................................................................................ ON THE RECORD ALEX SALMOND INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 10.3.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well, Alex Salmond: I am a Scot, I believe in devolution. I do not believe in independence. Who do I vote for? ALEX SALMOND MP: Well I think people should vote SNP for independence but also I think people should vote SNP for political progress in Scotland. But, can I just say that you seem to be working on a misapprehension that actually more people in Scotland at the present moment who believe in independence now are yet voting for the SNP. I mean the SNP vote is certainly increasing but not as fast as the support for independence. So, one of our targets is to maximise that independence vote when polls are showing up to forty per cent. People in Scotland now believe in independence and that's a very strong position for the SNP to be in. HUMPHRYS: Well that's as may be but the fact remains that here am I a Scot who wants devolution. I want the union to persist though. Now Labour have said to me: Vote for us and we will give you devolution and the union remains. So, therefore, surely I should vote Labour? SALMOND: Yes, but what the polls are also showing is a majority of people in Scotland believe that devolution would lead to independence. Now I want to get to independence as quickly as possible and I'll be going into the next Election trying to win that election on an independence platform. But I'm pragmatic enough to say that if people in Scotland vote for something else and an assembly is established - and the only way an assembly will be established, if Labour are frightened by the SNP - then people in that context should also be given the opportunity to vote for independence. Now the logic in that argument is very very strong indeed. Now, I mean I know these films are meant to dramatise things, but we actually had this debate in the SNP last year - this time last year. That strategy of the primacy of the independence campaign by responding pragmatically to political developments was carried by two hundred votes to two at our National Council. Now, you've managed to interview the two. HUMPHRYS: Well, if that had been you wouldn't stil be Leader, would you? But anyway, I'm still puzzled. These films actually are meant to clarify rather than dramatise and I think it helped do that and it's left me now a little bit puzzled as to what you are saying. You're now saying to me if you want devolution, vote SNP. But, what we will give you - because that's your aim - is independence. So in other words I'll be voting against the union won't I? SALMOND: Let me try again, shall I? The SNP is a primacy of the independence campaign. That is our target, that's our aim and ambition and we want to maximise the independence vote. What we're saying is that we'll campaign for independence, we'll seek a mandate for independence at the General Election. We're also saying we'll respond pragmatically to any political development in Scotland. Many people would argue that the best opportunity for getting that mandate for independence - Scotland will only become independent when the majority of people vote for it - might well be in the Scottish political context, in assembly elections. Now I think we can get there quicker but I will always respond dramatically to improve and enhance the Scottish case. Now that seems to a logical argument. It's not complicated, I think it's impregnable. HUMPHRYS: It confuses me and indeed some of your own supporters. SALMOND: Well, you came into the interview wanting to be confused by it. I don't think it's confusing people in Scotland. HUMPHRYS: No. Well that isn't what that film suggested but let's try again. What you're saying to me is - and keep in mind that I do want devolution, I want that to Parliament and all the rest of it - but I do not want independence. I'm dead set against breaking up the union. So, what I'm saying to you is: I vote for you. The trouble is you will then use my vote to justify independence. SALMOND: Yes. The SNP will go into the Election seeking a mandate for Scottish independence. HUMPHRYS: Precisely. SALMOND: That's our objective and everybody's going to know that. It will also respond pragmatically to any political development in Scotland. Can I just say to you that the only mechanism for delivering independence is for people to vote for the SNP by a majority. We even say in the SNP - just to make sure there's no doubt about this - that we'll hold a referendum on the Constitutional package after negotiations on independence. There's no backdoor route to independence. People can only get Scottish independence when they vote for it by majority. Impeccably democratic and very simple, John. HUMPHRYS: So, if it's that simple, the message is prefectly clear: if all I want is devolution and I do not want independence, I should vote for the Labour Party, shouldn't I? Because the Labour Party have told me that's what they'll give me. SALMOND: Yes, but I think a lot of people in Scotland don't trust the Labour Party to deliver. I mean I've been watching your programme as a good politician must over the last year and I've seen- HUMPHRYS: I have no objection on that, at all. SALMOND: Well, I've seen reports from Wales. I've seen reports from people like John McWilliam in the North East of England. I think it would be incredible. If the history we've had in Scotland-If anybody trusted the Labour Party to deliver its devolution commitment. I mean afterall the first time Labour committed themselves to a Parliament for Scotland was I think 1888 and when Keir Hardie did it in the Mid Lanark by-election. He said a Scottish Parliament was just round the corner. Now a hundred years later we're still waiting. So I think there's a lot of scepticism, not just in Wales and the North East of England, but also in Scotland about the seriousness of Labour's devolution commitment. They've been dragged here, trying to head off support for the SNP and I think people in Scotland are quite.....Are the Labour Party serious about this? Will they deliver? And, I think the only way to make sure they deliver anything is the size and strength of the SNP vote. HUMPHRYS: So, not withstanding that there is this rock solid commitment from the Labour Party - and it couldn't be firmer, one of the few things some people would say on which it is absolutely firm, not withstanding that - what you are saying to me is, as somebody who wants only devolution and not independence, is trust me with your vote. Even though you are absolutely committed, rock solid commitment to indepedence. SALMOND: But, John, you've interviewed people from Wales and the Labour Party, who are deeply unhappy about a devolution commitment. You've interviewed people on this programme from the NorthEast of England who say that they'll roadblock devolution. They'll have a referendum or argue for that or they'll be conditional in their support for it. Now given that you've actually had these people interviewed on this programme, it's hardly surprising that many of us in Scotland are sceptical about the seriousness of the Labour Leadership's intention. Of course there are many people in the Labour Party who believe genuinely in the devolution commitment. There are many people in the Labour Party who want to go rather further. But the Labour Leadership do not have a good track record in delivering their commitments for Scotland. So, you will excuse us if we're rather sceptical about... HUMPHRYS: But the difference is I'm not interviewing them at the moment, I'm interviewing you- SALMOND: ...... right. HUMPHRYS: -and what you are doing, I fear is confusing me considerably because you seem to be making one promise to one section of the electorate and one promise to another section of the electorate. To one you're saying we'll give you the independence that you want and that you vote for. That's absolutely fine. To the other lot you're saying I know you don't want independence, I know you want devolution. So, to keep the Labour Party honest - at least I think that's what saying - you also ought to vote for us. But you of course - and this is the beauty of it, or the weakness of it - you have no way of knowing whether when I cast my vote for you, I am voting for independence or merely for devolution. SALMOND: Yes, but not the only political
information we have available to us in Scotland, we know from a series of opinion polls that the support for independence is very large and it's been growing. HUMPHRYS: Well on that basis, we needn't have Elections at all. We'll just have opinion polls. SALMOND: Well, that is a factor we have to bear in mind. I mean, there's lots of evidence - well, twenty years ago, when the SNP were last challenging seriously, the support for independence was about fifteen per cent of the electorate. Now, the support for independence is between thirty-five and forty per cent. You know, we've been successful in enlarging the independence constituency. It's not a majority yet but it's moving in that direction. Where we've been less successful is actually putting chalk on the board and winning the seats and progressing our political aims. Now, the film suggested that I'm going to radically change the SNP strategy on independence from the last Election. That simply isn't true. The good thing about our strategy in the last Election was the way we argued for independence, the primacy of the independence campaign. The failure in our strategy in the last Election is we managed to increase our own vote by fifty per cent but only gained three Parliamentary seats. Now, what I'd like to do is both enlarge and increase the vote, the independence constituency and also gain Parliamentary seats as well. Now, you'll excuse me if I try to achieve these things in the next General Election campaign. HUMPHRYS: You're trying to achieve it by a fairly cynical manoeuvre, really, aren't you? You're offering different things to different bits of the Constituency? SALMOND: Not at all. The SNP is, clearly, associated as the independence Party of Scotland. That's one of the things that people know about the SNP and always will. We'll argue and articulate that case in a way that we think advances that cause and that Constituency. It's an exciting project to be part of the creation of a new country, a new political system - Scotland within Europe. Now, this is an exciting idea. It's one of the few big ideas that's going to be presented to the Electorate. But what's-I'll give the viewers the benefit of asking some questions about the project that we're- HUMPHRYS: Always prepared to do that. But, this exciting project - this independence. Is devolution bound to lead to independence? SALMOND: No, it's not bound to lead to independence because independence can only be achieved when the Scottish people vote for it. But, I think, it will do because it puts in a Scottish political context, I think, there's arguments why the people are more likely to vote for independence in the context of a devolved assembly. But, obviously, I'm going to an Election - the next Election - and trying to win that Election for Scotland. I think, the Labour Party for all their apparent lead in the opinion polls are very vulnerable. I think- HUMPHRYS: Well, about forty per cent is pretty real, isn't it? SALMOND: Not in Scotland it's not, John. HUMPHRYS: Oh, well, how about the Tories? SALMOND: Yes, but not over us - that's the point. They're looking over their shoulders very nervously indeed. When Tony Blair came to Scotland on Friday and told the Labour Party to expect cuts - when we're all fighting against cuts in Scotland - the Labour Party conference in Scotland rejected the Trident commitment - you know the one spending commitment that Tony Blair's willing to make to Scotland, to spend it on Trident missiles. So, I think, the Labour Party have got good reason to fear us at the coming Election. Well, your point was: well, could devolution inevitably lead to independence? No. Only if the Scottish people choose it. Do I think it's a perfectly valid way to get to independence? The answer is: yes. HUMPHRYS: OK, so, we've had the Election. And, let's assume - and, it's reasonable to make this assumption - on the basis of the print viewers because you seem to believe in opinion polls - you were telling me earlier how much they meant for your Party - you .... as far as the Labour Party is concerned, can you?....(talking together) .....alright, alright. We-we've had the Election and Labour's won it. Labour introduces a Scottish Devolution Bill. Now, assuming that it contains what we are told, at the moment, that it will contain, would you vote for it? SALMOND: Well, the history of the SNP is that we've tended to vote for things that we think will advance the Scottish interest. I mean, obviously, I'm not giving it carte blanche because I haven't seen the Bill. HUMPHRYS: But, I've said 'assuming' it contains what we now believe it to contain. SALMOND: Well, yes. HUMPHRYS: We know what is meant to be in it. SALMOND: Well, I'd still like to see the Bill because there's a potential for blocking mechanisms, for referendums, for forty per cent rules. We've been down this route before in Scotland and we're- HUMPHRYS: No, no, no. But, that's not at the moment though, is it? We know what's in it, at the moment. SALMOND: Yes. HUMPHRYS: And, what I'm asking you is- SALMOND: And, we also know that the history of this measure has been and I'm saying I'm not giving a carte blanche commitment until I see the legislation. HUMPHRYS: Alright. SALMOND: And, seriously, you wouldn't expect me to - HUMPHRYS: Oh- SALMOND: -give such a commitment. HUMPHRYS: Oh, I think, I would because you're asking people- SALMOND: -before I have seen it. HUMPHRYS: -who believe in devolution to vote for you. SALMOND: What I'm also saying is the history of this subject would tell you that the SNP would tend to vote for any measure that would advance the Scottish interest. HUMPHRYS: Right. SALMOND: In fact, look at the last Parliament. I, actually, voted for more Bills for assemblies than the Labour Party did because I voted for both theirs and I also voted for the Liberal ones, as well, which, at that stage, they weren't prepared to - HUMPHRYS: And, there's not question from what you've said that the sort of Devolution Bill we believe would come about would advance the Scottish interest, is there? That's perfectly clear. SALMOND: I think- HUMPHRYS: Better than the status quo. SALMOND: I mean, the Devolution Bill, proposed by Labour, is a very weak thing, indeed. HUMPHRYS: But, better than what we've got, at the moment. SALMOND: Oh, yes. I think, it's a- HUMPHRYS: So, would earn Scotland's interest. SALMOND: A poor second best and would advance the Scottish interest. HUMPHRYS: So, therefore, you would support it. SALMOND: Yeah, assuming that there's no roadblocks or there's some Constitutional obstruction. I think, that's a reasonable assumption to make from history - yes. HUMPHRYS: Right and would you, then, take part in the Elections that would follow that for the new Parliament, or might you have done that, perhaps? SALMOND: If I may say so, that would be the whole point because that would be another platform to advance the independence case. Now our strategy, just to repeat, is the primacy of the independence campaign seeking to win the next General Election in Scotland, for Scotland but also to respond pragmatically to political developments and that would include standing candidates on an independence platform for these assembly elections. HUMPHRYS: Right, so that election, the election for the new Scottish Parliament would in effect be a referendum as far as you are concerned, a referendum for independence? SALMOND: Yes, I think it could be interpreted that way because we will be putting independence at the forefront of our campaign, yes. HUMPHRYS: And if you do take part it's reasonable
to assume that you will take up your seats in this new assembly, in this new Parliament. SALMOND: Well I'll be hoping under these circumstances to be negotiating an independence settlement from the Westminster Government. Now, it's not just me who thinks the SNP would do extremely wellin these circumstances, remember this under the hypothesis that you are laying out for me, this is mid-term in a Labour Government, we've got to assume that under these terms, Labour might be very unpopular and I suspect the SNP would be ridding even higher than we are at the present moment, so we'd have every prospect of winning these elections. HUMPHRYS: And if you won the election, then you would say, right, that is it, that's the mandate for independence. SALMOND: Yes, I mean, we'd negotiate independence.....one of the most bitter Unionists opponents has said his belief is that Scotland as devolution it will be independent by two thousand and two, mind you the Shadow Scottish Secretary says if Scotland doesn't have devolution there'd be independence double quick. There does seem to be a lot of agreement that independence is very much on the agenda of Scottish politics. HUMPHRYS: So let's take the other scenario then and some might say the more realistic one, that Labour wins...it's going to be based on proportional representation, as we know the election is for this new parliament, Labour wins about the number of seats the polls at the moment tell us they would, you win about the number of seats the polls tell us that ..suggest that they would at the moment. How, with whom are you going to work in that assembly. SALMOND: John, can I just say to you, I mean you've invited me to concede the next election and for the benefit of the programme I've done this, now you are inviting me to concede a second election, that we wouldn't win the assembly elections either..... HUMPHRYS: It's the lead story in the opinion polls you see, that's how..... SALMOND: What most are saying that a lot of people in Scotland believe that under these circumstances the SNP would be best placed to win, not just in the SNP, but in the Labour Party itself. Let's just say, I know the way you are inviting me to go so let's just say we're in the prospect that the SNP have done extremely well, but not the mandate to negotiate independence. Now my view is under these circumstances, there'll likely be a realignment of Scottish politics around the national question, there's no secret that there are people in the Labour Party, the Liberal Party,
there are even people in the Conservative Party who are prepared to say under these circumstances they think the best route for Scotland would be an independent nation. Now, why would that be, because politicians do like to decide on things like removing Trident from the River Clyde, restoring benefits to sixteen and seventeen year olds in Scotland, having access to Scottish oil and gas resources, to negotiating Scotland's position in the European Council of Ministers in the European Community. These are important issues in Scotland, none of them are provided for in Labour's Assembly Bill, all of them can be achieved by Scottish independence. Now in that context, I think there will be gravitation towards the independence position and it will come from beyond the ranks of the Scottish National Party. HUMPHRYS: In other words you would expect, you talk about a realignment, that means the Labour Party would break up in Scotland. SALMOND: Oh I think there are elements in the Labour Party who are basically supportive of the independence position but they are imprisoned within the British political structure of the present moment, I've believed that for many years. The opinion polls tell us and I put some store by them, not a great store, but some store I put by them, up to forty per cent of Labour supporters in Scotland actually believe in independence. HUMPHRYS: But you know, as a matter of fact, do you, that some MPs would leave the Labour Party, you know that would happen. SALMOND: I believe in the circumstances, which I've outlined, that's the SNP doing extremely well, but failing perhaps to get an absolute majority in a proportional system, then I think there will be a realignment of Scottish politics around the national question. HUMPHRYS: But that's just a kind of vague belief is it. I asked you whether you knew anybody.... SALMOND: Let me give you some evidence. I mean I've already said up to forty per cent of Labour supporters in Scotland are supporters of independence according to polls. There have been people who have argued under these circumstances that they would want to move further and faster, but from the Labour Party's own conference this weekend, we saw deep unhappiness about the commitment to Trident submarines, we saw the work fair plans have of Gordon Brown rejected by the Labour Conference. The important point is John, under Labour's assembly scheme none of these things would be in the provence of the assembly. It would be natural for a politician to say: look we're the representative of Scottish democracy, therefore we should have the power, that power can only come with independence. HUMPHRYS: It might be natural but we haven't seen it happen. We've seen members of the Conservative Party leaving to join Labour or the Liberal Democrats or whatever, we haven't seen any of these Labour members up in Scotland leaving to join you. SALMOND: In the last Parliament of course, a Labour MP defected to the Scottish National Party John, it would be difficult wouldn't it for somebody in the Tory Party in Devon to defect to the SNP, that's not one of our great expectations. HUMPHRYS: We don't have very long left. Aren't your activists right, your fundamentalists right, this whole devolution route is a terrible trap for you. SALMOND: Well the SNP position is vindicated by our electoral success over the last few years, we haven't just been successful in Renfrew, we took forty-five per cent of the vote Lithgow, in Livingston, in Kilmarnock in the local elections, no wonder Labour are nervous because the trend in Scottish politics is towards both the SNP and towards Scottish independence. HUMPHRYS: Alex Salmond, thank you very much. SALMOND: Thank you. ...oooOooo...