................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.11.95
................................................................................ HUMPHRYS: This weekend the Irish Prime Minister has been studying a letter from Mr Major which is intended to breathe new life into the Northern Ireland peace process. It's stalled because Sinn Fein wants all-Party talks to get going now, without any preconditions. They say they've earned the right because the ceasefire has lasted so long. The British Government says the talks will not happen until the IRA begins giving up some of its weapons - a seemingly hopeless impasse. Martin McGuinness is one of the most powerful figures in Sinn Fein and when I spoke to him this morning from Londonderry, I asked him whether he was encouraged by Mr Major's new move. MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Well, I have to say that in the course of the recent months I have seen very little from Mr Major which would indicate that he is trying to get the peace process moving. The reality is that all of this is taking place against the background of a collapsing peace process. And,
what we need and what we have been telling everyone, in the course of recent months, is the British Government to recognise that this process needs a dynamic, and that dynamic must come from an actual date when All-Party peace talks will begin. HUMPHRYS: It could of course come from yourselves, and that is to say: we will accept the so-called Washington Three condition; and, we will suggest, we will strongly urge, the IRA to start talking about getting rid of their weapons, so that we can get into All-Party talks. MCGUINESS: Well what we've told the British Government and what we have told everyone else is that we wish to be part of a process which removes all the guns from Irish politics. It has become quite clear to us in recent months that the British Government appear only interested in removing the IRA guns from Irish politics and that is not good enough. And, we believe that the goal of removing all the guns is a very noble goal indeed, which the British Government should accept. HUMPHRYS: Well, it may or may not be but you don't have the support of Mr Bruton, of the Irish Prime Minister on that, it appears; nor, apparently, Washington. So you're on your own, aren't you? You've got to give on this. MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, the reality is that the British Government doesn't have the support of Washington or Mr Bruton. The British Government needs to recognise that we have to be involved in a process which is designed to remove all the guns from Irish politics. What is wrong with that? HUMPHRYS: Well, if you're asking me what's wrong with that is that Washington and Dublin don't see an equivalence between terrorist weapons - as they would describe them - and as the military's weapons. MCGUINNESS: Well, let's be realistic about this. Of course, everybody involved in this process, with the exception of the British Government and the Unionist political leadership, does wish to see the removal of all of the guns from Irish politics. They also wish to see All-Party talks begin. They wish to see a date when those talks will begin and in the course of recent months the President of the United States himself has said that by the time he arrives in Ireland he expected that All-Party discussions would have been underway. In reality, in the course of the next two weeks, he will arrive here and All-Party talks will not have begun. And I think that clearly in all of that there is a very serious message for the British Government. HUMPHRYS: But he knows and everybody else knows that they could begin if a start could be made towards decommissioning the weapons and that is down - not to the British Government, not to Washington, not to Dublin - but to the IRA. MCGUINNESS: Well, the fact is: it isn't down to the IRA. The reality is that what we have witnessed in the course of events in Ireland over the last fifteen months has all been about the decision of the IRA to call a complete cessation. We were told for many, many years that there was a circle of conflict in Ireland which could not be broken. In fact, the people who broke that circle were the IRA and everything else that has resulted from that has come from that IRA decision. So, what we need to do is focus everybody on the need to get All-Party talks started. The British Government have adopted, in my opinion, a very cynical approach to the international body, that aspect of the twin track (PHON), by saying that they wish that body to deal with Washington One and Two, process that for them and then hand the result of that to themselves. And they, then, reserve the right to pop (phon)
up Washington Three so effectively down the road - block our movement into All-Party talks. And, I think, that that is a very cynical approach which needs to be removed. HUMPHRYS: I'm not sure that people will quite understand all the talk of Washingtons One, Two and Three but what we're talking about basically is some sort of commission led by an American - George Mitchell, perhaps - which would discuss how the decommissioning of arms is to happen. Now, the question is: whether you would urge the IRA to co-operate with this, so that All-Party talks could begin but that at the same time that commission would talk/discuss how those arms are to be decommissioned. That's what it's all about, isn't it? And, what it needs is for you to say and Sinn Fein to say that's what we think should happen. Then, the logjam is broken. MCGUINNESS: Well, you see (phon), in effect, what the British Government are trying to do is have the international body deal with the less problematic aspects of the issue of decommissioning and they wish to retain for themselves the right to demand the actual decommissioning - or surrender, as we call it - of IRA weapons before Sinn Fein gets into talks. And, everybody knows, including the British Government, that there is no possibility whatsoever of that happening. That all of these matters must be a basis or an item on the agenda for All-Party peace talks, just as the proposal which the Ulster Unionists have made for the establishment of a convention, at an assembly at Stormont must be a matter for All-Party talks. At this point in time, what we're saying is that the British Government are running quite proactively on a Unionist agenda and giving succour to the proposals which have been made by Mr Trimble. And, so, effectively, making sure that the whole approach to the twin (phon) track is one which is loaded completely with British Government and Unionist feelings (phon). HUMPHRYS: People listening to this, I think, are going to be genuinely puzzled, partly because it is a bit confusing. But, also, because we're talking about the possible breakdown of a peace process and what that means, in real terms, is that people will start to be killed again. And yet, true democrats - if that's what we are talking about here - and you've said that that is what you are - can't sit around a table and talk about getting rid of those weapons. They will find this extraordinary. If you truly believe in peace, you won't be concerned with what the particular motives of any one Party is. At this stage, you will say: Right, we'll talk about getting rid of those weapons and we'll talk about the rest of it as well and get it sorted out. MCGUINNESS: Well, we are prepared to do that. HUMPHRYS: Not talk about getting rid of the weapons you're not? MCGUINNESS: Oh, absolutely. We are prepared to talk about getting rid of all the weapons. The difficulty at this moment in time.. HUMPHRYS: But there has to be a gesture doesn't there? There has to be... MCGUINNESS: Well, with respect the difficulty at this moment in time is the British Government are only interested in getting rid of the IRA's weapons and this attitude, this approach to the international body, has to be about getting rid of all the weapons. We have told the British Government and we've told the Dublin Government, that Sinn Fein is prepared to look at the twin track approach, that Sinn Fein is prepared to go to the international body and make a submission on getting rid of all the weapons. That has proved unacceptable to the British Government and I think it's very important that people understand that. HUMPHRYS: Isn't the reality that you have nowhere else to go? I mean, you could argue that the other Parties have nowhere else to go either. But, you have no support outside your own organisation. perhaps.
And, within the IRA, of course - for whom you may or may not speak - you have nowhere else to go? MCGUINNESS: Oh, I think, we have considerable support. I think that what you are ignoring is the fact that over the course of recent months, and for the greater part of the last fifteen months there is an Irish consensus in place which is demanding the beginning of All-Party peace talks. That consensus is being supported by the international community and I believe also by the administration in the United States. The people who are isolated here are the British Government and the Unionist political leadership. And, when it's all boiled down, what they're in effect saying to all of us is that they are not interested in real negotiations at this time. HUMPHRYS: If the worst happens and if this does all break down and if the IRA says we're going to start up again, would you, in Sinn Fein, you Martin McGuinness, say to them: No, don't do that? MCGUINNESS: Well, I sincerely hope it doesn't break down. HUMPHRYS: Of course, I understand that. MCGUINNESS: And, I see my role in all of this as doing everything in my power to ensure that it doesn't break down. And, over the course of the last couple of years, myself, Gerry Adams and all of us within Sinn Fein, have worked very, very hard to put in place a peace process which would be viable and which would have as a central element the need for All-Party discussions to take place. We're not going to let go of this lightly. HUMPHRYS: Right. MCGUINNESS: But there is a responsibility on the British Government and there is also a great responsibility on the political leadership of Unionism to recognise now that well into the second year of an IRA cessation that there is a demand in the international community and amongst our people that all of the Parties go to the negotiating table. HUMPHRYS: I take all that. MCGUINNESS: Sinn Fein has been ready and willing to do that for the past fifteen months. HUMPHRYS: I take all that. I take all that but you didn't answer my question. If, and you tell me it could break down - you began this interview by talking about the danger of it all collapsing - if that happens, will you say to the IRA: Do not start the killing again? MCGUINNESS: Well, as I said, in the earlier answer, my responsibility is to ensure that that doesn't happen. HUMPHRYS: Yes, indeed, but you're not answering the question, are you? If it happens - and you introduced the possibility that the whole thing might collapse, you brought that up right at the beginning in this interview- MCGUINNESS: Yeah. HUMPHRYS: If it collapses, will you say to the IRA - it's a straightforward question - will you say to the IRA: don't go back to the gun? MCGUINNESS: I will say to the IRA that I believe the IRA were involved in a very noble attempt to remove the gun from Irish politics and at the same time we saw a British Government and a Unionist political leadership rebuff the efforts of the IRA. Don't forget the most dynamic force- HUMPHRYS: And, therefore, it's okay to pick up the gun again? MCGUINNESS: But the most dynamic force in all of this: this entire peace process was a decision by the IRA to call a complete cessation of military operations. HUMPHRYS: Right. But, you're not answering the question though are you, Mr McGuinness? MCGUINNESS: Well, the question-The question is dealing with an issue which is hypothetical. HUMPHRYS: No, because you raised it right at the beginning of the interview. MCGUINNESS: No, I didn't raise it at the beginning. What I said- No. HUMPHRYS: You said-You said that talks may collapse. MCGUINNESS: With respect John, there is a difference between the peace process collapsing and an outbreak of conflict in this country. HUMPHRYS: Ah! MCGUINNESS: What I am talking about is the reality that we have had for some considerable time: a peace process which gave hope and optimism to many people in this country which has now effectively been destroyed by the attitude of the British Government. There is a big difference between that. HUMPHRYS: Right. Let me read you what Gerry Adams said if the talks break down, if the peace process breaks down rather we will have and I quote you "assert the supremacy of our strategy which is a peace strategy". So, in other words, are you saying that even if this peace process breaks down, as far as you understand it, the IRA will continue to observe the ceasefire? MCGUINNESS: I don't know what the IRA will do if the peace process breaks down. HUMPHRYS: I know you don't know but what is your view on this? MCGUINNESS: What I can say is reiterate the message which you quoted from Gerry Adams: Sinn Fein has a peace strategy. We have been working at it for some considerable years. We will continue to have a peace strategy even if the peace process breaks down. What the IRA does is a matter for the IRA. I am a representative of Sinn Fein. I am telling you what Sinn Fein will do. Indeed, we will continue to do to persevere, to attempt to get all the Parties to come to the negotiating table but we can't do this on our own. HUMPHRYS: And that is the message you'll deliver to the IRA: We will continue to do this on our own, even if it breaks down. MCGUINNESS: What I am saying is that Sinn Fein's message to everyone, not just to the IRA, is that Sinn Fein has a peace strategy which we will continue to persevere with, even if the peace process collapses completely, which it is in the process of doing at the moment unless we see a new attitude, a new approach from the British Government.