................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DONALD DEWAR INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.6.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar does it worry you that a growing number of people in the Labour Party are concerned that too much power is now concentrated in Tony Blair's office? DONALD DEWAR: Well, I just don't recognise that scenario. I notice you referred to bitter attacks on the concentration of power. I think the whole mark of Tony Blair's tenure in the leadership is how he has built and expanded the efforts of Neil Kinnock and John Smith to in fact push the responsibility and involvement out into the party as a whole. I mean when I first came into the Labour Party it was quite narrowly held, usually in the General Management committees and now it of course lies with members, and
there is very very complex and increasingly effective consultation machinery of which the road to the Manifesto, which is going to give every individual member of the Party a chance to have his say on the final Manifesto, is a symbol, and a very important part. HUMPHRYS: Well you say it's effective, but many people think not otherwise we wouldn't have this new organisation, would we, Labour Reform, a group of supporters from across the spectrum within the Party, set up precisely because they are worried about the direction they are going. DEWAR: Well I don't want to knock labour reform
and the Labour Party anyway is entitled to their point of view, but can I say to you precisely, that my only knowledge of Labour Reform is what I've seen in Newsnight programmes, it's a Newsnight programme creation. So far as I'm concerned, because it has never contacted me, I never met a member of it and I don't think it represents a significant view within the Party. And so far as the programme is concerned, I was enormouslyt encouraged by what I see. David Crosby, is quite right to represent the people of Bolton when he comes to Parliament and speak for them. He is right to put the emphasis on manufacturing industry and building our economic base. And the last think I want, is people who don't do that kind of job for their constituents, and the last thing I want is just zombies, who can be directed by me through the lobbies and who don't make any contribution to the campaigning, the thinking the working in the party. And the great thing is, if you look at the intake over recent years, now just from 1992 but before that, that we're on an upward curve. I'm a veteran, I can go back years and years, back into the sixties, and one thing I'm absolutely clear about is that the candidate of Labour.. the quality of Labour MPs has gone up very very markedly over those years. HUMPHRYS: You say that Labour Reform is new, well of course it is and every organisation has to start somewhere, but it's got to have new members it's growing. We also heard in that film from Lynne Jones, who says that what you're talking about, the great democratisation, is in fact a sham. Loads of consultation but not actual decision making on the part of the members. DEWAR: In the Labour Party, we have to carry the opinion in the Party. What we are trying to do is make sure that the Party is fully involved in that process. Now when I'm reselected as a Member of Parliament, it's not done by a narrowly based group of delegates, it's done by every member of the party, so that several hundred people will be voting. That seems to me to be an enormous improvement and give a real meaning to party membership. Instead of trying to get the whole of police hammered out in five, perhaps slightly chaotic days of Party Conference, with no real time for proper debate, we've now got a National Policy Forum in which people regionally selected, are coming together on many many occasions, to try and contribute and to guide. And I think these are enormous improvements on the road for Manifesto, the idea that we'll have in short while now, a document which is the basis of a Manifesto, it goes out to consultation in every party in the United Kingdom and Great Britain, it then goes on the the NEC and to the Shadow
Cabinet, and ultimately subjected not just to Conference decision, but to a referendum of all membership of the Parties. Just compare that, if you call that a sham, compare it with what is happening in every other political party in this country, we're miles ahead. You may say to me we ought to go further, I've no doubt we'll want to sophisticate, and I've no doubt we'll get better at it, but it represents very real progress. HUMPHRYS: Well I wouldn't say that you ought to go further, what I say to you is you ought to look again at what your'e doing, because on the face of it, that sounds immensely democratic, this idea of the Manifesto, for instance, going out to all the members of the party. But come on, that isn't true democracy if when they're given that Manifesto, they can in the words of Lynn Jones, "either take it or leave it"they can't actually amend things and then have votes on them in a truly democratic way. Take it or leave it if you don't like it. And of course they can't leave it because that would so damage and so embarrass the Labour Partym it would be inconceivable. DEWAR: Well I certainly hope that they won't, but that is a matter for the electorate, and we take risks. I mean Tony Blair, one of his characteristics is that he a a leader who if he thinks that the issue is important enough he will take risks. HUMPHRYS: But that's not a realistic risk is it? Come on you know, you say you hope thay won't do it, they can't do it can they? DEWAR: Well let me give you an example of the risks he takes; Many old veterans, many foot soldiers of many years experience, have said all this democracy coming into conference, the increasing power of the individual conference delegate, will make conference more difficult to manage. Tony has said "Well, so be it". And that is what democracy is about, it is involving people and giving them that chance, and he's gone very bravely down that road. In the same way he's now involving people more and more. If you're saying to me that we ought to shut down the shop and just take it back to the old what was called 'Clause Five Mechanism' , when it was all done by a very small group of people, one meeting on one afternoon, well I think you're wrong. I'm very proud of what's happening and I think that the Labour Party membership card give people a greater stake in reality of politics, than the membership card of any other party. HUMPHRYS: What I'm saying to you is that the kind of thing you describe is not real democracy. I mean every organisation, there's loads and loads because in many organisations, schools, the Army, companies, you have consultation, but at the end of that process, in those organisations, the headteacher, the colonel or the general or the chairman of the company says: right we've had our consultation, now we've decided. And that's what in truth happening in the Labour Party. It is the leadership who decides. DEWAR: No, at the end of the day it's Conference that decides but we're also having another input, which is a direct
referendum of the members. HUMPHRYS: Precisely, and you're looking for a rubber stamp there. DEWAR: Well if you say you're looking for rubber stamp, the people who have to decide whether they are going to approve or not approve are the members themselves. HUMPHRYS: But you know they will not reject it? DEWAR: You're applying here a test in which you're applying to no other party. We have got a system now where there are points of influence where there is an input by ordinary members and by backbench MPs, which you don't get in any other political party, and we ought to get some credit for that. HUMPHRYS: But I'm applying for the test and now giving you the credit if you like. (INTERRUPTION) No far from it, far from it, gracious, to the end. I'm applying the test, because you tell us the Labour Party says New Labour is all about true democracy. Now what I'm suggesting to you is that there is the appearance of democracy, but in reality, when it comes down to it, it's take it or leave it. The Policy Forum is a example of that. You give people policies from the leadership, they look at them, they discuss them, it goes back to the leadership, the leadership does what it wants to do. DEWAR: As someone who has spent many years in departmental brief in opposition, I know how important party opinion is, and I know as I've appeared before the National Policy Forum and I've had to discuss issues with them. There are some very sparky individualks in that gathering. They have points of view they represent points of view, they report back to the people who have sent them, and I can assure you that we have to carry them and we have to listen to them, and that's a new machinery that has been put in place. And I'm just enormously encouraged by the seriousness with which it has been taken within the party, I freely concede to you that there are tensions, because it is new, because it is settling down. Some people may even feel that they're being slightly by-passed, in order to give the influence to a broader congregation, but that it seems to me, is a very welcome development, and also with our ordinary MPs, I say ordinary backbench MPs, junior ministers, and so on, if we win this election, there will be I think a much greater involvement that there has been in the past. There's a famous story about Willy Ross, a very respected Scottish Secretary, who faced their Junior Minister on his first day, who said "What do I do now"and Willy said "You do as you're telt (told)" That atmosphere has gone from the party, and and we've progressed. HUMPHRYS: You tell me that that atmosphere has gone from the Party, but let me suggest to you why a lot of people are worried about the way it's going, because they see the party changing around them, they see the attitudes that the party expresses. Sometimes even the values that it appears to hold change and the latest example of this is Jack Straw. Let's take a couple little things that Mr. Straw has said, he even came downm heavily on squeegy merchants and the down and outs. He wanted them removed from the streets. Now they wake up to discover that the party - your members that is, wake up to discover that the party is taking seriously this idea of enforcing curfews in towns and cities across Britain, on sixteen to eighteen year old kids so that can't go out on the streets at night. Well I mean they are saying, "I can't remember ever having discussed this." DEWAR: No, but they're now getting a chance to discuss that particular problem, and what Jack Straw is doing is drawing attention to a problem that worries almost everyone in this country. It certainly worries my constituents and it's brought to me very very frequently. I had a residents' association recently came to see me about this very problem. What Jack Straw is doing is throwing up an idea and saying: well is this worth thinking about, is this worth looking at? He's not laying down policy; I mean if Jack Straw had suddenly appeared in front os us and said the Labour policy is now written in stone and it will be, you have a complaint, Your complaint appears to be that he is saying here is something that we ought to take seriously, and who's going to quarrel with them about that? And here is one possible approach, let's hear what people think about it. And really that seems to be a perfectly rational way of approaching matters. HUMPHRYS: So, do you think it's a good idea? DEWAR: Well, I haven't talked to Jack about it and I certainly am very well aware of the problems. I think there would be difficulties about implementation. But that's something for discussion. I certainly believe... HUMPHRYS: But you know the issues involved.... DEWAR: .... let me just say, I certainly believe that when it comes to areas of law and order and social cohesion, I think it is the voice of the Party as a whole, which is very important. I went to a meeting yesterday, which I spoke at, which was all the agents and key workers and candidates in Scotland, and I was talking there about social policy, about growing inequality, about how we had to tackle these matters, and the feed-back becomes very important on that. You've got to talk and listen before you come to conclusions, and that is what the party has become, very much more sophisticated over and I think very much more effective. I think these MPs you've been talking about, I mean taxi drivers, nurses, engineers, teachers, they're going to come in brim full of ideas, and that's exactly what I want. I don't want people who aren't good potential ministers, Cabinet ministers, Chief Whips or what have you. I want people who have that potential and who are going to really feed in to the process of policy formation under a Labour Government. HUMPHRYS: You feed then on this one very quickly, if you would, are you... is your view personally leaning towards this idea of curfews? Do you think that's a good idea? DEWAR: I haven't discussed it with any of my colleagues... HUMPHRYS: You say Jack Straw's entitled to express his view, well you're equally entitled to express your view, you must have a view. DEWAR: I haven't discussed it, I haven't looked at the practicalities. My first instinct is that this is a problem of very real proportions. I'm not sure that a curfew would be a workable solution, but what I do believe is that any responsible political Party should be considering these problems and if you go out into the housing schemes and residential areas of Glasgow and talk to ordinary people, they don't want a Party that's frightened to discuss these matters, they want a Party that will throw up ideas and will come to considered conclusions over a period of time. That's what policy formation is about, it shouldn't be done in closed and secret places and we're not doing that. HUMPHRYS: Alright, but that's something you say isn't written down, absolutely right, something that is written down is stake holding. Now Tony Blair went off to Singapore and when he came back, you had a policy that said the Labour Party is the Party of the stake holders. That was fine as far as it went. Trade Union leaders then leapt up and said "Right, so how are we going to change company law?". They were then told "but you're not going to change company law, that isn't happening". Now here, we had a new policy enunciated by the leader, and not only did he say what the Party now stood for, but he also said you're not going to even think about changing company law. They were leapt on from a great height. DEWAR: You see, what happened was that Tony Blair took a very large number of policy themes, brought them together and put a trade mark on them.. TALKING TOGETHER DEWAR: ...no, it didn't exclude others as such, and what happened was, he put a trade mark. One of our problems is that we have an enormous range of, it seems to me, well thought out, well established policies, yet we're constantly being attacked for not having any policies and what Tony was doing there was bringing together and putting a focus on a very important area of policy with the stake-holders concept, and then we went on from that to discuss detail and to evaluate it further ... HUMPHRYS: But you didn't discuss detail.... DEWAR: ....in the same way as Gordon Brown, for example, has been laying down some very precise objectives about fiscal responsibility and economic management, about for example, only borrowing for investment, not for consumption, a whole range of these matters and that will be part of the process, that is part of the process which will lead to an economic section in the road to a Manifesto. HUMPHRYS: But you said there was full discussion after what Mr Blair had to say about stake holding and all that. There wasn't. The minute people started saying "well, now let's talk about how we're going to change company law", they were told by Mr Brown, by Mr Blair, "No we're not going to change company law, full stop, don't go stirring up trouble with that sort of talk, because it will give the Tories a free hit". DEWAR: Let me just say to you that Gordon Brown or Tony Blair, or anyone else, has a very important part in the formulation of policy, but it's much broader than that and anyone who knows either of those two men will know that they're not people who have a imperial Czar-like approach to policy formation. In fact, sometimes, as I sit through the many many meetings I've taken part in, I wish sometimes that the consultation was not quite as broad as it is. HUMPHRYS: Well I don't recall the party actually
..... change company law, when did that happen? DEWAR: Let me say to you that because someone says perhaps you ought to change something, it doesn't mean that that then has to become part of Labour Party policy. There are economic policy commissions, there is the national policy forum. If anyone wants to bring forward policy proposals or suggestions, that can be done through that proper machinery, and I really do.. I understand of course the temptation, but I think people are looking for conspiracies, they're looking for black threats that don't exist, and what we've got is a very open system in which whether it be Lynne Jones or any other member of the Party, she can put, as she has in your programme, a point of view which is very different perhaps from the one I would want to put, but she's welcome to do it because we are an open society, we are a movement which is pulling together with one objective and which I think as the polls, as the recent by-elections, as the local Government elections show, has been remarkably successful. HUMPHRYS: It may be of course, may it not, that at the moment most people in the Party are saying "alright, we'll accept this, we'll accept what's going on because we so badly want power, eighteen years in opposition and all that, but once you get into power, then it may change and you may start coming across some problems with your membership". DEWAR: Well, I don't know, that is always a possibility, but I have to say to you there is a unity of purpose which I find very impressive and when I listen to the interviews you have in your film, when I talk to candidates up and down the country, what they want to do is to be there and contributing. And if you look, for example, at the Council Leaders, like Graham Stringer, of course we don't know what his particular career will bring, but many people have adjusted, and it is a difficult adjustment, starting again in a new environment. Look at David Blunkett, who used to be prominent in Sheffield, Henry McLeash (phon), a very strong front bencher who used to be the leader of the Fyfe Regional Council in Scotland, Frank Dobson, who used to be a leader in a London Borough. People make that adjustment, talent will out, and there's an awful lot of talent in that group of people coming into the Commons, and also I may say, an awful lot of women which I think will be particularly welcome. HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar, thank you very much indeed.