................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 26.2.95 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Northern Ireland. The nine Ulster Unionist MP's in the House of Commons have the power to bring down the government. They haven't exercised that power because there's been a pact between them and the Tories. Now there's no pact ... no deal, because the Unionists believe they've been sold down the river with the framework document on the future of Ulster. Willie Ross is one of the most senior Ulster Unionist
MP's. Many believe he will take over the leadership when James Molyneaux retire. JOHN HUMPRHYS: Mr Ross, good afternoon. WILLIAM ROSS: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: You've been talking very tough in the past few days, the members of your party. But the truth is, the government has actually called your bluff, and there isn't very much you can do about it, is there? ROSS: Well, first of all let me make it perfectly plain that your initial remark was inaccurate. We do not have the power to bring down this government. They still have an overall majority of Conservatives in the House of Commons. HUMPHRYS: That is true, but there are many whipless MP's, if they vote against, you vote against, the government's in trouble. ROSS: Well, of course, that is correct yes, but I mean we didn't bring that situation about, the government decided quite clearly to bring an end to the general understanding which we had with them. HUMPHRYS: But the main point that I was making there, is that they had effectively called your bluff, they've said "we're going to do this, you don't want us to do it, we're going to do it, and that's that", and the truth is now, however much you may huff and puff about it, there really isn't very much in reality you can do, is there? ROSS: Well, the reality is of course that we believe the government has been very sadly misled and many of the things which it has put in the framework document, in fact I've been through it twice now, and I can't see a single solitary Unionist thing within it. All that I see within it is a very heavy pressure being put upon the Unionist politicians to say yes we are going into a united Ireland, and quite frankly, Mr Humphrys, the Unionist population of Northern Ireland is not so inclined, and neither am I. HUMPHRYS: But you're not going to have a great deal of choice when push comes to shove, are you, that's the point I'm trying to make? ROSS: But the Prime Minister has made it perfectly plain time and time again that there is a three fold lock. He said that the parties can say no, he said that the people of Northern Ireland can say no in the referendum, he said that parliament can say so, and as far as my understanding goes, at least two parties of Northern Ireland, ourselves and the Democratic Unionist Party, have indicated that the document published on Wednesday does not provide a sound basis for the future governments of Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: Are you going to say no to the government this week, when you have a vote, and an opportunity to show what you feel about them? ROSS: Well, as it happens, two of my colleagues were missing at the party meeting this week. We will have an opportunity to discuss these matters on Wednesday evening, before the vote takes place and during the debate, and after we've heard what the Prime Minister has to say, and we will make a final decision at that point. HUMPHRYS: Is it conceivable that you could vote with a government whom you say has betrayed Ulster, betrayed your own party? ROSS: I think that it would be very difficult indeed for us to do that in these circumstances, but may I point out that this vote is not about Northern Ireland, this particular motion has been put down by the Labour Party, perhaps genuinely, perhaps just for political mischief, and they are having a debate on Europe and how the government is handling it's European policy. So no doubt the sceptics in the Conservative Party will make their views clear as well. HUMPHRYS: But what this vote will do is give you an opportunity to help, to force a vote of confidence in the government. Is it not inconceivable that you should turn down that opportunity, given what, you have made it clear, you feel about the government? ROSS: Well, our view of the government's policy is perfectly plain, and the party leader Mr Molyneaux has made our view perfectly plain, that we believe that so long as the government is pursuing a policy which is helpful to the Union, we would not bring that government to an end. Quite clearly we believe that this government is not pursuing such a policy. HUMPHRYS: So there's only one logical conclusion to draw from that isn't there? ROSS: Well, yes there is, I suppose, if you want to put it that way, but sure we never know what might happen between now and Wednesday, we don't know what the sceptics are going to do, if I was asked to make a forecast I would say that the government is almost certain to win the vote on Wednesday night because I have noticed what is being said by sceptics, one or two sceptics in Great Britain, that it's quite clear that the oldest political game in the world is being played, which as you only vote against your own government when you are quite certain they're not going to lose. HUMPHRYS: But you're making it quite clear that they will not win with your help? ROSS: Well, the reality is that there are nine Ulster Unionists, whenever you double that to eighteen as we shift from one side of the question to the other, then the government has made up it's mind that it can dispense with eighteen votes on at least a number of questions which will come before the House of Commons. HUMPHRYS: Right, so you have made up your minds, effectively and, as you say, there is going to be another meeting later this week, but effectively, you've made up your minds. ROSS: What I have said is that we will meet and discuss it on Wednesday, as we will meet and discuss before any other such decisions that might have to be made. You see, Mr Humphrys, the reality is that the government has now managed to get them presenting a much more delicate position than that which they occupied this day week, and I believe that as it becomes apparent that the government is no longer stable, that there is a certain amount of instability in the governments of the United Kingdom, that that will have all sorts of shocks through society, and not least I would have thought in the City of London, and given what you were talking about earlier about the bank, the Investment Bank, I think that there is a series of problems now arising from the government which might not have been foreseen a week ago. HUMPHRYS: It sounds as though you have effectively now written off the Conservative government. ROSS: Oh, I never write off any Conservative government, I have seen many changes and chopping about in government policy over the years, I expect to see quite a few more in the coming weeks and months. HUMPHRYS: There's nowhere else you can go now, is there, really, short of conspiring one way or the other to bring down this government and hope that you might get some sort of better deal with the Labour government. There really isn't very much else you can do now, is there? ROSS: Well, the reality is that the Unionists'
case I believe is absolutely watertight. We've never properly understood, I believe it will find increasing support in the House of Commons over the coming weeks, and indeed I was very gratified by the attitude of many Conservative back benchers whenever we explained our position and the reasons why we were not happy with the framework documents. HUMPHRYS: You say a watertight case, it may or may not be a watertight case, but it's been rejected by the government, they've made that absolutely plain. ROSS: And they have also left the way out open for everyone by saying that the parties can reject the framework document which...unless you are saying the words which the Prime Minister uttered on that issue are not worthy of consideration. Are we to believe that the Prime Minister said that the parties could reject it and then he's going to turn around and say: "Oh that's the first lock and I'm really not accepting that, I'm going to go to the second lock, then I'm going to go to the third lock, then we're going to have an election" and after the election could very well find in the Northern Ireland Assembly a group of people who are going to say well we're not going to operate this. I mean I think the whole thing has as many prickles on it as a cactus. HUMPHRYS: What is going to happen in truth, is that you are going to get involved in talks with the government at a fairly early stage aren't you. Now you will say we're talking about our own document, our own proposals but Sir Patrick Mayhew has made it clear, he made it clear again this morning that although you may, on the face of it, be talking about that, about your proposals, that will be a cover for the framework document. ROSS: Well if Sir Patrick Mayhew is saying that I can only say to the people of the United Kingdom, that he is making one of the most serious errors of judgement that it is possible for a senior politician to make - that is not the position. When the Unionist Party goes to talk to government about their proposals we will talk about our proposals and about them alone. The Unionist Party Executive Committee meet on Friday, they issued a statement repudiating any suggestion of taking part in discussions based on the framework documents. We are bound by that and indeed the parliamentary party has no difficulty at all in accepting that statement. HUMPHRYS: But the framework document will be sitting on that table won't it? ROSS: Well we'll no doubt have a waste paper basket close by. HUMPHRYS: But if you throw that document into the waste paper basket, where do you go from there? You see this is the problem, you come across all the time isn't it. Your proposals have effectively been rejected. The moment that framework document was published that was an end of it, the government knew what your agenda was, knew what you wanted, said it isn't good enough, this is our considered thought. ROSS: Well the government has - we are told - been considering these things for two years. Whenever I look at them I see a long line extending back for over twenty years. In that period of time, we have seen the Stormont Parliamentary system destroyed, we've seen changes in the police, we have seen the UDR created and replaced, we have seen endless political changes and constitutional changes, we have seen in 1985 under Margaret Thatcher's deal with Dublin, the statement that oh Dublin was going to make changes in Articles Two and Three, we're now being sold the same pig in a poke again. HUMPHRYS: But this is the whole point isn't it... ROSS: Just wait a minute until I finish. At the end of all these concessions to Irish Republicanism and Irish Nationalism we see them still saying none of that is good enough, we're only interested in an All Ireland republic and we don't give two hoots that where by far the greater number of people in Northern Ireland are totally against a United Ireland, voted against it consistently for fifty, sixty, seventy years. That this doesn't count, does democracy, the will of the people count for nothing in the United Kingdom anymore Mr Humphrys? - or, do we have a right to say no. HUMPHRYS: But you see that is exactly the point I made right at the start of this interview which is that the ratchet has been tightened every single stage of the process over the past twenty-five years has it not, and each time you the Ulster Unionists have lost, you've been flat footed by successive governments. ROSS: Well we have been overridden by successive governments, that is true. HUMPHRYS: Out-manoeuvred perhaps. ROSS: That then calls in question, the validity of the democratic process in the highest levels of government in the United Kingdom and it is something that I think the people of the United Kingdom should pay attention to and they should also give very careful attention to what the Prime Minister was saying in Scotland this week, where he in fact said that a devolution structure there would lead to separation, he is now insisting on the similar devolution structure in Northern Ireland. And don't forget that the people of Scotland, at one stage, did vote in favour of devolution and the government ignored that. HUMPHRYS: Well precisely. So what can you now do, if you can't fight you have to deal. ROSS: Well what do you mean we can't fight. I mean I think that people who believe that the Unionists are just going to roll over and go tamely into a United Ireland are living in a dream world. We have, I think, quite a lot of friends in the House of Commons, I think there are quite a lot of people in the Conservative Party who are deeply disturbed by this document and I have no doubt that as time passes between now and the next election that we will see a steady shift of opinion in our direction. HUMPHRYS: But you see I don't see that parades of anger down the Shankill Road, I don't see demonstrations outside Belfast City Hall, I don't see the Protestant people of Northern Ireland rising up against this document. ROSS: Well you did see that in 1985. HUMPHRYS: Well indeed that's ten years ago. ROSS: Oh yes and Sunningdale is twenty years and I've been in the House twenty-one years and the reality is that I haven't changed my opinion and do you think that the people of Northern Ireland have not changed theirs either. And the fact is that there have been no demonstrations in Northern Ireland because no-one has as yet organised them. Whether such demonstrations are organised or not is a matter to be considered. We may decide to take a completely different line because on this occasion, as you have already drawn people's attention to, the government's position in parliament is much weaker than it was the last time round. HUMPHRYS: So what you're saying is forget about civil disobedience campaigns or whatever it may be this time around, the fight will be waged in parliament but the truth there is that, as you yourself said right at the very beginning, actually there isn't an awful lot you can do even there, is there? ROSS: Well let's wait and see Mr Humphrys. Let's wait and see. No doubt you and I, or you and someone else will return to this on this programme in future weeks. HUMPHRYS: Willie Ross, thank you very much for joining us. ...oooOooo...