SERPS

LEWIS: Okay let me just - SERPS is the extra pension you get based on your earnings and this is about whether if you die your widow will get that pension after your death?

GERALD: That's right yes - earlier this year the DSS made it quite clear that provided I arrange to die before the 5th October next year my widow would inherit 100% of my SERPS entitlement and added that Parliament was being asked to approve plans which would mean that I could go on living after the 5th October next year with a clear conscience. Was Parliament asked and what did they say?

LEWIS: Well there were some changes - there was the famous quote from Margaret Beckett now of course the Secretary of State at the Department of the Environment that she suggested we all put a pillow over their husband's faces - this was when the Conservatives were introducing this rule many years ago - anyway Sally Hale - Sally West, they did make some changes, what are they?

WEST: They did yes so if Gerald's wife listening you know you don't need the pillow! - it's - they've changed the rules so it's not about when you die - it's about when you reach pension age. Can I ask if you're a pensioner already now?

GERALD: Yes we're both well and truly pensioners.

WEST: Right, that's fine then. As long as somebody actually reaches pension age by the 5th October 2002 they won't be affected by the changes so it means that your wife would be able to continue receiving your full SERPs pension - however long you life. For people who are slightly younger, there will be some sort of phased introduction of the changes, so the full effect won't effect anybody who isn't a pensioner until the 5th October 2010.

GERALD: Right

LEWIS: So there have been - okay Gerald, well that's answered your question - you can - you can live on with a clear conscience. Let's go to Sally now who's ringing from Holbeach - Sally, your question?

SALLY: Hello hello

LEWIS: Your question, yes Sally?

SALLY: It's actually regarding an old lady who isn't a relative but of whom I'm very fond. It's basically I think means testing. It's been suggested to her that she should be claiming supplementary benefit - she's 84 and diabetic and on the basic state pension. She has had the form sent to her which I understand is about 30 pages. She's very frightened of this. She regards it as going on to the parish I think or something in this - and I really don't have that much influence about it but I wondered whether there was any private or independent adviser that I could contact - I would be happy to do this for her who were not actually social services who would give a bit of advice on this. She is very frightened that if she - she declares, fills the form in, declares I think the �1000 odd that she's got in savings she might then lose her council tax benefit.

LEWIS: Right, well that certainly shouldn't happen. There are a lot of problems and there are something like half a million pensioners who aren't claiming what is now called minimum income guarantee - it was income support, was supplementary benefit, was national assistance and was the parish before that. Gary Vaux, this is a common problem isn't it?

VAUX: It is indeed. People are very anxious about giving that level of information out - the �1000 or so you mentioned your friend has in savings will have no effect at all on

LEWIS: Just remind us how much we can have?

VAUX: For pensioner it would �6000 so there's absolutely no problem there with the savings limit and even above �6000 it would have a small impact right up to �12,000 for the absolute cut off point, so there's no problem there. In terms of getting advice and information, the benefits agency do run called the minimum income guarantee helpline and they'll actually complete the claim form over the telephone, send it you for signing and then the claims done that way. Or you can do the full claim form. At the end of this month, in just a few days time, the MIG claim form will be shortened - it will be down from 30 pages down to about 10 and it is a vast improvement, so new claimants will find themselves getting a much shorter claim form.

LEWIS: But even with the old claim form Sally's friend can ring this helpline and they will fill the form in for her so she needn't worry about all the detail that she has to plough through?

VAUX: That's right, and if she doesn't want to contact the benefits agency then there are organisations - Age Concern local branches, Citizen's Advice Bureau, local authority welfare rights units, who will help her. And I would also say in fact that although the form maybe 30 pages long, many of the questions won't be relevant to her you know - it asks if she's pregnant for example, so I think that even a competent or adviser like yourself Sally would probably be able to help her.

LEWIS: Yes so maybe you could sit down and help her or maybe wait for the new form in a few days time though of course by waiting you give up benefit so shouldn't do that - that was a bad idea of mine. Gary Vaux is looking daggers at me across the room. Claim immediately because as soon as you claim you start getting the money and the details of that helpline and indeed anything else we mention where we suggest you follow things up will be on our website after the programme and of course with our helpline and I'll give you details of that at the end of the programme. Sally, thank you very much for your call and we've now got Audrey who's ringing from Melton Mowbrey. Audrey, good afternoon, your question?

AUDREY: Good afternoon. My husband who was a clergyman died one week before his retirement in March 2000 and because I had a small pension in my own right I did not apply for the widow's pension until the end of July 2000. I was told that my widow's pension would only be back dated 3 months, and the �1000 one off payment which I didn't even know about was also not to be paid to me because of the 3 month claim problem. Now I - I mean I've contacted my MP and he's contacted Alistair Darling cos he was the person responsible in the House of Commons and we got really nothing back because of this 3 month law. The reason why I'm phoning is that because I think people should be told about this. I was given no information from them- nothing I'd got written down that told me about the 3 month or even about the �1000.

LEWIS: Audrey, thank you very much for your question. Let me put that to Sally West. There are very strict limits for claiming now aren't there Sally?

WEST: Yes and of course 3 months is a very short period of time particularly for benefits when people have been bereaved. You know I think these rules are very unfair and you know Audrey's giving us a very timely warning to other people that it is important to make a claim as soon as possible particularly as you say for something like the kind of one off widow's benefit which is now called bereavement payment.

LEWIS: And that's now �2000?

WEST: Yes, that's right. I mean there are generally 3 months - the rules vary a bit - the advice is to claim to find out as soon as possible. The only kind of exception perhaps where sometimes people maybe able to get a bit more is if there's been a mistake by the benefits agency you've been given wrong information - sometimes you can get a kind of ex gratia payment and it's worth looking into that if you've made enquiries but weren't being told.

LEWIS: But simply not telling people -not going out and telling them of course isn't making the mistake in their terms is it? - so if Audrey hasn't been informed about this and she didn't know about it then she is the wrong side of the rules?

WEST: That's right. I mean a lot of people when they register a death they'll be given the sort of guide about what to do when someone dies which has information, but of course you're not in a position to read everything, take everything in and you know it's a great pity that people do miss out on these benefits that they need.

LEWIS: So I suppose the message to anyone who has suffered a bereavement or may sadly do so in the near future is that claim your money because there could be �2000 that will help with funeral expenses and everything else that happens when somebody dies. But Audrey I think there's no hope that we can hold for you - Carmel wants to have a word?

WALKER: I just wanted to add that it is actually for people who are under pension age - the �2000

LEWIS: Yes in fact it's even slightly more complicated than that isn't it - but generally speaking it's for people under pension age, not for everybody - most people over pension age won't get it. Audrey, thanks very much for your call. Let's go now to Sheffield where John has a question. John?

JOHN: Yes, I'm calling on behalf of my grandmother - she came out of a nursing home at the end of March this year. An application had been made on her behalf for attendance allowance on the 5th March of this year, and as yet this has not been sorted out.

LEWIS: So that's 6 months?

JOHN: 8 months nearly isn't it?

LEWIS: Nearly 8 months. Gary Vaux, what can - what can you do to speed things up?

VAUX: It is difficult because the attendance allowance unit is notoriously slow but 8 months is bad even for their track record. Can I just ask John have you had any correspondence from that whatsoever about your grandmother's claim?

JOHN: As you say the efficiency of Blackpool is rather bad. Several of the family have tried to phone there and all they would get is an answer phone and continuing music - in fact what has happened is that members of the social service directorate in North Yorkshire which is where my grandmother lives have phoned other numbers and they actually sent a letter on the 10th October out lining all the phone calls we've made - I've got that letter in front of me now. And also suggesting that maybe they should not only settle this claim but also compensate her for all the stress that her and other people have had in trying to get this sorted out.

LEWIS: Gary, this is a terrible case isn't it because these are benefits that people need for their daily needs. This lady is going without them - what can John or indeed other people do in these kind of situations?

VAUX: One of the first things I would do in this situation would be to put in a formal complaint to the benefits agency about this - there is a leaflet they produce - it's got the reference number GL22 - it's called comments and complaints. There's a form at the back with a tear off bit. Send that in

LEWIS: And you can get that from a benefits agency office?

VAUX: From any benefits agency

LEWIS: Or down load it from the website presumably?

VAUX: Probably yes. But the - I would also think about involving MPs, and I would press for compensation because they do have compensation payments that they can make when people's claims are delayed and this one sounds atrocious. Unfortunately not untypical but nevertheless atrocious.

LEWIS: But if John and his relatives have complained, if social services have now complained it does sound a bit to me as if getting the MP involved might be the only thing left?

VAUX: I would probably suggest that was the case yes.

LEWIS: Because MPs letters do get a fast track don't they?

VAUX: They have one unit at Blackpool that just deals with MPs complaints.

LEWIS: Which just shows how many they get doesn't it? Well John that's not going to help you immediately but there are some things you can do and let's hope that's sorted out soon for your grandmother's sake. Barbara in Malden you have a question - what is it?

BARBARA: Hello yes. I'm just wondering why do the benefits agency not acknowledge full time retraining courses as a means to gaining full time employment and therefore refuse to support these people in their quest for a job?

LEWIS: Let me ask Carmel Walker - what is the position with people getting training, which his obviously going to help them get back into work and benefit claims?

WALKER: There are certain groups that the benefits agency will help on full time training courses. It's normally younger people, people with disabilities. What sort of course are you talking about Barbara?

BARBARA: This particular course in mind is actually a professional skippers course - so it would actually lead to a global job - it's not just like local job as in a plumber but the qualifications would be there for him to get a job anywhere in the world.

LEWIS: A skipper - you mean

BARBARA: Captain of a boat

LEWIS: Right, right - well that's an interesting career move isn't it?- Carmel?

WALKER: Obviously - is it a young person you're talking about Barbara?

BARBARA: Late 30s

WALKER: Late 30s - unfortunately I think the rules are for claiming benefits as normal - if you're not entitled to benefit on a normal - in a normal case then you won't actually be entitled to benefit when you're training unless it's part of the New Deal or work based learning for adults or that sort of thing. If it's sort of a professional course it's highly unlikely that people will be entitled to benefits apart from possibly housing benefit and council tax benefit.

LEWIS: Cos in the past no-one got benefit unless they could show that they were actively seeking work and then there were these few exceptions Gary Vaux weren't there?

VAUX: That's right and I think that could be the problem. If somebody has gone on a full time course they - the expectation is of course that they're not available for work so that they can't sign on as unemployed because it's seen that they're already filling their week up by being on the training course.

LEWIS: Barbara I fear that the person you're talking about is falling between the cracks of the benefit system and unfair as

BARBARA: Very much so

LEWIS: Unfair as it

BARBARA: We actually have to fund this ourselves now

LEWIS: Unfair as it may seem those are the rules and unfortunately all we can do is tell you what the rules are. But again maybe writing to your MP and complaining would get some action in the future. Let's go now to Stuart in Stroud - your question Stuart?

STUART: Yes hi - I was made redundant last year and I've been trying to set up my own - my own business - small sort of consultancy business but in this year it really hasn't - hasn't taken off very much. So I've been earning money just doing bits and pieces of odd jobs. Now, I've been down to the local Job Centre and asked about some support for this rather than sign on - I've been told that I can't get any support for retraining unless I am signed on as unemployed, and as I'm trying to pick up bits and pieces of work I'm clearly not unemployed. Now what's happened now is I'm actually going in for a hip replacement operation at the end of this week and I'm going to be on incapacity benefit for 3 or perhaps even 6 months. Will I be able to get on to this New Deal for the over 50s at the end of that and get some retraining?

LEWIS: Let me put that to Carmel Walker - Carmel?

WALKER: Yes Stuart you should be able to - the rules are that you have to have been on - certain benefits for 6 months - incapacity benefit is one of those. What you would need to do would be to speak to a personal adviser at the Job Centre after the 6 months. They will help you look for work. Looking at the details here it looks like for those taking up work there's a weekly employment credit of �60 for full time work, �40 for part time work and self employment and you can actually get a training grant of up to �750 so the first step would be after the 6 months or towards the end of the 6 months to go to your local Job Centre and speak to the personal adviser there, but you do have to sign on as sort of at the Job Centre then.

LEWIS: I hope that answers your question Stuart. We must stop there because that's all we have time for. My thanks to Carmel Walker from Enfield Social Services who you just heard, also to Gary Vaux from Hertfordshire County Council and Sally West from Age Concern. If you'd like more details of anything in the programme you can ring the Action line number: 0800 044 044 Calls are free - 0800 044 044 Our website is www.bbc.co.uk/moneybox. Our e-mail address is [email protected]. I'm back on Saturday at noon with MONEY BOX and here again MONEY BOX LIVE 3 o'clock next Monday afternoon.

BACK ANNO: That was Paul Lewis. The producer was Georgina Davies.