Ask Event transcript
| BBC Host | Hello, and welcome to tonight's Live Chat with guests Chambi Chachage, Dr Norrie MacQueen and Moneim El Howeris. Putting your questions to our guests is radio and TV journalist John Milne. |
| BBC Host | Chambi Chachage is from Tanzania. He says his country's President, Benjamin Mkapa, is pro-globalisation and is one of the African leaders held up as a good example by the G8 leaders. Chambi thinks all the debt should be cancelled regardless of whether countries have been badly governed or not. He believes the debt should be cancelled in the first instance. The problems of bad governance and corruption should be dealt with subsequently. Chambi doesn't think aid is the answer. He believes it has caused more trouble than good in Africa. |
| BBC Host | Dr MacQueen has lived and worked in Africa in Mozambique and Papua New Guinea. He says governance and how aid is distributed are huge problems that have to be overcome. Dr MacQueen argues that Europeans tend to think that if we get rid of political dictators, it would go a long way to solving Africa's problems. In Dr MacQueen's opinion, the problems are embedded so deep into the political culture of many countries that this alone would not solve matters. Dr MacQueen thought Saturday night's Hyde Park concert was valid as a musical extravaganza but he thought it would have been more austere. He would have liked to have seen a bigger sense of political purpose. |
| BBC Host | Moneim is from Sudan but has lived in Glasgow with his wife and family for the past 5 years. Previously, he lived in Holland for 12 years. Moneim worked as an agricultural economist in Sudan on a project financed by the International Development Association of the World Bank. Moneim left Sudan to study at the Institute of Social Studies in the Hague. |
| John Milne | We've had lots of emails and questions so far. Let me ask the one question that everyone wants to know the answer to. Will Live 8 concerts make a difference? |
| Norrie | The concerts themselves won't make a difference unless they're a symptom of something and not a cause of it. If they're a symptom of a new awareness of world issues, they're very important. But you're not going to create a revolution with a rock concert. |
| Chambi | To me what matters is how big the difference is. I don't think we can tell how much effect it will have until well after the event. There's not been that much of a difference since Live Aid happened 20 years ago. |
| Moneim | Well, I think it is a milestone. It's the beginning. It will focus the attention of the people of western countries on the issue of poverty and this will help the people to put pressure on the leaders to try to tackle the problem. It's going to be a long process to help the poor people in Africa. |
| John Milne | We have questions in from David Butler in Boston, for instance, who asks if all the work of Live 8 is still enough to change the mind of G8 leaders. Janet Crook in Edinburgh says she was 20 when she watched the original Live Aid. This time it feels as if people are more involved. Patrick in the USA says 'how ridiculous is this event. The rock and roll industry represents crass capitalism and sleaze'. |
| Moneim | I think people have different perceptions but I beleive Geldof is genuine and has noble ideas about making poverty history. Not everything will be 100% right but along the way, as we're walking towards our goals, we can make some adjustments. |
| John Milne | Sir Bob is about to sing. Is he more effective when he sings or when he speaks? |
| Chambi | That's a good one! I think his music will be more powerful than speaking. |
| John Milne | Are people hearing his message? |
| Chambi | I'm not really sure. |
| John Milne | Is there a danger, Norrie that the white wrist bands will be consigned to the bin after the G8 summit? |
| Norrie | Yes, I think there's the danger of that but I think we are in a world where politics are fundamentally different now compared to Live Aid 20 years ago and that gives us the opportunity to do more. Politics are different because people don't engage with political parties the way they did before. Politicians take that as apathy but it's not. People are more concerned with issues. Time will tell whether it makes a difference. |
| John Milne | Let's ask another general question. Peter from the Netherlands wants to know how is it that after all these decades we still call African countries the third world. Why shouldn't be simply be sharing the wealth and banning poverty? |
| Moneim | The west, the G8 countries are not going to give African countries money for whatever they want. They want the money to be spent wisely. There are many civil wars. If you are going to write off the African debts, and you don't change circumstances - bad governance, no democracy, no transparency, corruption - in 20 years time, we will see the same. The G8 has to be generous in tackling this problem, but it has to be combined with putting pressure on the African leaders to see the fruits of writing off the debts and giving aid in the areas of education, health, literacy, infrastructure and so on. |
| Chambi | I don't believe Africa's solution will come from the west. |
| John Milne | Chambi, you are from Tanzania and your President will be at the summit. What do you want him to take back from the G8 summit? |
| Chambi | I do believe in sharing of knowledge. I believe the problems should be solved by Africa. I would like them to really understand the global politics. It's really about who has the power. I see the question of poverty as who has the power. I expect him to go there and learn and understand how the game is played. |
| John Milne | Norrie, as you probably would expect, a lot of the emails are talking about corruption in African states. In general terms, is there a one size fits all solution at the G8? |
| Norrie | No, not for Africa. I think there are enough problems in common in African countries to make people think that a unified approach is appropriate in Africa. THere are huge difference between different countries. Because so many countries share common borders it's inevitable people think of it as a single issue. |
| John Milne | Simon in Zimbabwe is in agreement with the aims of Make Poverty History and G8 but feels they can only be implemented if the African dictators have to answer for their corruption. Your President supports Mugabe, Chambi, how do you feel about that? |
| Chambi | I do agree with the person who asked the question that there are some leaders who have to go. With Mugabe, it's an allegation so it's still being investigated. In my country we're trying our best to get rid of corruption. |
| John Milne | Is Darfur evidence of corruption at central government level in Sudan? |
| Moneim | In one aspect, yes. It is the whole situation of the regime of Sudan. It is a military dictatorship and came into power via a coup d'etat in 1989 and is still there today. . We used to have a war in the south. Now we have war in the east. This regime has managed to destroy the economy of the country through corruption and allocation of capital to luxury expenses and to bribe other political parties' leaders to stay in power. So the Darfur problem is one symptom of corruption and bad governance. |
| John Milne | Norrie, is it the case that we as Westerners describe corruption in different terms than Africans would? |
| Norrie | I think that's a very good point to raise when we talk about corruption. On one hand, it's not corruption as we understand it in the west. On the other hand, it goes a lot deeper than we would like to think. Arround 200 years ago, Britain was a deeply corrupt country with a deeply corrupt government. But it wasn't seen as corruption. It was the way the culture of politics worked. You had people with power who owed their position to people who could be described as clients and who expected some return for their loyalty. And to some extent when we talk about corruption in Africa, it is really just that type of political culture we used to have ourselves. The people with the power are expected to use that power in the interest of their supporters, rather than in the interest of something called 'the state'. The problem is it can be very deep-rooted. |
| Chambi | What do you really mean when you distinguish between the people in power and the interests of society, I'm just trying to see what is the main difference. |
| Norrie | The state is a western idea. And it's a relatively recent idea in historical terms. Western imperialism imposed the state as an idea on Africa. Africans didn't ask to have things called 'states' but that's the price they had to pay for their own independence when the imperialists left. In the West, the state evolved over time. In Africa it was imposed. Therefore, the sense of obligation to something called State often means something different in Africa to what it means in Europe or North America. |
| Chambi | In as much as Africa didn't have modern nation states, I still believe the leaders have a certain obligation to the people of society. When I look at corruption in Africa it's really about people in power doing things in their own interests. When you read about corruption, that's not in the interests of society. I still don't see much difference between western corruption and African. What you might have in the west is you've evolved a certain system to make it easier to hold people accountable. When Mbeki fired his vice president it was big news. We had a similar situation in Tanzania, but nothing happened. I think in the west when there's a big allegation somebody will be held accountable. Maybe you have a better system. |
| John Milne | The Mbeki sacking reminded me of Jack McConnell's visit to Malawi when another government minister was sacked. Do you think Western influences were proving effective? |
| Moneim | I agree with Chambi and I think the whole issue is about democracy, transparency and accountability. Why do people resign in western countries? Look at David Blunkett. He resigned because he did something considered wrong. But in the African countries, whether something is small or big they will continue in power because the regime is undemocratic. They came into power undemocratically. It is deeply rooted in African countries that whenever we encounter corruption nothing happens. Mbeki sacked his vice president because there is democracy in South Africa but in other countries it is the problem of a lack of democracy, transparency and accountability. |
| John Milne | Let me just return to the fundamentals of this argument. We have an email from the anti-capitalist point of view. This is from Kettaz. He asks why bring Africa into the Western world at all? The whole world will never be rich. There will always be poverty when money has power. What do the panel think? |
| Norrie | It's not a question of choice. You can't decide whether you're going to be part of the globalised world or not. When you have money and power concentrated in particular hands, that power is used to dictate global relations. And there's no opt-out clause. |
| John Milne | Another question from Black Flag. Is it nonsensical to talk about making poverty history when global capitalism is in existence? |
| Moneim | It is a hypothetical question, but we can't change the world to be more equal so we do what we can. And to do what we can is to involve the world in a noble campaign to help eradicate poverty. As Norrie has said, we're in a globalised world and this is an obligation of the richest nations to help the poor nations such as the African countries. We can't do that with just ideas. We have to reach an international consensus. The western world has to help Africa, via debt eradication, free trade and reduction of global warming and other means. At the same time, helping the African countries to implement democracy is a major factor in having sustainable development towards the noble goal of the elimination of poverty. |
| John Milne | At this point we should note that it is raining in Edinburgh at the concert. That brings us to the subject of climate change. Iin a few minutes we'll return to that subject. Which is the more important issue - climate change or debt relief? Let us know your views. |
| === SHORT BREAK === | |
| John Milne | We promised to talk about climate change and we have a couple of emails but given that, at the moment, we are watching Neneh Cherry and Youssou N'Dour on the stage at Murrayfield, let me slip in this question from Tony in Dartmouth who says, wouldn't it be better to hold all these events in the poor areas in Africa to really drive home the issue? |
| Chambi | I think we should be driving the issue to the Western leaders. I don't believe people living in rural areas of Africa would come to an event like this. It would have to be something different. There's an organisation which organises films of successful development programmes to be shown in villages. I believe this is more effective for Africans in rural areas. |
| Moneim | Yes, it might. |
| John Milne | Moneim, to some extent that question is related to the priorities we have in the West now. There were very few black African performers in the concert at Hyde Park. What are your views on that? |
| Moneim | The message must be broadcast to the people who can help. Music has no boundaries and if you can find African artists who want to participate, that's good. But the artists who played at Hyde Park were the ones who could draw the biggest audience. At the end of the day, we want to convey a message to the people who can make the dream reality to make poverty history. |
| John Milne | Norrie, just to develop that point we have another question from Jessica Ace who is writing from Hell's Kitchen in New York. The question is' I attended the Philadelphia concert and Icouldn't help but notice that people were not there to make a stand but just there to have a good time, that said how did the concert help the cause?' and nearer to home, Morag in Edinburgh says 'The Live 8 concert on Saturday overshadowed the large protest held in Edinburgh where 200k people showed up not for a free concert but to make their point.' Both people are saying our priorities are wrong and it may be relatively flippant in terms of people dying in Africa, does it mean that across the board our western culture has its priorities wrong? |
| Norrie | These are good questions. And there are legitimate issues around the Hyde Park concert. And perhaps even more the Philadelphia one. But the point perhaps is not that the Hyde Park and the other events distracted attention from the Edinburgh march, but that everything on that day combined into one huge event which served an important political purpose in mobilising people who were already committed to the poverty agenda and in raising the consciousness of those whose main interest was in the music. |
| John Milne | Which brings us again back to the question of priorities facing the G8 leaders at Gleneagles. Question from Katrina says simply, 'Will tackling climate change have more impact on Africa than making poverty history?' and a question from Scotticub talking about climate 'I think all the other countries around the globe need to be a bit more firm with the USA seeing as they seem to be the biggest offenders'. Moneim, let me put that question to you as your background is as an agricultural economist. How do you see it? |
| Moneim | It is a real problem and unless the Western leaders of the G8 reach a consensus on this issue it's not going to be solved in the near future. George Bush is against it and he's not going to give any concessions on that matter. Tony Blair was asked how he was going to convince Bush to change his mind. He wants to convince the other G8 leaders to tackle the problem in the long run. It's a difficult issue and a lot of work needs to be done. We can't impose our ideas on others and we can't wait for the situation to deteriorate. It is up to all of the G8 countries to start discussing how to tackle the problem. In Africa, the rainy season is happening at the wrong time because of badly planned activities. For example, deforestation. It has to be solved in a consensus between the developed and developing world. |
| John Milne | Chambi, from your point of view, what would be more effective - a properly conducted system of debt relief, or assistance with the environmental problems in your country? |
| Chambi | At the moment, I would prefer to go for debt relief. As much as we do have environmental problems, industrialisation causes pollution for example, but economic growth is more important as far as I'm concerned. |
| John Milne | But if you have no natural resources, you have nothing to sell. |
| Chambi | The kind of environmental issues the G8 is discussing are not relevant to ordinary Tanzanians. They are more concerned with having food to eat than environmental issues. |
| John Milne | Norrei, let me put a question from Honey to you . 'Can research pinpoint all the issues associated with climate change? Please outline what these issues are, educate me!' |
| Norrie | Thank you for the easy question! I can't give you a scientific answer on the state of climate change to date. But, although I can't tell you how this computer works, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Whatever is said at Gleneagles about climate change and whatever is said especially by President Bush, it is happening and potentially, it will dwarf each and every other issue that the summit is addressing. It is an issue that truly unites Africa and all of the G8 nations and quite simply cannot be left for a future solution. |
| John Milne | So let me ask Moneim in the context that Norrie has just outlined, and assuming that some lip service at the very least has been paid to climate change where does debt cancellation come in for a country like Sudan in the list of priorities, it has been said that there is a danger that countries who have there debt cancelled are simply in a position to run up more unmanageable debt. Do you see that as a danger? |
| Moneim | Yes, I agree. Debt cancellation is not the first priority but it is in the first three in the list of priorities. As I have said before, debt cancellation has to be combined with other measures. Such as how to manage the future baggage of a country like Sudan. If we leave debts to the new government in Sudan, we will end up with the same crisis as we have had in the past. Debt cancellation, global warming, democracy and accountability and transparency are the pillars of a better future. We can't take one and leave the others. They all have to be done at the same time. |
| John Milne | Chambi, from your point of view, what would be the priorities of Tanzania? You have already spoken about climate control and debt relief, you are in the first tranche of countries, if I remember correctly, that will have their debt written off. What do you do next, do you borrow again? |
| Chambi | I know that Africa has lost so much money repaying debts in recent years. We shouldn't even be debating this. Most of the debts were acquired during the cold war period by bad leaders, so every country's debt should be cancelled regardless. Personally, I don't believe in loans as a method to tackle poverty. We have enough natural resources and human capital to solve poverty. We shouldn't keep globalising ourselves in the way we have been. It hasn't worked so far so we shouldn't continue to go down this road. |
| John Milne | This will be a final question to wrap up the chat. Norrie, let me ask you first of al.l The US Marshall Plan arose perhaps a generation after it was actually needed in terms of Europe's wartime experiences.Iis there a single action that you could see emerge from Gleneagles that might have the potential in this generation to start resolving Africa's problems in particular and global poverty in general? |
| Norrie | The Marshall Plan is often used as a parallel for what the G8 may do for Africa but it's not a very good one because the Marshall Plan was really about putting things back to how they had been 10 years before. The challenges today are much greater and it would be unrealistic to expect one meeting of leaders in a Scottish hotel to come up with a solution to them. The best that we can hope for is a beginning and that beginning must, whether we like it or not, involve an agreement among all 8 countries. This might not be what you or I would wish for but it may be the best that we can get, so what we should look for from G8 is something that will work rather than something that is ideal but which has no chance of working in the real world. |
| John Milne | Chambi, do you see the possibility of one major decision turning the tide? |
| Chambi | I'm a bit sceptical. There has been so much western intervention in Africa. It has done more damage than help. What we really need is for the Western countries to listen to African people at a grass roots level. |
| Chambi | Also, nobody has listened to African intellectuals. We talk and nobody listens. When it starts to backfire, then they listen to us. |
| John Milne | Moneim, you have the honour or perhaps the curse of the final answer. Do you see anything emerging from the G8 deliberations that might just make a difference to a country like Sudan? |
| Moneim | Contrary to what Chambi says, I am optimistic. I am not expecting a Marshall Plan for Africa. I am not expecting a miracle to happen, but I am hoping the G8 leaders will listen to the mass. All those people marching in Edinburgh are so far from Africa. I think the mass of people in Europe have learned the lesson before their leaders and they're dictating to them what to do next. The leaders of the G8 have to listen and have to act and that's what makes me optimistic. |
| John Milne | Thank you very much, let's hope some of your questions will be answered as well at Gleneagles. We've been on air now for 90 minutes. How many African babies have died? |
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