................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 30.6.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Labour HAS changed its policy by advocating referendums, but hasn't that spiked the Tories' guns? In our Glasgow Studio is the Scottish Secretary Michael Forsyth. Good afternoon, Mr Forsyth. MICHAEL FORSYTH MP: Hello. HUMPHRYS: You must be feeling a wee bit sick this weekend, mustn't you? Because last week you were crowing, 'cos you were saying: we've got them on a run. Now, Blair is in trouble. But, Mr Blair has won the support of his Party for his new policy and the support of the people of Scotland. FORSYTH: Well, I'll take that question as a bit of a joke really. We've seen his front bench spokesman on Constitutional Affairs resign in disgust. We've seen the former Minister at the Scottish Office, Harry Ewing, the Chairman of the Constitutional Convention, resign and complain about the treatment. We've seen the Chairman, the Labour Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, describe Mr Blair's action as a kick in the teeth. And, we've seen Labour damaged not just by their retreat on devolution but damaged because it's become apparent to everyone in Scotland that Labour policy in Scotland is not determined by the Scottish Labour Party but is determined by Mr Blair and some people in London. And, that six years work with the Constitutional Convention, to build a coalition between the Liberals and the Trade Unions for their proposals for a Scottish Parliament were torn up. And, we now have the Liberals attacking them, we have the STUC attacking them. So, I'm not sure why you think I should be depressed? HUMPHRYS: Well perhaps you've not read The Scotsman this morning and the Scotsman on Sunday? We've seen what the poll there tells us, that the people of Scotland want what Mr Blair is now offering them - that is a referendum. They even, they even, want a Scottish Parliament with tax-raising powers. FORSYTH: Well, the poll in Scotland on Sunday shows that forty-one per cent - at least, one of the polls this morning shows that forty-one per cent of the people of Scotland - believe that Labour's proposals for Constitutional reform will lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom and I'm certainly depressed about that. As to the support for a referendum, there's nothing new about that. Indeed, I was challenging Labour to have a referendum after their Bill, if they ever, of course, formed a Government, became an Act. To have a referendum in the same way as happened with the Scotland Act which of course was defeated by the people of Scotland who rejected devolution at that time. To have a referendum in advance of legislation is absurd and that's not just my view. That's what Tam Dalyell is saying and Tam Dalyell is quite rightly pointing out that it is a Constitutional nonsense to ask questions in advance. And, Mr Blair's proposal to ask questions in advance of the legislation about the existence of the
Parliament and whether it should have tax-raising powers, puts them in a position where they're saying that if they ever formed a Government, they would ask questions which could result in answers which would leave them with a policy which ever single political Party in Scotland has repudiated. HUMPHRYS: But- FORSYTH: If they get answers which say: we'd like a Parliament without tax-raising powers they'll then be landed with a policy which they've spent the last six years saying is unworkable. So, the whole thing is a complete dog's breakfast. HUMPHRYS: But, what is- FORSYTH: And, it comes from proceeding for reasons of political opportunism which I think is a disgraceful way in which to deal with Constitutional matters. HUMPHRYS: But what is quite clear, what is quite clear is that the Scots want some say, some greater say, in their own affairs and they want a referendum to be able to tell everybody what they want. Now you are saying we wouldn't give them a referendum, are you? FORSYTH: I'm saying nothing of the sort, until.. HUMPHRYS: Well, would you give them a referendum? FORSYTH: Well, until last week I was challenging the Labour Party to commit themselves to a referendum after an Act of Parliament had been obtained which is what happened in 1979. That is what Tam Dalyell is suggesting, that is what others have suggested. What Labour are proposing is to ask two questions: one about the tax raising powers and one about the Parliament, in advance of legislation. Where does that leave, for example, the position of the proposals for the Parliament to be elected by Proportional Representation? Why is there not to be a question about that if Labour are committed to plebiscites of this kind? Why are they not asking the people of Scotland about that? HUMPHRYS: But you're not dealing with the point I've just raised are you? FORSYTH: Well, well, I am. I'm trying to show to you the absurdity of what Labour is suggesting. They're having plebiscites in advance of consideration of the matter by Parliament. If their position was genuine that they wanted to consult the people of Scotland then they should consult them on the whole package, so they know what's involved. HUMPHRYS: But, I am asking you, if I may - I mean if you deal with this point rather than dealing with what they have proposed - perhaps, we'll deal with what you're proposing. What I'm asking-putting to you is that the people of Scotland clearly want some say over their own affairs through a referendum. Now you tell me that you've been urging the Labour Party to hold such a referendum but you, the Tories, wouldn't do any such thing? You would not allow them to have a referendum. FORSYTH: Well.. HUMPHRYS: To tell the nation that they want some say over their own affairs. FORSYTH: Well, I have this old fashioned view of politics that what you should do is stand up for what you believe in and put it to the people. And, if you win an election you then put it into practise. If you lose an election, your opponents put their policies into practise. I find it a slightly absurd idea that you should give people a referendum with the possibility that you end up with a policy with which you profoundly disagree and then you implement it. That is what Labour have got themselves into this week. They have allowed the possibility of a referendum to create a plebiscite which would result in people saying they did not want a Parliament with tax-
raising powers and they would then have to implement it. HUMPHRYS: Yep, as you say. Would you, now let us assume.. FORSYTH: The answer to the question is 'No'. I am not going to advocate a policy which I believe would lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom, would be damaging for Scotland's interests and I..what I was going to say to you is if Labour are genuinely wanting to have plebiscites on these matters, which I think is a rather odd way of proceeding,why are they not asking the Scottish people about Proportional Representation? HUMPHRYS: Right. So.. FORSYTH: Why are they not asking them a question about do they agree that a Scottish Parliament would not have its legislation revised by the House of Lords - a major Constitutional change? HUMPHRYS: OK, you make.. FORSYTH: Why only the tax-raising powers being singled out? and of course, I know the answer to that question. That is because Mr Blair has quite rightly recognised that a tax raising parliament would be a disaster for Scotland and a disaster for the United Kingdom. And instead of standing up and saying: we're going to change the policy, he's come up with this particular volte-face which has left his Party north of the border looking particularly stupid and in disarray. HUMPHRYS: Alright. So you you are saying the status quo - more or less - though you would make... FORSYTH: No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. No, no. We have- I'm not saying- HUMPHRYS: No, no, but what you are saying is that you would not.. FORSYTH: Well, perhaps I could say what I'm saying rather than you tell me what I'm saying. HUMPHRYS: Well, I've been trying to understand what you've been saying because all you've been doing is attacking the Labour Party's proposals and everytime I've asked you whether you would offer the people of Scotland, under any circumstances, the chance to vote on their own affairs, your answer is to attack the Labour Party proposals. FORSYTH: Well, I don't know what you mean: a chance to vote on their own affairs? HUMPHRYS: A referendum. FORSYTH: Well, a referendum on what? HUMPHRYS: On whether there should be some kind of devolution for Scotland, which clearly they're now telling us they want. FORSYTH: Well, the reason..John, I know you don't spend much time looking at Scottish affairs but there is some kind of devolution for Scotland, as you put it. The Scottish Office has devolved powers.. HUMPHRYS: I've acknowledged that. FORSYTH: ..and the Scottish Grand Committee has been given enhanced powers to pass legislation, to hold the Executive to account. The Scottish Grand Committee as reformed can do everything that a Scottish Parliament, without tax-raising powers can do and more - in so far, as it can hold the Prime Minister and senior members of the Government to account. The only thing that Labour's tax-raising Parliament could do is make the Scots pay more in income tax through a tartan tax. That would be deeply damaging to Scotland's interest and, ultimately, I believe, lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. But, if I could just make one point which does effect England. It does seem to me to be rather an odd thing that Labour are saying they're going to have plebiscites north of the border but that they're not going to consult people in England about the consequences of that policy for England. Why don't they have a referendum, if this is the road they wish to go down? Why don't they say that they will have a referendum in England on the powers of Scottish Members of Parliament, to vote on English issues, which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament? HUMPHRYS: You seem to be very keen on referendums except giving the people of Scotland the opportunity to vote in one for or against their own Parliament? FORSYTH: I'm very keen, despite the difficulties which you're giving me - I'm very keen to draw attention to the absurdity of what Labour is proposing and the internal contradictions in that argument. If they are saying that they have some principle here that they believe - and I think they're wrong, I think a referendum should be after legislation so people clearly know what they're voting for - but if they're saying that they're now in favour of plebiscites on these matters, why are these plebiscites confined to north of the border? Why are the English not getting a say on the consequences of their tax-raising Parliament proposals for England? HUMPHRYS: Alright. FORSYTH: Why can it be right for seventy-two Scottish Members of Parliament to vote on English Health, English Housing, English Education - all those areas, apart from Defence and Foreign Affairs.. HUMPHRYS: Right. Final very quick thought. FORSYTH: Hang on a second this is an important point - which have been devolved to Scotland but the English will not be able to vote on these Scottish matters. That is the West Lothian question. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. FORSYTH: That is the question that Tam Dalyell is asking again - say it again Tam is the message that we're putting to Tam Dalyell and the other people, who are committed to the Union and who are appalled by this opportunism by the Labour Party. HUMPHRYS: Michael Forsyth, many thanks.