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| THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. TX: 04.01.07 - Disability Minister PRESENTER: LIZ BARCLAY AND CAROLYN ATKINSON BARCLAY Now Anne Mcguire has been MP for Stirling since 1997, before that she was Deputy Director of the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations and has also trained as a teacher. She's now the government's disability minister. Our disability reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, went to meet Mrs Mcguire, to talk about government priorities for the coming years. Carolyn started by asking about one of the most controversial matters in her in-tray right now, the Welfare Reform Bill, which is currently going through Parliament. Many disability campaigners fear that it may lead to cuts in the benefits of people who are deemed to be showing little appetite for finding employment. There's even talk that people may be forced to take certain medication or undergo certain treatment or lose their entitlement to certain welfare benefits. This is what comedienne Liz Carr had to say about the proposals on You and Yours on Tuesday. CARR There was a programme on BBC 2 this autumn called Beyond Boundaries. Eleven disabled people with various conditions trekked across Africa to show that they can push beyond their own boundaries. Well that's all very well but for some of us getting washed, dressed, out the house in the morning is an expedition as challenging as crossing four ecosystems and having a film crew follow your every move. I watched Beyond Boundaries and I reckon that when the survivors returned to the UK waiting for them at Gatwick were the Benefits Agency - We'll have your benefit book, your blue badge and your £10 Christmas bonus because if you can trek across Africa then you don't need our help. Maybe Beyond Boundaries was a creative attempt by the government to use reality TV as a way of implementing welfare reform, get disabled people off benefits and on to cross continent expeditions instead. Yeah, we should be so lucky. Instead of looking to entertainment for its inspiration the impending welfare reform looks to the poor laws of yesteryear as it classifies us as either deserving or undeserving cripples. The former is assessed as incapable of work because they're disabled and the latter is assessed as capable of work despite being disabled? BARCLAY Liz Carr. So what does Anne Mcguire think of the controversy? MCGUIRE Certainly we have had a lot of discussion, consultation, with disability groups before we put pen to paper in terms of our Welfare Reform Bill. And yes there are maybe some concerns about whether or not people are going to be forced into jobs, well that's just not going to happen. And to be frank with you 80% of the people who are on incapacity benefits tell us that their ambition is actually to get back into work. ATKINSON Minister, a lot of people would say though that is just rhetoric, you know they're worried that they're going to be forced to have certain treatments because then that will ... MCGUIRE That's not true. ATKINSON ... get them through. MCGUIRE No, that's not true. And I have to say that I've spent some time with some of the disability lobby fairly recently going through some of those misconceptions, total misconceptions, about what this Welfare Reform Bill is doing. It's not about forcing people into medical treatment, it's not about forcing people into jobs. ATKINSON They're concerned that there's sort of no detail in there, it's so broadly written that it's open to interpretation. MCGUIRE Well of course the bill is written in broad terms but at the same time as we published the bill we also published the draft regulations. Legislation is normally or often implemented by way of regulations linked to the primary act itself. ATKINSON Can you clear up one other thing then - the concern that charities or voluntary bodies are going to be involved in deciding the level of people's benefits and whether people get a benefit or not? MCGUIRE We have - charities - the voluntary organisations who may be bidding for the new contracts I think have quite clearly said to us that they wouldn't want to be involved in sanctions and that's a responsibility retained by Job Centre Plus. But the sanction issue in some ways is a bit of a red herring drawn across this ... ATKINSON But it worries people doesn't it. MCGUIRE ... no, no... ATKINSON They need to know that somebody who knows what they're talking about is going to decide their level of benefit. MCGUIRE Of course, of course but let me reassure your listeners that in our Pathways to Work areas you know is the basis on which we're basing the practice in our welfare reform. We have seen that sanctions have been used very, very rarely because we are not wanting to go down the route of sanctions. We want to work with people to build in the support that they need and that they want to move into employment. So if you look at the sanctions regime, the sanctions regime was rarely used in our Pathways to Work area. Of course it's a power that is there but it has been rarely used because our basis of our Welfare Reform Bill is to work with people, not to work against them. ATKINSON Why then is there no mention or obligation on employers, because this is all to do with persuading employers that actually employing a person with a disability is a good idea? MCGUIRE Well of course employers are already covered by discrimination legislation which ... ATKINSON But in reality if they have a person with a disability and a person without a disability and everything else is equal you know and I know and the person with the disability knows the chances are the person without the disability is going to get the job. MCGUIRE No, that's a misunderstanding of the situation. The law quite clearly states if you have two people, one of whom is disabled and who can do the job with the reasonable adjustments that person should be treated equally under the law. ATKINSON They should be treated equally but there have been lots of studies that show that just doesn't happen in reality. MCGUIRE Well actually I think I need to ask you to give me chapter and verse on the studies. ATKINSON If I can give the example: Leonard Cheshire in Scotland sent out a batch of CVs from people with a disability and people without a disability and the ones without got the interviews. MCGUIRE Well as Leonard Cheshire will know and I think they are right to highlight these instances I don't have any truck for any employer who behaves in that way but there is a recourse under law for situations like that and that's where the Disability Rights Commission have been very powerful in some of the cases that they have taken and test cases that they have taken. Of course there are still areas that we have to tackle and of course we still have to build up the confidence of employers in recruiting disabled people. BARCLAY Minister for disabled people Anne McGuire, talking to Carolyn Atkinson. And we'll be hearing more of that interview in just a moment. Now back to that interview with Anne McGuire, minister for disability. Having asked Mrs McGuire about worries concerning the Welfare Reform Bill our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, turned to more general matters - poverty among disabled people and plans to amalgamate the Disability Rights Commission - DRC - into one large body covering the whole area of discrimination on the grounds of race and gender, as well as disability. Head of the DRC, Bert Massey, has expressed some concern about the loss of a specialist disability organisation. But Carolyn began on the question of maltreatment of disabled people in hospitals, care homes and other institutions, were there any proposals to deal with this matter? MCGUIRE Can I be very frank with you? I do not make a public announcement at conferences and seminars without recognising the real disadvantage that disabled people still face, whether that be in educational qualifications and access to education, whether it be in access to health services, you know it is a disgrace that we still have a situation that many disabled people may die, not because of their disability but because of other health related issues which are not connected with their disability because of access to appropriate healthcare. And of course there is absolutely no excuse, no excuse at all, for ill treating any person and certainly any disabled person. Obviously the Department of Health has the lead responsibility on these issues but they have reacted quickly and swiftly where there has been any instance of mistreatment and have been very vocal in ensuring that this is tackled at the level at which it needs to be tackled. ATKINSON And do you think the Disability Discrimination Act, for example, can be used more thoroughly and accurately to perhaps tackle some of these areas - I'm talking about, say, NHS care, you talked about health discrimination where people are dying of other things? MCGUIRE Well obviously the Disability Equality Duty, which we have brought into place, will mean that public authorities will have to look at how they engage with disabled people in the provision of services in the development of their policies. And the Disability Rights Commission are currently scrutinising the disability equality schemes that have come through from round about 44,000 public authorities across Britain. It is a massive change in terms of identifying the actions that are going to be taken and it will be a massive change in culture for some organisations. ATKINSON Just while we're on the subject of the Disability Rights Commission. Obviously that's coming to an end. Bert Massey is worried that disability is the poor relation when it comes to diversity and that disability is going to sort of miss out when the new overall body comes in. MCGUIRE I'm delighted that Bert Massey is going to be one of the transitional commissioners on the new commission for equality and human rights. We were very clear in the legislation that we wanted to establish a disability committee as part of the new commission, to deal with some of the concerns that disabled people had and that the DRC had articulated. And I've already spoken with Trevor Phillips, the Chairman of the new commission, to ensure that he is well aware that disability issues have to be seen as very much part of the mainstream of the business of the new commission. ATKINSON On the issue of poverty, the DRC have done their own survey very recently saying that 30% of disabled adults are living in poverty, when you compare that with 15% of non-disabled adults living in poverty. Money isn't everything but it certainly helps, doesn't it, how are you going to tackle that huge problem? MCGUIRE Often for disabled people work is the way out of poverty but the barriers to work for disabled people have been high and that's why in our Welfare Reform Bill we are seriously engaging with disabled people to lower those barriers and get rid of them altogether. And obviously we keep our benefits system under review, we have looked at ways in which we can finesse our benefit system to encourage people if they want to move into even part time employment. And of course we should not underestimate the impact that Disability Living Allowance makes in the lives of individual adults. It can mean an additional benefit income of up to £7,000 a year. But we are not complacent about the issues of poverty and we're certainly not complacent about the issues of child poverty amongst disabled children or children in families where there's a disabled parent. ATKINSON And what have you still to achieve? MCGUIRE I think we still have to achieve the big cultural change out there in the wider society. We have robust legislation in place, we've got the Disability Equality Duty, we've got the public sector now thinking about how they will engage with disabled people. We are starting to see employers recognising that getting the best person for the job is the business case often for employing a disabled person but we still have a long way to go. And over the next year or so I certainly want to see us challenging society in the big way, getting society in general to look at disabled people for what they can do and not for what they cannot do. BARCLAY The minister for disability, Anne McGuire, talking to Carolyn Atkinson. TX: 04.01.07 - Disability Minister PRESENTER: LIZ BARCLAY AND CAROLYN ATKINSON BARCLAY Now Anne Mcguire has been MP for Stirling since 1997, before that she was Deputy Director of the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations and has also trained as a teacher. She's now the government's disability minister. Our disability reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, went to meet Mrs Mcguire, to talk about government priorities for the coming years. Carolyn started by asking about one of the most controversial matters in her in-tray right now, the Welfare Reform Bill, which is currently going through Parliament. Many disability campaigners fear that it may lead to cuts in the benefits of people who are deemed to be showing little appetite for finding employment. There's even talk that people may be forced to take certain medication or undergo certain treatment or lose their entitlement to certain welfare benefits. This is what comedienne Liz Carr had to say about the proposals on You and Yours on Tuesday. CARR There was a programme on BBC 2 this autumn called Beyond Boundaries. Eleven disabled people with various conditions trekked across Africa to show that they can push beyond their own boundaries. Well that's all very well but for some of us getting washed, dressed, out the house in the morning is an expedition as challenging as crossing four ecosystems and having a film crew follow your every move. I watched Beyond Boundaries and I reckon that when the survivors returned to the UK waiting for them at Gatwick were the Benefits Agency - We'll have your benefit book, your blue badge and your £10 Christmas bonus because if you can trek across Africa then you don't need our help. Maybe Beyond Boundaries was a creative attempt by the government to use reality TV as a way of implementing welfare reform, get disabled people off benefits and on to cross continent expeditions instead. Yeah, we should be so lucky. Instead of looking to entertainment for its inspiration the impending welfare reform looks to the poor laws of yesteryear as it classifies us as either deserving or undeserving cripples. The former is assessed as incapable of work because they're disabled and the latter is assessed as capable of work despite being disabled? BARCLAY Liz Carr. So what does Anne Mcguire think of the controversy? MCGUIRE Certainly we have had a lot of discussion, consultation, with disability groups before we put pen to paper in terms of our Welfare Reform Bill. And yes there are maybe some concerns about whether or not people are going to be forced into jobs, well that's just not going to happen. And to be frank with you 80% of the people who are on incapacity benefits tell us that their ambition is actually to get back into work. ATKINSON Minister, a lot of people would say though that is just rhetoric, you know they're worried that they're going to be forced to have certain treatments because then that will ... MCGUIRE That's not true. ATKINSON ... get them through. MCGUIRE No, that's not true. And I have to say that I've spent some time with some of the disability lobby fairly recently going through some of those misconceptions, total misconceptions, about what this Welfare Reform Bill is doing. It's not about forcing people into medical treatment, it's not about forcing people into jobs. ATKINSON They're concerned that there's sort of no detail in there, it's so broadly written that it's open to interpretation. MCGUIRE Well of course the bill is written in broad terms but at the same time as we published the bill we also published the draft regulations. Legislation is normally or often implemented by way of regulations linked to the primary act itself. ATKINSON Can you clear up one other thing then - the concern that charities or voluntary bodies are going to be involved in deciding the level of people's benefits and whether people get a benefit or not? MCGUIRE We have - charities - the voluntary organisations who may be bidding for the new contracts I think have quite clearly said to us that they wouldn't want to be involved in sanctions and that's a responsibility retained by Job Centre Plus. But the sanction issue in some ways is a bit of a red herring drawn across this ... ATKINSON But it worries people doesn't it. MCGUIRE ... no, no... ATKINSON They need to know that somebody who knows what they're talking about is going to decide their level of benefit. MCGUIRE Of course, of course but let me reassure your listeners that in our Pathways to Work areas you know is the basis on which we're basing the practice in our welfare reform. We have seen that sanctions have been used very, very rarely because we are not wanting to go down the route of sanctions. We want to work with people to build in the support that they need and that they want to move into employment. So if you look at the sanctions regime, the sanctions regime was rarely used in our Pathways to Work area. Of course it's a power that is there but it has been rarely used because our basis of our Welfare Reform Bill is to work with people, not to work against them. ATKINSON Why then is there no mention or obligation on employers, because this is all to do with persuading employers that actually employing a person with a disability is a good idea? MCGUIRE Well of course employers are already covered by discrimination legislation which ... ATKINSON But in reality if they have a person with a disability and a person without a disability and everything else is equal you know and I know and the person with the disability knows the chances are the person without the disability is going to get the job. MCGUIRE No, that's a misunderstanding of the situation. The law quite clearly states if you have two people, one of whom is disabled and who can do the job with the reasonable adjustments that person should be treated equally under the law. ATKINSON They should be treated equally but there have been lots of studies that show that just doesn't happen in reality. MCGUIRE Well actually I think I need to ask you to give me chapter and verse on the studies. ATKINSON If I can give the example: Leonard Cheshire in Scotland sent out a batch of CVs from people with a disability and people without a disability and the ones without got the interviews. MCGUIRE Well as Leonard Cheshire will know and I think they are right to highlight these instances I don't have any truck for any employer who behaves in that way but there is a recourse under law for situations like that and that's where the Disability Rights Commission have been very powerful in some of the cases that they have taken and test cases that they have taken. Of course there are still areas that we have to tackle and of course we still have to build up the confidence of employers in recruiting disabled people. BARCLAY Minister for disabled people Anne McGuire, talking to Carolyn Atkinson. And we'll be hearing more of that interview in just a moment. Now back to that interview with Anne McGuire, minister for disability. Having asked Mrs McGuire about worries concerning the Welfare Reform Bill our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, turned to more general matters - poverty among disabled people and plans to amalgamate the Disability Rights Commission - DRC - into one large body covering the whole area of discrimination on the grounds of race and gender, as well as disability. Head of the DRC, Bert Massey, has expressed some concern about the loss of a specialist disability organisation. But Carolyn began on the question of maltreatment of disabled people in hospitals, care homes and other institutions, were there any proposals to deal with this matter? MCGUIRE Can I be very frank with you? I do not make a public announcement at conferences and seminars without recognising the real disadvantage that disabled people still face, whether that be in educational qualifications and access to education, whether it be in access to health services, you know it is a disgrace that we still have a situation that many disabled people may die, not because of their disability but because of other health related issues which are not connected with their disability because of access to appropriate healthcare. And of course there is absolutely no excuse, no excuse at all, for ill treating any person and certainly any disabled person. Obviously the Department of Health has the lead responsibility on these issues but they have reacted quickly and swiftly where there has been any instance of mistreatment and have been very vocal in ensuring that this is tackled at the level at which it needs to be tackled. ATKINSON And do you think the Disability Discrimination Act, for example, can be used more thoroughly and accurately to perhaps tackle some of these areas - I'm talking about, say, NHS care, you talked about health discrimination where people are dying of other things? MCGUIRE Well obviously the Disability Equality Duty, which we have brought into place, will mean that public authorities will have to look at how they engage with disabled people in the provision of services in the development of their policies. And the Disability Rights Commission are currently scrutinising the disability equality schemes that have come through from round about 44,000 public authorities across Britain. It is a massive change in terms of identifying the actions that are going to be taken and it will be a massive change in culture for some organisations. ATKINSON Just while we're on the subject of the Disability Rights Commission. Obviously that's coming to an end. Bert Massey is worried that disability is the poor relation when it comes to diversity and that disability is going to sort of miss out when the new overall body comes in. MCGUIRE I'm delighted that Bert Massey is going to be one of the transitional commissioners on the new commission for equality and human rights. We were very clear in the legislation that we wanted to establish a disability committee as part of the new commission, to deal with some of the concerns that disabled people had and that the DRC had articulated. And I've already spoken with Trevor Phillips, the Chairman of the new commission, to ensure that he is well aware that disability issues have to be seen as very much part of the mainstream of the business of the new commission. ATKINSON On the issue of poverty, the DRC have done their own survey very recently saying that 30% of disabled adults are living in poverty, when you compare that with 15% of non-disabled adults living in poverty. Money isn't everything but it certainly helps, doesn't it, how are you going to tackle that huge problem? MCGUIRE Often for disabled people work is the way out of poverty but the barriers to work for disabled people have been high and that's why in our Welfare Reform Bill we are seriously engaging with disabled people to lower those barriers and get rid of them altogether. And obviously we keep our benefits system under review, we have looked at ways in which we can finesse our benefit system to encourage people if they want to move into even part time employment. And of course we should not underestimate the impact that Disability Living Allowance makes in the lives of individual adults. It can mean an additional benefit income of up to £7,000 a year. But we are not complacent about the issues of poverty and we're certainly not complacent about the issues of child poverty amongst disabled children or children in families where there's a disabled parent. ATKINSON And what have you still to achieve? MCGUIRE I think we still have to achieve the big cultural change out there in the wider society. We have robust legislation in place, we've got the Disability Equality Duty, we've got the public sector now thinking about how they will engage with disabled people. We are starting to see employers recognising that getting the best person for the job is the business case often for employing a disabled person but we still have a long way to go. And over the next year or so I certainly want to see us challenging society in the big way, getting society in general to look at disabled people for what they can do and not for what they cannot do. BARCLAY The minister for disability, Anne McGuire, talking to Carolyn Atkinson. Back to the You and Yours homepage The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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