................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 5.5.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. In today's programme... an extended interview with the Deputy Prime Minister Michael Heseltine. What CAN the Tories do to win back their support in time for the General Election? That's after the news read by TRIONA HOLDEN. NEWS HUMPHRYS: What chance do the Conservatives have of holding onto power when that election is held?. Early last week Michael Heseltine admitted publicly for the first time that they could lose if they carry on fighting among themselves. A couple of days later came those terrible local elections - the second worst defeat in Tory history. And yet that very evening Mr Heseltine said he was confident they WOULD win. I spoke to him earlier this morning at his home in Northamptonshire and I began by asking him whether the dangers of disunity have now gone away. MICHAEL HESELTINE: I think disunity is a very dangerous
concept in presenting the Party that is in government or seeks to be in government. Now, the truth is of course, that on the issue of Europe there are divisions right through the whole of the British political scene. It's very interesting. Today's newspapers are full of stories about what the Euro-sceptic wing of Tony Blair's Party are threatening to do, and what they're threatening to say. Now we have the same anxieties within the Conservative Party. They've always been there, but the fact of the matter is, taking in balance the European issue, there is a very clear view that we have more to gain inside Europe for Britain than outside. HUMPHRYS: But you are perceived to be much more divided than the Labour Party rightly or wrongly. HESELTINE: I think there's an element of truth about that for the very obvious reason that we're in government and therefore the spotlight is on us. Now that is going to change in this material way - that people are going to be looking in the context of the coming General Election at both Parties in a much fairer balance, and the divisions within the Labour Party not just on Europe I must say, but on a wide range of issues will become starker and clearer. And so indeed they should, because of course Labour's European policy is to do all those things on a more dramatic and permanent basis that people say they're most concerned about. HUMPHRYS: But when people are asked by the polling organisations, eighty-one per cent of them apparently think that you are divided. Far far fewer think the Labour Party is divided. How are you going to deal with that problem? HESELTINE: The first thing to do is to set forward clear policies. That we have done. Everybody knows what our position is in Europe. We are determined to be there at the centre, negotiating for British self interest. We're not prepared to accept those things which we think are against British self interest, and sensibly and obviously we're not prepared to say we're going to sign up to a Single Currency before we know the conditions or the timing, or even whether it will happen. And, John Major brilliantly at Maastricht negotiated that opt-out position. We've not proposed to put costs on British industry which will lose jobs. Now, on both those things the Labour Party are absolutely clear. They are committed to the social contract, they're committed to backing the concept of economic and monetary union. they're committed to a Minimum Wage. All of these things are damaging to British interests. HUMPHRYS: The things you've just talked about you have done - it hasn't worked. HESELTINE: Well, yes, but then you've got to ask the question: where does this issue rank in public judgement about government? And this, I think, the Prime Minister very clearly set out in the interview he gave after the Local Government results. The position is quite clear. We, like virtually every government of our sort in the world have had to take difficult decisions. That's what happens to you in Government. There are tough decisions to be taken. We did take them, we took the right ones, and the benefits of those decisions are now coming clearly through as Britain leads Europe out of recession. And, as more and more international acclaim praises what is happening here more and more companies locate here because they know that within Europe we are the enterprise centre. HUMPHRYS You ask where it ranks. The answer is it ranks very high indeed because that is where people perceive the disunity to be. That's at the core, the root of the disunity. HESELTINE: Yes, but you are begging the question that disunity is the number one issue and it isn't the number one issue. HUMPHRYS: It is because it's dividing. HESELTINE: It is an issue, but it is not the number one issue. HUMPHRYS: But it is the issue that is dividing you more than any other. HESELTINE: Yes, that is - I agree with that, and that's the issue that is probably dividing all Parties more than any other but it is not the number one issue upon which electors make their judgement. HUMPHRYS: Well, you said disunity could cost you the election. HESELTINE: I think it does have a dangerous undercurrent associated with it. I don't want in any way deny that because it's self evident as a case. But, I do want to re-emphasise that the thing that most influences the Electorate and rightly so is their judgement as to how the economy has been performing and whether that has been turning itself into improvements in people's living standards. And, from that flows the mood, and the mood is what actually matters when you are facing a General Election campaign. Now, it's very important to realise that because we took those tough decisions the Government has been under criticism. People have been disenchanted for very obvious reasons because they themselves have had to bear the consequences of that regime which was necessary, and which is now working. But, the mood will change - is changing. You can even see that in Local Government elections. You can see it in the opinion polls, you can see it in the Local Government by-elections. The Conservative support is beginning to edge up, not as anything like where we want it to be. But, the mood and the trend is moving, and the economic forecasts are quite excellent. HUMPHRYS: But look what's happened just over the last few weeks and months this Spring. Mr Major has made a speech appealing for unity himself, setting out his position very firmly on Europe. We've had a White Paper. It hasn't worked, it hasn't papered over those cracks, it hasn't brought the Party together. HESELTINE: Well, you've then got to ask the question: whether as you get closer to an Election, colleagues in the House of Commons, particularly, and of course their supporters in the country, recognise that there is a focus now, and the focus is the Election campaign. And, what- That's a simple question isn't it? If unity and Europe are the interwoven issue that centres on the questions you are putting to me, what are Conservatives trying to achieve in giving the appearance of disunity within the Conservative Party? What are they trying to achieve? I know what they're likely to achieve, and that is they could open the door of Number Ten Downing Street to Tony Blair, whose Party's equally got its problems with division. But, on one certainty is far more likely in Europe to do all those things which the British public and particularly the Conservative Party doesn't want. He will introduce the Social Chapter, he will introduce a Minimum Wage, he will take us into a Single Currency. These are the things the Conservative Party are most preoccupied by. Those are the things that Tony Blair is committed to and those are the things that the Euro-sceptic wing of the Conservative Party might - by appearing to be disunited - might make it possible for the Labour Party to win when what they want is exactly the reverse. HUMPHRYS: It's a point that you've made before and it's a point that you make vehemently often. But it seems not to be getting across. Indeed, quite the opposite. The debate is becoming more, rather than less, polarised isn't it? HESELTINE: I think that you've got to take into account the context. There is a moment when the Conservative Party focuses upon an Election and when that happens - and I don't say it has happened yet - but when it happens you will find that the Conservative Party will recognise that the disunity factor is something within its own control, and I believe will cope with. HUMPHRYS: Well, perhaps, but we're less than a year away - we may be much less than a year away, we may be six months away from an Election - and what are we seeing? We're seeing this morning news that Teresa Gorman has put down a motion saying there should be a referendum, not on a Single European Currency, but on whether Britain should stay in Europe. The unthinkable is now being thought by many people. The debate is going exactly the wrong way for you, isn't it? HESELTINE: Well, I don't think it is going the wrong way. How are we going to get the inward investment which has created three-quarters of a million jobs in manufacturing in this country if we're outside Europe? How are we going to do that? How are we going to protect the interests of the City of London, the third great centre of world finance, if we are outside the Single Market? How are we going to protect this country's interests from what Europeans decide if we're not part of the debate? There's no answer to these questions. HUMPHRYS: There may not be and you ask them all the time, but it's missing the point, isn't it, because that is not getting home to the people you want it to get home with, and they are moving in the opposite direction? I mean, sixty-six Conservative MPs voting for a motion that would have in effect taken us out of Europe. HESELTINE: Yes. Come on, this is-was a Private Member's Bill. It is one of those gestures in politics, as exactly is Teresa Gorman's proposal. But I don't think you'll find that in the new mood of the Conservative Party, this is going to be the prevailing influence. I think the Prime Minister's rallying call is what the Party wants to hear and believes in, and I have no doubt at all that if you look back, and you've got to recognise one thing about the Conservative Party - amongst many - it is the single most successful political Party in human history. No Party has governed a country longer than the Conservative Party has governed this country. And that tells you something about its capacity to work out what is in its interests and, as it sees it, in the nation's interests. And the Conservative Party recognises that perpetual disunity on an issue of substance is a debilitating feature. It knows it instinctively, but so do all its members. Although you are absolutely justified in putting these questions to me now, what I'm asking you to do it to project yourself forward into the twelve months that I believe, and hope, is available to John Major's government and that is the context in which I think you'll see a mood change. HUMPHRYS: I'd prefer for the moment, if I may, to project myself back. Two years ago, two years ago, a year ago perhaps, you and Mr Major wouldn't have had to make the kind of speeches you've been making recently, which is to say: We must stay in Europe. It was taken for granted that we would stay in Europe. The issue of whether or not we should stay in Europe wasn't being raised. Now, it is being raised which is why I suggest to you that in a sense you're whistling in the dark to keep your spirits up when you talk about how things are going to change before the next Election. They're not, are they? HESELTINE: Well, I think, and of course it's always very dangerous talking about immediate news - because you can be a little out of touch simply because things are happening as we're talking - but I think there have been a significant number of statements, even in the last twenty-four hours, from people who might be regarded as being more questioning of Europe than others, pointing to the need to unite and fight the Labour Party, because they can see - they understand - the Labour Party represents the worst extremes of the Euro policies that they dislike. HUMPHRYS: I'm missing out on those. The ones I see and hear are the people who are saying: The ratchet towards Federalism is going up and up and up all the time and we've got to force that ratchet back again. And, other people in the Party are saying: no, we musn't. And, the gap between those two wings of the Party is getting wider and wider and wider. HESELTINE: I think you're talking of tiny numbers of people at the more extreme element of debate. If I can make this critical point. We, in Government, had to work out our policies for the forthcoming Inter-Government Conference. We published a White Paper. That White Paper was agreed by the Cabinet. Everybody knows the Cabinet represents all strands of opinion in our approach to all matters, but particularly to Europe. It was unanimously agreed without any any difficulties of any significance at all and so that is what the Party believes in. There is the policy. Now, I'm not going to say, as there is in the Labour and Liberal Party, there isn't a debate on the backbenches, and even in the Constituencies. Of course, there is. It is one of the great issues of our time. But it is quite wrong to believe that the overwhelming majority of the Conservative Party has divisions on Europe. HUMPHRYS: Tiny numbers of people? A hundred MPs suggesting that they will produce their own manifestos on Europe when it comes to the Election? HESELTINE: No, no. Come on! No, no. I mean this is take a sort of an extreme sense of individual comments and build it into something much bigger than any- either of us have any reason to suppose it would be. HUMPHRYS: A hundred isn't small. HESELTINE: No, but you-Where does the hundred come from? Who has said? Who? HUMPHRYS: The 92 Group. HESELTINE: Yes, but the fact that there are a hundred members of the 92 Group doesn't mean to say that all members of the 92 Group are going to produce the sort of manifesto that is seriously different to the Party's policy on Europe. I mean, after all, take the very obvious point I make. There are significant members of the Cabinet who would represent the strand of opinion that is associated with the 92 Group. They have great influence with their friends in the 92 Group. So, there's no grounds for thinking that there's going to be a serious number of Conservative MPs saying seriously different things. But why not look at Anthony Wedgwood Benn, or Austin Mitchell, who said in black and white terms, that their manifestos are going to reflect their views. They've already given black and white commitments to views which are totally alien to what Tony Blair's saying. So, if it did happen that there were the odd Tory MP, there will be just as likely Labour MPs and the country will have to judge which Party has got the best policies from the Cabinet or the Shadow Cabinet to govern this country. And on Europe, the Tories are streets ahead of the Labour Party in being closer to public opinion. HUMPHRYS: Right. But it's not just, it's not just the Euro-sceptics who are rocking the boat, is it? We had the Chancellor, Mr Clarke last week, doing much the same. He said to a Select Committee that the Government is sympathetic to Monetary Union. Now, that's a red rag to a bull, isn't it? .
HESELTINE: Well, what is the Chancellor to do. He didn't ask to appear before this Select Committee. If he appears before the Select Committee, he has to give answers to questions. He has to give truthful answers to questions. And everybody knows that Ken Clarke is a leading Member of the Government. He speaks for the Government as Chancellor on this matter and he answers questions as honestly as he can. That is-There's no possible harm in any of that. What he says is immensely sensible and it is consistent with the White Paper that we produced which deals with this matter. HUMPHRYS: So the Government is sympathetic to monetary union? I thought it was supposed to be neutral. HESELTINE: No, no. It is neutral. HUMPHRYS: Well, you can't be both sympathetic and neutral, can you? HESELTINE: You-you-you can be sympathetic in certain circumstances. But, we don't know the circumstances, OK? HUMPHRYS: Ah, well, but that's not what he said. HESELTINE: Well-Well- HUMPHRYS: He said the Government's position is that although sympathetic, we reserve the right to make a decision etc, etc. HESELTINE: Of course. But that is the same thing. That is the point I'm making. HUMPHRYS: On the contrary. On the contrary. HESELTINE: Well, of course, because you cannot- You cannot make a decision about something for which there's no certain time scale, for which there are no certain conditions and you don't even know it's going to happen. Now, you can say - and Ken would have done - that we will play a role in the discussions that are going on about whether there should be, because those discussions are fundamental to Britain's self interest. But, that doesn't commit you to exercising the option that John Major negotiated. And it is- I mean, frankly, this sort of nitpicking of every odd word- HUMPHRYS: Oh. HESELTINE: -doesn't serve. Ken Clarke is totally committed to the position and I've heard him say it many times in private, let alone endlessly in public, that his mind is open. I've also heard him say that are conditions in which he would not recommend Britain joining a Single Currency. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well, of course, there would be. But if anybody comes away with the impression, having heard what Mr Clarke said at that Select Committee, that the Government is sympathetic towards monetary union, they are wrong, are they? HESELTINE: Well, I'm not going to get into a position where you get a comment, which is so tied down that you compare it with the words that Ken Clarke used on a particular occasion. HUMPRHYS: That is the only way we can assess what you-There is no other way of doing it. HESELTINE: No, no. No, no. This is the mischief of the media. HUMPHRYS: No, no! It isn't mischievousness at all. HESELTINE: It is the mischief of the media. The Government's policy which Ken and I support is clear. We are part of the negotiating procedures exploring economic and monetary union. We have not committed ourselves to it, the Prime Minister has secured an opt-out for it if we want to use it, and we will make that decision when we have the facts in front of us, black and white. Ken believes that, I believe it, all the Cabinet believe it. HUMPHRYS: Alright. So, there is absolutely no question. You are, as we speak, neutral - not sympathetic - neutral? HESELTINE: We are in the discussion for Britain's self-interest. We will determine Britain's self interest when we know the facts. HUMPHRYS: Lord Blake drew a comparison last week - the week before last - to the divisions between the divisions that exist now in the Conservative Party and the divisions that destroyed the Conservative Party a century and a half ago over the Corn Laws - Lord Blake, a very distinguished Tory historian. Can you have any sympathy at all for that comment? Do you see what he's getting at? He's not on about it happening in the next few weeks or the next few months but after the next Election. You happen to lose the next Election - and of course, that's a possibility - you face a very serious situation. Do you see any merit in that? HESELTINE: Well, what do you think the purpose of those questions asked? I mean, what you're trying to get me to do is to accept a hypothesis- HUMPHRYS: No! I'm trying to get you to- HESELTINE: -in order to build-in order to build a story which says 'Heseltine says this and that'....escape. HUMPHRYS: I'm trying to get your view. HESELTINE: I can tell you my view - it's very simple. I'm in the business of winning the next Election. HUMPHRYS: I understand that. HESELTINE: I think, it would be a disaster for this country if we were to reverse all the great reforms and to prejudice Britain's competitiveness under a Labour Government. It would be disastrous. Now, that is my position. I am not prepared to be put in a position where you say 'Yes, but suppose'. Why should I make such an assumption? I don't work on such assumptions. What do I gain from it? HUMPHRYS: Well, the reason- Alright. Let me tell you why I put that to you. That is because there are many people in your Party - many senior, many responsible people - who say there actually is something even more important than winning the next Election. And, that is the Conservative Party, putting the interests, as they see it, on this issue of Britain first. And, in order to do that we must take a certain view on Europe because there is nothing more important facing this country today. HESELTINE: OK. Sorry. HUMPHRYS: It is serious for Lord Blake who is a serious individual. HESELTINE: Let me take it as serious as you put it in that context. So, therefore, as I hear you, they say we need to lose the next Election so that Labour can introduce the Social Chapter and Minimum Wage and take us into a Single Currency? HUMPHRYS: Yes. And after that_ HESELTINE: Is that the argument? And, then, the Conservatives can, apparently, say well we disagree with that. HUMPHRYS: Then, the Conservatives can reform, perhaps, and a policy that they believe is best for Britain. That's what somebody - This isn't me suggesting this thesis. HESELTINE: I know you're not suggesting it but I'm just exposing the lunacy of that assumption that you actually put a Labour Government in power to do those things which are the least attractive for the people who've done it- HUMPHRYS: But, doesn't this- HESELTINE: And, that is political madness. HUMPHRYS: Doesn't this help explain though why with the closeness of the Election people aren't rallying - healing over this division - as you want them to? HESELTINE: No, I think it explains why they will rally and why they will become united on the policies of the Government because the starkness of the alternative is so appalling. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Let's look at another reason then why people may not vote for you in the next Election and that's a question of competence - the Government's competence. Now, if you go out there in the street this morning and say to people: we've had very competent Government for the last few years, I suggest to you that many of them will fall about laughing and say: Get away with you. It isn't competent. Look at the errors that have been committed. HESELTINE: Well, every government has its difficulties. Life is about difficulties in the context we're now talking. People make mistakes in their home lives, in their industrial lives - even, their public commitments to social activities. HUMPHRYS: So, people- HESELTINE: People make mistakes. They all do it, we all do it. The issue is whether in the main, in the thrust, in the broad we got the judgments right. I tell you we got the judgments right and twelve months from now the country will see that. And, you can see why they will see it. Up to now, their living standards have been squeezed. That's the consequence of the over-expansion that took place unjustifiably in the 19-late Eighties, early Nineties across the world. Virtually, every government - Canada, America, Japan, France, Spain, to name obvious ones - fell. Chancellor Kohl held on by one vote. John Major got the largest vote in the history of the Conservative Party. We took those tough decisions and we did ask people to bear the consequences of it. We don't in any way run from that. Indeed, in many ways, we are proud to defend it because why we took those decisions was to protect the essential fabric of a caring Conservative society. We took them to protect the Health Service, Education, the elderly, the unemployed. As Government revenues fell, we had to find ways of protecting them but now the benefits of that are flowing through. Tax cuts, interest rate reductions, the benefits of building societies' merger, the benefits of the TESSAs maturing, the inflation under control - what is it? Three-quarters of a million people more employed. HUMPHRYS: Alright. HESELTINE: The highest level of Employment in Europe, the Exports at all-time level, inward investment flowing into this country. You can see today the benefits that are flowing from those tough decisions. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, and you tell me that and people say well, that's perfectly true. But, I'm not talking about the tough decisions, I'm talking about sheer competence. I mean, we had Michael Puller (phon), the Tory Leader on Gloucester Council saying after the elections: it was those idiots at the top that cost me my seat after twenty years. Edwina Currie - I was talking to her yesterday morning - and she said: you know, you kinda look for banana skins to slip on. It happens all the time. We're in the middle of a crisis over beef at the moment that needn't have been a crisis many people say. It's the sheer incompetence at the top that seems to bother a lot of people. HESELTINE: Well, anyone who thinks that there was any way of avoiding a crisis over beef after the analysis about the linkage - the potential linkage - hasn't been in politics. It was to me - and, it still remains - the most difficult political issue I've ever seen a Government have to ------. HUMPHRYS: But, you've made it more difficult. HESELTINE: No, no. It's simply not the case. The fact is it is a very difficult issue. We've had - what is it? - now since eight years ago the Americans banned British beef, five years or so since the Canadians banned British beef. Chris Patten, the Governor of Hong Kong, a British colony - has banned British beef and the nation states of Europe have banned British beef. There's virtually not a country that has not banned British beef. This, undoubtedly, has caused great difficulties for us as a Government, for the farming industry, for many companies associated with the industry. But, the idea that in those circumstances you could have avoided a difficult political situation is just naive. HUMPHRYS: Well, but it's the way you've handled it since then - that's the point. That's what a lot of people-Look at what happened on the famous Monday at the twenty-second last - a fornight ago. In the morning, the papers were being briefed that the Government was going to take retaliatory measures against Europe over the ban. Rifkind- HESELTINE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but you've got-No. No, but it's wrong! HUMPHRYS: Can I just finish this? Then, you can tell me. Then, you can explain. Mr Rifkind- HESELTINE: Even at the beginning you've got it wrong. HUMPHRYS: Well- HESELTINE: What actually happened was that Malcolm Rifkind was asked whether we were considering- HUMPHRYS: Ah, before that, before that people had been briefed that there were going to be retaliatory measures. Well- HESELTINE: Well, you're saying that they'd been briefed. I don't know about this briefing. I'm only telling you that the thing that started- HUMPHRYS: You did know, didn't you? I mean- HESELTINE: If it had been true. But, I mean, is it true is the first question? HUMPHRYS: Well, Malcolm Rifkind didn't seem surprised about that. But, he refused to rule it out. That's the point. HESELTINE: Well, that's the point. That is exactly what has happened all the way through this issue. Now, do you know where the thing really blew - where the story really blew? - is after we had come to Parliament as quickly as we could to give them the facts, as we had them, at that time, a Minister was asked whether we had looked at options. Well, of course, we look at all options - Government looks at all options. Did you look at the extreme options? Yes, we looked at the extreme options. Do you mean to say you're thinking of culling the herd? We looked at that. Rejected it but before we knew where we were there was a headline saying: four and a half million cattle to die. And, that is where the spread of anxiety from this country to the Continent went. Do you know that on the Continent the sales of beef in many countries are lower than they are here now? HUMPHRYS: Well, I'd like to go into that in much more detail but we don't have very much time left for it. So, I'll let you get away with that. Let me just ask you though about what John Townend (phon) has said that is to say: if they don't lift their ban within three weeks, we ought to ban European beef. What do you think to that? HESELTINE: Well, I'll answer it exactly as Malcolm answered that other question. We are looking at and have been looking at a range of options. That we must do. HUMPHRYS: So, are we still considering a retaliatory ban? HESELTINE: John, can I-can I just say this to you? I'm not in the business on this programme of answering your questions in a way that will provide you with a headline but will provide the foreign newspapers with a headline. HUMPHRYS: Well, what about British people? HESELTINE: Wait a minute, wait a minute! HUMPHRYS: People in Britain are concerned about this. HESELTINE: And, therefore - and, therefore, make our task harder. We live in a simple, single world today. Everything I say - of course, has its resonance with the British people, but it - has its resonance with the populations whose governments we want to persuade to help us. HUMPHRYS: Oh. HESELTINE: And, it's no use thinking that you can sort of take a simplistic, immediate, tough line which is contained within this island. It is not. It immediately has its effect on the politicians and statesmen who, themselves, have got to take decisions. So, that is why we have made it absolutely clear the preferred solution is diplomacy. HUMPHRYS: Right, that's the preferred solution. HESELTINE: Exactly. HUMPHRYS: But-. HESELTINE Don't think you are now going to get from me anything which exacerbates the position, however. We all feel-. HUMPHRYS: Well what I read into that argument - just tell me if I am wrong... HESELTINE: We all feel frustrated by this process but one must not in politics allow your frustrations to override your judgments. That's for Oppositions. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well fine, then, in that case I think you answered my question because - tell me if I'm wrong - what I read into that is you're saying: No, let's not even think about retaliatory measures because that-. HESELTINE: I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I said that- HUMPHRYS: Well please clarify that. HESELTINE: I have made it quite clear we have considered and are considering other measures. Malcolm Rifkind said exactly that. But, like Malcolm, and I say it now, I am not prepared to be taken to the point where I could damage Britain's prospects of persuading other governments as to how to act. HUMPHRYS: We are going to have an Election within the next year. That is something we can be absolutely agreed upon. We're told this morning that you're planning a big advertising campaign. You're spending a million pounds on a big advertising campaign in which you're going to come over all humble and accept that things haven't been quite as good as they might have been, is that so? HESELTINE: I was telling you three or four, five, ten minutes ago that we took the tough decisions. They were the right ones but they were not easy and people felt the consequences - I told you all that. You kindly quoted the speech I made earlier - well, the beginning of last week now. It said it all. I've said it, the Prime Minister has said it, we've all said it, there's nothing new about that. But, of course, we are now moving into an
Election climate and what have we got to do? We've got to put the spotlight on Mr Blair and his colleagues. Look at this extraordinary thing over Child Benefit in the Mail on Sunday today when they're trying to wriggle off the hook of the fact that they are going to have an Education Tax. Gordon Brown gets up and says: We're going to penalise the poorest in the land for trying to give a better chance in education to their kids. What do we get? We get some unknown spokesman of the Labour Party trying to wriggle out of it because Blair's been put on the hook. HUMPHRYS: Right, so you're going to turn up the heat now. This campaign, this advertising campaign apparently is going to happen this summer. Does that suggest that you think you may be forced into an early Election? HESELTINE: No, we don't think we will be forced into an early Election but we have an Election coming and we're going to win it, and we're going to use all the proper resources available to us to make sure that the British people realise that we have the most excellent economic prospects. And, the certain way to lose it is to put Mr Blair into power, to give the unions back their privileges, to put taxes up and to undermine all the reforms we've done. If Labour knew how to improve Education or Housing, why don't they do it? They're in power in Local Government, why don't they do it now? HUMPHRYS: So, you predict that you'll be there until the bitter end do you? HESELTINE: I don't regard it as the bitter end, I regard it as the dawn of John Major's fifth government. HUMPHRYS: The dawn of a new age. The dawn of a fifth government. But you'll be there until - what? - May of next year, June of next year even. HESELTINE: Whatever the Constitution provides and whatever the Prime Minister judges. HUMPHRYS: And after that Election, will you still be there, you personally? HESELTINE: Well, I think- HUMPHRYS: Given that the electors-. HESELTINE: I think there's a sporting chance that
the electors of Henley will continue to exercise the good judgment they've
deployed for so many years. HUMPHRYS: And you haven't thought of taking an early bath (phon) yourself, have you? HESELTINE: No I haven't, I love it. As long as I can be of help I think that this is a wonderful political career to have had the privilege of enjoying and I think that the opportunities for this country today are more exciting than I've ever seen and to be at the centre of it is wonderful. HUMPHRYS: Ah, yes, as you say the centre of it. But, at the helm I see one of your 'friends' - put the word in inverted commas if you like - quoted in one of the papers this week - "The Spectator", I think it was saying: As to the leadership, Michael hasn't given up. Michael never gives up, never, never, never. That was the quote. HESELTINE: How have you taken so long to get to that question? HUMPHRYS: Is he right, never give up? Never, never, never? HESELTINE: I can't. I don't know how you have managed to forbear to ask this ridiculous question so long? The fact is I'm the Deputy Leader, the Deputy Prime Minister under John Major, and that's where I hope to stay until the Election. After the Election he will decide what he wants to do with me. I have never doubted and often repeated my view that he will be the Leader and will win the next Election. I'll try and help him to do it. HUMPHRYS: Michael Heseltine, thank you very much indeed. HESELTINE: Thank you very much.