................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 26.5.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The President of the European Commission says the government is getting it wrong in the beef war with Brussels - if that's what it really is. By the end of next week the government will know whether our European partners are prepared to back down in the face of our threats - or call our bluff. One of the key players in this dangerous game is the President of the European Commission, Jacques Santer. What does he think of the way the British government has been behaving? Emma Udwin flew to Athens on Friday to ask him. EMMA UDWIN: Mr Santer, were you surprised to hear a British Prime Minister announce a strategy of non co-operation in the European Union? JACQUES SANTER: I was a little surprised I must say because I do not see any link between the strategy and to restore the confidence in the market, to resume the consumption of beef. UDWIN: Is it an acceptable tactic to use? SANTER: In my view there is no link between the two problems so I don't see to what result this tactic can...can..what result it can achieve. UDWIN: Some of your colleagues, some very senior politicians in Europe, have called this tactic a form of blackmail. Now do you see it in that light? SANTER: I see it as a reaction of course of some decision or not decision taken at the Council of Ministers last week. But I don't think that's a very good reaction in my view, even speaking as a politician because we have to be very crystal clear in this matter. That's not the cause of this beef crisis..was not due to any Member States of the European Union, nor to the Commission. The cause was in the announcement made by Secretary of States from British Government in the House of Commons. I think it was on 20th March, the Secretary of States for Health and Agriculture and the UK Chief Medical, they figured this crisis so...unfortunately I must say, the British Government did not inform before nor the Commission, nor the Member States in this case. And therefore they are both, through this mismanagement of the declarations, there was this....of the crisis and this panic situation in Europe and therefore through the pressure of the consumers and the ministers of course worried about public health situation in this case, that...than were achieved by the Member States. UDWIN: Do you think that Britain made things worse for itself by the way it handled the situation? SANTER: At this moment I think the strategy could be very counter-productive in this case because it's a question of public health. UDWIN: When you say it may be counter-productive. Do you think that Britain may have lost friends, lost allies in Europe by adopting this strategy? SANTER: You see at this moment I am very concerned about perhaps an empty European atmosphere and climate in the UK but I am also, as President of the Commission, concerned about an empty British atmosphere and climate between the fourteen other Member States and I don't see that it's very good for UK to be isolated in a matter related to public health and I don't think that..I think that would be very harmful also for British diplomats. UDWIN: You may not like the British Government's tactics but you must share some of the British Government's frustration, afterall it's the Commission's proposal that's been rejected and it's the Commission that set out the scientific basis for lifting the ban on the beef by-products. Do you share some of Britain's frustration that this is not been thought out? SANTER: I share this, in this share. But you must be aware that....the Member States waited, I must say, six weeks to have comprehensive plan from the British Government to slaughter, to eradicate the disease because that's a problem. The main problem is how we can and what strategy we can apply to..for the eradication of the BSE disease and that's why we..therefore we have to try to go step by step. The first step I said was to lift the ban and I hope that we can lift it at the next - I hope so - at the next council at the beginning of June now, in Luxembourg. And therefore the Commission because we have some scientific advice that for the by-products there is no evidence, there is no risk, if some conditions of course of manufacture and production are respected to lift the ban. Therefore we make these proposals. I hope that the majority of the Member States would back our proposal. UDWIN: And if they don't? SANTER: Then the Commission would take its own responsibility as we did it now. UDWIN: The Commission will raise the ban even if there is no agreement. SANTER: We make a proposal of course twice now and we make this proposal, as I said on the basis of scientific advice. It's not a political proposal and therefore I think we have to take our responsibility. UDWIN: But the problem is, isn't it, that some of our partners in Europe are not only concentrating on the science. There are a range of political considerations that have come into play and Britain does have reason to be fed up about that, doesn't it. SANTER: The problem is the psychological problem, to how we can restore the confidence in the market, it's a psychological problem and therefore several Member States link this problem also with this consideration and so it makes things so difficult because it's not only a British problem because all the European Markets dropped in avery high..really I must say the prices and also the consumer...also a real European problem so I hope that we can adopt a strategy, a comprehensive strategy to lift the ban because the ban is only a temporary measure. UDWIN: Let's think a little bit about what lifting the overall ban would mean. I mean our own ministers are talking about a step by step approach, perhaps unbanning the sale of calves, maybe meat from specialised herds from particular parts of the country, Scotland, Northern Ireland and then lifting that worldwide ban. Now is that an approach that seems plausible to you? SANTER: That seems to me a very good approach, a plausible approach we have to firstly study but that seems to be the real approach to, if we can, step by step, to lift the ban. UDWIN: And you could accept eventually lifting that worldwide ban, does that mean that you have some question mark in your mind about the legality of the worldwide ban because you know in Britain this is a matter of hot dispute, whether the Union was in its rights to ban the export to countries outside the union. SANTER: I am quite sure that from our point of view of course that we have no legal question about it. We are quite sure of the legality....and to be decided. UDWIN: You have no question mark in your mind about that. SANTER: No question about it. UDWIN: So you would be suggesting that a British attempt to have that overturned by the European Court of Justice would be likely to fail. SANTER: In our view, of course. UDWIN: How long, do you think, it's going to take to get that overall ban on British beef lifted? SANTER: That's a question I cannot answer at this moment because it's a question, of..as I said of restoring confidence, stabilisation of markets and it can only be progressive. It's up to see how this confidence can be restored. Lifting the ban cannot be a condition to restore the confidence because you have to go - as I said before - to the cause of the problem, of the crisis. Therefore, you have to eradicate this disease and if the citizens of Europe are quite aware that all measures are taken to eradicate this disease and then also, so I think - so I hope so - the confidence would be restored. UDWIN: The key point for the British Government is when they can get agreement to put in place a timescale for lifting the ban. Now, I don't know whether you can take a judgment on how long that will take, some of our ministers are talking about a matter of months. SANTER: It seems to me that it could last at least some time because we cannot decide to a decree how we can - when the confidence is restored. UDWIN: When do you think it might be reasonable to expect the European Union to take a decision on a timeframe though - on some kind of programme, with a timetable attached? SANTER: It's very difficult to see my view, to have a timetable. You can have a framework of the strategy, how we can adapt that, to see how does it work - its effects. And then from this, you can take some conclusions in this respect. But, it cannot in our office decide how long it lasts, what would be the timetable and so on. That is very counterproductive. Nobody would give any confidence to such a measure. UDWIN: Well, in that case, it does look like the Florence summit will be in jeopardy, won't it? Because it seems extremely unlikely that the British Government will have what they are demanding before then. How great an impact do you think their tactics will have on that front? SANTER: I don't think that the Italian Presidency would be...would like to be hijacked at the European Council in Florence because we have to deal with other very important matters for our citizens. We can discuss, as we discussed it in Torino....the twenty-ninth of March. We can discuss this problem of beef but it would not be the main item of the agenda. UDWIN: Do you believe that Mr Major will follow through his threats? Not everyone does. Theo Waigel doesn't, Lamberto Dini has said he doesn't. Do you think he will follow through? SANTER: I don't think so. I cannot give an answer, a clear answer about this. I think, I can only tell you that from...speaking as President of the European Commission we try, really - and we demonstrate it by our action - to find a solution. A clear solution to this beef crisis, as we did also in the past and we give also in our Budget for 1997. We make proposals for eight hundred and seventy-three million Ecu for this crisis. Next week, we are talking about a new, financial support - about six hundred and fifty million Ecu. You see, that from the European point of view we make all what is in our possibility, in our limits, to come to a real answer to the question, because this is a very important question and I said it..I would be very helpful, also, to the British Government. I demonstrate it at every case. At this moment, what we have to take the real answers to the real question and that is the beef crisis and we have to come always at the cause of this beef crisis and we have to make - to put forward now - real and acceptable plan of eradication of this disease. UDWIN: Jacques Santer, thank you very much.