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| TX: 27.11.06 - Disability Equality Duty PRESENTER: PETER WHITE |
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| Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. WAITE Now's here Peter with news of an important change in the law for people with a disability, it comes into force next week. WHITE If you keep thinking that you heard the Disability Discrimination Act is coming into force well you're quite right, it's been introduced in instalments over the past 11 years and next week its final bit comes into force. This latest part of the law is different though from the rest in that it's not about specific measures, like providing ramps or preventing discrimination over jobs or providing fair service, it's a duty to have planned for disability in advance and to see that disabled people aren't disadvantaged in any aspect of your operation. It's called the Disability Equality Duty and Marie Pye is responsible for monitoring its introduction and its enforcement for the Disability Rights Commission. Marie, tell us a bit more about how it actually works. PYE Is a real change for lots of those public organisations out there across the country, whether it's a local council, whether it's a hospital, a college or even a government department, they've suddenly got to start taking disability equality seriously. And rather than just say oh we've got a disabled person who needs something to be changed, they've actually got to look at the way they operate and the way they design their policies and the way they design their services. WHITE So do they actually have to produce something? PYE They have to produce a disability equality scheme but that's just like a project plan that these people do all the time. What that needs to include though is some really, really practical actions and sensible things they're going to do, across the board, to make sure that things for disabled people get better. WHITE So who has to do it and who doesn't? PYE This is everybody from your local council, your school, university, college, hospital and government departments - they've all got to produce one of these disability equality schemes. The only people who get off the hook are the little guys - maybe the parish council - but they don't have to do a scheme but they've still got to take disability equality a bit more seriously. WHITE But it doesn't cover private companies does it? PYE It doesn't cover private companies, so it isn't going to affect the high street or your local bank but it is going to affect your local swimming pool or your local library. WHITE Who's doing well, who isn't? PYE We certainly know that a lot of local councils have put an awful lot of effort into this, we've seen a lot of good schemes coming out of local councils and universities and some schools and some government departments. One local council are looking at the way they - the way they dish out council housing and they're saying well is this really fair to disabled people, let's have a good look at the way we do this. Good sensible stuff. Bit more concerned about some other areas like the health sector. WHITE Marie Pye, thanks very much for the time being but stay with us because it's health that's concerning the Norfolk Coalition of Disabled People, the largest disability organisation in the county. Its vice president Alan MacKim explained why they were worried about what was and what wasn't happening locally. MACKIM We did the rounds of the health trusts in July to find out what they had done and the answer was quite simply nothing. A succession of chief executives and health trust chairmen seemed to be totally unaware of the requirements of the 2005 Disability Discrimination Act and crucially that it applied to them. Once the seriousness of the situation had sunk in some emergency planning started to emerge but they attempted to complete in a matter of something what eight weeks or so a process that has taken the local authorities, with all their resources, nine months. WHITE Marie, how typical is that do you think? PYE I think there have been problems in some areas and as I say we are quite worried about the health sector because also there's so many opportunities within health for this new duty to really make a difference. We all know disabled people are much more likely to smoke, they're much more likely to have health problems but at the other end of it they're doing much worse in our health service. So we'd love to see some health authorities say look at their screening programme and say are we really reaching disabled people here and if not how could we use this new duty to make a difference? WHITE We have also heard from the Healthcare Commission, which is responsible for overseeing what the health services are doing. HEALTHCARE COMMISSION STATEMENT We do not yet have information on how prepared the healthcare sector is to meet the requirements of the Disability Equality Duty. However, our experience around the race equality public sector duty suggests that some health services have been slow to comply with equality legislation. We plan to look at how trusts are meeting DED requirements in their core standard declarations next year. That's interesting because as you've already mentioned local authorities are covered by this. We've also been talking to the diversity advisor of the Local Government Association, he says that local authorities have been contacting him to make sure they're putting their policies together properly but with his experience too of the Race Equality Duty, that came in, in 2002, he said there were 10% of local authorities who still hadn't published their policies six months after the statutory date. So are you expecting the same kind of thing, Marie, that they're not - actually a lot of them aren't ready? PYE We think there will be some people who aren't ready but we are reasonably confident that certainly within local government most of the local councils have got their schemes ready and we have seen some very good examples. But I can assure you on the 5th December all of a sudden that's what we'll be doing here at the Disability Rights Commission 24/7, we are going to be going over with a fine tooth comb the schemes of key players in the public sector, whether they're a government department or whether they're a university or whether they're a strategic health authority, we'll be getting hold of a copy of their scheme and going over it. And if we don't think it's up to it they'll be hearing from us. WHITE And what are the punishments, does enforcement include fines or court action? PYE The Disability Rights Commission can issue a compliance notice, which is a very, very serious issue and if they don't meet that then we can take further action through the courts. WHITE Most disability organisations have broadly welcomed the Disability Equality Duty. One of the largest, Leonard Cheshire, is no exception, although its head of policy - John Knight - does worry that there could be some unforeseen consequences of the duty, in particular he's concerned about the possible cutting back on what's known as Access to Work. This is a central pot of money that employers can apply for to fund assistance for workers with disabilities, such as help with specialist equipment or transport. KNIGHT The Access to Work scheme is a very valuable fund which has helped nearly a quarter of a million disabled people in the last three years obtain and stay in employment. I'm one of them - I wouldn't be giving this interview today without Access to Work Peter. It's a very valuable fund and it's been estimated that over £1 of Access to Work money in fact generates £1.48 worth of revenue for the Exchequer. WHITE So why should the Disability Equality Duty put that at risk? KNIGHT Because the government is using the Disability Equality Duty as a rationale to say that central government - and they've indicated that in time this may extend to wider public bodies - that they themselves must take on this responsibility as part of the public duty for paying for reasonable adjustments. Now that worries me because if I just give you an example: The Department for Work and Pensions stopped using Access to Work in 2003, now since 2003 there are 1,200 fewer disabled people in the employment of the Department of Work and Pensions, why is that - is that because disabled people can't get access to the necessary monies? WHITE Well we put John Knight's point to the Department of Work and Pensions, this is part of the statement we received from the office of the minister for disabled people Anne McGuire. DEPARTMENT OF WORK AND PENSIONS STATEMENT From the 1st October 2006 each government department is now responsible for funding Access to Work directly and savings to the Access to Work budget, resulting from this change, are kept within the programme. As a result Job Centre Plus is able to target support towards disabled people working for smaller employers who are less able than large employers to make the adjustments disabled staff need. It is not correct to say that the DWP employs 1,200 fewer disabled people than we did in 2003 when we took responsibility for funding the workplace adjustments. As part of our modernisation programme we have reduced overall staff numbers by over 17,500, in fact the proportion of staff recorded as being disabled has risen from 5% in 2003 to 5.3% in 2006. So Marie will you be monitoring for unforeseen consequences? PYE Obviously when we're looking at schemes and we're looking at how public authorities are doing we will keep an eye out for any unintended consequences but we don't think we're going to see very many of them. Disabled people should notice that the way their local council delivers their services, the way the university recruits new students, the way their hospital recruits new staff should improve for disabled people. The young person in school who's always had to carry their bag around even though they've got arthritis should suddenly notice that the school have changed their mind and produced lockers. Practical stuff, on the ground. WHITE We'll be watching that on You and Yours, as I'm sure you will be. Marie Pye thank you very much. ROBINSON Peter on the Disability Equality Duty legislation which comes into force next week. WAITE Now's here Peter with news of an important change in the law for people with a disability, it comes into force next week. WHITE If you keep thinking that you heard the Disability Discrimination Act is coming into force well you're quite right, it's been introduced in instalments over the past 11 years and next week its final bit comes into force. This latest part of the law is different though from the rest in that it's not about specific measures, like providing ramps or preventing discrimination over jobs or providing fair service, it's a duty to have planned for disability in advance and to see that disabled people aren't disadvantaged in any aspect of your operation. It's called the Disability Equality Duty and Marie Pye is responsible for monitoring its introduction and its enforcement for the Disability Rights Commission. Marie, tell us a bit more about how it actually works. PYE Is a real change for lots of those public organisations out there across the country, whether it's a local council, whether it's a hospital, a college or even a government department, they've suddenly got to start taking disability equality seriously. And rather than just say oh we've got a disabled person who needs something to be changed, they've actually got to look at the way they operate and the way they design their policies and the way they design their services. WHITE So do they actually have to produce something? PYE They have to produce a disability equality scheme but that's just like a project plan that these people do all the time. What that needs to include though is some really, really practical actions and sensible things they're going to do, across the board, to make sure that things for disabled people get better. WHITE So who has to do it and who doesn't? PYE This is everybody from your local council, your school, university, college, hospital and government departments - they've all got to produce one of these disability equality schemes. The only people who get off the hook are the little guys - maybe the parish council - but they don't have to do a scheme but they've still got to take disability equality a bit more seriously. WHITE But it doesn't cover private companies does it? PYE It doesn't cover private companies, so it isn't going to affect the high street or your local bank but it is going to affect your local swimming pool or your local library. WHITE Who's doing well, who isn't? PYE We certainly know that a lot of local councils have put an awful lot of effort into this, we've seen a lot of good schemes coming out of local councils and universities and some schools and some government departments. One local council are looking at the way they - the way they dish out council housing and they're saying well is this really fair to disabled people, let's have a good look at the way we do this. Good sensible stuff. Bit more concerned about some other areas like the health sector. WHITE Marie Pye, thanks very much for the time being but stay with us because it's health that's concerning the Norfolk Coalition of Disabled People, the largest disability organisation in the county. Its vice president Alan MacKim explained why they were worried about what was and what wasn't happening locally. MACKIM We did the rounds of the health trusts in July to find out what they had done and the answer was quite simply nothing. A succession of chief executives and health trust chairmen seemed to be totally unaware of the requirements of the 2005 Disability Discrimination Act and crucially that it applied to them. Once the seriousness of the situation had sunk in some emergency planning started to emerge but they attempted to complete in a matter of something what eight weeks or so a process that has taken the local authorities, with all their resources, nine months. WHITE Marie, how typical is that do you think? PYE I think there have been problems in some areas and as I say we are quite worried about the health sector because also there's so many opportunities within health for this new duty to really make a difference. We all know disabled people are much more likely to smoke, they're much more likely to have health problems but at the other end of it they're doing much worse in our health service. So we'd love to see some health authorities say look at their screening programme and say are we really reaching disabled people here and if not how could we use this new duty to make a difference? WHITE We have also heard from the Healthcare Commission, which is responsible for overseeing what the health services are doing. HEALTHCARE COMMISSION STATEMENT We do not yet have information on how prepared the healthcare sector is to meet the requirements of the Disability Equality Duty. However, our experience around the race equality public sector duty suggests that some health services have been slow to comply with equality legislation. We plan to look at how trusts are meeting DED requirements in their core standard declarations next year. That's interesting because as you've already mentioned local authorities are covered by this. We've also been talking to the diversity advisor of the Local Government Association, he says that local authorities have been contacting him to make sure they're putting their policies together properly but with his experience too of the Race Equality Duty, that came in, in 2002, he said there were 10% of local authorities who still hadn't published their policies six months after the statutory date. So are you expecting the same kind of thing, Marie, that they're not - actually a lot of them aren't ready? PYE We think there will be some people who aren't ready but we are reasonably confident that certainly within local government most of the local councils have got their schemes ready and we have seen some very good examples. But I can assure you on the 5th December all of a sudden that's what we'll be doing here at the Disability Rights Commission 24/7, we are going to be going over with a fine tooth comb the schemes of key players in the public sector, whether they're a government department or whether they're a university or whether they're a strategic health authority, we'll be getting hold of a copy of their scheme and going over it. And if we don't think it's up to it they'll be hearing from us. WHITE And what are the punishments, does enforcement include fines or court action? PYE The Disability Rights Commission can issue a compliance notice, which is a very, very serious issue and if they don't meet that then we can take further action through the courts. WHITE Most disability organisations have broadly welcomed the Disability Equality Duty. One of the largest, Leonard Cheshire, is no exception, although its head of policy - John Knight - does worry that there could be some unforeseen consequences of the duty, in particular he's concerned about the possible cutting back on what's known as Access to Work. This is a central pot of money that employers can apply for to fund assistance for workers with disabilities, such as help with specialist equipment or transport. KNIGHT The Access to Work scheme is a very valuable fund which has helped nearly a quarter of a million disabled people in the last three years obtain and stay in employment. I'm one of them - I wouldn't be giving this interview today without Access to Work Peter. It's a very valuable fund and it's been estimated that over £1 of Access to Work money in fact generates £1.48 worth of revenue for the Exchequer. WHITE So why should the Disability Equality Duty put that at risk? KNIGHT Because the government is using the Disability Equality Duty as a rationale to say that central government - and they've indicated that in time this may extend to wider public bodies - that they themselves must take on this responsibility as part of the public duty for paying for reasonable adjustments. Now that worries me because if I just give you an example: The Department for Work and Pensions stopped using Access to Work in 2003, now since 2003 there are 1,200 fewer disabled people in the employment of the Department of Work and Pensions, why is that - is that because disabled people can't get access to the necessary monies? WHITE Well we put John Knight's point to the Department of Work and Pensions, this is part of the statement we received from the office of the minister for disabled people Anne McGuire. DEPARTMENT OF WORK AND PENSIONS STATEMENT From the 1st October 2006 each government department is now responsible for funding Access to Work directly and savings to the Access to Work budget, resulting from this change, are kept within the programme. As a result Job Centre Plus is able to target support towards disabled people working for smaller employers who are less able than large employers to make the adjustments disabled staff need. It is not correct to say that the DWP employs 1,200 fewer disabled people than we did in 2003 when we took responsibility for funding the workplace adjustments. As part of our modernisation programme we have reduced overall staff numbers by over 17,500, in fact the proportion of staff recorded as being disabled has risen from 5% in 2003 to 5.3% in 2006. So Marie will you be monitoring for unforeseen consequences? PYE Obviously when we're looking at schemes and we're looking at how public authorities are doing we will keep an eye out for any unintended consequences but we don't think we're going to see very many of them. Disabled people should notice that the way their local council delivers their services, the way the university recruits new students, the way their hospital recruits new staff should improve for disabled people. The young person in school who's always had to carry their bag around even though they've got arthritis should suddenly notice that the school have changed their mind and produced lockers. Practical stuff, on the ground. WHITE We'll be watching that on You and Yours, as I'm sure you will be. Marie Pye thank you very much. ROBINSON Peter on the Disability Equality Duty legislation which comes into force next week. Back to the You and Yours homepage The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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