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	TX: 05.10.06 - Return to SENDA PRESENTER: PETER WHITE
	Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. WHITE Five years ago the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act or SENDA, as it's become known, was passed and for the first time students with disabilities, staying in education and training after the age of 16, were given civil rights. Education had inexplicably been left out of the Disability Discrimination Act of 1995 and this new law put that right. It protects students against being refused admission to colleges and universities on grounds of disability and against institutions who allow their education to suffer because of unequal access to learning resources, such as computers. As a new academic year gets into full swing we thought it was a good time to return to SENDA and find out just what difference it's made. I've come to the Freshers' Fair at University College, London. UCL was the first university in England to admit students of any race, class or religion and the first to welcome women on equal terms with men. Well with me in the Disability Centre is the university's disability coordinator Marion Hingston Lamb. Marion, first of all, has UCL maintained those liberal traditions as far as disabled students are concerned? HINGSTON LAMB Well I would certainly hope so and I do think that the general philosophy of the university does really help to include all students, including disabled students. WHITE I would have thought most of the problems or a lot of the problems do come early on. I mean I'm blind, just finding this place, getting into UCL, finding your office, would be a difficulty. I mean can you get to students really early on at a time like this when they're probably feeling completely lost I should think? HINGSTON LAMB We certainly try very hard to and in fact pick up information as far as we can from students at application and encourage students, even when they're thinking of applying to university, to make contact with us. And for those students we try and maintain dialogue through the application process. And so for many disabled students when they arrive here they already know us quite well, they know where we are and we may have talked to their department about what kind of support they need. WHITE So what's going on in the Disability Centre today because there are quite a lot of students coming in and out as we speak aren't there? HINGSTON LAMB Absolutely. We've got a drop-in for two days and during that time we've invited all the students who've told us that they're disabled to come in and see us so that we can check that they've got all the information they need about our services and things are in places they should be. But also we're using it as an opportunity to get those students who could well make use of our services, who are disabled, who haven't told the university, for one reason or another, or indeed may not have been disabled or affected when they applied but are now. So it's a real opportunity for us to get all of those students in. WHITE And is that one of the main problems - non-disclosure? HINGSTON LAMB I think it's still a problem, I do think that SENDA has made a big difference to that. It's about cultural change and I think SENDA has made more people feel confident that they're going to get the support they require if they disclose. So I think things are changing but it's not perfect. WHITE Well we're going to wander across and see if we can interrupt one or two of these people as they fill in their forms. HINGSTON LAMB Right here's a folder with some information about our services. Information booklet and a few of the leaflets about things that might be of interest to you, so read them… CRESS COONER My name's Fiona Cress Cooner and I suffer from Wegener's granulomatosis with associated kidney and sinus problems. It's an autoimmune disease, systemic vasculitis. WHITE So can I just ask you what effect that has? CRESS COONER Well as it's systemic it affects every system in my body and the treatment that is needed for it means that also brings lots of problems out. WHITE And you've come into the Disability Centre this afternoon, what basically are you looking for really? CRESS COONER Just to make sure that all the people who are involved with me are aware of the condition so that there's a bit of sort of, not sympathy so much, but that they'll realise why I'm not somewhere that my attendance might not be as good as other people's and it's not that I'm skiving but that I've got reasons for it. WHITE What actually happened at the application process, how much information did you give them when you applied here? CRESS COONER Well I had to fill out forms right from the beginning declaring disabilities. It was just recommended that I did, I didn't have to tell them, it wasn't compulsory. I told them everything from the beginning actually but I think that when I went through interview the actual interviewers were unaware of my disabilities. WHITE So particularly today what are - how are you feeling about the process, I mean everyone's pretty nervous at the start of this but you've obviously got more to contend with? CRESS COONER I think it should be okay really to be honest, it's all been quite positive and I seem to have got lots of support so far and there seems to be lots of things set up already for me to get more if I need it and when I need it. VIE My name's Sean Vie, I'm an Eng D researcher at the Bartlett School of Architecture doing a post grad doctorate. And my major disability is I'm profoundly dyslexic. WHITE Now you've had a range of educational experiences haven't you, as a dyslexic how have things changed over that period of time? VIE Initially it was extremely hard because we were involved with local education authorities and they were extremely reluctant to get involved with people who didn't have obvious disabilities. And so we were pretty much left on our own, I was left on my own, my parents were left on their own, to deal with dyslexia in our area and just sent towards various charities. WHITE And I suppose the point really is that the university is such a words and written orientated environment isn't it. VIE It's an absolute minefield. A case in point is being given a form to fill out to say what your dyslexia is, is one of the most stupid things I've come across so far. WHITE Now you've worked pre- and post-SENDA and what difference has that act actually made? VIE Huge - a huge amount of difference. Suddenly you're connected through the university to a body which understands your needs and the help that can be offered towards you. There's monies made available for specialised equipment that you need, the university is completely sympathetic, in my case, with my disability, to them looking at examinations and will adapt those examinations to what you do and it is accepted. WHITE So when you come to your final examinations are they going to be now in a form that are easier to do for you? VIE Unfortunately it's a 60,000 written document but the good news is I've got people - proof readers - and people are available to me to help me to write that document. HINGSTON LAMB So we've talked about exams and what I'll do is I'll give you an information pack in a minute that will go over that kind of thing. You haven't ticked it. JENKINS I don't really need any sort of personal assistance, I'm generally fairly mobile, slightly longer than anybody else because I'm more aware of keeping my balance. HINGSTON LAMB By ticking those boxes or not doesn't commit you to anything at this stage. JENKINS My name's Sarah Jenkins. I was diagnosed with mild cerebral palsy at the age of two. The condition mostly affects my balance and coordination. I find stairs difficult if there's not a handrail but otherwise I'm fully mobile. WHITE What basically are you looking for from the people here? JENKINS Mostly I'm just here to make people aware of my disability. WHITE So really from your point of view disclosure in itself is an advantage really? JENKINS Yes, it really is. WHITE What's been your experience of higher education so far? JENKINS My undergraduate degree was in Egyptology and I studied at Oxford which was quite interesting in itself - lots of old buildings and staircases and access was quite an interesting issue. WHITE SENDA was already in place, how was that experience and how up to speed was Oxford? JENKINS Well Oxford does take a little while to come round to new ideas, bless it, but I thought the experience was very positive. WHITE Well things have calmed down a little bit, I'm going to grab another word with Marion Hingston Lamb, who's disability coordinator and also with us is Jenny O'Sullivan, who's disability support officer. Marion, you've been in this field for quite a long time, pre- and post-SENDA, so was SENDA the catalyst for change or was it happening anyway? HINGSTON LAMB I think to a large extent it was happening anyway, there was quite a lot of guidance coming out to universities about making sure disabled students were included and their needs were considered. What the legislation has done in a way is make a good framework that does make some parts of the universities sit up and take a bit more notice than they might have done otherwise. WHITE Jenny O'Sullivan, you're dealing very much with students on an individual basis, what would normally happen on a regular basis, I mean do people come to see you after this introductory day like today, do they come to you when they've got a problem, how do you know when things are going well? O'SULLIVAN Actually that's what we hope, we hope that the first two days - and certainly that's what does happen - the first two registration is kind of making sure students have information about us and know where we are, because sometimes that can be the biggest thing. WHITE What about your own educational experiences, tell me about them. O'SULLIVAN I came into this job very much straight after having been at university myself. So I started here at UCL about three and a half years ago, having been a disabled student. I have short stature. I'd been through disabled students allowances process, I also was quite aware of the changes that were taking place at the time in terms of SENDA and I just realised that it was an interesting time to get involved. WHITE Your course, your university course, started pre-Senda I mean how much help did you get? O'SULLIVAN When I started, which would have been in 1999, there wasn't a disability office, the role of disability coordinator was an extra responsibility, it was somebody whose main job was an academic and just had this kind of tagged on. WHITE Would you say you had to struggle with all this additional administrative stuff that you had to do? O'SULLIVAN I think yes, I think I did take that on and had to be quite organised about it. And it was a struggle and there wasn't really anybody that I could really feel would take that on for me. WHITE Well we've now left the hubbub of University College, London and I'm joined by Barbara Waters, who's the Chief Executive of the National Bureau of Students with Disabilities. Barbara Waters, first of all, can you just set the scene of what things were like before SENDA was introduced? WATERS It was exceedingly patchy, there were one or two universities where someone with a real sort of force for change was providing support but that was without much budget and relying on a lot of goodwill, both from the students and from the staff. In other places it was completely it was completely impossible for students to study the course of their choice. And when the Disability Discrimination Act was passed in 1995 education was barely in it, there was a very small part which required the college or the university to make a disability statement about how it would treat students and what they could expect. But there were no other requirements on it, partly, I think, due to cold feet of the legislators. WHITE Now can you just explain what SENDA actually did when it was introduced? WATERS It provided civil rights to disabled students alongside the rest of the DDA. It provided the requirement for universities and colleges to anticipate that they would always have disabled students with them, every year, not to wait till one enrolled and then go oh dear what shall we do now. WHITE And it's been brought in in stages hasn't it. WATERS It has yes. I think this reflects the cold feet actually. I think the government was anxious to bring people along with it and therefore gave them time to prepare. So the first stage was the anticipatory duty and the discrimination legislation. A year later they brought in an aspect called auxiliary aids and services. And then we waited a couple of years until last September when the physical features, which of course is the fabric of the building, the estates. WHITE Of course we should say it's not just universities, it's all higher education - technical colleges, colleges of further education etc. Have they all responded equally enthusiastically? WATERS Well I think the Learning and Skills Council has put a huge amount of effort into training staff, so I think the culture change within further education, adult and community education, has been faster. The building investment is coming, it's been more difficult in that area but the LSC has a commitment to continuing improving the estates of FE colleges, partly because of the skills agenda as well, so it's not just for disabled students. There's been less staff development in higher education, it's there but people don't take it up. WHITE Why not? WATERS Well partly because it's not compulsory, I think, because academic staff in universities can't be told to go to staff training and development, whereas I think within further and adult education there's a much stronger element of lifelong learning if you like and those staff expect and want to take up those opportunities. WHITE Now there is this other part of the Disability Discrimination Act that comes into force at the beginning of December - the Public Service Duty - can you just explain what effect that will have on higher education establishments? WATERS Yes and on all post-16 establishments. It will create a corporate duty on the university college or provider as a body. So the governors, the principal, the vice-chancellor and all the staff will have a responsibility to promote the inclusion of disabled people, not just students but staff as well. Because at the moment SENDA requires on the individual disabled student making a complaint, that's a big burden to put on a young person, if it's a young student or on a person who's perhaps not very self-confident about their learning and to put you in conflict with your university or your provider is really a big step to take. And when the new legislation comes in it'll be a corporate duty and I think that will bring even bigger and better changes. WHITE And you expect that to make a big difference? WATERS I think it is a very powerful lever, implementing it is another matter, as always, with legislation. WHITE So post-SENDA is everything in the higher education, further education, garden lovely? WATERS I wouldn't say that everything is lovely, there is some excellent practice and some really interesting changes but there are still one or two people who you meet who says - Oh SENDA, DDA - oh we've done that, we've done everything we need to do. And you say - So your students are now being completely supported? And they say - Oh well I only have a very small budget. So I think internally it isn't as well supported as it should be, especially in higher education. WHITE And is that because people haven't understood what's required of them or are more worried about budgets than they are about people? WATERS I think it's because budgets are such a big issue that they don't understand that without support the student will not progress and achieve and then they won't have achieved their own outcome as an education provider. WHITE Barbara Waters, chief executive of Skill or the national bureau for students with disabilities. Back to the Transcripts homepage Back to the You and Yours homepage The BBC is not responsible for external websites

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