................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 11.2.96
................................................................................ HUMPHRYS: The one constant feature of the Northern Ireland peace process has been the way MPs of all parties and all persuasions have been willing to give peace and Mr Major a chance. But is there now a case for more debate on what sort of approach the Government should adopt. Let's consider that with three backbench Conservative MPs - Barry Porter, David Wilshire and Nicholas Budgen. Each of whom is committed to the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but who have different thoughts on where to go from here. Let me start with you Mr Porter. What's your view now? Should the British Government continue trying to deal with Sinn Fein? BARRY PORTER: Of course, it should, but it should bear in mind that Sinn Fein has now been obviously marginalised and to put it in football league terms, it's very much in the Fourth Division. Obviously, they don't have the influence they said they had at one stage over the IRA, they won't even condemn, as we've heard, that dreadful incident the other night and I don't quite see where they go from here, but I've been one of those who've been fairly, not sceptical, but I had my worries about the way in which the peace process was going, but was quite willing to give it a chance and obviously I think we should do everything we can to see that it can be reinstated, but quite how we do that on the Sunday after a Friday of murder and mayhem, I don't quite know. HUMPHRYS: Mr Budgen, what's your thought on that? Should we continue to deal with Sinn Fein ? NICHOLAS BUDGEN: I don't see how we can continue to deal with Sinn Fein because we've given up, partially given up our exclusive responsibility for Northern Ireland and we've made the Irish Republic's Government a partner in this matter, and if the Republic are not prepared to deal with Sinn Fein, I don't see how we can. HUMPHRYS: And what about you, Mr Wilshire, what do you believe? DAVID WILSHIRE: I believe that the British Government has got to go on dealing with anybody and everybody who are democrats. So if Sinn Fein are democratic and will renounce what happened on Friday night..... HUMPHRYS: They won't though will they.... WILSHIRE: ...but if they will, then I would support continuing to talk to them. But of course, the moment that they renounce what happened and denounce it from last Friday night, they become totally marginalised. You heard that evil spokesman for the bombing, because until anybody from Sinn Fein denies it, they must be held to be part of what has been going on. You heard him say that they also have a mandate, well their mandate is less than ten per cent, as you yourself rightly said. Their mandate puts them in a sort of marginal sort of Green Party category. So without violence they are nothing, so let's talk to them, but they're very marginalised if they are Democrats. HUMPHRYS: That's the point isn't it. Yes, go ahead. Mr. Budgen. BUDGEN: It seems to me there are two points about dealing with Sinn Fein. One, there plainly is a moral danger in negotiating with anybody who's associated with murder. Perhaps some people are prepared to take that risk if they thought that Sinn Fein was able to carry with it the IRA. And that had been previously the assumption. It is now clear that Sinn Fein do not carry the IRA, so it seems to me that the purpose of talking to them has gone. HUMPHRYS: Alright, where do you go from here? If you don't talk to them, what do you do? BUDGEN: Well, my view is we set up a proper system of local government in Northern Ireland, we explain to the Nationlist community that they have a perfect right to stand for election in the system of local government and indeed they're likely to win seats, many sats in some areas, and we try and use a system of integration of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom and ensure that the rights and liberties of the Catholic minority are properly looked after. HUMPHRYS: But you accept the killing that would inevitably go along with that? BUDGEN: Well, I'm afraid, it seems to me that the aspirations of the Unionists and the aspirations of the - particularly the violent Republicans - are irreconcilable and I don't see that the peace process was ever likely to come to a solution that was acceptable to all of them. And that being the case, it seemed to me that Sinn Fein was always likely to say in the end "sorry, we can't carry the IRA" and the IRA break off as a violent splinter group. HUMPHRYS: Barry, Barry Porter hurry up. PORTER: Well I would agree with that and one of the problems now is whose word can we trust even if the..if Sinn Fein had any influence with the IRA - which they haven't - of the ceasefire was supposed to be permanent, a permanent renunciation of violence for political purposes. HUMPHRYS: Well, they never used the word permanent but there we are. PORTER: Yeah, I'm not getting into the Irish wordsmiths (sic) argument, because what they said that was the end of violence. Now they've gone back on that word, even if we were to negotiate directly with the Provisional IRA - which I trust we never will, be even if we were, how on earth can we accept their word that they would never resort to violence again. HUMPHRYS: Alright, so the next step then, we heard what Mr. Budgen had to say, what do you think is the next step. PORTER: It needs a lot more thought about a system of government for Northern Ireland, because that would assume there would be an acceptance of the status quo, that is the province being a part of the United Kingdom in some form of local government. That was canvassed a number of years ago, rolling devolution (sic), Enoch Powell wanted the system of local government, that would need to be looked at. But the first thing that we've got to do is to ensure that there is peace and it's all very well for Nick and David and I to sit here pontificating about peace in Northern Ireland, I don't live there, Nick doesn't live there and David doesn't live there. I would like to see some demonstration by the people of Northern Ireland, both Loyalist and Nationalist to show that the last seventeen months haven't been a total waste of time. HUMPHRYS: Where do you think we go from here Mr Wilshire? WILSHIRE: Peace is as important, if not more important after Friday, so a peace process of some sort must still be the priority, the need is more pressing. We had the Irish Prime Minister suggesting that all the IRA have to do is to say: "sorry, we won't do it again" and the process will continue as it was. That is utter nonsense. You cannot forget what happened on Friday. You have to take account of that. So a way has to be found to further the chances of peace and all party talks remain the only feasible way of making progress. So the challenge still is how you get people round the table. The Unionists made it crystal clear, for better or worse, I don't take sides, the Unionists said they wouldn't come round a table before elections. If they wouldn't come round a table before last Friday, if the Irish Prime Minister or anybody believes that they will after it, they've really got to be very loopy indeed to think that that's a possibility. So where do we go from here is to try and establish the mandate for all those who are Democrats, who want to be involved and I therefore still back the process of democracy. HUMPHRYS: So in other words, all party talks come after elections, as Mr Major said, after he had the Mitchell Commission Report. WILSHIRE: I still cannot see any other way of testing who has the support of the community. HUMPHRYS: Even though the point was made by the Irish Prime Minister that if you have those elections in this particular climate it's going to do more harm than good because the whole purpose of an election is to do down the other side, all the rhetoric that goes with it and everything else. WILSHIRE: Well I do wish a foreign Prime Minister would stop trying to tell us how to run the internal affairs of our country as far as elections are concerned. HUMPHRYS: Come in there Nick Budgen. BUDGEN: I mean I rather agree with David Wilshire's point about that but of course the past has been sold by the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Downing Street Agreement as well. We've made the Republic of Ireland our partner in this matter and when we now find that they're taking a harder, more Unionist line than we are it's no good then saying: "oh well never mind about the view of Mr Bruton." HUMPHRYS: So you are not persuaded by the Irish Agreement, or you are persuaded by the Irish proposals... BUDGEN: I'm not persuaded by either of those agreements but they having been approved, it seems to me that we are then bound by the position that the Irish Government has as our partner, and we can't then say to them well you may not be prepared to negotiate with Sinn Fein but we are. HUMPHRYS: So, what are you going to do then, what do you say to...what does John Major say to John Bruton tomorrow afternoon, or tomorrow morning? BUDGEN: I think he has to say: "I accept that it is no longer possible, no longer..unless conditions change entirely, to negotiate with Sinn Fein". That doesn't stop us having the elections that are proposed and I would expect that Sinn Fein would continue to get only nine per cent of the vote or whatever. I mean the negotiations with Sinn Fein were very odd to begin with, because Sinn Fein was only getting a sort of vote, if you like, that the Green Party gets in this country. HUMPHRYS: Barry Porter. PORTER: One must remember what these elections are for, unique. They are there to elect a body which are to be negotiators, which is what everybody wants. It would have no legislative power, it would have no executive power, it would have no administrative power. But what it would do is give a mandate to the Unionists to sit down at the table with whoever else was elected and that seems to me to be a tremendous ..... and we should go ahead with that. BUDGEN: I see that. HUMPHRYS: Barry Porter, David Wilshire, I'm afraid we must end it there and Nick Budgen, thank you all very much.