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| TX: 05.07.06 - Blind Veterinary Nurse PRESENTER: SHEILA MCCLENNON |
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| Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. MCCLENNON But first, a trainee veterinary assistant who was sacked after she lost her sight has won the first case brought by a disabled person against an employer under the Disability Discrimination Act. Hayley Tudor who's 22 worked at a small vets' practice in Blackpool. An employment tribunal awarded her £20,000 on the grounds that her work was mainly as a receptionist and her employer, the vet, had made no effort at all to try to make it possible for her to carry on doing the job. We contacted Hayley Tudor but she didn't want to comment. Sylvia Tschimmel is the vet in the case, Chris Benson is a solicitor at the Disability Rights Commission, the commission helped Hayley Tudor to bring her case. I asked Sylvia Tschimmel why she felt she could no longer employ Hayley Tudor once she'd lost her sight. TSCHIMMEL My priority - concern is the care and welfare of animals and in my view - in my very strong view a blind person cannot work with animals. Animals are temperamental and when they're injured or in pain even more so and I think it's not going to work. And in the guidance notes on veterinary nursing it says that a blind person cannot enrol on to the training course for veterinary nurses. I had also a statement of a colleague that owns a big practice with many branches, so employing many vets and many nurses and he also is of the opinion that nurses cannot work. So I would say the veterinary world would say it is not possible. MCCLENNON Chris Benson what then is the position in law here? BENSON I mean I think we accept a lot of what was said there. The Disability Discrimination Act puts a duty on employers to make reasonable adjustments to find activities that Hayley could have done. There may be some aspects of her old job that she couldn't have done - maybe she could have transferred duties with other employees, she could have done some of the duties and just worked part time, it's about flexibility. I think this case as well when Hayley was dismissed - her sight could have come back, not everybody who has a stroke and loses their sight the sight loss is permanent, so at the time she was dismissed nobody was to know whether her sight would have returned or not. And what we'd like to see is that employers and disabled people just discuss with each other what they can do, what they can't do and just have some flexibility. MCCLENNON So this case really centred on whether the employer had made reasonable efforts to try to keep this girl on? BENSON Partly that as well. What we thought was that the employer had made assumptions about Hayley's ability to do the job and that's known as direct discrimination and that's always unlawful if it's proven, that's one of the changes made to the DDA and that's why the Disability Rights Commission was interested in the case. MCCLENNON Sylvia Tschimmel... TSCHIMMEL Yes - can I just say something to this please? MCCLENNON Yes of course. TSCHIMMEL Because I know Chris Benson said that duties could be swapped with other colleagues, there is only one other colleague and the real fact is that the shifts of the two nurses overlap only by a little bit and Hayley would have to be in the building most days several hours by herself, when the other nurse is sick or on holiday she would have to work all shifts and with me not being able to delegate to her in a way that would be appropriate let's say and with Hayley not being able to do the most important part of her job which is the nursing, which is the monitoring of the anaesthetic, which is monitoring animals during their recovery period it's just not possible, it's not feasible. And I am refusing to accept that I just sacked her, which I did not do. We had a talk, she phoned me four weeks after she was released from hospital and I said - Hayley, how are you? And she said - I'm still blind. And I said - You must understand I have to find somebody else to do the work. And she didn't say anything to that. Then I sent her her P45 and then two weeks later I got the letter of her solicitor and then I offered her a meeting, I thought she agreed, I mean anybody in their right mind agrees that a blind person cannot work as a nursing assistant. MCCLENNON But even if you're right that it might have proved that she could not have done her job the point in law is that you made no reasonable efforts to try to let her carry on. TSCHIMMEL I thought she was in agreement with my decision. When I found out that she did not agree I said - Okay Hayley, let's meet, I come to your house, I've got a questionnaire, let's sit down and talk and see what you think you can do. She refused. I did offer her, her job back in due course and she refused. And she got away with it. MCCLENNON Chris Benson, this is a very small company and whatever the law might say many people will feel sympathy with the vet in this case because when you consider even the time and effort that would have had to go in to try to accommodate someone in a small practice like that who is blind that's a costly business. BENSON Well we don't think it is a costly business. The points that we've just been discussing now could have been and should have been discussed with Hayley. What the law says is that employers must make reasonable adjustments, obviously small employers have to make smaller adjustments than large employers with more jobs and more cash at their disposal. MCCLENNON What would have been reasonable then in your view? BENSON I think just the sort of debate we've been having today about could you do this aspect of the job, what about that aspect of the job, before Hayley was dismissed. Once she was dismissed she was devastated, I think she didn't feel she could go back, she didn't feel she had a sympathetic employer. MCCLENNON But if Sylvia Tschimmel is right and the handbook for people who want to apply for these veterinary nursing training courses actually says that they don't accept blind people are you going to take that up with them? BENSON The DRC does work with lots of qualifications bodies to try and look at any practices that may have barriers for disabled people and to try and find ways around them. In this case the issue seemed to be that there was just no dialogue between the employer and the disabled person before any decision was taken. MCCLENNON And the offers to talk about afterwards they just don't count? BENSON In some cases a disabled person may find that even after they're dismissed they can put up with and face going back to an employer but in this case I just think Hayley was so distressed she felt that she was so not welcome back at that practice that she couldn't return. MCCLENNON Sylvia Tschimmel how will this judgement affect your practice - you have to pay I think it's £20,000 in compensation and what are your legal costs on top of that? TSCHIMMEL I have just had another bill over £1,300 so it will be £12,300 and this all occurred in the run up to the hearing so in the end to the hearing I had to go without legal support because I couldn't afford it. MCCLENNON Chris Benson? BENSON I think that it's just so unfortunate because this situation could have been avoided if ... TSCHIMMEL It is not just unfortunate Chris it is disgusting, you know, it couldn't have been avoided. I did not know how to react in this situation, it's just unfortunate, it's very unfortunate, devastating basically. BENSON I think it is and what we'd hope is that situations like this don't arise in the future. There is advice to small employers on the Disability Rights Commission website about what they can do to prevent this happening but in this case it's unfortunate for both parties. TSCHIMMEL The case is that England has got - seems to have the strictest disability discrimination laws in Europe and I know in fact obviously in Germany I know a bit better up to five employees the Disability Discrimination Act does not apply. And I think that is far more suitable. I mean if you only have two employees your flexibility is extremely limited and plus I am the employer and without me Hayley's job would not exist and I think I should be in the position to say how I schedule my work day and how I delegate duties. MCCLENNON The vet Sylvia Tschimmel and Chris Benson, a solicitor with the Disability Rights Commission. And if you would like to comment on that or any story that you hear on the programme today you can e-mail us at bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours or give us a call 0800 044 044. Back to the You and Yours homepage The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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