................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 11.2.96
................................................................................ HUMPHRYS: Well where does that leave Sinn Fein?. So far they have rejected all preconditions for negotiation, such as getting rid of weapons, and they flatly refused to condemn Friday's bombing. Mitchell McLaughlin is one of the most senior members of Sinn Fein and he is in our Londonderry studio now. Good afternoon to you Mr McLaughlin. MITCHELL MCLAUGHLIN: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: You've heard what Mr Bruton has to say there. Can you deliver, as he believes you can? MCLAUGHLIN: No, I think that Mr Bruton overlooks the crucial convergence of the role and influence of John Hume in his dialogues with Gerry Adams, and the involvement of Albert Reynolds, and the weight of the Irish government in constructing the arguments that convinced the IRA leadership in August of '94, and we have to reconstruct that Nationalist consensus yet again. Sinn Fein on its own, faced with the reality, and I think you know, one would equip oneself in the decision of last Thursday, we were looking at paralysis on the British side. The Irish side had delivered all parties to the negotiations. The British had offered, had promised that they could deliver the British and the pro-British elements to the negotiating table and they failed, and we were looking at a further fifteen months of paralysis because of the arithmetic at Westminster, and the role and influence of the Unionist parties in blocking meaningful progress. HUMPHRYS: Are you prepared to say to the IRA, those things that Mr Bruton said a couple of minutes ago, he wants you to say? McLAUGHLIN: Sinn Fein has a mandate. We represent people, people who suffer, people who bleed, people who want justice and people who want peace, and we are prepared to play our full role in conjuction with others in convincing people who resort to armed struggle that there is an efficient and an effective alternative to armed struggle, but we cannot do it on our own, any more than we could deliver IRA weapons. We didn't control them, we didn't have that power, and people were fundamentally mistaken to assume that we could. HUMPHRYS: But if you can't deliver on that, if you can't even promise what he was asking you for there, what can you deliver, what can you promise, what can you bring to this to get you back into the process? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, clearly Sinn Fein representing thousands of people on the island of Ireland have enormous influence, and we have particular influence within the Republican community, which Mr Bruton alluded to, but Albert Reynolds had the formula. Albert Reynolds recognised that it would have taken the conjunction of constitutional nationalism and Sinn Fein to bring about a scenario where the IRA leadership could be convinced that there was an effective alternative to their campaign, and we have to reconstruct that again, and this is why I regret what appears to be a precondition coming from Mr Bruton. That precondition will effectively prevent us building this alternative argument. HUMPHRYS: So what you're saying is that you want these talks to get going again while murderers are going around bombing people, is that what you're saying? MCLAUGHLIN: No, John. don't misrepresent me. I am saying that we can construct yet again the conditions which made it possible to have an IRA ceasefire. We can do that - we did it once and we can do it again, but we can't do it on our own, that is my point. HUMPHRYS: Well, we had a ceasefire, we then had a series of talks, not the all-party talks that you wanted of course, but we had a whole series of talks, but what came first was the ceasefire. Now what you seem to be saying - correct me if I'm wrong - but what you seem to be saying is, "We want to get back into all of that again, but the ceasefire comes later, take us on trust". MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know how you can assume that and I don't know where you're coming from. I have stated quite clearly that we can rebuild, recreate the conditions, and we have to come back to this point.Why do we need a peace process at all? Because we don't have peace, we don't have justice in our community, and we have to begin to bring people together and to marshal the alternative arguments to armed struggle, and unfortunately, unfortunately because over an eighteen month period the British government didn't join the process themselves and they made no attempt to bring the Unionists on board the peace process that was constructed over many years by John Hume and Gerry Adams, and by Albert Reynolds has collapsed. Now they have to go back to the drawing board, and we have to start to rebuild it yet again. HUMPHRYS: But how can you start to rebuild it yet again if you in Sinn Fein are not prepared even to do this, to say to the IRA, "Stop it, no more bombs, that was an end to it, it was a huge mistake - we condemn it" which is what the British government want you say - no more of it -
you won't even say that. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, let me make two points about condemnation. One is that I for every single situation that you want to present to me which you feel Sinn Fein should condemn I can give you an example. (interruption) Murders by the Loyalists or murders by the British government in which there were no condemnations, but the second point is probably more crucial to building peace in Ireland. Sinn Fein has a particular role and influence within Irish political society, and our function is to create a peace process in which we will bring the Republican community intact - not leave any section of it outside, bring it intact into that process, and when one looks at Irish political life and the numbers of parties that have come out of the Republican tradition, disassociated themselves at a particular point, and some of them have ended up in government, but the IRA have continued. Sinn Fein's function, Sinn Fein's modern definition of its role is to bring the entire Republican community into a peace process where we can have a political agreement to which we can all subscribe, and that is a very onerous responsibility which Sinn Fein takes very seriously. HUMPHRYS: So you can't lean on the IRA, you can't do what Mr Bruton wants you to do. All you can say is "Look we are a democratic party". Well, you take part in elections, you've got maybe ten per cent of the vote in Northern Ireland, much less in the Republic of Ireland, but that's it, that's the extent of your influence. If you cannot bring influence to bear on the IRA then, what are you for? MCLAUGHLIN: John, I'm not saying that we can't have influence within the Republic. HUMPHRYS: Well, you said you weren't prepared to risk bringing them in. MCLAUGHLIN: What I'm saying is I'm not prepared to risk people disassociating themselves from the political process, but we take the responsibility of maintaining the coherencey and the cohesion of the Republican family, and saying there could be no peace process if people were able to hive off or stand back from it and say: we are not interested. Sinn Fein will bring the entire Republican community into that process, but we need the active collaboration not just of Irish constitutional political parties, but the British government, and they stood aside and not only did they stand aside, they put obstacles in the way of the peace process..... HUMPHRYS: Alright, but let's not re-run history for the moment. Let's go back to... MCLAUGLIN: Well last Thursday was just as important as last Friday. HUMPHRYS: Well, many people would argue with that, but let's go back to what Mr Bruton has said. He wants you to call on the IRA to resume the ceasefire. Are you prepared to do that in very simple yes or no terms. MCLAUGHLIN: I will see Mr Bruton this afternoon if he wishes to discuss that matter with me.... HUMPHRYS: He doesn't want to discuss it with you, he wants you first to say it and then he'll see you. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, it he's setting pre-conditions, then he knows the experience of certain pre-conditions. HUMPHRYS: So the answer's no. You won't call on the IRA to do that? MCLAUGHLIN: What we will do is call on Mr Bruton. HUMPHRYS: But you will not say even this to the IRA, "Lay down the weapons now". MCLAUGHLIN: John, I'm not going to respond to that on air. I'm telling you that we will contribute as with others, and in conjuction with others, because I'm stating quite boldly on our own we're incapable of satisfying that pre-condition, and it is a waste of time as Mr Bruton himself said, but we will call with Mr Bruton this afternoon to try and devise a way by which we can bring that about. HUMPHRYS: Mr McLaughlin thank you very much.