............................................................................... ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 19.2.95 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, on the basis of what you know about the framework document, it appears that you know quite a lot, are you prepared to enter into talks? DAVID TRIMBLE: Well what we know about the framework document comes from leaks, mainly from the Dublin press and also the indications given to us by the Prime Minister on Tuesday. The situation may have changed since then but on the basis of what we were told on Tuesday, we then, as you know, wrote to the Prime Minister and said that we did not see in what he had said, a basis for inter-party talks, so that we cannot see ourselves as at present advised, entering into the cage that the framework document appears to us to be. That doesn't mean that we won't talk to the government, that we won't try and explain to Mr. Major where he has made a mistake and that we won't try and and lay out before him a more positive path to take. HUMPHRYS: But you will not talk, and I emphasis this bit, because this is the key to it in many people's mind, you will not talk on the basis of that framework document? TRIMBLE: If it turns out to be what we expect it to be, and if it contains the proposals, particularly with regard to the all-Ireland political body, to which we have consistently for months, told the government is not acceptable, if it is going to try and push through something which we have told them is quite unacceptable, well we're not going to start talking on that basis. You know, one of the funny things about Tuesday's meeting and myself and my two colleagues remarked on this afterwards. HUMPHRYS: The meeting with the Prime Minister? TRIMBLE: Yes. One of the funny things about it, and we looked at it afterwards, looking at it from a Unionist point of view, it was all stick and no carrot, and we find it strange that the government hadn't anything to put on the table that might have been attractive or might have represented the views of the greater number of the people of Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: And yet you were talking earlier this morning about regarding the framework document, and being encouraged by the government to regard the framework document as a sort of consultation document, something about which you would talk.... TRIMBLE: No Peter, I wasn't. HUMPHRYS: John - sorry I don't know which programme you think you're on, but anyway...(laughter)... TRIMBLE: Look there's a very curious thing here, and I think it's worth drawing out. That the government says two quite different things about the framework document, every now and again it says it's a matter for consultation, and then on the other hand it says to us that we should judge the package as a whole. Now something that has to be judged as a package as a whole is something that you will have to take or leave, that you have to make a decision on, something that's not open for change. There's an inconsistency here, and when you consider that it's been six months intensive negotiation and the hours they spent in Dublin, yesterday, and the hours they spent in Belfast earlier in the week and all the rest of it, and you ask yourself, is this really going to change, and knowing also as we know, that it's very tightly drafted and does not appear to give any room for manoeuvre, then it isn't really a consultative document. Now if it was a consultative document, if it was purely consultative, and if it was one consultative document that you could look at together with other documents, then that might be a different matter, and if we were in a position to broaden the agenda so that it included the things that the greater number of people in Northern Ireland are interested in, and gave us a basis then to move forward, that would be a different thing, but at the moment there's no sign that it is. HUMPHRYS: Right, so the message coming from the government, quite clearly, is that this is in effect a blueprint, that you said has been drawn up over a period of six months, some would say it's been going on for two years, between civil servants and indeed ministers, and this is what two sovereign governments have agreed is the blueprint for the future of Northern Ireland. On that basis you are saying it is inconceivable that we will negotiate with any other parties, enter into talks with any other parties. TRIMBLE: We will talk, as I say, to the government about our own positive proposals. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but you've always been prepared to do that, there's nothing new about that. TRIMBLE: We've always been prepared to do that, we've also been prepared to meet occasionally with some other parties, again to explain our views and to seek a way forward on that basis, but if the framework document appears to us to be a cage containing proposals that we regard to be hostile to the existence of the union then obviously, we cannot go into it. HUMPHRYS: So let me be quite clear about this then, because I think there has been some confusion over this, partly because of what you said earlier this morning. If the document is as you expect it to be, and if the leaks that we saw of it last month, earlier this month, are right, then it is no deal, you will have nothing whatsoever to do with it, you will not even contemplate the possibility of all party talks. TRIMBLE: Well, I'll repeat what I've said, and what I said today is exactly what I said at the earlier interview, that we have our own agenda that we are prepared to talk about, but if the framework document comes in the form outlined to us on Tuesday, and that's a big IF, because it may change, it may have changed, over the course of the last fortnight, but if it comes in the form outlined to us last Tuesday, containing the proposals to which we have taken very grave exception, and consequently is as we see it, a cage, we won't go into it. HUMPHRYS: But there is an escape route here for you isn't there because there's nothing to stop you saying on the basis of what we are encouraged to believe by the British Government, nothing is set in stone, we can discuss this, it's a kind of a la carte menu, I mean, you can adopt that view? TRIMBLE: Well if it is an a la carte menu and again, the shape of the document will tell you that and the willingness of the Government to draw up an agenda that includes the views of other people rather than an agenda that is simply the framework document, will also show that, so that it will be possible for the public to see very clearly whether we have moved away from a prescriptive framework document that doesn't allow room for manoeuvre. HUMPHRYS: Right, but given that it is that latter a prescriptive document that doesn't allow room for manoeuvre, you are saying we will not deal with it, what then do you do? TRIMBLE: Well I've told you what we'll do, we will talk to the Government to try and persuade them that they are doing the wrong thing, we shall then.. HUMPHRYS: But you've done that for a very long time now? TRIMBLE: Yes, we will continue to do it and we'll show to them by not going in to talk on the basis of a prescriptive document that doesn't give us room for manoeuvre, we will show them by doing so that they have gone down the wrong road and if the Government's words are to be believed that there are three locks and the first lock is that of the parties, then we will have turned the first lock and they will not be able to proceed if the Government is to be believed and then we will show them a better road. HUMPHRYS: And the better road is what? TRIMBLE: Well here I must ask you to wait and see, we'll be saying more about this I hope in the course of the coming week. HUMPHRYS: But it's pretty unlikely isn't it that you can produce something in the course of the coming week that you have failed to produce in the past twenty five years, or indeed, the past seventy years that's going to make the British Government say, oh we missed this, we've done all this work, we've for two years now we have been involved in intensive talks and we've come up with our own blueprint and now all of a sudden at the fifty nineth minute you say, we've got something new, unlikely isn't it? TRIMBLE: Well, maybe the best thing would be... for the Government to turn back to what it was doing earlier, because you've been talking about two years, actually this particular version of the framework document seems to us is the work of the last six months. HUMPHRYS: All right six months then. TRIMBLE: And if they were to turn back to other things and in one sense what you say is quite right, there is very little that's new, the framework document is introducing a form..or will try to introduce a form of joint authority and you can trace that back to the Nationalist forum of the early 1980's, you could even trace it back to an original SDLP proposal I think in 1972, so in that sense there is nothing new, but I think you will see that we have at least some novel approaches to bring forward in the course of this coming week. HUMPHRYS: You produce your novel approach and the Government says well yeah, that's fine and dandy, and of course we'll talk to you about that Mr. Trimble, I mean it's jolly interesting and we'll have these bilateral talks, but in the meantime of course, this blueprint stays on the table and that is the basis because it's an agreement that has been reached
between two sovereign Governments after a great deal of work and we believe - because they've made this absolutely clear - we believe this is what will appeal to the people of Northern Ireland. TRIMBLE: Well now there's some interesting points there because when you refer to it being an agreement between two sovereign Governments, that raises a very interesting question - is it a treaty? You see in the last few days we've had..suddenly had for no apparent reason, denials eminating from the Government that the frameowrk document is a treaty and I find that curious, then the approach that you are suggesting involves what I believe some government ministers at one stage and maybe even still intend to do namely, as one minister said not so long ago, that he was going to call the Unionist bluff and force them in to accepting this, well now that, as Jim Molyneaux said in the House of Commons on Thursday, it's a very dangerous tactic, it's been tried before and failed and it will fail again, and I think you'll find that the greater..that the Conservative Party in Parliament and in the country will be extremely upset to see a Government turing on people that they regarded as their allies and forcing them in to all Ireland political institutions against their will. HUMPHRYS: You say it's been tried before and failed but you would agree, you've said so yourself that in many respects the history of the past twenty five years shows British Governments moving further and further away from the Union and the reality is they will say they have presumably made this calculation for themselves but you may talk about locks, the political parties being one of them but the truth is you don't have anywhere else to go now? TRIMBLE: Well, that's not actually true, but I'm not going to go into hypothetical situations. HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm not dealing in hypotheticals here. TRIMBLE: And you have said how over the past twenty-five years British governments have tended to compromise on the Union in the belief that they'll get peace but they've always failed. They've failed to get peace because they haven't assuaged the Republican demands, and they've upset their own supporters. You know as Kipling put it a long time ago, if you pay the Danegeld you never get rid of the Dane, and concessions paid to terrorism has merely prolonged terrorism. I have ... HUMPHRYS: It stopped the fighting. Whatever they've paid or haven't paid, it has stopped the fighting. We have seen peace in Northern Ireland now since last August. TRIMBLE: We have seen a cessation of violence for five months, and last night we heard on our radios, repeated again this morning,t hreats by Mr Adams to resume the violence if he doesn't get his way. HUMPHRYS: Well, he wouldn't have put in those terms, but look... TRIMBLE: No but it was fairly clear. He said that the people who are complaining about the Unionist leadership he says is not interested in peace, because it's complaining about the proposals that have been brought forward, a very clear threat in that isn't there. HUMPHRYS: You yourselves cannot be seen to be walking away from peace can you? TRIMBLE: We will be doing our best to provide a genuine and permanent peace, but those who are simply surrendering to terrorist blackmail will not be providing peace. HUMPHRYS: And your problem is - you said earlier, is this a treaty or what is it? Let me tell you what Mr Ancram said: It represents - and you will have heard this of course - it represents the shared understanding of two governments of what is necessary and capable to do to command the consent of the Irish people. Now it is of the Northern Irish people, now that is absolutely clear, what they're saying in essence is, "If you the politicians don't like it, we can go over your heads because the Irish people, the people of Northern Ireland will like it". TRIMBLE: Well now that, you'll notice involves disregarding the promises and the undertakings given by government, but I'll leave that to one side. Mr Ancram is wrong, and that's what we've been saying to him. He has misjudged the situation. We're all in favour of trying to draw up proposals that will command consent. Our advice to him is that the proposals that he drew up and presented to us earlier this week will not command consent, and we are quite confident that we represent the views of the greater number of people on this issue. HUMPHRYS: But you don't have great legions at your command do you? What are you going to do..... TRIMBLE: We have the electoral support behind us and if the government is going to attach itself to the democratic principle and the principle of consent, then it will have to seek the consent of the people, and it has not yet endeavoured to do it, instead it is bringing forward a prescriptive blue-print and threatening us. HUMPHRYS: And in the meantime what will you do to threaten the government. Will you say for instance, guerrilla warfare in the Commons, will you say, we'll resign en masse from the House of Commons, will you say, we'll stage a campaign of civil disobedience? Which of those measures might you be able to enforce? TRIMBLE: Well, let us wait and see, let's not run too far ahead as to the particular measures that we're using, and I don't want to explore those because if I do people will regard that as deploying threats and we're not actually in the business of deploying threats. HUMPHRYS: But they're in the back of your minds. TRIMBLE: Well, we will consider the situation when we see what it is. I don't think it's wise to be too overly worked out in terms of how you might deal with one hypothetical situation or another, let us wait and see. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...