................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 3.12.95
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Sir James, can we be quite clear what the party is about. Sir Alan Walters seemed a little bit confused in that answer we heard a minute ago. Is it a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty that you want - full stop. SIR JAMES GOLDSMITH: I must step back a bit. We've had a referendum. Please remember that the Treaty of Rome was passed by an Act of Parliament in 1973 under the Heath Government and there was a referendum in 1975 under the Wilson Government. So the idea that you cannot have a referendum on something which has already taken place is palpable nonsense because that's exactly what occurred in going into Europe with the Treaty of Rome and voting via a referendum to stay in Europe in 1975. Now I'd like just to take you through very quickly, if I may, what's happened since then. Prior to the Treaty being approved by Parliament, in the Heath Government, there was a White Paper and the White Paper stated, very clear, and I'm quoting "there is no question of any erosion of essential national sovereignty. No question of any erosion of essential national sovereignty." Now that is what Parliament...on that prospectus Parliament voted and everything else took place, including the referendum, that's what the people decided on. Now what has in fact happened on sovereignty. How do you measure on sovereignty. What is the essence of sovereignty. The essence of sovereignty is firstly...are the laws which are enacted by Parliament, valid and supreme in this nation. In a nation. Secondly, are the borders controlled by Government, by elected Government. Thirdly, is foreign policy and security under the control of the legal Government of the country. And finally is the economic policy run by the Government for the nation. Now in each one of these criteria, and they've got to be the criteria of sovereignty. In each one we have given up or are giving up all rights. HUMPHRYS: Right. That has happened, as you say. We did have a referendum on whether we should stay in Europe and we voted to stay in Europe, absolutely clear but now your referendum is saying "let's go back to a Treaty which if we voted against it. If we now said let's scrap the Maastricht Treaty, you wouldn't actually take us out of Europe but would mean in practice, almost certainly, that we couldn't stay in. So you are asking people in effect to vote on something they've already voted on once and there is no mood in this country to pull out of Europe. GOLDSMITH: No. I do not agree with you at all. The referendum took place about the Treaty of Rome, about staying in Europe on the Treaty of Rome and on the basis of no loss of sovereignty. Since then we've had the Treaty of Maastricht. The Treaty of Maastricht was forced through Parliament, against the will of the Euro-Sceptics. It was forced through because there was no change, there was no alternative, people had no right to vote for or against, they either had to vote for the Labour Party or for the Conservative, both of which were peddling Maastricht and it is a discontinuity of the Treaty of Rome and not a continuity... HUMPHRYS: Alright but let's... GOLDSMITH: I'd like to, if I may, point out why it's a discontinuity. Can I because I.... HUMPHRYS: Don't take too long because we want to get on... GOLDSMITH: I'll try not to take long. I'll be very quick afterwards but it's very important that people should understand where they stand. Today there are thousands of pages of regulations and directives which are created each year and which have the power of law. Created in Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxemburg. Now, do those...are those supreme over British law or is British law still supreme. Well this is what the court itself, the European Court of Justice has said, the essential characteristics of the community legal order, which have been established, which have been established are in particular its primacy, its primacy over the law of the Member States. In other words, British law as passed by Parliament is no longer supreme, it is thousands of regulations and directives passed in Brussels, in secret, by unelected bureaucrats who are now dominant, supreme in this country. HUMPHRYS: Right. That has happened. If you want it to go no further than that. Which clearly you don't, I know you want to roll back but if you want it to go no further than that, surely you are acting against your own interests. We heard one MP, or prospective candidate talking there after the other saying: "but what Sir James Goldsmith is going to do is take votes away from us and we are as sceptical as he is." GOLDSMITH: Well this is false argument and I will tell you why it is a false argument. But if I can just finish on this point of law. You say it has happened, it has not happened, it is happening everyday, it has happened yesterday, it has happened.... HUMPHRYS: I accept that. GOLDSMITH: And if you just take Lord Denning, what is his quote "no longer is European law an incoming tide flowing up the estuaries of England. It is now like a tidal wave bringing down our sea walls and flowing inland over the fields and houses to the dismay of all". What is more. Those laws which are determined in secret, by unelected bodies like the commission, are interpreted by a thing called the European Court of Justice which is a political court. Only four out of fifteen judges would qualify as judges in this country. HUMPHRYS: Alright. But you are taking a position, a principle position here and you clearly feel very strongly about it but it's taking you away.. GOLDSMITH: I'm taking a practical position. HUMPHRYS: ...you're not going to get it through. GOLDSMITH: I will tell you why I'm taking a practical position because the General Election in this country is a masquerade, it is a farce. What is the purpose of these people competing in a General Election so as to get the theoretical control over the law on foreign policy and economic policy when they have transferred it and have agreed to continue transferring it, they are no more than regional countries. HUMPHRYS: You are not.... GOLDSMITH: Their General Election is of no importance. HUMPHRYS: But you are not the first person to sit in a studio like this and make these arguments. There are plenty of Euro-Sceptics. GOLDSMITH: But I am the first person..they haven't been able to do anything about it and there's some excellent. HUMPHRYS: They've tried to take their parties with them and some of them have pushed them in a direction that they believe is going in the right way. GOLDSMITH: Some of them are superb and many of them want a referendum. HUMPHRYS: But you're going to damage their cause. GOLDSMITH: No I'm not. They have not been capable of forcing through a referendum which brings the powers of sovereignty back to this nation. They would like to, they fought for it, but they have failed and we must recognise that failure and the point is that whoever wins the election will have no power in this country. And therefore we must try something else, we must absolutely make it imperative. HUMPHRYS: So what is the test then. Let's take a specific example. A candidate like David Shaw, you saw him on that film, who is about as Euro-Sceptical as you are, deeply suspicious about the whole European venture. You will put a candidate against him, will you not, because he does not want a referendum on Maastricht. The effect of that may well be that he will lose his seat, you will have a Labour candidate, a Labour MP in that constituency who's very enthusiastic about a European venture. GOLDSMITH: But it's irrelevant whoever wins the Election. HUMPHRYS: So, you don't care if David Shaw loses his seat? GOLDSMITH: I don't know David Shaw. I'm sure he's an admirable man but as far as I'm concerned the two British political Parties are fighting about power that neither can get because both have been willing or are willing to transfer to Brussels and, therefore, it is of no importance. If you take economic power, you've go to - I must underline this - to show to what degree this election is of no interest. And, that's why I don't really care who wins. What I want is this nation to win. HUMPHRYS: You don't care who wins. GOLDSMITH: Not in the least. I want the nation to win. At the moment, if the question is: who has the power? Britain or Brussels? I am for Britain and not for Brussels. I don't want the power to be in the hands of a bunch of ... HUMPHRYS: But this is entirely destructive, in that case, because you know you can't win. GOLDSMITH: It is not destructive, at all. What the destruction is is the destruction of a nation by integrating it, infusing it into a supernatural state, which is controlled by a bunch of unelected technocrats who, themselves, are dominated by Germany. And, just listen to Mr Tietmeyer, Governor of the Bundesbank, German Central Bank. On the nineteenth of October, a few days ago. What did he say? A European currency would strip individual member nations of their sovereignity, over financial and wage policies as well as in monetary affairs. The European currency would, inevitably, imply further steps towards political union under which Member States would enact a common fiscal policy. HUMPHRYS: So- GOLDSMITH: So if they don't have control over financial affairs, wage affairs, monetary policy or fiscal policy, who cares whether they're in power. HUMPHRYS: But, you don't- let me be quite clear about this - you don't care how much damage you cause to people who, fundamentally, agree with everything you said here this morning? GOLDSMITH: What I have said is what we want is for the people of this nation, who have voted to go in in 1975 on a false prospectus, for two parliaments have voted to enact on a false....... I want them to have a right to vote. If they want to go into a super national state into which all the nations are fused that is their right, which I would respect completely. But, if they are not given that right and the power is transferred then, that in my view is tantamount to treason. HUMPHRYS: Strong words, strong words. GOLDSMITH: Strong words, can there be anything stronger. I mean, you see, people don't understand. They don't follow what's being said..... HUMPHRYS: Well that's a bit patronising isn't it. A lot of people take a very close interest in what's going on in Europe. GOLDSMITH: Alright. Let me give you a few quotes. Tenth of October Karl Lamus, Chancellor Kohl's.... HUMPHRYS: Foreign Policy Advisor. GOLDSMITH: That's right. What does he say? He says there's little point in talking to Britain. The best policy is to present it with facts it has no choice but to accept. HUMPHRYS: But, you can go around selecting as many quotes as you like, from as many- GOLDSMITH: But these are from the people who are running it. HUMPHRYS: Well some of them are but would take profound exception to the sort of things that Karl Lamus has said - and have done. GOLDSMITH: Well, certainly not the European Parliament. HUMPHRYS: What I'm addressing...the point that I'm addressing here is the effect that you are going to have in this Election and what you are saying, quite clearly, is: I don't care how much damage I do to people with whom- GOLDSMITH: Not to people, to politicians. HUMPHRYS: Well, OK. We sometimes draw the distinction, I accept that - to politicans with whom I am in fundamental agreement. GOLDSMITH: No. But let them vote for a referendum. If they are for a referendum. I mean let people decide. How can you strip a nation of its sovereignity? HUMPHRYS: OK. GOLDSMITH: How can you do so on a false prospectus and in secret? And, when you say it's just a few people we are quoting it's not just true. The European Parliament proposes that Foreign and Security policy, Defence, Justice and Home Affairs to be brought under community control. I mean, how can you have more than the economy? All the laws of the nation, Foreign Policy, Security, Defence, Justice and Home Affairs and not give the people the right to vote? I mean it's a most unbelievable idea. HUMPHRYS: So, for all those politicians listening....watching this programme, some of whom will be Conservative candidates in the next Election, you are saying to them the test as to whether I run against you or not - I put a candidate up against you or not - is that in your personal manifesto because we must assume it's not going to be in the Tory Party's manifesto, in your personal manifesto, you swear to call for a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty? That's the test. GOLDSMITH: That is absolutely correct, except that you concentrate on the Tory Party. This is not a Left/Right issue. HUMPHRYS: Any, any, any candidate. GOLDSMITH: It is a yes/no issue. It is those who want to maintain the sovereignity and identity of the nation and those who want to fuse it within the..... HUMPHRYS: I mention the Tory Party because they are the most Euro sceptical. GOLDSMITH: That is a fair - well, they're seen to be the most Euro sceptical, because they're the Party of power but the Labour Party is also split. And I'm sure that among the Labour Party, I know that among the Labour Party, there are people who feel as strongly as anybody else about maintaining the identity of the nation and not just throwing it into a super national pot, dominated by technocrats, who themselves are nominated by Germany. HUMPHRYS: But look how serious is your challenge? It's bluff, really, isn't it? I mean you know you can't force a... GOLDSMITH: I have never bluffed in my life. I didn't bluff in France, we got thirteen per cent of the vote and why would I bluff on this occasion? I have never bluffed. We will go through to the end, come what may. This is the single most important battle one can possibly have. And, by the way, one of the few things I agree with Chancellor Kohl about is when he said the other day, the Dear Chancellor - what did he say? He said: In about the next two years - this was on the thirteenth of October - we will make the process of European integration irreversible - two years. This is a really big battle he went on to say but it is worth the fight and there he's right. It is a big battle that we have to fight and it explains why when he has a twoyear time view why we haven't got time to go through a phoney General Election about power which won't be kept in this country. And, the idea that in five years, the Tories might come back and change it and if Labour is willing to go through and work with Chancellor Kohl to make it irreversible within two years. That is wholly unacceptable! HUMPHRYS: But, what a fight you've got on your hands? What a fight you've got. You're entering into this contest without a single big name, to say the very least of it. Who are your candidates? Who is going to be with you, giving you your support, the sort of people that the British nation will say: oh, I know about him, I respect him. He's a formidable figure. You've got to have people like that, haven't you? GOLDSMITH: You're very impressed by politicians, I'm not. I think, they're fifth rate, the bunch of them. So, I don't give a damn about the politicians. As far as I'm concerned, I want normal and ordinary people. HUMPHRYS: I'm not often accused of being very impressed by politicians, it has to be said. But- GOLDSMITH: Well, well, you keep thinking about whether or not they're interested in politicians. I'm not interested in politicians. Politicians have let us down appallingly. They've destroyed most of these things. HUMPHPRYS: So, you may enter this election without any significant politican names? GOLDSMITH: I've heard some of these people. Good, decent people who are against European integration in a super state, who've come to me and said: I voted for Maastrict holding my nose. That's what one man said to me the other day. I said: how dare you? HUMPHRYS: Who? Who? GOLDSMITH: I wouldn't think of saying it but I said: how dare you? How dare you vote away your country holding your nose because that was right for your career? HUMPHRYS: So, this is the people's referendum Party? GOLDSMITH: But, of course. Any referendum party, by definition, is the people's Party. And, please, let me remind you that referenda are part of the tradition of this country. HUMPHRYS: And, you... GOLDSMITH: There have been four referenda since 1973 and the principle or constitutional authority in Britain..... says that a referendum is appropriate. HUMPHRYS: And, in a few seconds, you are prepared to put twenty million pounds into this venture? GOLDSMITH: The money is irrelevant. How can you- HUMPHRYS: Not to most people it wouldn't be. GOLDSMITH: Well, it's irrelevant to me. I will put whatever it takes to give the chance for people to understand what the issue is, to have a full debate at the time of the General Election, for people to be able to react. And, if they decide to vote in favour, Good Luck to them; if they decide to vote against, then, there'll be a continued nation. HUMPHRYS: Sir James Goldsmith, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...