................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 4.2.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Terry Dignan reporting. Ron Davies, have you really got a policy? It seems you don't. RON DAVIES MP: We have a very clear policy and it was endorsed unanimously by the last Labour Party Conference in LLandudno last year. Tony Blair made the speech extracts which you've shown which made it clear that that was the agreed policy. He urged everyone present to support that - Conference endorsed that policy and that is a very clear policy which commands broad support. If I might say so the people that you interviewed on the screen a moment or so ago indicated those who were more enthusiastic for the assembly and than those who were perhaps less enthusiastic, but they really are the outriders of the argument. The Party in Wales is united behind a very clear policy. HUMPHRYS: Well, most of those who spoke to you were MPs, but I mean they're not clear, obviously, from what you heard there. They're absolutely opposing each other on all sorts of important areas of this policy. So, they're not clear what your policy is. DAVIES: Yes, there are a couple of areas which have been the subject of debate. But the policy is settled (sic). HUMPHRYS: Key areas? DAVIES: Well, there are a couple of policies, not the key areas. The key area if I might say so is the face that the Labour Party in Wales is committed unanimously to legislate for an elected assembly after taking office. And, if there is a great divide in Welsh politics at the moment it's between those of us who are arguing for a directly elected assembly and those, principally the Conservative Party who believe that everything is right with our democracy in Wales and who want to retain the status quo. HUMPHRYS: Well, if only from your point of view, if only it were that simple. It's not just that they don't - that they're disagreeing about the policy - they're not even clear what it is, what policy you have got. That's the problem, and we saw it very vividly illustrated in that film. DAVIES: But that's not true. The fact of the matter is there is a very good document was presented to our conference last year at LLandudno, Shaping the Vision, and that was endorsed unanimously. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, and is now being interpreted by all sorts of people in all sorts of different ways. DAVIES: Well, if you choose to go out and interview individuals and put questions to them, they will obviously respond to those questions. But I know that the Welsh Executive, the Parliamentary Labour Party and certainly the front bench and the leadership of the Labour Party nationally wants to see the principles contained in Shaping the Vision put before the people of Wales at the next Election, and legislated upon. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, let's look at some of the areas of the policy, then. Let's look first at how the members of this assembly would be elected: Proportional Representation. Now what is the Party's policy? People on the Commission obviously wanted Proportional Representation. It was thrown out by the Executive and then by the conference. Now that seems to be unravelling. DAVIES: Well, let me be clear. The Commission was charged with a task by the Executive of consulting the people of Wales. It consulted widely both within the Labour Party and outside the Labour Party, and obviously when you're having a consultation exercise, alternative views are put forward. That is the whole purpose of the consultation. Views were expressed both in favour of first past the post and in favour of the various schemes of Proportional Representation. At the end of the day, however, the Commission put the alternatives to the Executive and the Executive's preferred option was to retain the first past the post system. They did so on the basis that we're familiar with that system, people understand it. And, when we are creating a new institution where obviously there are doubts about how it will operate and so on, it's best to stick to that which people are comfortable and familiar with. And, that view was endorsed by the Party Conference and as far as I'm aware there are no proposals to change that. HUMPHRYS: No proposals to change that. It is cast in stone forever, is that right? DAVIES: There are no proposals to change it, but, clearly, as I indicated earlier on, when you're having a process of consultation people do and must feel free to express their own views on the matter. HUMPHRYS: So it might be changed? DAVIES: No. I'm saying when you have a process of consultation, that process of consultation was completed last year. The Executive decided that its preferred option was first past the post, that went to Party conference, that was endorsed and that remains the policy of the moment. HUMPHRYS: Ah, you said 'at the moment'. DAVIES: Well, at this moment in time. I'm- If your next question is: am I proposing to change it? The answer is: I'm not proposing the change it. HUMPHRYS: Alright, let me phrase that question in my own way then, rather than, are you proposing the change it? Is it possible that it might be changed? DAVIES: It's a theoretical possiblity, but I don't believe it will. I think that the overwhelming opinion within the Labour Party in Wales is that the policy is now settled for the next Election. We will fight the General Election on the basis of the policies endorsed by our last conference. HUMPHRYS: Right. But if there are proposals at the Party Conference that it should change, it is possible that it might change? DAVIES: It's theoretically possible, but I must say that I wouldn't advocate that course of action. HUMPHRYS: Even though you're in favour of Proportional Representation? DAVIES: If I could just answer the question. I wouldn't personally advocate that course of action, and I'll give you the reason why in a moment. Neither do I think that it is likely that we will have a debate at Party Conference, and the reason is quite clear. At last year's conference we did have this unanimity in support of the proposals, and I think that the great prize of the Labour Party of Wales has been able to achieve during the last twelve or eighteen months is to win the argument about devolution. And, when the next Election comes, I want the principles of devolution, our need to do away with the undemocratic, the corrupt, the authoritarian government that we've had in Wales, I want to do away with that, and have elected a directly elected assembly governing our affairs. And, that's a prize worth having. HUMPHRYS: And you reckon that it would be entirely democratic if this new assembly were to be dominated as it surely would be under "first past the post", by a group of Labour MPs largely from the South-East of Wales? DAVIES: Well, the composition of the assembly obviously will reflect the views of the people of Wales. I personally believe that when we're constructing the assembly we have to construct it in a way which makes people throughout Wales - be they living in North Wales, or South Wales, industrial Wales or rural Wales - we have to create the assembly in such a way that people feel comfortable with it. Now the argument... HUMPHRYS: But that's exactly the point isn't it that John Marek was making there, that people in North Wales simply will not accept this. They will see that it's run by what used to be called the Taffyia (phon). Of course they wont' accept this. DAVIES: As an ex-Cardiff boy, you would know about the Taffyia of course? HUMPHRYS: Yes, absolutely. It was there then - it's there now. DAVIES: You will argue-you will argue the case that PR is central to that objective of making the assembly. HUMPHRYS: I argue nothing. I merely represent the arguments of others, and they are arguing very persuasivly. DAVIES: You're presenting that argument. I
understand and I accept the view that the adoption of a Proportional Representation system is one way of making the assembly inclusive. But I must make it clear that in the consultations that we had there was no consensus in favour of one scheme or another. The Labour Party Executive has come to its view, conference has taken its view, and we must go forward. And I believe that there are a number of other ways in which we can make the assembly inclusive by making sure that within the Labour Party of Wales for example, our own procedures are as opening and as democratic - are as inviting as possible. HUMPHRYS: So, the fact is that you've been steamrollered haven't you here, by a group of Welsh MPs, as I say largely from the south-east of Wales who wouldn't have it the other way. And that's that, what they want they get. That's how it works. DAVIES: That isn't the case. The policy was determined by the Welsh Executive and that view was endorsed by the Labour Party conference last year unanimously. I can assure you that there's no question of anybody steamrollering anybody else. HUMPHRYS: Alright. DAVIES: The fact of the matter is that there are honestly held differences of opinion. Those views have been expressed. We've now come to a consensus on what the way forward should be and the question of PR I must say is only one, very, very small part of the argument for devolution. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's look at an area then where they're arguing not just about how it ought to be, but what the policy actually is, and that is the power of this assembly. Some say they think they're going to have a talking shop and that's it. Others say it is going to have this assembly. It's going to have real powers, powers of primary legislation, the powers of a Parliament. What is it going to have? DAVIES: Well, you're offering me two alternatives and I'll tell you what the agreed policy is. The conference accepted the view of the Executive that we should have a directly elected assembly which basically would take over the powers currently discharged by the Welsh Office. The reason for that is quite clear. Interestingly you were interviewing John Redwood earlier on. You didn't ask him about his proposals to privatise natural nature reserves or the-. HUMPHRYS: No, no, that's not what the interview was going to be about. DAVIES: Indeed, but this is the argument for devolution. The scandals that we have of Tory appointments to quangos, the way that the Welsh Office operates in a very secretive way, the fact that he, a Member of Parliament representing a Constituency in Reading was able virtually single-handedly to bankrupt the Welsh Development Agency. Now those things wouldn't have happened had we had a directly-elected tier of government in Wales. And, the determination now is to ensure that the functions of the Welsh Office, the allocation of seven billion pounds of Public Expenditure, control over a whole range of Executive functions, the responsiblity of representing the Welsh interest in discussions at Cabinet, and crucially a range of secondary legislative powers, all of those will be transferred. I knew you wanted.... HUMPHRYS: Secondary legislated powers. Not primary legislation, so the people we talked to on that film, who said this has gone. I mean not: "we would like it to have". But when you read your document, what it says is "this has primary legislated powers, therefore it is a proper...." They're wrong, they've misunderstood. DAVIES: The document doesn't say that. HUMPHRYS: No, but they've interpreted it as saying that. DAVIES: What I've explained to you is that whole range of functions which it is agreed will transfer to the assembly. There is an area and the document that we agreed at conference last year, in paragraph 44, if you have it in front of you John.. HUMPHRYS: Well I've read it yes. DAVIES: Refers to the fact that there may be a need, in specified areas, the point that Wayne David was making on your film, in specified areas: dealing with quangos, dealing with local government and dealing with the Welsh language. In those areas, there may be a need, in those specified areas, to transfer other powers to the assembly. Now... HUMPHRYS: Primary powers, powers of primary legislation? DAVIES: I actually think that the debate which you are trying to develope between primary and secondary legislation.... HUMPHRYS: I don't know that we are trying to develope any debate...the debate exists in Wales, as you well know, and a real debate at that. DAVIES: But I think, with respect, the way that you are presenting that, indicates that there is this fundamental division within the Labour Party. There isn't a fundamental division, let me assure you. The majority in the Labour Party, the overwhelming majority in the Labour Party, is absolutely four-square, behind the proposals that we have which were endorsed, as I've said, by last year's conference. Now within the Labour Party, there are people who would like us to go further and within the Labour Party, there are people who are saying, we are satisfied with the proposals as they stand and we don't want to go any further. Now it's hardly surprising, can I just make this point, it's hardly surprising when you have a major, a radical, very sensible set of proposals for constitutional reform, it's hardly surprising that within the debate you have some people who are more enthusiastic than others. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well on a point of clarity then, as they say, these new powers, these powers that will be devolved to this assembly, even for those areas that you've discussed: Welsh language,quangos and so on, will not be the powers equivalent to primary legislation. They will merely be secondary legislated powers, in other words - tinkering with the mechanics of the thing - they will not be real powers, so it will be a talking shop. DAVIES: It depends how the legislation is framed. HUMPHRYS: Ah, you haven't decided then. DAVIES: We have decided and I am quite happy to tell you precisely what the position is and it will not be a talking shop. It will, as I indicated earlier on, be an assembly with very very substantial powers. The argument that it's a talking shop, really is an argument which is floated by those people who don't want to see any meaningful form of devolution. What the Labour Party has to do, is to make sure that it puts forward to the people of Wales, a form of devolution, which commands broad support. Both within the Labour movement, which attracts support from other political parties, and attracts support from the non-political body in Wales and I am satisfied that our proposals do that. HUMPHRYS: So Wayne David is wrong when he interprets that bit of the document, we recognise, I think I remember the words: recognise the need for some specified powers to be devolved". He is wrong when he interprets that as meaning there will be, because he is quite clear about it, he said so in that report "there will be primary powers for this assembly". DAVIES: Wayne, quite properly identified the three areas: of quangos, of local government, of the Welsh language, where the document says there may be a need for certain specified additional powers to be transferred. HUMPHRYS: He said primary legislated powers. Quite clear about that, he used that very language and he repeated it yes when he was asked about it, no doubt about it. DAVIES: That's what the document says, there may be a need for primary legislative powers in those specified areas to be transferred. What we are now looking at and what the..our commission is looking at, is precisely how the details of the legislation will be framed to give, for example, the assembly its powers to restructure quangos, which was the example that Wayne David used. But to pretend and this is the dichotomy, I think, to pretent that the transfer of specified, specific powers in an active Westminster Parliament to pretend that somehow that is a parallel to the fully fledged Parliament which Scotland has, really is inaccurate portrayal of what the situation is. HUMPHRYS: So Terry Thomas was wrong about that then. I mean Wayne Davies too, I'm now thoroughly confused. Wayne David, says quite categorically, primary powers, you seem to say in that answer: yeah in certain circumstances, they will have primary powers. Terry Thomas says no they won't. DAVIES: The document is quite clear. HUMPHRYS: I've read it about sixteen times and I can't...and so have they and they can't seem to decide either. DAVIES: Well let me as the representative of Labour .... HUMPHRYS: Well they decided, but they decided differently... DAVIES: Well let me as the Labour Party representative here make it absolutely clear, what the position is. The document said, in paragraph 44, there may be a need in certain specified areas, to give further powers to the Welsh Assembly, in respect of quangos, local government and the Welsh... HUMPHRYS: As you say... DAVIES: That's quite clear. What the Labour Party Commission, is currently doing, is defining those areas and looking at the way in which the legislation can be framed to transfer those powers to the Welsh Assembly. But I must make it absolutely clear, that falls far short of any idea that somehow there's a whole tranch of powers of primary legislation being handed over to the assembly. That isn't the policy and that will not be the policy. HUMPHRYS: There is, one thinks, something of a fudge going on here and the reason that there is a fudge going on here is because you cannot sell either of those ideas to a substantial part of the Party, so you've got to try and fudge it. That's the problem that you're facing here isn't it? DAVIES: I can assure you, I can honestly assure you that isn't the case. There is no fudge, it's not a question of selling to either section of the Party because the Party was unanimous in endorsing that policy last year. What we are now trying to do, and the great danger that commentators face, if I might say so, is expecting the Labour Party in opposition, to construct its own detailed legislation. HUMPHRYS: I think we do expect that, so that we can understand it, so that the voters can understand it. DAVIES: We are establishing the principles and the principles are quite clear. What we have to do when we form Government is to then use the Civil Service and use the Parliamentary draughtsmen to ensure that the legislation is constructed in such a way as to meet our objectives. HUMPHRYS: Oh, right - right. So, it's not going to happen until after you get into power then, we're not going to know really what you intend to do until after you're in power? DAVIES: Well-but, I've told you what we intend to do. HUMPHRYS: Well, you've confused me as to what you intend to do. DAVIES: We intend to set up a directly elected assembly with all of the powers that I've indicated and the assembly will be in power to carry out the functions which the Westminster assembly, which the Westminster Parliament wishes to convey to that assembly. And, in respect of those three specified areas, there will be powers which will allow the Welsh Assembly to have the tools to do the job. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well we'll leave people to make of that what they will, but one thing you are absolutely clear about is that there will not be a referendum for the people of Wales to decide? DAVIES: Well it certainly is my view that when the next Election comes, the debate about devolution will be central to the debate in Wales and I am satisfied that we have very clear proposals which command majority support in Wales as a whole. It's unanimously endorsed by the Labour Party. Those proposals will be put. I have every confidence that we will hold the support that we had at the last Election and that we will win the half a dozen or so seats which we need to win in Wales in order to form a Labour Government. That will be a very clear mandate for a set of policies which command very broad support. HUMPHRYS: Well the idea that they're very clear may draw some wry smiles because you've just acknowledged that the details of it won't be sorted out until after you're in power. And, as we all know, the devil lies in the detail. But, in any case- DAVIES: The details of the legislation. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, quite so. But, in any case, why shouldn't Wales be allowed to vote? You're proposing assemblies in certain cases for English regions. They will have a referendum but not the people of
Wales? DAVIES: No, the proposals for England are quite separate and it is recognised in the document for English Regional Government that consent has to be sought from the people and that can be either by a General Election or by a referendum. But in Wales... HUMPHRYS: Ah yes, you're giving them the choice of a referendum. DAVIES: But the situation it quite different. It's quite different in Wales from Scotland; it's quite different in Wales from England. In the case of Wales the-we've had a Secretary of State for some thirty years. We've had a separate Department of State in the Welsh Office and during those thirty years there has been a gradual process of devolution with powers being handed by successive governments - Labour and Conservatives - giving additional powers to the Secretary of State. HUMPHRYS: And there's been a referendum too in Wales and they threw out the idea of devolution. DAVIES: The Regional Government... HUMPHRYS: Overwhelmingly. DAVIES: The Regional Government exists in Wales at the moment and over the last fifteen years, there has been a considerable growth in support for the idea that that Regional Government that we have should be democratised. What we are saying is that come the next General Election, we will be presenting to the people of Wales our proposals for assembly, which will deal with the problems which we've currently identified. If we had a mandate, we will consider then that we are in-that we are given the power by the people to legislate. HUMPHRYS: Some people, Mr Davies, might say that this is the old Labour Party at its worst where we're looking at pure expediency here. You had to do something for Wales because you promised to do something for Scotland and doing this, setting up this sort of assembly with sort of powers which may or may not be prime (sic) and all the rest of it, looked easy but now it's coming unstuck. DAVIES: That isn't the case. The situation, the Constitutional position of Scotland and Wales are quite different. Scotland, up until about three hundred years ago, had its own Parliament, there is a separate legislative process within Westminster for Scottish legislation, the system for English and Welsh legislation is different. HUMPHRYS: I take that point, you made that point. DAVIES: Well let me just reply to your question. HUMPHRYS: Right, very briefly. DAVIES: Our proposals are made in Wales to deal with the difficulties that we have in Wales and to reflect the present circumstances. When the public were last asked in an opinion poll a week ago, sixty seven per cent of the people of Wales warmly endorsed our proposals. HUMPHRYS: Right. I'll tell you what it illustrates though and it's rather interesting, this. It illustrates the divide if you like in Wales between old and new Labour but here we've got Mr Blair coming down on the side of old Labour. Now, isn't that interesting? DAVIES: No, I don't think that's the case at all. I am confident that the real divide - because you want to talk about the divide - the real divide is between the new Labour Party in Wales which has these proposals to renew and to modernise our Constitution and between the forces of reaction which is the Conservative Party. HUMPHRYS: Ron Davies, thank you very much, indeed. DAVIES: Thank you very much. HUMPHRYS: And that's it for this week. I'll be back at half past twelve next Sunday, until then, goodbye. ...ooOOOoo...