................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 11.2.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The Northern Ireland peace process was blown apart by that explosion on Friday night. Can the politicians now put the pieces back together again? I'll be talking to one of the key figures, the Prime Minister of Ireland John Bruton. That's after the news read by Jennie Bond. NEWS HUMPHRYS: The dream of a permanent peace in Northern Ireland was shattered by that bomb on Friday night and in this programme we shall be looking at what the politicians can do now to stop the old nightmare returning. First though to Dublin. There would have been no cease-fire in Northern Ireland if the British and Irish Governments had not been working together. That makes the reaction of Dublin to what happened last Friday absolutely crucial. The Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland is John Bruton and he is in our Dublin studio now. Good afternoon, Mr Bruton. JOHN BRUTON: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: Was this inevitable? BRUTON: No, certainly all Irish politicians
believe it was not. We had made an Act of Faith indeed that Sinn Fein's commitment and the IRA's commitment to peace was irreversible, that there would be no return to violence. We are deeply disappointed now to learn that violence has returned, returned indeed at a time when progress was being made, when the Irish Government and the SDLP were pursuing a common agenda on behalf of the minority community in Northern Ireland to get proximity talks started so that we could begin to make progress. HUMPHRYS: I note you say the Irish.... BRUTON: It is deeply disappointing that in the middle of that a bomb has been detonated, lives have been taken and we extend our sympathy to those who have lost their lives. HUMPHRYS: I note you say the Irish Government and the SDLP were working together. You didn't include the British Government in that? BRUTON: I believe that it is important as a fundamental principle that the two Governments should work together. We had a common agenda and that was that we would between now and the end of February work to clear away the obstacles so that we could have all-party talks including Sinn Fein lodged at the end of February. We were working to that agenda, it was an agreed agenda with the British Government. Having said that I make no moral equivalents between acts of violence which are on a profoundly different plane to mistakes that might be made by politicians and all politicians make mistakes. I belive that the decision to introduce in the middle of this process the idea that there was only two ways forward - one a pre-condition of giving up weapons, or a pre-condition of an election; this open and shut presentation in the House of Commons of the matter earlier this month was a mistake. HUMPHRYS: So, to that extent, the British Government was culpable. Of course, as you say, no moral equivalents whatsoever. I accept that point. BRUTON: Let me hasten to say this. Everybody makes mistakes. This was a mistake, but there is no moral equivalents between using violence to achieve political ends and the mistakes that all Democrats make from time to time in democratic politics. They are on an entirely different plane and I think that it is very important that we make that distinction without any ambiguity. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well now, can the peace process as we recognise it be rescued? BRUTON: I believe it can, but with enormous difficulty. Undoubtedly the Act of Faith that we made to the commitment that Sinn Fein and the IRA had make to peaceful methods could not be reversed. That Act of Faith has been thrown back in our face. So that makes a difficulty. But we are still keeping lines of communication open. We are willing to hear messages from Sinn Fein. While we are not willing to have political meetings with them, communications can be received and will be received from them, and even this morning people from Sinn Fein were talking to people in my office, conveying their views. And we believe that it's only through listening to views of that nature that we'll make progess. We are not going to get ourselves in a position either wherein we negotiate under duress, where we're having a meeting with somebody and a bomb goes off in the middle of the meeting, or we agree something with somebody the day after a bomb has been exploded, and it is presented that it was because of the bomb that something was agreed to. Democrats can't work on that basis. HUMPHRYS: So you are saying that unless there is a return to the cease-fire, quite clearly there will be no negotiations between yourself for instance and Gerry Adams, for instance? BRUTON: I don't think that there's any constitutionual democracy that could function on the basis that it negotiates under threat of violence with people who are its own citizens. HUMPHRYS: And there must be a complete cessation of violence, to use the phrase that has been used to describe this cease-fire, until unless, and until you return to proper talks with Sinn Fein? BRUTON: We want to talk to Gerry Adams about peace, we want to talk to Gerry Adams about how the Republican community can be properly represented in the peace process and in a new agreed settlement. We want the help of Gerry Adams in that regard and the help that we want from him is get the IRA to reinstate the cessation of violence, to go back to the path that was working, we were making progess - very substantial progress. In my view, the Washington three condition had effectively been dropped as a result of the Mitchell Report. The Mitchell Report provided a way, a political way into all party talks. The Irish Government was making progress with its proposal for getting people to talk in the one building, even if not in the one room, its proximity talks idea, that progress, that proposal was gaining momentum. HUMPHRYS: Are you treating... BRUTON: ...we can return to that path so long as the violence stops. HUMPHRYS: Are you treating the IRA and Sinn Fein as one for the purposes of this? BRUTON: The position is, as I understand it, that the IRA uses violence to support the political programme of Sinn Fein. There are two....movement and to the extent that Sinn Fein is willing to accept the use of violence as a political method of bolstering its own political programme, that puts Sinn Fein in a difference category to all other political parties because all other political parties are not willing to accept violence as a means of advancing their programme, they rely soley on their mandate. HUMPHRYS: So there has not only to be the cessation of violence, but there has to be from Sinn Fein, quite clearly a condemnation of what happened on Friday night? BRUTON: No, I think asking people to condemn events that happened either ten years ago, or a year ago or even yesterday is not a productive way forward. I don't believe that infact will happen. I believe asking them to condemn is a waste of time and I don't believe that governments should waste their time. We should concentrate on the main goal which is stopping the violence now, getting them to get the IRA to say we're stopping the killing. That's the objective, not verbal condemnations or words or that sort of thing. We want the killing to stop. HUMPHRYS: But the question is, how in general terms, can that be done. BRUTON: By the IRA deciding to do it and we're offering them an incentive. We're offering them an incentive. We're saying we will reinstate the peace process as it stood in the advanced stage it was at, with a lot of work done, we will reinstate that. We will talk to Gerry Adams....(interruption)...we will reinstate the peace process. We are saying to Sinn Fein, we will reinstate the peace process at the stage that it was at, if you will...we'll talk to you, if you will get the IRA to say: "no, we don't believe killing people is the way to persuade people. Persuasion should rely on argument, not on violence. HUMPHRYS: So what you're talking about is quite literally picking up where you left off. You would go back to them with this proposal for Dayton (sic) style talks, getting the parties together even if they're not literally talking to each other. BRUTON: We believe that that is the way forward. We regret deeply, as I say there's no moral equivalent between political mistakes and violence. We regret deeply the lack of generosity of the Unionist Community over the last sixteen months. The fact that they wouldn't even talk to the Irish Government, in a process, a twin track process agreed by their own government. The fact that they refused over the sixteen or seventeen months to sit in the same room with Sinn Fein, even to ask Sinn Fein about Sinn Fein's commitment to the Mitchell principles. The Unionists wouldn't even sit with them to discuss that. That was a mistake by the Unionists. A serious mistake from a Unionist point of view, given that the Unionists had the assurance that the constitutionist status of Northern Ireland would not be changed without majority support. Given that they had that reassurance, they had nothing to fear from talking to Sinn Fein and it's very important while making it clear that violence is wrong in all circumstances that we should be constructive enough and humble enough to learn from mistakes that were made in the past, rectify those mistakes so that we can return, reinforced to the path of peace. HUMPHRYS: But you see, even at this stage, you're going down a different road to the British Government because what we've been hearing from Sir Patrick Mayhew and his people, consistently over the last forty-eight hours, is the way forward is elections, not the path that you propose. So, even now there's this gap. BRUTON: I believe the idea of having an election of the kind suggested immediately after the resumption of violence would pour petrol on the flames. I think it would be a serious mistake. It would urge Sir Patrick not to pursue that path. To accept the advice of the Irish Government on this matter. HUMPHRYS: So you totally reject David Trimble's call, he repeated it just last night, for elections. BRUTON: Elections, let us remember, and you can see this because electioneering perhaps has even started in your own jurisdiction. Electioneering is about a contest, it's about doing down the other person in argument. There is enough conflict and division in Northern Ireland at the moment without adding to it. We don't need a contest, we need compromise. That's why our suggestion, Dick Spring's suggestion, of getting people together in the one building, even if they wouldn't talk to one another directly, even though they should, and having them convenient to one another so that gradually trust could be built up. That's the way forward. Certainly elections will come eventually as part of the process, we've no objection to elections but we want elections to take place in a condition wherein the contest will be about who can be the most generous to reinforce the peace, not the contest being about who can be the most intransigent in putting down their opponent. HUMPHRYS: But you've already made it quite clear that you would not expect people to sit around the table or indeed in next door rooms, in adjoining rooms, from people who are refusing to condemn people who go around murdering other people. So therefore we have this awful problem don't we. BRUTON: No, I must correct you. HUMPHRYS: I'm sorry, you didn't actually say that you insisted that they condemn but what you are... BRUTON: In fact I said that that's a cul de sac. It's a waste of time. HUMPHRYS: I take your point, but you are insisting that there must be a cessation of hostilities and that is something that Sinn Fein cannot guarantee. It fell apart on Friday night, we've seen what Sinn Fein can and cannot do here. BRUTON: I believe that Sinn Fein and the IRA, who are part of the Republican Movement, who represent a point of view, a very strongly held point of view, who represent people who have suffered immeasurably
over many years in Northern Ireland. I believe that they must change their mind and recognise that for their own people, peace, peaceful negotiation is the way forward, that they must recognise that notwithstanding the frustrations that go with political progress, notwithstanding the fact that sometimes you don't get your way in a democracy, that peaceful persuasion is the way to make progress. And the Irish Government and Irish America is willing to help them along that path so long as they do not use violence. There has to be that clear distinction, violence is not part of the armoury of a democratic politician working a democratic negotiation. HUMPHRYS But why do you believe that Sinn Fein can now deliver a cease-fire that has collapsed once already and over which they say they have no direct influence. What makes you believe they can do that? Or does it merely take from them, does it merely take from them the assurance that they will try - is that going to be enough for you? BRUTON: We want the violence to stop. Words are easy to use. Actions are easier to measure. We want the violence to stop. We're absolutely unambiguous on that. We want the violence to stop. Then we can have negotiation. What democratic politicians can do in the meantime is show that if the violence does stop, that a proper democratic mechanism - not a divisive mechanism, but an inclusive mechanism - is being created, will be agreed to by all the participants and that when the violence stops, there will be a ready-made democratic process into which the Republican movement can take part, in which the Republican movement can take part. That's what the Democrats can do now, to create the conditions to show that there is a ready-made way of moving forward, and that's what I want the Unionists to do, that's what I want the British Government to do along with us, create that vehicle for peaceful progress, an agreed vehicle in which everybody is willing to travel. Then we will be in a position to say to Sinn Fein "look here is a way forward". Violence, anyway, whether that is the case of not it not a way forward and that is what I say to Sinn Fein "use your influence, you are able to speak authoritively on behalf of the IRA. You are able to speak authoritively to the IRA. Speak to them now and say to them - killing people does not serve your people, it doesn't serve your cause, it is inconsistent with being a Democrat. Prove your democratic credentials by getting the IRA to stop the violence. HUMPHRYS: Do you believe Prime Minister, do you believe that Sinn Fein can deliver the IRA and another cease-fire? BRUTON: I believe that the Republican movement as a unit - composed as it is of Sinn Fein and the IRA - can together stop the violence. If they made the decision to start the violence, they can equally make a decision to stop it. HUMPHRYS: Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.