................................................................................ ON THE RECORD INTERVIEW WITH KEN MAGINNIS RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 17.3.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Is the government in the process of making another concession to the IRA? Some MPs here and in Northern Ireland think it is - and we'll be talking to the Ulster Unionists. Could this be a fudge too far? That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART NEWS HUMPHRYS: But first, Northern Ireland. On Friday night the leaders of the different parties were handed a document which was intending to inject new momentum into the drive towards a permanent peace. It seemed to suggest that the issue of getting rid of paramilitary weapons shouldn't be allowed to block discussions of other matters at the all party talks in June. And - for the first time - that Dublin should have a say in matters that had been regarded as purely the concern of Northern Ireland. The Ulster Unionists were furious. Ken Maginnis is their security spokesman. Good afternoon to you, Mr Maginnis. KEN MAGINNIS: Good afternoon, John. HUMPHRYS: Sir Patrick Mayhew said yesterday morning that when you'd had the chance to have a proper look at the document, considered what was in it at some length, then you'd calm down and you ought to calm down. Have you calmed down? MAGINNIS Well, I haven't got terribly excited about the document. There's nothing really surprising in it, except, that as usual with documents prepared jointly by London and Dublin Governments, it's full of ambiguities and it's those ambiguities which picked up by the press and put forward in the form of a question to politicians like myself, which cause anxiety and sometimes cause a fairly - how would I put it - angry reaction. One of the things that has occurred here is that we've been bounced with a co-ordinating committee involving as well as the parties, the two governments and that, of course, is seen as giving the Irish Government an entry into the affairs in Strand One, where it has no say whatsoever. Now, that may not be the case, but it is the fact that this sort of all things to all men document causes more problems than it resolves. HUMPHRYS: Yes, Strand One for people who don't understand the somewhat arcane terms that we're using as the internal affairs of Northern Ireland, and Dick Spring - the Deputy Prime Minister of the Republic - assured us this morning that there was absolutely no question of Dublin getting involved in that. MAGINNIS: Well, that is reassuring, and the other thing of course that needs to be dealt with and which is crucial to any progress, is what in fact we mean by addressing the question of decommissioning. Now, we had asked both governments to expand on the statement that they'd made earlier about addressing decommissioning. Does this mean that we go in, we sit around a table, and we say "well decommissioning is important ad we'll look at it in three months' time, in six months' time". Is that addressing it? Or is it in fact something, as we feel, that must be dealt with in a substantive way at the very outset. Because, unless it is our way, then we will not be able to make progress. Let me just put down that marker. We can't make progress while the whole question of decommissioning and what happens to this vast armoury of illegal guns and explosives is still unresolved. HUMPHRYS: Well again, this morning Mr Spring said yes, it would be a priority, it would be at the top of the talks. You smile at that. Does that suggest that you don't believe that assurance? MAGINNIS: Well, as I say, I'm an Ulster Unionist and Ulster Unionists tend to speak bluntly and honestly and straightforwardly, and I just wish we could get rid of this round the side of the house, in through the back door approach that we constantly have to grapple with, as far as our dealings with the two governments, and indeed some other parties, is concerned. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's be clear what you mean when you talk about dealing with decommissioning in a substantive way. Now, are you saying...let's assume first of all that they're true to their word, that this is the first item on the agenda, are you saying that you must have something very clear out of that discussion before you will move on to anything else and if so, what is it, what is your - as they say - bottom line on this, what is the minimum you will accept on decommissioniong? MAGINNIS: Two points - first and foremost, those representing four point eight per cent of the total electorate, Sinn Fein and IRA, with other paramilitary organisations who have even less support, much less support at the ballot box, have held this society to ransom for twenty -five years. Therefore, we must resolve that problem first of all. We initially, as a party said there needed to be total decommissioning. Government then ameliorated that and said, no there has to be a properly scheduled agenda and the first.... of arms, the first fears of that agenda must be implemented before talks. Mitchell then came along and once again watered that down to a degree and said, no, let's get into talks and then you can deal with decommissioning. Now, what we are basically saying is we've made two adjustments, we have tried to accommodate a political process, but we can't get beyond the stage that we will have to have a properly scheduled agenda in place and see some tangible evidence that that can be implemented in real terms, tangible terms. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, what does that mean, what does tangible evidence mean, what do you want them to do? You say you're original position was you wanted them to get rid of their weapons, full stop. You've pulled away from that under a certain amount of pressure. Where are you standing at the moment? MAGINNIS: Well, we've got to see weapons, we've got to see an agreement that there will be a decommissioning body in place, perhaps Mitchell Strand Two, if I can call it that. It may not be Mitchell,
it's unlikely that it would be a politician, HUMPHRYS: This is Senator George Mitchell, from the United States who chaired the Commission? MAGINNIS: Yes, that's right. Because it's a technical issue, disarmament and verification of the process, and you'll remember it going back to nuclear disarmament, how that was handled and you will remember again that political progress was not actually possible until you had some sort of tangible evidence that decommissioning was taking place, that's the important issue and that is what is required. There is no good in us saying, right we'll get a political agreement all nice and neatly boxed and tied up and the ribbons on it and find that the people who have held us to ransom with illegal weapons and explosives for twenty-five years, are able to do that yet again. HUMPHRYS: Does your reading of the document, now that you've had time to study it since Friday night, does it suggest to you that the Government shares your view on that? MAGINNIS: It's quite ambiguous on that particular point. It does not clearly state that that is the case. Now we've heard a assurance from Dick Spring, and I welcome that, neither myself or David Trimble or any other member of the Ulster Unionist Party is seeking to put obstacles in the way of progress. But what we're trying to do is to ensure that the right foundation is laid, a foundation on which we can truly build a lasting political agreement and something that will bring the stability that is required within Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: If they are being ambiguous, they're being so deliberately, politicians tend to use ambiguity as a weapon in one direction or another. What do you think they're up to then? MAGINNIS: I think they're leaving certain options open so that in fact, as I said using the analogy we can be trundled round the side or in through the backdoor into something that we haven't really seen what is on the table. This time we must know exactly what we're approaching, how it's going to be approached and what use can be made of the process before we get involved. Remember what happened in 1992. We went into that warning government, cautioning government saying for heaven's sake don't allow this process to start and then break down because society out there will be disillusioned and it's on that disillusionment that paramilitary organisations are able to progress their violent ways. HUMPHRYS: You say that you've been pushed around a bit until now and they want to trundle you around the corner, out of sight, persumably where you can do no damage in this next stage. If you are not prepared to be trundled around the corner. MAGINNIS: And we're not. HUMPHRYS: And you're not. Then what are you prepared to do about it. How do you stop them trundling you away. MAGINNIS: Well of course Ulster Unionists are the largest, form the largest political party in Northern Ireland and while we want to be reasonable and we want to have constructive dialogue with everyone, our own government, the government in Dublin and other political parties who adhere to constitutional methods, we can on the other hand say: hey look you go and sort out the difficulties that you're creating before you ask us to engage with you. And that's basically what we're saying now. It appears that Dick Spring is prepared to do that, I would like to hear Sir Patrick Mayhew say that in fact the fundamental difficulties that we have can be set aside. HUMPHRYS: You sound as if... MAGINNIS: ...because we have real assurances. HUMPHRYS: You sound as if you are prepared to trust Dick Spring rather more than Sir Patrick Mayhew. MAGINNIS: Well I hope I didn't give that impression. I'm prepared to use my judgement, my colleagues are prepared to use
theirs and it will be based on that judgement and twenty five years of very often sad experiences that we will decide how and when we can move forward. Now let me say again - we have no desire to hold up the process - we've no desire to put obstacles in the way but when we find other people putting obstacles or diverting the proper path that we should be following, then of course we will be quite severe with them, including the two governments. HUMPHRYS: In other words, if you don't get what you want and some people would say these two governments are being very reasonable because it's terribly difficult to find - difficult that's a huge understatement - to find a way around this. What you are actually saying is from now on you do it our way, you accept the rules that we want for these all-party talks or we won't play with you at all. MAGINNIS: John it's not playing. HUMPHRYS: No, no, of course it's not. MAGINNIS: If you want to put it like that then of course we have got that sort of determination but I think that's overstating the case to a degree and you've got to look at the way in which we handled affairs during the 1992 talks. We were the one party that put a comprehensive and substantive paper on the table in Strand One, that was in terms of the internal government of Northern Ireland, we made all sorts of arrangements and concessions within that to try and reassure minority parties. In Strand Two we were again the one party that put a substantive paper on the table proposing how relationships between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic could function and we put on the table also a bill of rights at that time which we believed would be helpful. Nobody even bothered to open that quite mighty document. HUMPHRYS: That was then, that was then. Now what about the future. MAGINNIS: And we've got to learn lessons from then John and that's all I'm saying. We have been constructive, we are determined to get what the people of Northern Ireland have asked for again and again at the ballot box those who have never resorted to violence, society must have
ownership of any peace process, it must not be down to paramilitary organisations. HUMPHRYS: You say you have been constructive, you also say that you are now prepared to be obstructive if things go the way you fear, perhaps they might go. And what I'm asking you is in what sense might you be able to stop the British and Irish Governments doing what they appear to want to do. For instance you will persumably take part in the elections but after that will you go along to the talks, if the agenda doesn't suit you? MAGINNIS: We, the Ulster Unionist Party, being the largest party in Northern Ireland, will be core to anything that is happening and I don't think that either Sir Patrick Mayhew or Dick Spring will be able to lift David Trimble and myself and a few others by the scruff of the neck and throw us out. We will be there seeing that there is fair play for the people of Northern Ireland, we will be there to see that their wishes as expressed again and again at the ballot box are not overridden and within that context we'll be there to try to make accommodation with any other party who wishes to adhere to constitutional principles. Surely you can't ask more than that of us. HUMPHRYS: Come what may you'll be at those talks? MAGINNIS: Pardon? HUMPHRYS: Come what may you'll be at those talks? MAGINNIS: Sorry.. HUMPHRYS: Come what may - just a one word answer if you wouldn't mind - come what may you'll be at those talks? MAGINNIS: We will be core to the process you can be assured of that. HUMPHRYS: Ken Maginnis, thank you very much indeed. MAGINNIS: Thank you.