............................................................................... ON THE RECORD JACK STRAW INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.2.95 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Terry Dignan reporting there and with me now is Jack Straw, the Shadow Home Secretary and the Chairman of the Commission on Constitutional Reform. So you have a problem there Mr Straw and the way out seems to be that you give your regional assembly similar power to that of the Scottish parliament. JACK STRAW MP: Well let's start at the beginning shall we? I don't accept Terry Dignan's analysis either that this is a revolutionary set of proposals that we've got or the way which he puts the so called West Lothian question. The demand for changes in the way the British constitution currently operates comes from real practical concerns about the way in which the British Government over the last fifteen years particularly have centralised power in this country, right across the country, and have concentrated power both in Whitehall and in the hands of Quangos. Right across the country in the United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and in England there is deep anger about this, about the sense that people feel that control over their lives, what happens in the Health service, Education service, Further Education, all sorts of things is slipping away from them, that it's moved into private government. So that's a sort of universal view across the nation. Where there's differences is in terms of, if you like, the solutions and in Scotland and in Wales, or I think in Greater London there is I think a pretty substantial measure of agreement about what needs to be done. So far as the rest of the country is concerned that's something we'll look at no doubt we're going to ... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Yes well let's ... STRAW: But let me just make this point to get this out of the way. What we're concerned about is evolutionary change. There's no...the proposal for a Scottish parliament, it's something that's being discussed over a period of thirty years and refined. It was put to the Scottish people in a referendum and approved by them by the way, by a majority in late 1978 early 1979, it didn't meet an artificials for (phon) but it was approved by them, it's taken a long long time. Now on this, look do you want to deal with the West Lothian question, because that was a very artificial statement about that. HUMPHRYS: You tell me that the West Lothian question isn't as it was analysed there by Terry Dignan. Gordon Brown seems to think it is and he seems to think that the solution and many other of your colleagues as we saw some of them on that film seem to think that the solution lies in English regions. Now let's have a look at what you're going to do with the English regions. What powers will those assemblies in the English regions have. STRAW: What we're doing, we're involved at the moment in a consultation process. We spoke to the parliamentary party. Last Wednesday I was speaking to regional groups inside the parliamentary party and across the country, and I'm not going to tell you what's going to be in our consultative document John which is coming out in June, or in the manifesto which will come out at the General Election. But what we are trying to do is to answer a practical problem which, for example, Howard Davis (phon), the Director General of the Federation of British Industry, himself addressed in a speech which he gave last Tuesday. Now what did he say? He said "look the Government itself has already created an enormous tier of regional government in this country" but, use my phrase, not his, that's one of the great secrets of English politics. You'll never hear about this ... HUMPHRYS: Well we heard about it in that film. STRAW: Well very very briefly, very briefly indeed but it's a huge tier it employs thousands of people at the moment and it's grown. The Government itself at the last election said if you vote for us, we'll set up what they call integrated regional offices to coordinate the work of four departments. So you've got this very substantial tier of regional government through the regional offices, and also for example in the South West, through thirty five separate regional offices. So that's there, you've then got quangos running at a regional level, running things like the Health Service, Training Enterprise, things like that, coordinating that. And then you've got a sort of invention of a regional tier by local authorities and by businesses on a very ad hoc basis because there are functions of government which have to be maintained and run best at a regional level. Now let me just make this, we've got time, I think it's very important, that this is spelled out. So we see we're not parachuting into England with this invention of assemblies which have no argument for them. HUMPHRYS: Well assemblies is your word, your party's word not mine, I didn't make up that word. STRAW: No I understand that. What I'm trying to say is where does this proposal come from? And it doesn't originally derive as an answer to the West Lothian question as if we're foisting on people in England something they would otherwise not want. HUMPHRYS: Yes but Gordon Brown does seem to think that that is the answer to the West Lothian question. He made that perfectly clear. We saw him again on that film. STRAW: Yes if people watched what Gordon was saying, what he spoke about there was the offer of English regional government. HUMPHRYS: Let's remind people that Scottish parliament goes hand in hand with greater regional ... that's what he said. STRAW: No, it was the offer, well the word is very important. HUMPHRYS: Verbatim quote but anyway. STRAW: The word is very very important and it wasn't put there by accident because we want to achieve ... HUMPHRYS: Yes but I want to put this word offer you're using, what does it mean. You're saying to people in the regions, you can have one of these assemblies if you want, but if you don't, you don't have to. STRAW: It's a much more serious set of proposals than that and Tony Blair illustrated that in the interview... HUMPHRYS: Well let's try and look at what they are then because I think there is genuine confusion on the part ... STRAW: What I'm, of course let us look at what they are. What I'm trying to do is to explain to you John how we would get there. Let us look first of all at the problem that we're addressing and then say what's the solution in England, OK?. Now the problem in England, it's an English problem. The problem in England is there's been massive over centralisation, power moving away. HUMPHRYS: You explained that, I take that point. STRAW: And concentration of power in the hands of quangos, unelected bodies, unaccountable. HUMPHRYS: Indeed. STRAW: And also then local authorities and businesses trying to create their own regional structures to try and compensate for this over centralisation. Now that has led to very great concern in the regions, that these arrangements are not working properly. And Howard Davis during ... HUMPHRYS: As you say he drew attention ... STRAW: And what he said, there's centralisation has gone too far, there a real concern amongst businesses that there ought to be a shift back towards the regions. He also described the people running these integrated regional offices as prefects, his words... HUMPHRYS: Yes, OK STRAW: Well no it's not OK because none of that HUMPHRIES: Yes but you've explained this and I'm trying to move on from that you see. STRAW: None of that was brought out in the film. HUMPHRYS: Well the purpose of the film was to establish the problems that you face with the West Lothian question. You say that problem doesn't exist. There are others in your party including Gordon Brown who says it does. STRAW: I'm very happy to deal with that but just let me finish off the point about Howard Davis. What Howard said is the current arrangements really are very unsatisfactory. It's the government, the Conservatives who, in a sense, who've already started the hare of regional government out of the trap. He described it as a slippery slope for the government because they have accepted that there is a real problem at a regional level, that current arrangements are not working satisfactorily so they've set up these integrated regional offices but they're not working satisfactorily either. What Howard talked about was establishing a proper and coherent focus for the regions to speak out for their different areas. HUMPHRYS: Your policy isn't dictated by Howard Davis, however important and significant a fellow he may be. He's terribly important, but he he doesn't tell you what to do. And what I'm asking you about is your policy with the greatest of respect. STRAW: Sure. HUMPHRYS: You've told me a great deal about Howard Davis, I'd like to know what you think. Let me just ask you a question. Let us look at these regional councils and try to have some idea of the sorts of bodies they may or may not be. Will they have any powers to raise or lower taxes? That's a very simple direct question now. STRAW: They will not have ... HUMPHRYS: Right. Will they have any legislative powers over education? STRAW: They would not have legislative powers. What I'm doing here John is explaining to you the process by which they would be achieved. I've established I think, despite your resistance... HUMPHRYS: No resistance at all. STRAW: I've established the problem we're
dealing with is that there is already an extensive tier of English regional government which is undemocratic, unaccountable and secretive. That's accepted I think so there's then the issue, what do you do about that? Well we see this as a two stage process. HUMPHRYS: So you democratise them. STRAW: So the first stage is to democratise them. If you take regional health authorities. Government at the moment is putting through a bill to abolish regional health authorities altogether, but there'll still be a regional health function under a regional health prefect or gauleiter. Well you've got, in our judgement, to have some proper accountability and democracy in the running of the regional health function and we're consulting about how that should be done, whether you have it by an indirectly elected health authority, which would almost certainly be separate from another regional body to begin or what other process. We've also proposed that there should be a regional development agency in each region. That was put forward by Robin Cook in a policy paper he put forward about a year ago. It's achieved very substantial support including from the Trades Union Congress and from the CBI. There's then a question how do you appoint people to that regional development agency. HUMPHRYS: Appoint I thought you elect people. I thought that's what this was all about STRAW: Just a minute. How do you appoint people to that regional development agency? There's then the issue of the oversight of the integrated regional offices and then there's this question of a say in Europe. One of the reasons why Howard Davis was so concerned about the current arrangements is because the regions at the moment without any question are losing out in Europe, no question about that, under the government's arrangements. Regions are...individual towns, are losing cash so there's a case for the regions to be far better coordinated in terms of the say they have in Europe. What we say from that is that in the first stage, and what we're looking at and consulting about internally and then there'll be this policy document which we'll publish in June, is that there should be a new regional focus, much more coherent regional focus which would deal with economic planning, industrial planning, economic development, transport, land use planning, and also coordinate the work of the integrated regional offices. HUMPHRYS: Regional focus, but what there will not be is an elected authority, assembly, parliament, call it what you will for each region. There will not be that. STRAW: There is a two-stage process we are looking at here. First of all, it has never been, never ever in a million years, been part of Labour's plans for there to be regional parliaments with tax raising powers. HUMPHRYS: Well look I've got your document here - Renewing Democracy, STRAW: I've read it. HUMPHRYS: Of course you've read it. You probably wrote it! Renewing Democracy, Rebuilding Communities. And it says here quite clearly on page four: "Labour believes we should provide for an elected authority for each English region. Now that's...that was published a few days ago. STRAW: Yes we do. But what we are looking at in much more detail is the process by which you achieve that with a degree of concensus. HUMPHRYS: But that is your intention? There is absolutely no question that when we have your manifesto that's going to be in it? STRAW: I can't speak for what's going to be in the manifesto, let me make that clear, okay? What we're doing at the moment is consulting very carefully about how these changes are agreed and ... HUMPHRYS: You've been talking about this for six years, you know. You've had a long time to think about it. STRAW: This is set against a back... yes, but there's one, for example, very major change that's occurred which without any question extends the timescale here. When we developed our plans between '92 and '93 there was the clearest expectation that there would be a unitary system of government at local level right across the country. The shire counties would be abolished, without any question. That was our expectation, it was also the government's intention and they gave an instruction to that effect to the Banham Commission on local government. Now, owing to most extraordinary incompetence and inconsistency of approach by this commission we have now got a situation where of thirty nine shire counties only eight are going to have - even if the recommendation is accepted - no this is very important - only eight are going to have ... HUMPHRYS: Yes but you are telling me what happens. I'm trying to get you to talk about what will happen under a Labour government. You seem very reluctant to do that. STRAW: I'm explaining to you the problems that we now face which have intervened. There was an expectation that as a result of a Conservative change there would be unitary system of government right across the country - in all thirty nine shire counties as well as the six metropolitan areas and in London. Now, that's not going to be the case now and the one thing we've all been clear about in England is that you could not conceivably establish elected regional assemblies as well as having a tier of shire counties and districts underneath that. HUMPHRYS: Right so you are backing away then. Let's try and get this quite clear. You will move...the Labour Party is moving away from this idea of elected assemblies for the English regions which would have real powers. That is not at the moment on the agenda as far as you are concerned. STRAW: It's certainly on the agenda and we will put forward detailed ideas about it when the consultative document is published but... HUMPHRYS: It is on the agenda. STRAW: Just a second. But what is clear is that the timescale in which that could take place is longer than had previously been anticipated. HUMPHRYS: OK so it's not going to happen ... STRAW: And not least because of the inconsistency of approach of the Banham Commission, the fact that of thirty nine shire counties only eight are going to have anything like unitary districts within them. HUMPHRYS: Well let me suggest a problem to you then in that case, if you say that's not on the immediate agenda because that's all going to take time and it's going to be - for reasons you've explained very fully - extremely difficult to do. This is where the West Lothian question rears its ugly head for you. Clearly the sorts of regional assemblies for England that you are talking about, or not talking about, are not going to answer the West Lothian question - a question which does exist and which many people in your party regard as terribly serious. So you do have this problem, don't you? You've got to deal with it somehow. STRAW: Let me deal with it, with the West Lothian question. First of all, there has never been symmetry in the arrangements between England and Scotland. The assumption behind those who simplistically say here's the West Lothian question...Let me finish - otherwise I shall have to write to Mr Birt. HUMPHRYS: (Laughing) A low blow, if I may say so. STRAW: A very low blow, but I was only three words into the answer before you... HUMPHRYS: I was trying to get you to clarify. STRAW: Well I am clarifying the situation. The assumption behind those who parrot the West Lothian question is that there has always been complete symmetry in the arrangements between England and Scotland. This isn't the case. Scotland has its own legal system and effectively that is being controlled by Scotland and by Scots - not by England. It's got its own educational system and even through the Eighties the Scots were following a quite different educational agenda. For example, on credability of testing. HUMPHRYS: All that was agreed by a British Parliament. (Unintelligible because both talking together) STRAW: Of course and under devolution we are talking not about a transfer of sovereignties - this is the crucial answer to the West Lothian question - but a transfer of power and to quote Gordon Brown again from the speech - but part of it which you didn't mention: "Power devolved is power retained." This is not establishing a federal system, not for a moment. We are establishing a process by which a good deal of power which currently in practice is not actually retained by the Westminster Parliament but is exercised unaccountably by the Scottish Secretary of State and Scottish quangos is transferred to a Scottish Parliament. But the Westminster Parliament would remain and continue to be sovereign. All the powers of the Scottish Parliament would derive from that. HUMPHRYS: But let's put this in terribly simple terms. An English voter, an English voter, or indeed a Welsh voter for the purpose of this, is not going to like the idea that a Scottish MP can vote on his affairs. But what's going to happen is that an English MP - Scottish MPs can put up their own tax, lower the tax, threepence either way, that's your plan - English MPs can't vote on theirs but Scottish MPs can vote on his. You see there is a colossal problem here and people will say very simply "It's not fair!" STRAW: I think people will understand the fairness of it. What they understand at the moment is how incredibly unfair, if you like, the West Lewisham question is ... rather, the West Lothian question, because the reverse has happened. Let's take the Scottish poll tax. There is an issue domestic to Scotland which English Tory MPs forced on Scotland before the '87 General Election against huge popular hostility in Scotland. It's all very well Michael Heseltine later coming out and opposing the poll tax in England. He was silent on the poll tax in Scotland, they didn't bother about...the English Tory MPs weren't bothered about the Scots. It's almost as if the Scots are some sort of colony: We won't worry about what happens up there. This is where this issue of symmetry - or its lack of it - arises. Time and again what is fuelling the concern in Scotland for a degree of devolution, of control over people's lives is that people in Scotland - of all parties - have seen, in a sense, foreign propositions forced on them by English Conservative Members of Parliament. HUMPHRYS: Look, for there to be fundamental reform of the constitution - and this is a fundamental change, you wouldn't deny that for a moment - there has to be a consensus. Some sort of national consensus. Now, Mr Major has made it perfectly clear - the Conservative Party has made it perfectly clear - that if you push these changes through, and let us assume you have one parliament and then you are thrown out and Mr Major again, possibly, takes over... STRAW: I doubt that's the case... HUMPHRYS: Well you may doubt it but other people may think it's a reasonable proposition, he is going to make changes of his own then. He is going to reduce the number of MPs in Scotland to balance this up because there has to be an element of symmetry. That's what happened in Ulster - something to which you refer in your own documents. Now, that's a danger for you. That's a serious problem but it is one way out. STRAW: Well I find Mr Major's position now very curious. Mr Major stood in 1974... HUMPHRYS: But it doesn't matter how you find it, that's what he's going to do, he said so and that's why the problem is a real one. STRAW: You can't just change the composition of the Commons by edict in the way in which you are suggesting. HUMPHRYS: One of your own MPs thinks that entirely acceptable and understandable - McKinley, Mr McKinley. STRAW: Of course these changes have to be based upon very substantial consent. There's no question about that. And it's very, very interesting that in 1974 when the Conservatives, John Major, Ian Laing, all the rest of them, were putting forward their own proposals for a Scottish assembly with virtually the same degree of powers except over tax - and after all Parish Councils can raise taxes in the same way as other bodies can, so it's scarcely a major constitutional shift - there was no suggestion that the number of Members of Parliament should be reduced. Neither - let's be clear about this - in all the proposals for devolution to an Irish assembly in the North of Ireland are there any proposals for the current number of seventeen Members of Parliament to be cut by Mr Major. So the inconsistency is not ours... HUMPHRYS: But Mr Major is making it absolutely clear that that is what he will do if you push through these changes in the way that you propose, so you've got to take account of that because you've accepted there has to be a national consensus. There isn't a national consensus. STRAW: Of course there has to be a national consensus and the reason why I am engaged at the moment in a very careful process of consultation within the Labour Party and with many others, including Federation of British Industry, is to ensure that the changes that we bring in in terms of the constitution do have a proper foundation within the nation. And that's why, for example, over the process to achieve English regional assemblies we will take our time. We are not going to foist these on areas that do not want them. We do believe unquestionably that across the country there is now a demand - without any question - for a democratisation and improvement in the accountability of the existing system of English regional government which is extensive but unaccountable. HUMPHRYS: A very weak version of English regional government which isn't going to deal with the problem. That's the difficulty. STRAW: There is never going to be - even once we have achieved a situation of English regional assemblies - never going to bee complete symmetry between those assemblies and a Scottish parliament. HUMPHRYS: Not complete symmetry but a lot more than your suggestion in this programme today. There has been a considerable running back, hasn't there. STRAW: There was never going to be that. The Scottish parliament would have legislative control over various domestic issues - education, health, local government and so on, within Scotland. It would have a power not just to raise tax, by the way, but also to lower tax within the Scottish domestic area. Now that's never been on the agenda for the English regions nor, let me say, has it been on the agenda for Welsh assembly either. It would have a high degree of devolution but not a tax raising power. HUMPHRYS: Right, so the regions aren't going to be the answer to the West Lothian question. What you do in the regions is not going to be the answer to the West Lothian question. What's going to happen to you then in the next parliament - if it's a Tory parliament - is the number of Scottish MPs will be cut. STRAW: The constitutional answer to the West Lothian question is that we are not here transferring sovereignty we are transferring power and as Gordon Brown, just to repeat the point, said: "Power transferred or devolved is power retained." Those powers could in theory be taken back and if the Conservatives got a majority in Scotland they would be able to do that. What we are doing here is saying right across the United Kingdom there is really serious anger about the current way in which the government of Britain operates and we are seeking to secure changes which are sensible in each of the countries and regions of the country. HUMPHRYS: Jack Straw, thank you very much.