................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.10.95
................................................................................ HUMPHRYS: And, now to that other conference - across the water. Sinn Fein met only twenty four hours after the IRA had issued a very hardline statement: forget about getting rid of our weapons; that's ludicrous. That put a lot of pressure on Gerry Adams, the Nationalist most identified with the peace process. I'll be talking to him in a few minutes but first Laura Trevelyan asks what room for manoeuvre Mr. Adams truly has. ******* HUMPHRYS: So Gerry Adams, we have a deadlock in the peace process, we also have a number of suggestions as to how you might get around or over that, let's have a look first at the notion of a Northern Ireland Assembly of which it seems the Irish Government approves. Why not?, why not take part in a Northern Ireland Assembly and then you'd be able to talk to the Unionists as you wanted? GERRY ADAMS: Well first of all John, if I can set the record straight in your very revisionist history of the peace process. This peace process started some long time ago and culminated fourteen months ago in the IRA taking an historically generous initiative. It called the complete cessation of military operations. It did so on the basis that there was an opportunity at that time to build peace. Now for the last fourteen months we have had the IRA's guns silenced, the Loyalists were also persuaded, although they continued with some activity, but the Loyalists were also persuaded to silence their guns. This new precondition is exactly that. It is a new precondition brought on to the agenda by the British. HUMPHRYS: Yes but you're answering a question that I didn't ask you. ADAMS: But I'm sorry, I mean people in this country are very rarely informed fully of the situation in Ireland. David Trimble, for example, has said that he will not be involved in talks with Sinn Fein unless the IRA disband and are totally disarmed in a ... way. HUMPHRYS: But, on the other hand, we have this suggestion that there could be some sort of Northern Ireland Assembly in which you might take part. Now, why not say: what have you got to lose by saying: alright, we will do that? ADAMS: Well, first of all, if there are Elections called, of course, Sinn Fein will contest those elections, along with the other Parties. But, both governments - the British government and the Irish government, the SDLP and ourselves and, I think, also, the Unionists have recognised that an internal settlement is not a solution, that we can't go back to the old Stormont days. HUMPHRYS: It wouldn't be the old Stormont, would it? ADAMS: I'm sorry, no, please, please let me finish because David Trimble also said: let Sinn Fein go and get a mandate. Sinn Fein have a mandate and that's what we're seeking to bring to the negotiating table and your reporter said that this demand for decommission was preventing Sinn Fein from coming to All Party talks. That isn't accurate. His demand is preventing the Irish Government, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and all the other Parties from coming to All Party talks. HUMPHRYS: Then if you have that mandate, there's no reason at all why you shouldn't test it again at the Polls? ADAMS: I don't have any problem testing our mandate. None at all. HUMPHRYS: So, Okay. It is .. a real possibility that you could have elections to a Northern Ireland Assembly, in which you would take part and then you will be able to sit down and use that as the forum for talking to the Unionists? ADAMS: John, John, we have discussions now with the Unionists in councils all over the North and we got that by having to take about ten Court injunctions, to get the Unionists to recognise the rights of voters. Sinn Fein is..now receives the largest number of votes in Belfast City. We had to bring the Unionists to Court to get Catholic children in Ballymurphy the right to a playground. So, let's not go into very long and diversionary distractions. What we need is without preconditions whatsoever.... HUMPHRYS: I don't know why it's diversionary. I mean, it was something that you heard the Dublin government there saying: ... ADAMS: ....well I heard the leader of one of the coalition Parties, who's engaged law and political opportunism more than anything else, saying he's interested in that idea and I mean what I want to focus in on is the need for inclusive dialogue, without preconditions. Now, why fourteen months into this end of hostilities - and the British have yet to call an end to hostilities - why two or three years into this peace process has there not been a coming together of all the political Parties. Sorry, John, please, I could put preconditions upon David Trimble. I could put preconditions upon John Major, Members of my Party - those who vote for our Party, supporters of our Party - have been killed and injured as a result of the activities of Unionist death squads and as a result of the activities of the British Army. I don't want to do that. I want to move forward, to make sure that none of those things ever happen again. HUMPHRYS: Let me offer you another suggestion as to how you might do that. The IRA has said absolutely no question of handing over weapons at this stage. Now, what about the suggestion that the Commission, the Independent Commission - perhaps, chaired by an American Senator is set up and that as you enter into discussions with that Commission, the IRA hands over some of its weapons. Now, do you think that that makes sense? Looking at it from your position. ADAMS: Well, first of all, can I tell you - and I said this six months ago - Sinn Fein has no room, whatsover to manoeuvre on this issue. There are six armed groups in this situation. HUMPHRYS: Can I just.... ADAMS: Excuse me just John... HUMPHRYS: I'd just like to clarify this because I'm not asking you whether you've got any weapons. I don't want to get into that debate what I'm saying is... ADAMS: But you have to let me talk you see if you want me...you know... HUMPHRYS: But, I'm trying to.... ADAMS: You could, perhaps, do the interview without me. Then, you wouldn't have to ask me any questions at all. HUMPHRYS: No. I'm genuinely trying to be helpful here. If you have those six groups watching this programme, listening to what you have to say, it might, might it not, be helpful for you to say 'I, Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, think that's not a bad idea." ADAMS: Well, whatever I think about the situation, the problem is that we will not get into All Party talks according to the British Government unless a group over which Sinn Fein has no control, over which the SDLP has no control, over which the Irish Government has no control, unless that group surrenders its weapons. HUMPHRYS: You have influence. ADAMS: And what the British Government are trying to do is to almost subvert this peace process. In my view, because militarists who fought in Ireland, or who were in charge of a war policy in Ireland for twenty-five years are still seeking to win some sort of outdated and unviable and unachievable military victory. What we want to do is to build peace. Now, obviously, disarmament..a disarmament of all the groups, the disbandment of all the armed groups, a total demilitarisation of the situation is an objective of the peace process. It's an achievable one, in my view. But what we have had here for the last number of months is a very achievable and necessary objective being turned into an obstacle and if we can't get into talks then we can't make peace. HUMPHRYS: And what I'm offering you here is this suggestion of one way around that, that is to say that you, given that you don't have the weapons at your immediate disposal - I take your point about that because you make it very many times - but you are in a position as leader of Sinn Fein to say: look, I think this isn't a bad idea. Let's have that commission and then maybe I think it would be very helpful if the IRA were to give up its weapons or some of its weapons at the door to the Commission. ADAMS: Well I think and I've been told by many others wiser than I, that politics is the art of the possible. We persuaded people who were engaged in armed struggle to cease their armed struggle. HUMPHRYS: Well, there you are. You can persuade them in other directions as well. ADAMS: No. Excuse me. That requires the two main sides in this conflict because it's an Anglo-Irish conflict. The British and their allies and the Loyalist section of our people and the Republicans and Nationalists. That requires both those groups to be prepared to come to the table to make peace. Now, in the last fourteen months, we have seen the British retaining military strength at the same level as it was in 1992. We have seen no movement on prisoners and here in Britain we have seen conditions for Irish prisoners deteriorating. We have seen Orange Marchers being forced through Catholic areas, where they weren't welcome; we have seen no attempt to even address the issue of policing - which is a very vexed issue. We've seen repressive legislation reimposed by the British and we aren't even addressing the issues about the future. You talked earlier about the need for a new Britain. Now, why can't we have a new Ireland? Why can't the British Government and you, as interviewer in this situation appear to be attempting to play the role of a broker, which is okay for an interviewer but it isn't OK for your Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: Well what I'm doing is offering you suggestions and trying to gauge your reaction, your response to those questions? ADAMS: But, you're offering me suggestions which are aimed at processing a British precondition which ... HUMPHRYS: But then other questions will be asked of the British Government and are constantly being asked of the British government. Right now, you are there. ADAMS: I would love, John, to listen to your programme next week and to hear John Major - and you talked to John Prescott about everything but the question of Ireland - to hear the British Labour Party leadership asked is it going to squander this unprecedented opportunity for peace? HUMPHRYS: We have asked both parties many times...
... but right now it's you sitting there and you're the Leader of Sinn Fein and that's why I'm putting these points to you. And, one other, if I may, before wemove on. This other suggestion that the IRA, as it were, should declare 'no first use' - the Unionist paramilitaries have done that, why should not the IRA do that? Do you think that might be a helpful idea? ADAMS: Well, I think the IRA did almost fourteen months ago. HUMPHRYS: No. I used the word 'permanent'. ADAMS: Excuse me. Look, I want to answer this question in two ways, if I may. First of all, the Loyalists are still arming - that's first of all. Secondly, a large percentage of the weapons that they have were given to them by British military intelligence; secondly, I meet RUC men in areas where they are most unwelcome. Now, if the British Prime Minister is prepared to have enough confidence in the IRA to put his policemen in those hostile areas, then he should have the courage to enter into talks. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble has said: if you've got any new suggestions to regenerate, revitalise this peace process he'd like to hear them. In thirty seconds, have you got one? ADAMS: Well, let David Trimble stop talking at me and start talking to me and between the two of us and all the other Parties involved, we'll find a way out of this impasse. Let David Trimble keep saying: not an inch, no surrender, echoing the rhetoric of the British Prime Minister, then the peace process remains in considerable difficulty. HUMPHRYS: But at the moment, it looks deadlocked, eh? ADAMS: Because the British Government are refusing to move. HUMPHRYS: Gerry Adams, thanks very much. ADAMS: Thank you John. ...oooOOOooo...