................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 14.1.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon and welcome to one of On the Record's special debates with an audience here in the studio. On Wednesday MPs will vote on whether to change our day, to give us darker mornings and lighter evenings. Daylight robbery - as the critics claim - or Britain's big chance to "lighten up" and brighten all our lives? We'll be debating - and voting - on that after the news read by Chris Lowe. NEWS HUMPHRYS: On Wednesday - or Friday in fact - MPs will vote on a change in the law which could affect the lives of all of us: whether to lighten the gloom of our winter evenings and have darker mornings. No-one else in Europe does it the way we do and there's a private members'
bill which would bring us in line with the Continent. It has a much better chance of becoming law than most private members' bills - the government's allowing a free vote on it - but there's plenty of opposition, especially from Scotland where the sun wouldn't come up until even later. In the next hour or so we'll be looking at the arguments for and against. We've two teams of MPs: the Conservative John Butterfill (it's his bill) who's on the same side in this case as the Labour MP George Foulkes. Against them: Nigel Evans, Conservative, and Malcolm Bruce, Liberal Democrat. They will present their cases and cross-examine each other. And our audience will join in, not, incidentally, a representative cross-section of the British public because nearly a third of them are from Scotland - not representative in any sense. I'll ask them in a moment what they think, but first let's hear what it would mean in practical terms from a man who's well used to standing in front of the map of the United Kingdom. IAN McCASKILL: Hello, it's not just the weather that's important to us all, it's the length of daytime as well. Let's have a look at some sunrise and sunset times. I've chosen the day - 21st December 1996 - the shortest day of the year. The sun rises in London just after eight o'clock in the morning but doesn't rise up in Birmingham until quarter past eight, it doesn't rise in Newcastle until half past eight, and then it's quarter to nine before it gets up in Edinburgh. Further north still, it's even later, nearly nine o'clock in the morning in Inverness and up in Shetland at Haroldswick it doesn't rise til quarter past nine in the morning. So if lights off time is half an hour before that typically, then at sunset, we'll look at sunsets now, lights are on half an hour after these times but it'll give you an idea of the length of daylight including twilight. The sunset in Haroldswick cruel, cruel, cruel at two fifty, a very short day indeed up there in the afternoon. Coming down that west side, it sets in Manchester at three fifty-one in the afternoon. In Aberystwyth in west Wales it doesn't set until five past four and then at Penzance in the West Country it sets at twenty two minutes past four. You can see, I think the difference in day light, the considerable difference from the south to the north. Down in the south, eight o'clock it rises, half past four it sets, eight hours plus of daylight, plus twilight hours. But up in the north, up in the northern isles, well there's a day length of about four and a half hours plus a little bit of twilight as well. A considerable difference. Now if you move the clock forward an hour, alright the sun doesn't get up in London until nine odds in the morning but it doesn't get up in Shetland until practically eleven o'clock in the morning. There is a benefit as well, you do have an extra hour of evening sunshine as well but the sunrise time perhaps the most significant one from that point of view. That's it, make up your own mind. HUMPHRYS: Right, well that's the effect that the new law would have. Now when we've heard all the arguments I'm going to ask our audience to vote for or against but let's see what they think now before we've gone into it in some detail. So if you wouldn't mind ladies and gentlemen pressing your buttons to tell us whether you are for a change in the law, whether you are against a change in the law or whether you are undecided. Would you press your buttons now please. And let me just reiterate that this is not a representative audience in any sense, heavily weighted to Scotland for obvious reasons and not withstanding that let's see what they think. Well there we are: thirty-seven per cent are in favour, pretty well evenly balanced. Thirty-seven in favour, thirty-six against and fairly heavy, twenty-seven per cent undecided. Right - why? Let's try and have a quick look at that. Who voted in favour? Somebody who voted in favour, perhaps you'll tell me why, yes sir, the gentleman here in the front. UNNAMED MAN: One thing, we are part of the European Union and I think we should join in the same time, the .......when you go abroad. On a more basic thing to myself, I've got a young daughter, I'd like to see her come home from school in daylight. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Alright. Quick thought from somebody who voted against. Yes sir. UNNAMED MAN: Yes, you're talking about your young daughter coming home from school in daylight. I went to school on a west coast island....which if you saw the map, if you look at Inverness and come straight west across the country it's more or less there somewhere. And there's young kids going to school from......who've got to get a car in the morning to a ferry, a ferry and then a bus to school. Now they've got to leave home at seven o'clock in the morning. HUMPHRYS: And it's going to be pitch dark. UNNAMED MAN: It's going to be [itch dark. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Somebody who's undecided. Yes sir, you. UNNAMED MAN: I think the gaining of daylight at night would be quite helpful leisure wise but one of the arguments I've heard is that business would gain four hours with European business, I'm not convinced by that, we've coped with it for years, obviously we can carrying on coping with it. HUMPHRYS: But you're open to persuasion either way, clearly. UNNAMED MAN: I think so yes. HUMPHRYS: What about somebody else who's in favour of a change in the law. Somebody who's in favour of a change in the law? Yes sir. UNNAMED MAN: I'm in favour of it. I find older people...they're treated, it's as though it's a curfew for them. They rush to get in before it gets dark. HUMPHRYS: They don't want to be out late in the evenings. UNNAMED MAN: I do feel sorry for people, especially from where you are from, but I think the vast majority would like the extra hour in the evenings. I would. HUMPHRYS: And against? Yes sir, the gentleman there. UNNAMED MAN: I work for the Post Office and I feel that we are spending most of our time in the dark at the moment anyway, working with torchlight and bad street lighting and tenement stairs. I don't feel we should spend all of our first delivery out in the darkness, I'm totally against it. HUMPHRYS: Alright and one more undecided before we move on. Somebody else who is open to persuasion. Yes the gentleman in the white shirt there. UNNAMED MAN: Yeah we were talking about school children being picked up and dropped off from school. I think the main thrust of argument there has been...dropped off in the morning, but also you've got the question of it's going to be dark when they actually leave school, there's going to be a question about that as well really. So it's a question of how is it going to effect schoolchildren either way really. HUMPHRYS: Exactly. Another undecided then. Just one more to get some sense of why people can't...yes sir, the gentleman here. UNNAMED MAN: I heard somebody talk about daylight gain. We have a sunrise and a sunset...between those two is a period of daylight and no fiddling about with purely arbitrary measurements before or after would make the slightest bit of difference. HUMPHRYS: Even the politicians can't give us more time, more sun side is what you are saying, well that's absolutely true but there are other issues that they can affect so we'll deal with those a little bit later. HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's get back now to the arguments in some more detail and see if once we've presented them they can change any minds in our studio audience. We have a couple of reports for the pros and the antis and then, the politicians will put their cases, summing up. First, the argument for what is being so inelegantly called 'Single, Double Summer time' - that means we'd all be basically on central European time. VOICE OVER: At this time of the year, schoolchildren have to walk home in the dark. There are many dangers. Most road accidents involving children happen after school. Lighter afternoons would cut accidents. Each year, the clock change could save four hundred and eighty people from serious injury and a hundred and ten people from death. JOHN MACNAB: As a schoolteacher, I've always been concerned about just how vulnerable schoolchildren are. As far as them getting to school in the morning, it's not such a serious problem as the afternoon. Most parents bring their children safely to school. It's a different story at the end of the day when they leave school at four o'clock when they dawdle back home, take their time and their parents are not there when they get home. I would much rather children were out playing active games after school and my colleagues and I would like to organise that, rather than being stuck in the house. Incidentally, it's a total myth that all Scots are against this change.
Myself and my colleagues are strongly in favour of this change. VOICE OVER: This enthusiasm is shared by banks and businesses, who know that, as a nation, we are all losing out being out of sync with our main trading partners. Deals are lost daily as Continental offices open and close an hour before ours. And, on top of that, our dark afternoons are a particular problem for businesses which rely on people being out and about. In Tourism, for example, estimates suggest the UK is losing out on business worth one point two billion pounds a year. PAUL MAINDS: Our business is European road transport and, therefore, we're right in the middle of the debate on the time difference. Our customers are involved in exporting to Europe and buying goods from Europe. We find that this is a real constraint to trade, not just for us but for our customers, where communication can be effected by the hour's difference. Typically, calls to suppliers, calls to customers can take time. And, therefore, we find that our Continental customers don't get the service that they could expect from a neighbouring country. And, sooner or later, that affects trade and affects Britain's chances of competing in the Single Market. VOICE OVER: Much crime is committed under cover of darkness. The Police believe that dark afternoons encourage some criminals and make many of us - particularly the elderly - nervous about going out. More daylight could help, if patterns of offending don't change, it could cut recorded crime by three per cent. That's two hundred thousand fewer crimes per year. One contribution to reducing the fear of crime. LUCY READ: I go home two o'clock and, then, when I go home I stop indoors till next morning and I'll lock the doors because I'm frightened of the dark, frightened of opening the doors before the dark. VOICE OVER: It's over twenty-five years since we experimented by putting the clocks forward. Since then, the pressure for a permanent change has grown and grown. Research has convinced groups across the country that we'll all benefit from extra daylight in the afternoon, when we're most likely to use it. Apart from the many advantages we've seen, the improvement to our collective quality of life is, perhaps, the most important. Indeed, the last nationwide poll found that seventy-two per cent of people were in favour of making the change. If you're one of the remaining doubters, lighten up. Just imagine how all our lives could be improved, with more time for many of us to go out in the afternoon and fewer opportunities for passing criminals; more time to trade, enhancing prospects for the UK plc. And, above all, lighter afternoons will save lives, giving children more time to play in safer streets. HUMPHRYS: Well, as I said, the Conservative MP John Butterfill is the sponsor of the Bill. He, now, has two minutes to summarise his case. Mr Butterfill: JOHN BUTTERFILL MP: Thanks, John. Well, first of all, nothing we can do will increase the number of hours of daylight in the day. What they can do, however, is make them more usable and more worthwhile and they can extend our leisure time and this is a terribly important factor: that we will actually make better use of the time that we have. But, the very important arguments that film has shown you about saving accidents - and, I know the Opposition will try and rubbish the figures, but the figures have been produced by our own Department of Transport. They've been checked by the Herriot-Watt University in Edinburgh; they're supported by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, by the AA, the RAC and the Police. Now, I'd prefer to believe all of those people about what the effect will be on accidents. Similarly, if we're looking at crime, there is a very real opportunity to reduce crime. This is supported by the Association of Chief Police Officers - both in England and Wales and in Scotland - it's supported by the Police Federation. It's supported by people like the Suzy Lamphlugh Trust, who are concerned not just about the elderly who go out after dark but women, young women after dark, people who have to take wages to the bank, when their business is closed. All these things make a huge difference to our lives. In addition to that, you've got the extra time for leisure. Now, the Policy Studies Institute has reckoned that the boost to our national economy is worth about one point two billion pounds. That's more jobs, more prosperity, more work for all sorts of people who work in those industries. And, it means that, for example, if you're going up for golf in Scotland, you can actually play golf in the afternoon, which you can't do at the moment. And, of course, businesses are going to benefit enormously from this. We know because the CBI has polled its own members and eighty per cent of their members support this and all the Scottish Chambers of Commerce have voted unanimously in favour of it. HUMPHRYS: Right. And, there, I must stop you, Mr Butterfill. Thank you very much. That is the case for changing the Law. Now, the case against. VOICE OVER: Seven a.m. in the heart of Scotland and most of Britain is still asleep. Postman Bill Mackintosh is loading his van, ready for his day's work. Heading out from Pitlochry, his six hour run is a vital link for this isolated and remote community. BILL MACKINTOSH: I'm in the office about quarter to seven, then, I get my mail sorted out; the bags ready to go out. Into the bus with it. And, of course, when you go outside, the first thing you have to do is get a torch and make sure you have your torch with you. If it's a frosty, cold morning it makes life miserable because you're all covered up with clothes to keep warm... You're just-in general, it's pretty awful (phon). VOICE OVER: Over one and a half million post, construction and farmworkers start their work in darkness. For them, changing time would disrupt their jobs and threaten their safety. MACKINTOSH: Anyone who thinks of changing an hour forward like that, I think, they're silly. Doesn't matter if it's a politician, or who it is. I think it's ludicruous because it makes our life much more difficult. We have to carry torches and you're shuffling about in a deep snow and it's dark and you're meeting oncoming traffic. It does slow you down. And, with me having to keep a time schedule, it makes it very difficult. VOICE OVER: Eight fifty a.m. and the first signs of day are breaking through on the road to Kinlochrannag (phon) - twenty miles out from Pitlochry. The local store is run by Malcolm Wood. He remembers when we last fooled around with time. MALCOLM WOOD: I was teaching down in Manchester. Now, my memories of it are all negative. There was the getting up in what seemed like the middle of the night, the journey to school in pitch darkness, children coming into school not in the least receptive to start a day's work. So, if there was a good side, I certainly can't remember it. ACTUALITY VOICE OVER: The whole of the village passes through Woods' stores. If there is anyone in Kinlochrannag that wants to change the clocks, Malcolm's yet to meet them. ACTUALITY WOOD: Everybody that I've spoken to in the shop so far is really not looking forward to the idea of an extra hour's darkness in the mornings. The winter mornings here are dark enough for long enough already. It seems to be the general opinion and most people seem to think that this is yet another example of politicians in the Southeast imposing something on communities so much further north which they know very little about. VOICE OVER: Getting about is difficult enough without keeping folk in the dark until ten. Mary Wilson's weekly trip with Bill to her daughter's remote farm would be impossible. MARY WILSON: I don't like the darkness, certainly. It's bad enough, at the moment, but if there was an hour or more to go on it, it would be terrible. I think, it would be impossible, really, to go out and get your shopping and get ready and, then, come across the bridge to pick up Bill at ten to nine. It's dark enough some mornings, at the moment, with the wet weather. So, I mean, another hour it would be quite dark - not nice at all. In fact, I think, I don't think I would do it. VOICE OVER: Her daughter, Ann Robertson, finds the thought of losing her mother's visits upsetting. Even so, Ann worries about the effects on the farm, more than the impact upon her. Ten a.m. at ... Farm. If the 'time bandits' have their way, Ann's husband, Bobby, will be fleeing his four hundred sheep in the dark. He knows only too well the problems that would bring. It could also cost him money. BOBBIE ROBERTSON: We start lambing early here and there's little enough daylight as it is. Another hour's darkness in the morning is certainly not going to help us. If we can't see what we're doing, we're going to lose lambs, probably lose ewes as well and that's going to cost money which is our livelihoods. VOICE OVER: And, that's what we're talking about - the lives of people like Bobby Robertson and Bill Mackintosh. They're the people who keep Britain going in the early hours, when the rest of us are still sleeping. ROBERTSON: The politicians are thinking of changing it. They should think again and come and see for themselves how difficult they make our life to be up here in the long dark. VOICE OVER: Those who want change are trying to get away with daylight robbery. Their arguments are weak and their facts unproven. Changing time would make a difference but it's a difference Pitlochry could do without. As far as people here are concerned, it's been tried before and it didn't work. Surely, we don't want to make the same mistake again. HUMPHRYS: Well let's hear now from Nigel Evans, another Conservative MP summing up the case against change. NIGEL EVANS MP: Thank you John. Our film has starkly illustrated the severe human problems that they face north of the border but I'm a Welshman, representing a Lancashire constituency and I can tell you it is a UK problem. What CET will do, it will steal an hour of vital daylight from the morning and place it at the other end of the day and that will be the case whether you live in Glasgow, Belfast or London. It's not extra daylight, it's certainly not extra sunlight, not even parliament can give you that. The fact is that the important problem with CET has got to be the safety, particularly the safety of our children. Now those of you who can remember back to the last time we tried this time swap experiment will remember the dayglow armbands, the florescent jackets that all our youngsters had to wear, going out to school in the dark in all sorts of weather conditions. Accidents in the morning went up and that's why there was an outcry. At the moment, the vast majority of our youngsters go to school in daylight and they come home in daylight. If CET have their way, then our youngsters will go to school in the dark and come home in daylight. Now those who argue that CET brought about a net reduction in the amount of accidents really don't take into account all the other road safety measures that were introduced at the same time as the CET experiment in the last 60s/1970. We had the breathalyzer, the seventy mile per hour speed limits introduced on the motorways, there were another...a number of other measures that were introduced which have given us some of the best road accident safety records in the whole of Europe and that includes those countries who've got more natural daylight than we've currently got. But it's not just accidents to our youngsters going to school or on paper rounds. There are Post Office workers we've heard of, the bakery delivery people, farmers, all sorts of other people and we know that when the trial was started in 1968, the number of accidents went up. Therefore we've got to ensure that we've tried this experiment before, we mustn't try it again. HUMPHRYS: That's your two minutes up. Thank you very much Nigel Evans. Well now the MPs get a chance to shout at each other, they're well used to doing that so they shouldn't have any difficulty. This is our cross-fire section. Malcolm Bruce and Nigel Evans you have five minutes to test your opponents arguments. MALCOLM BRUCE MP: John Butterfill, can you tell us why you think we have time zones in the first place. JOHN BUTTERFILL MP: We have them to make better use of the time that we have and make better use of daylight which is precisely why we're proposing to change it now and we believe that we will make better use, in fact we know we will - all the statistics show that we spend at the moment too much of the available daylight, not in the depths of winter but in the spring and the autumn we have times when we are actually wasting daylight in the mornings which we can't use then in the afternoons. So there's much more time...usable daylight available under this proposal. BRUCE: That is an explanation of your case about why you want to change the clock but not why, for example, this country is based on Greenwich Mean Time. Do you accept that the Greenwich Nought Meridian goes through Greenwich which is just beside London? BUTTERFILL: Well of course it does, yes. BRUCE: Do you accept that the majority of the British Isles is to the west of that Meridian? BUTTERFILL: Quite a lot of it is yes. BRUCE: But do you believe in geography? BUTTERFILL: I do believe in geography yes. BRUCE: Do you not then accept that what you are proposing is to put Britain into a time zone which no quarter of the British Isles belongs in. A time zone whose main meridian runs through Prague and Stockholm, rather than the natural time zone we live in which runs through London. And do you not accept that this isn't just a Scottish case, what people in Scotland are for, are asking for is for Scotland and the United Kingdom to stay - not on Scottish time but on London time: don't you accept that? BUTTERFILL: No I don't accept that at all because we have a situation where the time zone that we started with the Greenwich Meridian was related to our agrarian economy as it was a very long time ago. We now live in the modern world, with much more capability of adapting and we live in a world that is entirely different from the one that was established when we set up the time. BRUCE: So you think our position on the globe has actually moved physically. BUTTERFILL: No I don't but I think you are living in a time warp...(laughter)... BRUCE: I'm living on a round world not a flat one (applause). EVANS: John you have to accept that over the past twenty-five years we've seen a dramatic decrease in the amount of accidents on our roads. That's got nothing to do with switching daylight. BUTTERFILL: No nothing at all and in effect that is all taken into account in the Department of Transport's own figures. When they anaylse the experiment between '67 and '71 they looked at the situation then and they then adjusted all those figures to take into account quite right, of the improvements in roads, the improvements in vehicles, legislation on the breathalyser, the legislation on seatbelts. All of which have reduced accidents but that's all been taken into account in the Department's own figures and yet they still believe we would reduce two thousand injuries a year and have a hundred and ten fewer deaths even after taking all that into account. You're shaking your head but RoSPA agree with them, the police agree with them, the AA agree with them, the RAC agree with them. EVANS: The fact is that there are...the greatest number of accidents that occur to youngsters particularly occur in the summer when there's more daylight around. BUTTERFILL: Of course they do because that's when they're playing after school. EVANS: You're going to give them an extra hour of daylight to play after school (applause) BUTTERFILL: If you take all accidents involving children, only eighteen per cent occur on the journey to and from school. The other eighty-two per cent occur after school and of course they are much more vulnerable when it's dark and if you don't believe that then ask parents in the audience here whether they like the idea of their children playing after dark, after school, of course they don't and that's when they're most at risk. EVANS: You ask those parents who in the 1970s remember sending their children out wearing dayglow armbands and florescent jackets. They hated the idea, there was an outcry in the 1970s, why do you think the House of Commons rejected by three hundred and sixty-six votes to eight-one in 1970, against ending the British Standard time experiment. BUTTERFILL: Because there was a terrible accident in Stornoway in the mornings when several children were killed. It was picked up by some of the tabloids who waged a national campaign based on anecdotal evidence and they totally overlooked the fact that the total number of accidents was dramatically reduced. You know that can happen when the tabloids run a campaign, that's why it was rejected and they overlooked the real evidence. BRUCE: George, what about the effect of double summer time. You know in Scotland we have relatively light evenings. How do you feel, how do you think the people of Glasgow are going to feel about sunset coming at ten past eleven and how do you think you are going to get the children in, out of risk of traffic accidents when the sun is still shining well after eleven o'clock. GEORGE FOULKES MP: I think they are going to be absolutely delighted to have an hour's extra daylight in the evening. Extra for leisure, extra for tourism. Mine is a tourist constituency like yours. This will allow more people to come in spring and summer, much greater use of the facilities in my constituency. At the moment there are hours of daylight in spring and autumn, before you get up which you don't make use of and you're awake while
it's still dark. An extra hour of daylight which can be made use of. And all your arguments have been about Scotland.... BRUCE: No they haven't... FOULKES: No they have. BRUCE: Sorry George.... FOULKES: And about winter and about winter, we're not just talking about Scotland in winter, we're talking about the whole UK and the whole year round. BRUCE: My opening question I pointed out was about Greenwich Mean Time. Greenwich is in London, not Scotland. FOULKES: But time zones.... BRUCE: George, can you answer a question. FOULKES: Time zones are based on... BRUCE: Will you answer a question - double summer time has not been experimented with since the war, are you saying that you know that it will not cause more accidents? HUMPHRYS: Brief answer to that George. FOULKES: Well RoSPA wouldn't support this. Their whole purpose in life is to stop, to reduce accidents. They wouldn't support it, if they didn't believe it wouldn't have that kind of effect. HUMPHRYS: Right, thank you very much, that's the end of your cross-examination. Let me now unleash the audience, who clearly have some fairly strong views of their own, judging by the response to some of those points. Many of you applauded then when the question of accidents to children was raised, the greater danger to accidents of children. Can I have some points about that please from those of you. Yes, Sir, gentleman on the far right. UNNAMED MAN: I live on a busy road. I have a school for rising five to elevens down one end; in the middle a similar school, on the other end a comprehensive. From my desk in my front garden I can see the way children behave. Going home in the evening no problem, they're quite lethargic, they muck about a bit. But, when they go to school in the morning with a Mars Bar or a packet of chips in one hand, and they're late, they do silly things in daylight. Give them that in the dark and there's a recipe for disaster. HUMPHRYS: Alright, somebody else with a point on that. Yes, sir, the gentleman with a beard in the second row here. UNNAMED MAN: I remember very clearly the experiment to which has been referred to in the late Sixties. I lived then, I live now in the south of England in Surrey. The Scots can certainly look after their own corner extremely well. I'll speak for the south of England. I had children going to school who had to go to school in the dark as opposed to going to school in the light. I was driving fifteen miles to work in the dark, leaving home at eight o'clock, and believe you me, you are not alert in the morning when you fall into your car. And, the experiment was stopped because there was an increase in road accidents despite what the great and the good are now telling us. HUMPHRYS: Does anybody else remember that experiment and want to comment on that? Who's against changing? Oh yeah, the gentleman in the white shirt. UNNAMED MAN: Yes, I felt during the time that we had that experiment I got the feeling that there was a form of depression among people. They were saddened by the grey skies for so long. The winter time appeared to be longer than normal. It affected their work. HUMPHRYS: Yes, George - Mr Foulkes, Mr Butterfill. FOULKES: I think it's completely wrong to say that people are less alert in the morning. By definition they're wider awake in the morning. HUMPHRYS: Some perhaps. FOULKES: Well I am - I was up very early this morning to get here - I was wider awake, I think drivers are wider awake. Children dawdle home to school. Drivers are tired by four o'clock in the afternoon. That's when accidents are likely to happen much more. HUMPHRYS: Go on - you wanted to come back on that. UNNAMED MAN: I assure you that the facts are as I stated and the research at the time showed that drivers were less alert in the morning and there were children on the road and it was quite a terrific spell. HUMPHRYS: Alright, lady in the front here, a quick thought on that. UNNAMED WOMAN: I find that the smaller children are taken to school and picked up, but in the evenings it's the say - eleven, twelve year olds that are too embarrassed for their parents to pick them up, so they dawdle home on their own, quite a lot where I live, and it's very very dangerous and very vulnerable for them. HUMPHRYS: Alright, what about the changes to your lifestyle, things like you know, sport activities and all that. Anybody with some thoughts on that, who's against changing. The lady in the second row here. UNNAMED MAN: No, I'm for changing. HUMPHRYS: Oh, you're for changing, I want people who are against change at the moment, and I've come to you sir. What about the gentleman in the front row here with the waistcoat? UNNAMED MAN: You made a comment about playing golf in Scotland in the winter. If you've found a course in Scotland where you can play golf after three o'clock I'd very much like to know where that is. HUMPHRYS: He's an MP of course he has. BUTTERFILL: Well of course there's Turnbury but of course the whole point of the proposal is that you will be able to - at the moment you can't. I mean I was up in Scotland over the New Year, and I went up actually to try and ski in Glenshea (phon.). Now they have to come off the slopes of Glenshea at three-thirty at this time of year. They'd be able to stay as they can in the rest of Europe, on the slopes till four-thirty, and the same applies to golfing. You're quite right. At the moment, with the time that we've got at the moment you can't play a round of golf in the afternoon, but you can afterwards. That's why the people who run Gleneagles are so keen on this change because it will boost their economy. HUMPHRYS: Do we have any farmers in the audience who are against change. You're a farmer are you - yes sir? UNNAMED FARMER: We are a fairly large farm of arable farmers and plant hire contractors. HUMPHRYS: Where are you based? FARMER: Cornwall. HUMPHYRS: Right, should have guessed shouldn't I? FARMER: At the moment we start work at eight o'clock in the morning, and we finish at five, so that means all our operations are carried out in daylight. You're talking about the children's safety - what about my staff's safety? In large farms now-a-days and also in plant hire we use very dangerous machinery, and one of the banes of our life are the health and safety. If this comes in I think we shall have a lot more problems. HUMPHRYS: Right, any other farmers who might have a thought on that? Yes, the lady in the second row with the check .. UNNAMED WOMAN: Yes, from Scotland. Livestock farmers will be a quarter of the way through their working day at ten o'clock in the morning before they are able to get on the land to tend stock. I think it's utterly ridiculous. It's something imposed by the south of England which we neither want nor need. HUMPHRYS: Well, gentlemen. FOULKES: I represent a farming constituency, a very large farming constituency, and to be honest it's been my experience that their operations are quite irrelevant to what's happening, what the time is for everyone else. I've never seen a cow with an alarm clock for example. I very seldom see a farmer with a wrist watch because they can get on with things on the land irrespective of what the time is for the rest of us, and I think the arguments as far as farming is concerned are quite irrelevant. They go by sunrise and sunset, spring, summer, autumn and winter. HUMPHRYS: What about the European dimension
that somebody raised, that one of the films raised earlier, because there is this factor that we're out of line with Europe at the moment. Who is against changing the time and concerned about getting in line with Europe as it were. Anybody worried about that. Yes, gentleman in the front? UNNAMED MAN: I'm certainly against changing the time just merely for the fact of getting in time with Europe, because surely despite what the statistics said, we still deal with America and Japan and the Pacific basin particularly coming up, which are way out of our time zone, and with all these electronic systems you've got now-a-days there shouldn't be any reason whatsoever to actually change just to get in line with Europe. HUMPHRYS: Quick thought on that gentlemen, and then we're going to move on. BUTTERFILL: Well at the moment we have a very severe problem. They start work an hour before us, they go to lunch an hour before us, then we go to lunch, and then they pack up an hour before us. That's four hours in the working day when they can't actually be doing business with each other properly. HUMPHRYS: Right, there we stop it because you've had your correct time for the cross-examination we move to the other side now, and we give John Butterfill and George Foulkes the opportunity to cross examine the other two who want to leave things as they are. Gentlemen. FOULKES: Malcolm, your case is concentrated on Scotland, it's concentrated on winter, and it's concentrated on people's fears and people's worries. Do you not agree that in spring, in summer and in autumn we have a lot of hours of sunlight, of daylight before we get up and a lot of hours of darkness while we're still awake in the evening, and wouldn't it provide more time for leisure, for sport, if we made this switch? BRUCE: I don't think that's a valid argument at all. I think the first point you have to look at is that the British Isles slope north-east to south-west, and the consequence of that is the further west you are, the further north you are the difference in the day. The second point you have to take on board is that we have a very long day in the summer - we have summer time to deal with that. Double summer time means children will be out after eleven o'clock exposed to accident and risk, and can I just repeat the point about school times. Most of the accidents incidentally don't happen on the way to or from school, but in London and Aberdeen children go to school in the dark, and you will extend that period. All children up to Aberdeen included, go home in the daylight. FOULKES: I think we've had a lot of arguments about accidents Malcolm. What I'm talking about is leisure. Have you never been woken up at three or four o'clock in the morning by the birds singing as daylight comes in, thinking, wouldn't it be great to have that hour extra early at night to get on with sport, to get on with tennis, to get on with the kind of activities that John was talking about earlier on. Do you know that there's been a calculation that the boost to tourism will be one point two-billion pounds. That's what the tourist board have said. Do you not think that's a valuable addition? BRUCE: Well, ask the people who organise open air concerts, firework displays, the son et lumieres how you're going to set off the fireworks and light up the lights when the sun's still shining in the sky...(applause) And they're based in the south of England by the way. FOULKES: Do you think there are more people who are concerned with, who are worried about son et lumiere and fireworks displays than there are about golf, about football, about rugby, about all of these other spectator activities. BRUCE: We have more daylight in this country in the summer than people do in Spain and France and Italy. We're already better off, we don't need to make it more exaggerated than it is. EVANS: But George I think more people are probably worried about the accidents to people who are farmers or to postmen and youngsters going to school in the morning than they are about getting an extra hour or golf in in Scotland if you have your way. BUTTERFILL: Nigel, what would you say then to the elderly people who feel trapped in their homes. What would you say to age concern who very much worry about the elderly, who don't feel they can go out most of the time during the winter. Don't you think they deserve a better break than they get at the moment. EVANS: Well, tell Age Concern, please would you mind responding to one of my constituents who I spoke to yesterday who is an elderly lady, who has written to them and said "We don't want Central European Time. As you know John there are a lot of people, there are a lot of robberies, I think it's two-thirds that take place during daylight than take place in the evenings, do you not think that criminals have got initiative enough, that if you alter your times by an hour, that they will also alter their practices as well? BUTTERFILL: Well, don't you listen to the evidence that's given to you by those who really know about this, that's the police, the Police Federation, the National Association of Chief Police Officers, and the Home Office themselves who are quite convinced that we would save about two-hundred thousand crimes a year, and how would you respond also to the BMA who say we would be a healthier nation. BRUCE: John, these claims have not been substantiated, indeed your film said the police believe. Well they're entitled to their beliefs, but I think that is not a good evidence for making such a fundamental shift. FOULKES: There are statistics that show quite clearly that crimes take place under cover of darkness in the evening, not at dawn. Criminals don't go around at dawn. EVANS: But George, some of the crimes that you're talking about which are assaults against other people take place just after the pubs have closed at eleven o'clock. This isn't going to matter whether it's daylight or not. FOULKES: Well, there aren't many older people coming out of the pubs at eleven o'clock. EVANS: No, I'm not talking about older people, I'm just talking about assaults to young people. FOULKES: It is a matter of particular concern for the elderly. You mentioned one person. Age Concern
as a whole are desperately worried about. Old people are not going out to lunch clubs, they're not going out to afternoon sessions to meet people, to meet other elderly people because they're worried about going home in the dark. That will allow them to go out and enjoy themselves and meet other old people. EVANS: George, I accept that there is a fear of crime. We heard in your report, the lady in London going back to her house at two o'clock in the afternoon, when it's broad daylight then. I think that there is an unreasonable fear of crime as compared to the actuality of crime and I think that's a job for government to get that message across to people. FOULKES: Can I ask Malcolm the one I raised earlier on about farmers. Does he not agree that as far as famers are concerned their operations are completely divorced from the time the rest of us are concerned about. The time of day is irrelevant to them. BRUCE: Farmers funnily enough have children and they have to get up to organise their day around .. FOULKES: We're talking about farming. BRUCE: I know, but they have to organise both of those things, and they're up in any case. The second point is if that argument applies to farmers it equally applies to business poeple who can organise their time of day to suit the European clock, and incidentally by getting ourselves closer to Europe we get ourselves further away from America. That doesn't help the City of London's dealings with Wall Street. HUMPHRYS: Right, gentlemen thank you. And members of the audience, you can have a crack now. Can I just perhaps first get you to comment because we heard other people who were in the middle of the experiment the first time we fiddled about with the clocks and who didn't like it. Anybody here who did like that, who remembers that experiment and did like it? UNNAMED WOMAN: I, I quite enjoyed coming home in the evenings and you had longer sometimes. And, what I wanted to say is that the British are slow to change, like with a lot of other things. So, we adapt very slowly to change and other things. When they mention about children coming home, accidents happening in the morning, the children. I was quite young then and I enjoyed the longer hour of evening, you know of daylight in the evenings. Also, the feelgood factor, you forget to mention that. About people. We have leisure activities to do, to take part in and we feel better. HUMPHRYS: You can answer that, in a moment. Let me just see if anyone else shares that view. UNNAMED MAN: Well, there are a vast number of people whom we haven't talked about here and there are people involved in manufacturing in this country, who generally start their days early in the morning anyway. And, when I was involved in manufacturing - not actually on the shopfloor - at least, when we had the changes, people had the opportunity to get home and see some daylight. Most people involved in manufacturing in the heartland and the Midlands and the northeast don't see any daylight atg all in the winter, at that moment. HUMPHRYS: Anybody else with that? In that general area? Lady right at the very back there - yeah? UNNAMED WOMAN: Yes, my husband's a butcher and market days he's away by half past four and it's seven o'clock in the evening when he gets home. By the same token, I think, young children - yes, they'd enjoy the extra hour, until eleven o'clock at night - but what about the mother and getting up for school the next day. HUMPHRYS: Right. UNNAMED MAN: The one thing that we've really not talked about. You've talked about the winter and how wonderful it's going to be to get this extra hour so everybody will be on the golf courses and playing tennis and goodness knows what. But, what about the weather? We have severe dangerous weather in the winter and, of course, it's very icy and cold in the mornings, as well. Now, you've got one and a half million construction workers in this country who'll be out in the cold, in frosty conditions - never mind the schoolchildren we've talked about. It's extremely dangerous for them and the last time we tried this experiment, we saw that the number of accidents involved on construction sites went up. So, we talk about road accidents - yes that's one thing - but what about accidents at work as well. It's extremely dangerous for them. HUMPHRYS: Gentleman, at the back there. UNNAMED MAN: Further to that point, there. I think, the building industry, especially in Scotland, they'll have to change their starting time. Here, we start at eight o'clock in the morning and it's dark. We don't really get started at work until half past eight, nine o'clock - even. You know, if it's pitch dark at nine o'clock we're not going to get started until ten o'clock. Employers are going to start changing times of starting work in the mornings, you know. UNNAMED MAN: But, the industry themselves see they've got problems with that because of the lorries coming onto the roads, therefore, at exactly the same time as the children are going to school. So, there's a dangerous problem there. HUMPHRYS: Gentleman, towards the back there, with his hand up - yes, sir! UNNAMED MAN: Can I raise a minority point? I'm a member of the Jewish religion. There are, I think, Jews and Muslims in this country very grateful for the fact that laws in this country allow us to practice our religion. There would be some real practical difficulties for members of the Jewish faith, anybody who's observant, to be able to fulfill the requirements of their faith. HUMPHRYS: Which is what? UNNAMED MAN: I can give you two or three very quick examples. The Day of Atonement is one of our many fast days. We don't fast from dusk to dusk. That means we start in the evening and we have to finish the following evening. And, if the Day of Atonement was extended by an extra hour - to eight or nine o'clock in the evening, it would make it very difficult. The Sabbath, for example, it would go out in Scotland midnight or one o'clock in the morning. And, the most hard problem which we would face is for those people who would want to pray in the morning. They would need a quorum of ten people. At the moment, we can get a quorum at eight o'clock in the morning. If that quorum was made to nine o'clock in the morning, it would be impossible for people who go to work or school to find a quorum. I know, it's a minority point but it is a serious point. BUTTERFILL: I have discussed this with the Board of Deputies and I would like to come in on it. HUMPHRYS: You're not allowed to come in at this stage because it's Nigel Evans and Malcolm Bruce's turn. BRUCE MP: Well, I do actually think that we need to be sensitive to minorities and can I repudiate the suggestion that Scotland is somehow the only part of this country that's concerned about it. I've already pointed out that sunrise in London, under John Butterfill's proposals, would be after nine o'clock. And, nobody has mentioned the problem of Ireland which because it's north and west. Do you really want to divide the country of Ireland not only on religion and politics but also on time? Because Northern Ireland would be in one time zone and the Republic would be in another. Or, are we voting for the people of the Republic of Ireland without even giving them a chance to participate? HUMPHRYS: No, no, no. You're not allowed to come in, yet. And, restrain yourselves. You'll have another chance in a minute and I want - remember - let's arguments for change against these two who are against it. So, who wants change? And, perhaps, on this crime factor that's been raised a number of times. Anyone here feel that it would help the fight against crime if we were to change the hours? Yes, lady towards the right - a second ago. UNNAMED WOMAN: I think - I mean, everybody's been speaking about children and accidents and things. But, I think, if we did change the time a lot of women would feel safer of an evening as well. HUMPHRYS: Would you - yourself? UNNAMED WOMAN: Yes, I would. I spend a lot of time of an evening on my own out in the car and I know I would feel a lot safer with that extra hour of daylight. HUMPHRYS: What about the difference in the morning? UNNAMED WOMAN: I'm talking about later in the evening. I mean in the mornings there's so much hustle and bustle. HUMPHRYS: You don't feel so threatened in the mornings - it's the evenings that you feel threatened? Well, that's an important point, isn't it? EVANS: Yeah, but a lot of people who go from work back home, even from their work even with John's bill will find that it's already getting dark at about half past five anyway, in London. So, they're not going to really going to get any of the benefits of it. I think, there are a lot of crimes that take place in the day already. As I talk about robberies, two-thirds of them take place at day. Criminals are extremely entrepreneurial people and they will just adjust their time clocks to whatever the circumstances.... HUMPHRYS: Talking about entrepreneurs, are there any business people in the audience who feel they would be helped by changing the times? UNNAMED MAN: Well, I actually work in the sports industry and if you take say, football matches, where you have a major - a large - amount of people congregating. Now, matches on a Saturday start at three o'clock. For most of the winter, it's dark. The game- One is the cost to the clubs - floodlighting. People going home in the dark. HUMPHRYS: And, there's a lady, I think, towards the back - Tourism - who's got a point to make about that. No, there isn't. Alright. EVANS: I thought, John, that if you're talking about professional football it was more dictated by Murdoch these days, rather than when the sun came up or went down! HUMPHRYS: Anybody else got a quick point, in favour of change. We heard from you a moment ago, Sir. Anybody else? Yes, gentleman there, with the - tie? Yeah. UNNAMED MAN: On balance, I'm in favour of change but what I would have liked to have heard from someone is the effects on the people who have had to make major adjustments within the European time area. For example, if it's dark at five o'clock at Calais, it's been dark in Poland at half past three and, again, Norway and Sweden is north of Edinburgh, with its large industry and agriculture. Oslo, half a million people - how do they get over these problems? HUMPHRYS: Five seconds to deal with that, gentlemen. BRUCE: Well, if you're talking about Oslo, of course, Oslo is in the Central European time zone and this is the fundamental point of geography. A time zone is approximately an hour. We're trying to stretch this time zone to cover three hours. The wider the time zone, the more the disparity, the greater the discomfort you're causing. HUMPHRYS: Right. Thank you very much. Now, let us hear the final arguments from the MPs - the summation for and against changing our clocks. But, before we do that, we've prepared a rather graphic illustration of how life would change in Britain. First, let's look at how it is at the moment. Dawn at the bottom of the country, in Plymouth. The sun has risen at quarter to eight. At the top of the country, in Inverness, it doesn't really get light until half past eight. So, let's speed through the day, now. By quarter past two, it's already getting dark in Inverness. It's an hour later before Plymouth loses its light. And, now, just one minute for Malcolm Bruce to tell us why he thinks things should stay like that. Mr Bruce: BRUCE: Thank you, John. Well, I think, the first thing we should not do is fly in the face of geography. The British Isles is not in the European Central time zone. It would be wrong to force us where we don't belong. We should leave the people who are in that time zone properly where they belong. Secondly, the argument about accidents is simply not proven. First of all, the figures are inconclusive; secondly, a whole range of possible effects have not even been examined - such as industrial accidents, the effect on postal workers and, indeed, the effects on people's general state of health, the effect of seasonally affected syndrome, the effect of people who suffer from depression from dark mornings. These factors have not been taken into account and we're being asked to make a fundamental change, against geography, on the basis of information which, simply, doesn't add up. The business argument doesn't add up either because people can adjust and we are in Europe and can still do business with Europe. We would, of course, stop ourselves from overlapping effectively with America, which is a major trading partner, which would disadvantage us, and these arguments apply just as forcefully in London, as they do in the north of Scotland - they're just more exaggerated the further north and west you go. HUMPHRYS: Thank you very much indeed, Malcolm Bruce. Well, now, George Foulkes wants to change things. Let's see the effect his proposals would have: Once again quarter to eight in Plymouth but it's dark now. It stays dark for another hour. The sun doesn't rise until quarter to nine. Of course, in Inverness it isn't getting light until half past nine. So, let's speed through the day again. Inverness now has daylight until half past three instead of half past two. And, down in Plymouth, of course, they don't need to switch the lights on until quarter past four. And now one minute for George Foulkes to summarise his case for that change. FOULKES: Thank you John. As the audience saw, I'm keen to argue for change! You heard a lot of emotional argument from the other side. Talk of time bandits, of daylight robbery. No one can take an hour of daylight away from you but no one can give you an extra hour of daylight either. What we're saying is that the daylight we have, whether it's in winter or in summer should be used more effectively. More effectively for sport, for leisure, for Tourism. We're also saying that RoSPA - who have no reason to lie about accidents - say that there would be less accidents if we made change. Age Concern who have no reason to lie about the care of the elderly say the elderly would be more comfortable if they have change. That's
why we're arguing the case. All the people who are concerned about accidents, concerned about the elderly, concerned about Tourism, concerned about industry in Britain want the change. That's why we urge you make that change now. APPLAUSE HUMPHRYS: George Foulkes, thank you very much. So, there we are. We've heard all the arguments - at least, I think, we've heard all the arguments. And, now let's see what effect, if any, they have had on our audience here in the studio. Let me just repeat what I said a little earlier: this is not a representative cross-section of the British public anyway. There is a disproportionate number of Scots here, for a start. So,
Scots and all, let's have another vote. Are you, at this stage, having heard the arguments, are you in favour of changing our clocks, are you in favour of leaving it as it is, or are you still undecided? Will you please vote now. This is the moment of truth and we remember how people voted earlier. Well, there we are. Most of those who were undecided have now made up their minds and the preponderance of them have voted against change. So, the Yes votes who were just ahead by one vote at the beginning of this discussion have lost it to the No votes. Well let me ask somebody who changed his or her mind. It was really on a knife edge earlier but now we've got four per cent in favour. Still, it's very close but nonetheless, those of you who voted for against; those of you who have changed their minds during the course of this debate can you put up your hands and one of you perhaps tell us why. Who changed his/her mind? Yes, sir, you changed your mind. Why? UNNAMED MAN: Yes, I was more convinced by the accidents in the morning argument and I feel that there will be more accidents at that time in the darkness. HUMPHRYS: Yep, anybody else with a similar thought to that or indeed another reason for? Yes, madam. A lady, here. UNNAMED WOMAN: The crime. HUMPHRYS: The crime. UNNAMED WOMAN: We've been told really by our police that most of the crime to houses is in the middle of the afternoon. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. There was a lady here, as well. You changed your mind. UNNAMED WOMAN: A lot of emphasis has been put on sport but I think that's probably a minor part of it. I feel that industry and business etc., we haven't really suffered because of one hour and I don't think we will in the future and I think that it seems to me another step in losing our identity as being British as well, to Europe. HUMPHRYS: Yes, lady here in the front. Did you change your mind, first of all? UNNAMED WOMAN: No I haven't. HUMPHRYS: You haven't changed your mind. UNNAMED WOMAN: I was surprised that they're changing their mind on the accidents when he's got the figures there. So, I can't appreciate that. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. OK. Right, anybody else who has changed thir mind? Perhaps any Scots who've changed their mind - may have felt one way at the beginning? Yes, gentleman there. UNNAMED MAN: The point about the sport. Football and rugby are primarily played in the afternoon and they change their kick-off times from three to two-thirty to two to compensate for the light. Golf and tennis are primarily summer sports when there is more light anyway. HUMPHRYS: Quick chance for just another one or two very very quick comments, one or two people who - you didn't change your mind did you, or did you? UNNAMED MAN: No, I didn't change my mind but I just want to make one comment. I hope the MPs before they vote look very carefully at the statistical evidence, especially the Home Office Paper that came out in '89, which did say that crime and children would be affected. HUMPHRYS: Right. Change your mind - anybody change their mind? One more change your mind and then we're going to have to call it a day. One more final thought then from that gentleman there. Very quick we've only got about three seconds. UNNAMED MAN: No one's really addressed the-for industry with the lighter afternoons, with the issue of energy. You say... HUMPHRYS: Alright, an energy saving point but there we have to end it, I'm afraid, because time has caught up with us. My thanks to the audience and our MPs. That's it for this week. On The Record will be back in its usual form and at the usual time next Sunday. Twelve-thirty throughout the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. Good afternoon. ...oooOooo...