................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 22.10.95
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: David Trimble is in our Belfast studio. Good afternoon, Mr Trimble. DAVID TRIMBLE: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: You have said no to talks unless there is some decommissioning. They, the IRA, Sinn Fein have said that isn't going to happen. So, are we at the end of the road now? TRIMBLE: It remains to be seen. I think, I should correct your opening words. It's not I who said originally 'the test'. The test was set originally by the British and Irish Governments, which set out in the Downing Street Declaration the requirement as a precondition that people establish a commitment to exclusively peaceful methods. It was Sir Patrick Mayhew who defined that, at its very least, as being the beginning of a process of actual decommissioning. Now, if Sir Patrick is going to throw those solemn agreements aside and abandon the tests that he himself set, I wish he would say so, clearly. HUMPHRYS: Do you believe that's what he has in mind? TRIMBLE: Well, we have ambiguity on this matter. We have Sir Patrick hinting at it on Tuesday and denying it on Wednesday. I think, really, it's better for the Government to come clean as to what exactly is going on. And, I would like to know just exactly what sort of commission you say has been agreed. I'm not aware of any agreement between the British and Irish Governments on the establishment of a commission. I think, if there is such agreement, we should be told. HUMPHRYS: There is clearly an agreement in principle between the governments isn't there? TRIMBLE: No, there isn't. Well, it's not clear that there is. It is the case that an effort was being made to arrive at an agreement and that is was all going to be unveiled at a summit in Chequers in September and then the IRA issued an ultimatum to the Irish Government to withdraw on threat of violence. That's an interesting event, isn't it? and the Irish government complied with the IRA threat of violence. Now that's exactly the sort of situation that the British Government and ourselves must not allow ourselves to be put into. To be put into a situation where this group can try and achieve political results through the threat of violence and that's why it's so important that they are required to prove a commitment to peaceful methods. HUMPHRYS: Right. When you say approve a commitment to peaceful methods, do you mean literally, physically handing over weapons? TRIMBLE: Well, it's very difficult to see how it could be done any other way, especially in a context where an organisation is saying: we must hold on to all our thousand or so sub-machine guns and all the rest of our ordinance but we daren't surrender a single bullet or give up a single bullet. Then, the natural question you ask is: why do you want all of these guns? What's the purpose? What do you intend to do? And, you put that against the background of the very clear threats that were being uttered last month and the continuing paramilitary activity over a range of matters, here in Northern Ireland, and you have to say the evidence all points towards an absence of peaceful intent. And, what is necessary is that there be evidence of a peaceful intent? HUMPHRYS: Your answer was: "it's difficult to see how it could be done." In other words, how they could prove that commitment, that intent, without getting rid of weapons. It was not 'No'. Absolutely, categorically 'no'. TRIMBLE: Well, the onus is on them. Let me make that clear and I'm not going to explore possibilities or hypothetical situations. The onus is on Sinn Fein, IRA to prove their peaceful intent. So far, they've made no effort to do that. And I think there's obviously, a reluctance both of various people to say that they must jump through precisely this hoop or that. But I think what they've got to do is to make a start and that's what Sir Patrick was saying back at Easter, in his Washington Tests,
when he called for the start of a process. And, it's necessary for Sinn Fein to make a start. Sinn Fein are the obstacle to progress in this matter. HUMPHRYS: But what you seem to be saying is that if they will come up with some suggestions as to how else they can prove that commitment, you're perfectly prepared to listen to them, you'll sit down and talk to them about it. TRIMBLE: No, I would not have said that and I'm not hinting that. HUMPHRYS: Well, take the first part of that question: you are prepared to listen to them. If they come up with some other suggestions as to how they might prove that..... Perhaps, by saying we wouldn't be the first to break the ceasefire, for instance - just as an example. TRIMBLE: Well, let's go back to the basic requirements and I think that it's important that you keep those clearly in mind - and they were spelt out in the Downing Street Declaration as being - amongst other things - establishing a commitment to peaceful methods, exclusively peaceful methods. Now, 'establishing' is the word you want to focus on in this and that to my mind means proving that there is a commitment. It's not enough to issue words - particularly, words coming from those sources - against the background of their actions in the past will not carry credibility, will not create confidence. There has to be actions. Now. I would like to see some actions from them that point in that direction. As to whether those actions will satisfy the test remains to be seen and I repeat what I said earlier. It's very difficult to envisage anything that does not involve dealing with the weapons issue. HUMPHRYS: Right but you're not saying impossible, are you? TRIMBLE: No. But I'm saying the onus is on them to act and they have not done anything as yet. But what I think is very important in this discussion and we get back to what has happened this week is that the suggestion that the report and consideration of some sort of commission can be a substitute for actions is quite wrong. HUMPHRYS: So in other words, if the commission were established, as indeed it may very well be, and if the British and Irish and American Governments agreed that that could run parallel with All Party Talks so that, as it were, as Sinn Fein walk in through one door they'd dump a few Armalites, theoretically, at the door of the commission. At the same time as they are walking in through another door, to engage in All Party Talks, are you saying you would not be in those All Party Talks, they couldn't be All Party Talks because you wouldn't attend them. TRIMBLE: That's a very good point to make. There won't be All Party Talks unless we are present and even then you've got to consider that there is more than one Unionist Party and that All Party Talks by definition must be All Party Talks. And I think those that are planning All Party Talks would be well advised to talk to us about it - and I underline that. That no decision will be made on All Party Talks that does not have our agreement and it's foolish to think otherwise. Now, this twin-track approach that you summarised there, there is still to my mind far too many questions that have not be answered about the terms of reference of a commission, its composition and exactly what it's going to do. In our mind, a commission is there to oversee and to verify the process of actual decommissing and that's the sort of commission, that would be very useful if it were established and I'd like to known just exactly what sort of commission is being proposed. I am being assured by Sir Patrick Mayhew that the commission that the British Government is talking about is a commission whose terms of reference relates purely to actual decommissioning and that's a very different sort of operation to the one that you have just mentioned. HUMPHRYS: Verify, I think you said verify and oversee as opposed to discuss the modalities. TRIMBLE: Yes. HUMPHRYS: And if that is what is proposed, if the commission, if the remit of the commission is to sit down with Sinn Fein and to discuss the way they set about some form of decommissioning, your answer to that is: forget it. TRIMBLE: My answer to that is that that's only getting as far as the Second Washington Test and that Sir Patrick spelt out three Washington Tests and the third involves the beginning of the process of actual decommissioning and that that has to occur, as Sir Patrick said, prior to talks beginning. HUMPHRYS: Is there any other way of going do you think? TRIMBLE: Well I can't see any other way of getting into negotiation without building confidence that people in the..the peaceful intent of people and without demonstrating in some way that they've turned their back on violence. And it's because over a month ago we could see that the British and Irish Governments were deadlocked on this matter and that there was going to be a problem in that respect, that we then brought forward the proposal for dealing with the other requirement in paragraph ten of the Downing Street Declaration, which incidentially people seem to be forgetting at the moment. Namely, that as well as establishing a commitment to exclusively peaceful methods, then bodies such as Sinn Fein will also have to show that they're prepared to abide by the democratic process. So we thought there might be some merit in tackling that second issue and one way which that could be done, a very effective way in our view, would be to have elections to an elected body which could then begin to debate and to inquire into issues which would be relevant to future negotiations. HUMPHRYS: But that's not a starter is it. I spoke to Gerry Adams on this programme three weeks ago, I think it was, and he said no, forget it, effectively.....think that was the message. TRIMBLE: I think that people should be well advised to think about it again, very carefully, because it's very necessary I think in this situation to ensure that some things are happening, if some things are moving forward and if we're stuck on one avenue because of refusal of Sinn Fein IRA to deal with the weapons issue, then it would be well worth looking at another avenue. But if Mr Adams says no to both possibilities well then if there's a problem it's his responsibility. HUMPHRYS: Well he's not saying no to the kind of decommissioning, the kind of twin track talks that we just discussed this morning, to which you've said no. TRIMBLE: No, the twin track is all predicated on actual decommission and I think that's important to understand. HUMPHRYS: Well as we've discussed, that depends how the thing is set up and what the remit of the commission is. TRIMBLE: Go back to what, I mean you quoted earlier from one sentence in Sir Patrick Mayhew's Press Conference on Tuesday, go back to what the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons on Thursday and the Prime Minister who may carry more weight than Sir Patrick repeated the requirement in the Third Washington Test, about actual decommissioning. HUMPHRYS: The British Government has too much invested in this process to see it come to an end, wouldn't you accept that? TRIMBLE: I think everybody has an awful lot invested in this process and what everybody wants to see is genuine peace and the best way. I think this is a very important point, the best way of ensuring that there is a genuine peace is by persuading those who hitherto have been involved in violence, that they cannot achieve their goal through the use of force or the threat of force. That is why it is so important that those who believe in democracy do try and bring home to those involved in paramilitarism that they do have to abandon the use or the threat of force. If you are going to say that we'll allow them to proceed while threatening the resumption of violence as they did last month, you are not advancing the cause of peace and you are making it more likely that further down the line there will be a violent breakdown. It is very important for real peace to bring it home to people that they must leave behind the threat and the use of force. HUMPHRYS: But the reason I talked about the British Government being committed is that you know, surely at least, an awful lot of observers recognise this fact that you cannot at the end of it all, it rests upon an element of compromise on your part, you cannot be seen to be standing outside and sabotaging - because that's how it's going to be described, the whole process. Sooner or later you are going to have to say: "alright we'll go along with you" - aren't you, isn't that the political reality of this. TRIMBLE: Oh yes and the principles on which we'll proceed were spelt out by the British and Irish Governments in the Downing Street Declaration in paragraph ten to which I've referred. And on the basis of the procedures laid out by the British and Irish Governments, we said that we'll be prepared to move down that path. And all we're doing is saying, and as far as I'm aware the British Government is still committed to the Downing Street Declaration, and the Irish Government, although it equivocates from time to time, has not yet repudiated it. So all we're saying is that we'll proceed on the basis of the Downing Street Declaration on this matter. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thank you very much indeed. ...oooOooo...