................................................................................ ON THE RECORD PETER MANDELSON INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 25.2.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Peter Mandelson, the Labour Party that we're looking at today, the new Labour Party, is that it - is the project now complete? PETER MANDELSON MP: The project won't be complete until we have arrived in government and had the opportunity to implement a programme to transform Britain, to transform our economic performance as a country, to build social cohesion in our country once again, to revitalise our political system and to build a constructive and a confident relationship with Europe. Now all that is a programme for the long-term, it needs to be underpinned by intellectually coherent policies but it also, to be sustained over that time, has to be supported by a broad coalition of support, a consensus across the country which embraces both the centre and the left of British politics and that's what we're about. HUMPHRYS: So there are more changes to make to the Labour Party itself, to the internal structures of the Labour Party, the way the Party operates? MANDELSON: Well, any organisation has either to modernise or die. Ironically, the Conservative Party, through the years has been better at modernising than the Labour Party. They modernised very successfully after the post-war years, they modernised again when Mrs Thatcher became its leader. In contrast, the Labour Party has been rather resistant to change in the past, indeed, we even flirted for a short time with death in the early 1980s. Now, all that has changed; Neil Kinnock came in, John Smith and Tony Blair following him, have transformed the Labour Party. We have almost a literally new Labour Party, not just simply in terms of our imagine and presentation but our organisation and all the democratic reforms that have taken place, the crucial introduction of one member one vote, but the policy changes that have taken place too. Now what we're doing at this stage is distilling those policies to create that coherent, a practical programme for government to transform Britain that we can put into effect when we come into office. HUMPHRYS: But there are those who view those changes with a degree of suspicion. Some say things haven't.... MANDELSON: Inevitably... HUMPHRYS: Inevitably, some people say things haven't changed that much and they point to the relationship with the Trade Unions for instance and they say - when - if - you get into power it will be the same old cosy relationship with the Trade Unions that has always existed. MANDELSON: Well that it most definitely will not be. I mean we've made two very dramatic changes. One is to reduce the strength, the weight of the Trade Unions at our Party Conference quite dramatically from the ninety per cent as it was two years ago to below fifty per cent as it is this year. What we're also doing very crucially, is building a mass Party of individual members, right across the country, who are not just coming into the Labour Party, in unprecedented numbers, indeed at the time of the next election you know, half our membership will be new. They'll have come into the Labour Party since Tony Blair became leader, not because they disagree with him but because they support the changes he's carrying through. Now what we've got to do is to make sure that we don't just have very many more members but we have more members actively involved in the life and work and campaigning of the Party but also making sure that the decisions of the Party are in their hands. And that is what is crucial and that is what everyone accepts, including, I might say, the Trade Unions who have been at the forefront of these changes. HUMPHRYS: But as you say the decisions are not yet in their hands because the Trade Unions control half the votes at the Party Conference. MANDELSON: They control below half the votes...just below half. But that's not true and I think crucially the individual members of the Party demonstrated, did they not, when we changed Clause Four of our Party Constitution, that was put to ballots of individual members right across the country, nobody strong armed them, nobody forced them to take the decision they did, they voted overwhelmingly by a margin of nine to one in favour of the New Labour Clause Four. And that I think is very very important indeed. HUMPHRYS: So are you saying then that as it stands at the moment it should remain, that's to say nearly half of the votes at the Party Conference ought to be in the hands of the Trade Unions, is that what you are saying? MANDELSON: Well we're just implementing that change now. Going below fifty per cent will take place that this year's Party Conference and I think it's reasonable to see how that works. You've seen, you've heard already in your film Tom Sawyer, the General Secretary of the Party saying it's a dynamic relationship, I would call it an evolving relationship. And I think the Trade Unions themselves will want to see how these changes pan out in practice. But I think one thing is very very crucial indeed and that is that we create thousands of links between the Labour Party and the Trade Unions and that means thousands of links with individual Trade Union members bringing them into a membership of the Labour Party and I'll tell you why this is so important. A mass membership just doesn't give us strength of numbers and much needed additional funds for our Party finances, it makes us more representative as a Party, it puts us in touch with ordinary public opinion across the country. HUMPHRYS: So? MANDELSON: And that's why we want very many more individual members in the Party taking the decisions which are important, as they already do incidentally, for example, in the selection of Members of Parliament, that is now done on the basis of one member one vote and that is a crucial relationship between the Labour Members of Parliament and the grassroots of the Party and the individual members rather than the activists and rather than the old style structures that dominated our Party in the past. HUMPHRYS: Indeed, indeed, old style structures and you say you want to see that evolve, how - how do you want to see that evolve, how do you want to see it change? MANDELSON: I want to see a mass membership which is very much more active and which on crucial decisions, quite possibly, the individual members of the Party are able to have their say in the future, in the way they did over the change of our constitution and the introduction of the Clause Four last year. I think that was a very important precedent, it enfranchised and gave power to the individual members of the Party, which is something that they are not going to give up. There is going to be no reversal of that and I think in the case of the Trade Unions too, we saw how many Trade Unions last years over Clause Four, directly consulted their individual members. I think that was a very healthy development and I'm sure that they all want to go further in that direction in the future. HUMPHRYS: Indeed, indeed. Old style structures and you say you want to see that evolve - how? How do you want to see that evolve - how do you want to see it change? MANDELSON: I want to see a mass membership which is very much more active, and which on crucial decisions - quite possibly - the
individual Members of the Party are able to have their say in the future in the way they did over the change of our Constitution and the introduction of the Clause Four last year. I think that was a very important precedent. It enfranchised and gave power to the individual Members of the Party which is something that they are not going to give up. HUMPHRYS: Right. MANDELSON: There seemed to be no reversal of that and I think in the case of the trade unions too we saw how many trade unions last year over Clause Four directly consulted their individual members. I think that was a very healthy development, and I'm sure that they'll want to go further in that direction in the future. HUMPHRYS: But, as that membership grows - assuming that it does continue to grow - you'd want to see the relationship between the trade unions and the Labour Party change with it. In other words,
there would be more power putting it very crudely, very unsubtly, with the members as opposed to with the trade unions. MANDELSON: That is the direction in which we're going. That's what the trade unions have supported and as long as we have the mass membership and the active mass membership who are involved in what we're doing, then, we will be able to move further in that direction. But, I don't think that those are changes that are on our agenda today or tomorrow. We're only just implementing the reduction of the trade union bloc vote to below fifteen per cent this year. HUMPHRYS: Sure. Indeed. But, ultimately, one member one vote would not be a pipedream from your point of view? MANDELSON: One member, one vote has arrived. It is in operation. It is an operation- HUMPHRYS: In the sense that we've been talking about. MANDELSON: For key decisions like our Constitution, and especially in relation to the selection of Members of Parliament it has arrived - it will strengthen, it will develop. There will no going back on that and that is absolutely crucial for people's understanding of the direction in which the Party is going and its unity behind our Party Leadership. HUMPHRYS: One interesting effect of that change - the change in direction there - is that you would be seen as much less of a class-based Party than you are now, and therefore much more compatible with the Liberal Democrats. Would you like to see the relationship - your Party's relationships with the Liberal Democrats - evolving? Becoming closer across a range of issues? MANDELSON: I think it's very important as I said right at the outset that the programme that the next Labour Government - should we be elected - implements is supported right across the country. We want a consensus of public opinion across classes, across professions, right across the country. Now that means building a coalition of support for what we're doing which embraces both the centre and the left of British politics, the leftward-thinking half of the country. Now, that I think does involve co-operation with people - not just the Liberal Democrats by the way - but co-operation with all those who want to sign up and support our programme of national renewal. It means people in the business community for example, it means people in voluntary organisations, it means every group, every interest, every individual that wants to see our country transformed for the better in the future. HUMPHRYS: But, let's stick with the Liberal Democrats for a moment, and talk about what happens after the Election. I'm not here talking about pre-Electoral pacts and all stuff. You've ruled all that out time and time again. How would the relationship, how might the relationship with the Liberal Democrats work? Assuming that you got a majority at the Election. Maybe, even a decent majority, so you wouldn't actually need them. But, nonetheless, how would you want to deal with them? MANDELSON: Well, I don't think it's a matter of Electoral arithmetic or Parliamentary numbers. HUMPHRYS: Absolutely. MANDELSON: I mean the principle of co-operation is important and the principle with building a coalition of support for what the Labour government is doing right across the country is very important indeed. We have already seen have we not an example of how it's worked in the last week. I mean there are common strands of belief between ourselves and some members of the Liberal Democrats. There are overlaps of policy. HUMPHRYS: Sure. MANDELSON: There's an identity of interest. HUMPHRYS: Indeed, I understand that. MANDELSON: For example, on the Scott Report, you saw Robin Cook and Menzies Campbell holding a joint press conference. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, I did. But, this is you in the position, isn't it? United against a common foe. I'm talking about you in Government, how you might work with the Liberal Democrats in Government. MANDELSON: And what is good for Opposition would be even more important to achieve, should opportunities arise in Government at all. Now, let me just make one thing absolutely clear because you stated it as given. Both Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair have made it absolutely clear that they're not interested in pacts or deals, or coalitions, or individuals taking positions up here, there, or anywhere else. What we're talking about is the principled co-operation between likeminded people in Parliament and across the country to achieve the things that we think are so important for our country. And, I think, what in practice what that means after the next Election is should we be elected, a Labour government coming in with a programme of policies which have to be implemented over the long term, which I hope the Liberal Democrats will feel able and willing to support. Now we've still go to hear from many of the Liberal Democrats about the sort of support they're prepared to give to our programme. You've assumed that just because Paddy Ashdown has ended equidistance between the Parties, that means he's signed up to the Labour programme. It doesn't actually mean that, and I think that the onus is on them to say what they believe and what they will support. In Parliament I think there are opportunities for co-operation that we need to harness. HUMPHRYS: Given that you've looked at them for that support that you would expect this principled co-operation as you put it, might we see Liberal Democrats in Government Ministries? MANDELSON: I don't think that arises and I think as Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair have ruled out talk of you know coalitions and people, or positions, personal positions in Cabinets or anywhere else. They've ruled it out, they don't want to address that, and I don't think the issue arises now. What I do think is important-. HUMPHRYS: Now. Might it at some stage in the future ? MANDELSON: It may do, but it's not something that I think that arises in the discussions that may take place in the future or the dialogue that is taking place between ourselves, not just with the Liberal Democrats. Let me stress that John, but with all those right across the country who support what we're doing, and that is what it is important to keep our minds very much focused on throughout all this. HUMPHRYS: For you to have that sort of principle co-operation with the Liberal Democrats, staying with them for a moment, suggests that you would have to embrace some kind of electoral reform. Are you open to that? MANDELSON: I think, it's very much more important to talk about the strength and depth and coherence of our programme and what we're doing for our country and making sure that the Labour Party is fully electable....and wins the trust of people before we start talking about...rather than talk about electoral expedience or short cuts into Government. I also don't think that electoral reform is a touchstone of the new politics. But my mind has moved on this. I'm much more open to the debate about electoral reform than I have been in the past and of course if you're going to have a referendum on the matter in the future, it's a debate that all of us have to engage in. HUMPHRYS: And what you would support is some sort of alternative vote system, perhaps - rather than first past the post system? MANDELSON: Well I think the principles of electoral reform, in getting the key questions right in our mind, are important at the outset. You want a fair system. We want a system that produces good and effective government but we also want a system that produces good MPs. Now, I think, the problem with Proportional Representation - which is why I'm not in favour of Proportional Representation - is that although it's theoretically fairer - there's a strict correlation between votes and seats - it will produce a plethora of minority Parties. HUMPHRYS: Right. So which system might you prefer? MANDELSON: Oftentimes, extreme Parties that won't make for stable government. I also think it's very important that we don't have a list system, a centrally imposed, nationally drawn up list system, replacing the very important link between individual Members and Constituency Parties. If we were going to move towards a different and fairer electoral system, I think that we should consider a system in which people..individual voters are able to express a first, second and third preference in their Constituency Parties - in their Constituencies. HUMPHRYS: You're talking about here a fundamental realignment of British politics, aren't you? MANDELSON: I'm talking about the need to accept and realise that if we are going to transform Britain, truly. If we really are going to equip our country to face and take on those huge, economic changes and challenges that are facing us, if we're really going to transform our society and create the sort of one-nation society that we want, if we're going to revitalise our politics in this country, we are not only looking at a programme for the longterm, but a programme that in itself the Labour Party - however strongly and competently it leads it - must have strong backing and consensus of support across the country behind it. If that means realignment of people across the country in support of what we're doing, then, yes, I am looking to that. HUMPHRYS: And if you get into government there would be enormous strains on any new government - there are enormous strains, particularly...(interruption)...precisely. Enormous strains and particularly given as you're committed to doing so much in the first year. Do you want to change the way the Government operates? MANDELSON: I think, it's very important to realise that if we are elected after the Election nobody is going to give us a honeymoon for a split second. The Tories, whatever shape they're in - I mean we see at the moment, wheels flying off the wagon in all directions but they may get their act together under Michael Portillo, or whoever it will be after the next Election in Opposition. The Tory Press won't give us a moment's rest. We've got to make sure that we have our programme up, ready to go and our ability to take control of Government, rather than allowing the machinery of Government to take control of us, right from the word 'go'. HUMPHRYS: So, you might have super Ministries, for instance? Much more, in some respects, more Presidential style type of government? MANDELSON: Well, I don't think that's the same thing, at all. I agree with my colleague, Alan Simpson, who said that we don't want a Presidential system of government. HUMPHRYS: But super Ministries - that sort of notion? MANDELSON: Well the point about super ministers is that a Prime Minister can't bring about all the change and push forward the Government by himself. He needs colleagues working collectively with him and there are, of course, in Government, what's called the 'wicked issues'. The sort of elusive issues which are difficult for any single Department or single Minister to get hold of. Let me give you an example - something that concerns me very much, indeed and that is the plight, the position of young people in our society, young people who fail in our Education system, people who are casualties of broken families, young people who resort to juvenile crime. Now, that requires action right across Government. It requires cross-Departmental working which super ministers, as you put it, might take the lead in, together with the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: Super minister of youth then, for instance? MANDELSON: It may well be. HUMPHRYS: The sort of things you've been talking about this morning are pretty radical. You might not find it too difficult, too easy to get all of this through. And, I'm thinking about one of the suggestions that you've already made that we've heard about from your book because it was in The Guardian yesterday. And, that is this idea of a five thousand pound dowry - if that's the right word - for married couples. Perhaps, unmarried couples, you might want to clear that up. Is this a kind of new moralism that we're seeing now? MANDELSON: It's not a new moralism. It's nobody preaching any particular way in which people have to conduct their lives. But, what it is is recognition that if we want to build a strong society the foundation and cornerstone of that society are the way in which people act and work and behave together in families. My concern about young people in this country stems very much from the breakdown of family life. And, I believe it's very important that young people..many of the young people in my constitutency who don't have wealthy families, who don't have savings, who don't have parents who are in a position to give them the best start in life. HUMPHRYS: Even the unmarried ones? MANDELSON: No I think what we're looking at in the proposal that we're making is people who come together, who make that commitment to one another - and I think that marriage is probably the simplest and probably the only.... HUMPHRYS: So that is pretty moralistic then. HUMPHRYS: It is not a question of morals. It is a question of recognising how the overwhelming majority of people choose to spend their lives, get married and to bring up children. The point of this is not to promote marriage but it is to promote the sort of stable, strong family life that provides the best environment in which to bring up young people in this country. HUMPHRYS: I can almost see the smoke coming out of the ears of various members of your Party, even as you speak, and as you've been speaking for the past twenty minutes, or so. MANDELSON: John, I think you are behind the times if you think- HUMPHRYS: Well, there are those - we saw some of them in the film there - those who are deeply suspicious of you and all your works. What do you say to those members? Do you say: well, go off and join Arthur Scargill's new Party, or what? MANDELSON: Well I say first of all to you that the couple of people who have spoken the way that they did gave their views before the extracts of our book appeared in the Guardian and before they even.... (interruption)... well I would suggest to them that they wait and get the book, they can have a free copy from me and they can read it for themselves before they start jumping to conclusions. What I am trying to do is, not only to represent my Party in the best way that I can to reflect the anger, the anxiety and the aspirations that people have in Hartlepool and the people that we speak for as a Party, to do everything I can to get our message across effectively, so that we maximise our support, get a thumping great majority and have the chance at last to put into affect the policies and the programme that our country so desperately needs. HUMPHRYS: Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. MANDELSON: Thank you.